Kasparov vs. the World — Bulletin Board Archive

After 10.Nde2 Qe6!?

In an earlier post (Dummy) asked about 11.Nf4?! 

Here Black can play 11...Qxc4, for example 12.Nfd5 0-0 13.b3 Qc5, and 
if 14.Be3 (14.Na4 Qa5 15.Bd2 Qd8 maintaining an extra pawn for 
Black), Black has the beautiful queen sacrifice 14...Nxd5!! and now:

A) 15.Nxd5 Qa3 16.Rc1 (16.Bc1 Qa6! 17.Nc7 Qa5 18.Nxa8 Bxa1 19.Bd2 
Qxa2, and Black wins) 16...Qxa2 17.Rxc6 bxc6 18.Nxe7+ Kh8, is winning 
for Black; 

B) 15.exd5 Qxc3 16.Rc1 Qb2 17.Rc2 (17.dxc6 bxc6, is good for Black) 
17...Qa3 18.dxc6 bxc6, with a clear plus for Black; 

C) 15.Bxc5 Nxc3 16.Qe1 dxc5 17.Rc1 Nxa2 18.Rxc5 Rfd8, with a clear 
advantage for Black (three minor pieces and a pawn plus lots of 
control against a queen). 

Now returning to a line I analyzed last week with my trainers GM 
Giorgi Kacheshvili and GM Ron Henley:

10.Nde2 Qe6 11.Nd5 (11.Qb3 gives White nothing after either 11...0-0 
or 11...Rc8) 11...Qxe4 (forced, as the less direct 11...Rc8 allows 
12.f3 and White may consolidate his space) 12.Nc7+ Kd7 13.Nxa8 Qxc4 
14.Nb6+ axb6 15.Be3 - we are leaning towards the very actice 15...Ra8 
(15...Nd5 is also OK). White's queenside is pressured, Black's king 
is safe as there are no pawn breaks to attack it, and Black has the 
moreactive pieces. Giorgi and Ron concur with me that Black has the 
more pleasant prospects. The endgames look good for Black. At this 
time, after 9.Nxd4 Bg7 10.Nde2, I plan to recommend a move I have 
worked on for over a week - the novelty 10...Qe6.  

More to come, after 9.Nxd4 Bg7 10.Nde2 is played...

Irina

Several players have been looking at other moves, but I'll try to 
explain why we need to focus on just these moves for a while:

11.Nd5 is a highly forcing line, and there will be several forced 
moves in a row, so there will be at least a week or maybe two before 
we have to make any major decisions if Garry were to choose this 
line.  It does not make sense to try to analyse both lines at once, 
and several GM's and correspondence GM's were happy with the 
resulting positions for Black.  So let's only worry about this if and 
when Garry plays it.

Now after 11.Qb3 O-O is the logical choice, since 12.Qxb7 Rfc8 is 
nothing to worry about for Black - Black is attacking two pawns (e 
and c) and one of them must fall, breaking the Maroczy bind in the 
process.

So 12.Nf4 is the only way for White to try to maintain both his c- 
and e-pawns so that the Maroczy bind formation can be preserved.

After 12.Nf4 Qd7 is the most logical move.  Right now, White's 
greatest vulnerability is his c4 pawn.  With his Queen on b3, he 
cannot play b3 to protect it, and ...Na5 will attack both the queen 
and this pawn simultaneously.

In order to maximize this threat, Black will need to put a rook on 
c8, so it does not pay to put the Queen there - 12...Qc8?! 12.Nfd5 
and now the N on c6 cannot even move due to the forking Nxe7+.  This 
gives White time to shore up his c-pawn.

12...Qg4? as someone suggested is even worse.  After 13.Qxb7 White is 
threatening to play 14.f3 next covering everything.  White's king is 
still too well defended so there is no compensation for this pawn.

Finally, someone suggested 12...Nd4!?  This may be an interesting 
move to fall back on if 12...Qd7 looks good for White.  Again, we 
should look at 12...Qd7 first, but some ideas in this line are: 
12...Nd4 13.Qxb7 Qxc4 14.Qxe7 Rfe8 15.Qb7 (15.Qxd6?? Rad8 16.Qa3 Nc2) 
Nc2 16.Rb1 Nxe4 regains the pawn with a lot of activity for Black.

Better is, after 12...Nd4, 13.Nxe6 Nxb3 14.axb3 (14.Nxf8 or 14.Nxg7 
are met by 14...Nxa1, and the White knight is trapped while the Black 
knight can come back out via c2).  So after 14.axb3 fxe6 there are 
plusses and minuses for both sides, but it does not look so great for 
either, and we should only look to this in comparison to the worst 
White can do to us after 12...Qd7.

So let's start by looking at what White can play on move 13 after 
11.Qb3 O-O 12.Nf4 Qd7.  This is the logical thing to do until we get 
Garry's move.

15.Nc3 d5 

LINE 1) 16.Bg5 e6 17.Rc1 Rd8

LINE 2) 16.Be3 d4 17.Rc1 Rd8 (17...Nd5!?) 18.b3 Qa6 19.b4 Ke8 20.b5 
Qa8 21.bxc6 dxe3 22.cxb7 exf2+ 23.Kh1 Qxb7

LINE 3) 16.Na4 Kc7 17.Be3 Nd7 (17...d4?? 18.Rc1+-) 18.Rc1 (18.b3 Qh4 
19.Qxd5 Bxa1 20.Rxa1 e6 21.Qb5 Qb4!=) 18...Qxa2 19.Nc3 Bxc3 20.Rxc3 
Ra8 21.b4 Kd8

Irina

Kasparov vs. The World
World Team FAQ
Version: 7/13/99,Rev. 1
Compiled by MS Zone Member Al_Caldazar

I noticed a post on the MS bulletin board requesting that a FAQ be 
put together.  I too noticed that many of the same questions are 
being asked repeatedly, so here's my attempt at summing it all up.  
Corrections and additions are welcome of course.  Many of the 
comments made here are my opinion only, and do not necessarily 
reflect the opinion of the majority.

----------------------------------------------------------

Move list to as of 7/12/99 11:30PM PDT:

1. e4		c5            
2. Nf3		d6            
3. Bb5+		Bd7           
4. Bxd7+	                Qxd7          
5. c4		Nc6           
6. Nc3		Nf6           
7. O-O		g6            
8. d4		cxd4          
9. Nxd4		Bg7           
10. Nde2	                Qe6           
11. Nd5		Qxe4

General: The World Team, Black, has played a logical continuation of 
10... Qe6 with 11...  Qxe4, threatening to break Kasparov's pawn bind 
in the center, the White c4 and e4 pawns.  Meanwhile, with 11. Nd5, 
White has shown a threat of 12. Nc7+, forking Black's king and rook.  
PLEASE NOTE THAT THE 12. Nc7+ FORKING THREAT HAS NOT BEEN OVERLOOKED. 
 It is Black's intention to allow the forking threat, should White 
accept it, such as in:

12. Nc7+	       Kd7
13. Nxa8	       Qxc4

White's knight is now trapped on a8, and will fall to:

14...		Rxa8  (or a rook capture at a later time)
-or-
14. Nc7		Kxc7
-or-
14. Nb6+	               axb6

This line results in even material for both sides (two pawns and a 
knight are captured by Black, a rook is captured by white).  Black 
gains positional advantage in the center, lifting White's pawn bind.  
Black's position is hampered, however, by the fact the ability to 
castle is lost.  If the endgame is not brought about quickly, Black's 
centralized king could become a serious liability.  Further, under 
the 14. Nb6+  axb6 line, Black's pawns are doubled on the b-file.

It remains to be seen if Kasparov will choose to play the knight 
fork, or develop an alternate piece; moves such as 12. Be3, 12. Qb3, 
and 12. Bh6 have been briefly studied. All appear to yield mild 
advantages for Black, but unfortunately are not discussed here.

----------------------------------------------------------

Some Possible Lines:

----------------------------------------------------------

All lines are based upon the assumption that the following sequence 
of moves are forced:

12. Nc7+	        Kd7
13. Nxa8          ...

There is good reason to expect that this line will be played.  With 
11... Qxe4, Black has gained a material advantage of a pawn (and a 
significant pawn at that), pressuring White into playing a line that 
will recover the lost material.  The above  line accomplishes this 
for White.  Alternatives to 12. Nc7+ do not appear to allow White to 
gain material compensation for the lost pawn.

----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+	             Kd7
13. Nxa8	            Rxa8

Rather than playing for the capture of White's c pawn (Qxc4), Rxa8 
captures the cornered a8 knight.  However, this permits:

14. Qb3		Ne5
15. Be3		Nxc4
16. Ng3		...

Material exchange is equal, but the resulting position leaves White 
with several targets to attack.  Further, Rxa8 is not necessary; 
White's a8 knight is trapped in the corner, and, barring a serious 
blunder by Black, will be captured.

----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+	                Kd7
13. Nxa8	                Qxc4
14. b3		...

Rather than forcing doubled pawns on the b-file, White can choose to 
forgo moving the trapped knight in favor of an attack on Black's 
queen.  However, a response of 14... Qa6 removes the threat, and does 
not permit White to force double Black pawns with Nb6+, since 15. 
Nb6+   Qxb6.


----------------------------------------------------------

The Kastner Line:

12. Nc7+	                 Kd7
13. Nxa8	                Qxc4 
14. Nb6+	               axb6 
15. b3 		Qd5 
16. Bb2 	               Qxd1 
17. Rfxd1 	e6 
18. Rac1  	Rg8

This line is generally considered to be unfavorable for White.  After 
White's 15. b3 attack on Black's queen, 15... Qd5, leading to a queen 
exchange.  This reduces the threat to Black due to the centralized 
king, and attempt to bring the game into the endgame, where Black 
would have the advantage.  Black would then have a knight and two 
pawns to White's rook; in addition, both sides have a rook, 
fianchettoed bishop, a knight, and 5 pawns).  The lack of open files 
limits the effectiveness of White's two rooks, and Black's two extra 
pawns can further serve to hamper rook movement.  Black's two knight 
would be more maneuverable in such a half-closed position.  Further, 
whereas a centralized king is a liability in the middlegame, it is an 
advantage in the endgame, and can be used to support Black's other 
forces.  For these reasons, White will likely not choose to play 15. 
b3.

----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+	                Kd7
13. Nxa8	               Qxc4 
14. Nb6+	                axb6 
15. a4		Nd5

15. a4 effectively loses a tempo for White, giving Black the 
initiative.  Unlikely to be played.

----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+	                Kd7
13. Nxa8	                Qxc4 
14. Nb6+	                axb6
15. Be3		Nd5
16. Qd2		...

With 15. Be3, White has placed himself on the defensive.  Following 
15.. Nd5, White must now deal with the threat of Black's Bxb2 as well 
as Nxe3.  In this line, Black has a sizeable space advantage and the 
initiative as well, an undesirable situation for White.  

----------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+                 Kd7
13. Nxa8	               Qxc4 
14. Nb6+	               axb6
15. Nc3		...

By far, this has been the most studied continuation, seeming to offer 
White the greatest opportunity and flexibility.  Nc3 opens up the 
e-file, allowing for White to play Re1 and to gain control of the 
e-file.  With Black's doubled pawns on b6 and b7, it also offers 
White a possible way to attack this weakened positions, such as with 
Na4 and Be3.  Black must respond carefully if White's threats are to 
be successfully countered; then again, this is always the case, 
regardless of position, isn't it?

----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+	                Kd7
13. Nxa8	               Qxc4 
14. Nb6+  	axb6
15. Nc3		Nd4
16. Be3		Nd5
17. Nxd5	               Qxd5

15... Nd4 is not a desireable response for Black, since this leads to 
18. Qd2, pinning Black's knight.  This will require Black to expend a 
move to break the pin, giving White the initiative.  Further, White 
gains control of open c and e files, good homes for the rooks.  
White's central position is strong under this variation.

----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+	               Kd7
13. Nxa8	               Qxc4
14. Nb6+	               axb6
15. Nc3		Ra8
16. Qf3		b5         
17. Bg5		b4         
18. Bxf6	                Bxf6       
19. Nd5		...         

15... Ra8 capitalizes on the newly formed open a-file (created bye 
14... axb6).  However, the 16. Qf3 response initiates a series of 
moves that will open up the c and e files for White, allowing White 
to efficiently utilize his two rooks.  It prevents White from playing 
16. Na4 or similar moves, but overall allows White to apply a great 
deal of pressure on the center.

----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+	               Kd7
13. Nxa8	               Qxc4
14. Nb6+	               axb6
15. Nc3		Rc8
16. Be3		b5
17. Rc1		e6
18. b3		...

The idea behind 15... Rc8 is the anticipation that White will try to 
clear out the c-file to make room for his a1 rook.  Rc8 attempts to 
stake a claim to this file first, so that when the file is finally 
cleared, Black will already have position there.  However, the 
resulting set of moves cramps Black's already weak queenside, and 
give White the initiative.

----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+	                Kd7
13. Nxa8	                Qxc4
14. Nb6+	                axb6
15. Nc3		Rd8
16. Re1		Ke8
17. Bg5

Ostensibly, Rd8 attempts to strengthen the d6 pawn, and attempt to 
lay claim to the d-file.  However, a king move is required on Black's 
part to move the king to safety and fully activiate the rook as it 
was intended.  Meanwhile, White has found a home for his f1 rook on 
e1, staking a large claim to the center.

----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+  	Kd7
13. Nxa8  	Qxc4
14. Nb6+  	axb6
15. Nc3		d5
16. Na4		Kc7
17. Bg5		Nd7
18. Rc1		Qxa2
19. Bxe7	...

15... d5 is interesting, but after 16. Na4, Black must defend the 
weak b6 pawn with Kc7.  Bg5 threatens to weaken kingside, Rc1 attacks 
Black's queen and secures the c-file, and Bxe7, followed later by 
Re1, will secure the e-file.  A White move of Qd4 is also dangerous, 
threatening Qxb6.  White has many different lines of attack in this 
variation, retains initiative, and finds homes for both rooks.  Not a 
particularly promising variation.

----------------------------------------------------------

12. Nc7+  	Kd7
13. Nxa8  	Qxc4
14. Nb6+  	axb6
15. Nc3		b5
16. Re1		b4
17. Na4		Qb5
18. Be3		Rd8
19. Rc1		Ke8
20. Bb6		Rd7

With 15... b5 and 16... b4, Black attempts to gain some space while 
pressuring White knight to move, enabling a future Nd5 and opening 
the attack line for Black's g7 bishop.  White's response is to first 
lay claim to the open e-file, and then claim the weak b6 square.  Rd8 
secures the d6 pawn, preventing Qxd6 by White.  Rd7 is an escape from 
White's bishop.  Since the trading of queens has not occurred, 
endgame may still be quite a way off, and Black needs to maneuver the 
king to a more secure location (e.g. f8 or g8).  With this variation, 
white has strong control over the center.

----------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------

Some possibly useful links:

http://www.gtryfon.demon.co.uk/bcc/drama/kaspvsrestofworld/kaspvsrest.
htm

http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/kasparov-world.html

http://www.smartchess.com/SmartChessOnline/smartchessonline/archive/MS
NKasparov/the_game.htm

http://www.clubkasparov.ru/index0e.htm

http://www.gamers.com/messages/overview.asp?board_id=3684&page=1&low-e
xpand

----------------------------------------------------------

As always, comments, additions, and corrections are welcome.  Please 
post them as followups to this posting, and I'll try to incorporate 
them into the next revision of the FAQ.  Go World Team!

On Thu Jul 15 22:48:27, Deep Smeg wrote:
> Some analysis on 15. Nc3  Ra8, with Whites concentration on the 
> Q-side, b6 in particular:
> 
> 16. Be3   Ra6   thrust and parry

I think 16... b5 is better than just protecting the pawn. It's a sort 
of transposition into the 15... b5 line but with the rook on a8 
instead of d8. But when playing Ra8 first, black has the possibility 
to answer 16 Re1 with Ra5 which looks quite strong. The variations 
are:

16 Re1 Ra5  17 Be3 Bd5  18 Nxd5 Rxd5  19 Qe2 b5 (Speelman).

16 Be3 b5 and now:

17 Rc1 Ke8
  18 a3 transposing into one of the lines below (17 a3 Ke8  18 Rc1).
  18 b3?! (xc3) Qh4  19 Qe2 (19 Nxb5 Rxa2  20 Rc4 Qh5 looks ok for 
black)
     19... b4  20 Nb5 Kf8 with advantage for black (Ra8 -> a5, 
a2).

17 a3 Ke8
  18 Qf3 b4  19 axb Rxa1  20 Rxa1 Qxb4  21 Ra8+ Kd7
  18 Rc1 b4 19 axb Qxb4  20 Qe2 Kf8 is ok.
                 19 Na4 Qb5  20 Nb6 Ra6  21 Nc4 bxa  22 bxa d5! 
(black is better)
                 19 b3 Qa6 20 axb Nxb4 21 Qd2 Qd3! (weak white 
squares).

17 a4 (idea: transpose into the 15... b5  16 a4 line and prevent the 
king
from escaping) 17... b4  18 Nb5 Ke8?? doesn't work but: 18... Nd5! and
black is better again (white's queenside gets under pressure).

Martin

Mr. Garry Kasparov- World (We!) 
[Thought provocing analyses  created soleyly by   Alain Peter Spiriew 
)


Dear World Team !

Sorry my english is bad.

Until now I thought this site is about serious chess and not about 
little girls playing with us. 
Please read my detailed analyses after this - not so important 
personal note. I am interested only in chessgame and not in 
chesspolitics but I would like to tell You something which I have 
never told to anybody so far....  
In 1991 Polgars (Papa Polgar)this anti-anti-anti Christian man called 
me "an antisemitic" even I did not knew that they the Polgars 
 are all Jews. They are the reason I stopped playing chess in 1991. 
They attacked me in every way because Papa Polgar saw that I am much 
more talented than the daugthers of him. Portisch - A Christian like 
me - als said that I can become World Champion one day... After that 
report Papa Polgar went mad mad mad ! He told everywhere that I am an 
antisemitic and attacked me every way simply because he was afraiding 
of my talant. So please understand what I write here. If I am able to 
help the World team I will do so but if any Polgar is in our team I 
will quit! 
I wrote some dtailed analysis to You.  Read also what I have written 
previously. Note: I repeat I do not like Polgars. All they can do for 
the World team to give old pictures?
Polgar Judit lost every game against Garry Kasparov where they 
played.Now Shirov beats Polgar Judit by 3:0 so Why this huge 
publicity for nothing. Leko Peter and Almasi 
Zoltan are much better players in Hungary right now. They like to 
talk about chess ....Talk talk talk ... this is Polgar's  policy. No 
matter it is good or bad just talk talk talk... I do not wish to be 
in one team with any kind of Polgars as Bobby Fischer told in an 
interwiew the Polgars are thieves. I belive him. I belive in Bobby 
Fischer. This is a serious chessgame with Garry Kasparov - who is 
also a very great man in my estimation even if Bobby does not like 
him -  so what kind of Polgars are here. Why dont they the Polgars  
give us concrete variations instead of old pictures . They are just 
ugly. Give us concrete variations not ugly pictures. I repeat they 
attacked me continiously I never attecked them until now. Papa Polgar 
called me everywhere an antisemitic even I did not knew that they are 
Jews! This is why I write this down. He is too agressive man that is 
why I do not like them. I am a serious business man here in Hungary . 
I like Bobby Fischer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
He is our King! Chess King of the Universe !     

But now Back to the Real Chess!!
Back to our chess , Fischer's chess! Without compromise!

As I hope  You all know I propose a different line after 15. Nc3. I 
(Spiriev) recommend to play for the World team  15....d5! instad of 
15...b5 but of course every line which I propose  must be checked by 
the members of our World Team.

In my P.S. (Which in this case means My Answers to Your Kind 
Questions ) I try to give concrete answers.  
 After You asked me some questions I decided to give that - a bit 
secret- analyses in that I will try to to show to You that 16.Na4 is  
faar not as dangerous as You think or I hope after reeding my 
analyses only thinked.  I simply do not have time to answer every 
question so here it is. My analyses (all!) to 16.Na4. One of my 
teammmate (Deeper Blue who I hope is a real man and not a silicon 
guy) gave some variations where he she or it tried to to tell that 
16.Na4 is a good move (now I agree with him in this) but also told 
that White gets better position after this.Now  I agree on that that 
this is a critical line of 15...d5!  but I am quite sure that Mr.Mrs. 
or Its. he she or it underestimated my idea  a bit.

Previously I wrote :

Dear World team!
As I see my proposal of playing 15...d5! was interesting to You. 
About I hour ago You gave me some questions for which I would like to 
answer. But all answers I wish to give in my "P.S." as I see 
one of the problem of the World team is that there are too many 
independent questions and answers . We must act together and play 
very carefully. More carefully than our great opponent Garry  ! I 
think he already made two mistake.
In my P.S. I would like to answer to dear chessfriend Karl Juhnke and 
to dear Chessmasterone too . 
Even more  previously I wrote :
 Here is a copy of my letter to Irina Krush some days earlier :
Kasparow - World  [thought provocing original analyses created by 
Peter Spiriev]
Hello Irina! My name is Peter Spiriev from Budapest. I am 29 years 
old. I was (and I hope still I am)  a very strong chessplayer. But at 
the age of 19 I stopped playing chess because I had to direct a big 
company here at Budapest. 
Sorry my english is bad but I hope my analyses generates some 
thoughts on the part of the World Team and will help You to find some 
more good ideas. Please accept my congratulation for Your very good 
idea Qe6!. 
I would like to offer You some analyses I have made (true only I had 
30 minutes or a little bit more to make this but probably You can use 
this or You can show this to Your trainers)
I must add that   I did not used a computer to make this analysis so 
You should check them with a computer but I think not only a computer 
is able to make  interesting analyses. I have readed  Your analyses 
and found them interesting but I think for example for 15.Nc3 b5 is 
not the best.I offer You to analyse the possibility of 15...d5!. I 
think that 
15...d5 is more sharp.I think Your move 10...Qe6! was a very good 
choice. 
Congratulation for You! Keep up the good work!
Note : I also hope that Bobby Fischer will join the World team. What 
a game would be that ? A postal game between Bobby Fischer and Garry 
Kasparov! The game of the century.
I hope that some reporters in Philippino will ask him about the game 
and he will share his concrete ideas about this very interesting 
game. Until then I can only offer my contribution._   
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bxd7+ Qxd7 5.c4 Nc6 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.0-0 g6 
8.d4 cxd4 9.Nxd4 Bg7 10.Nde2 Qe6 11.Nd5 Qxe4 12.Nc7+ Kd7 13.Nxa8 Qxc4 
The basic position for my analisis 14.Nb6+ axb6  a.15.a4 Nd5 
[also good is 15...Rc8 16.Ra3 (16.b3 Qh4 17.Bf4 ¤h5 18.g3 Qf6 19.Rc1 
Nxf4 20.Nxf4 e6 21.Re1 d5 22.Nd3 Qf5! is good for Black) 16...e6 
17.Rf3 d5 18.Bg5 Ke7 19.Rf4 Qc5 20.b4 Qd6 21.b5 ¤e5 22.Rh4 h5 is not 
bad for Black either] 16.Ra3 e6 17.Rh3 b5 18.axb5 Qxb5 19.Rb3 Qa6 is 
good for Blackb.15.Bg5 h6! (I think the correct answer)(15...Ne4?! 
16.Be3 Bxb2? 
17.Rb1 Bg7 18.Rxb6 Kc8 19.Qb1!!) ; 
c.15.Nf4 e5! 16.b3 Qd4 17.Qxd4 Nxd4 18.Bb2 Nc2! 19.Rac1 Rc8 is good 
for Black; 
d.15.Nc3 d5! (Independently I think this is slightly better than 
15...b5 but of course both moves are playable The basic idea of 
15...d5 -which move I propose instead of 15...b5 is that we must play 
where we are stronger! We are stronger in the centre now due to our 
strong pawns in the centre. I think that 15...b5?! will only further 
weakening our weak double pawns and with it we only make Whites play 
much easier. The Knight from c3 will get only better places and the 
bishop can come out to e3. If the World accept my offer to play 
15...d5! Kasparov will never find a good place for his pieces) 16.a4 
(16.Be3 d4 17.Rc1 Nd5! 18.Ne2 Qb4! Is ideal for Black) 16...e6!
(16...d4! is probably even better 17.Nb5 Rd8 and Black has better 
position!)
(also interesing but probably weaker is 16...Rd8 because of 17.Nb5 
Ne4 18.b3 Qb4 19.Rb1 Ke8 20.Ba3 Nd2 21.b4 Bd4 22.Nxd4 Qxd4 23.Bb3 but 
this is a little more favorable to White)
So after 16...e6! a possible continuation might be:
   17.Be3 d4 18.Nb5 Nd5 19.Rc1 Qb4 20.Bd2 Qe7 21.Qf3 Rd8 22.Rfe1 Ke8 
Blacks position is  not worse than Whites. 
 Best Regards,Alain Peter Spiriev , Budapest ,1999.07.15. at a.m.1 o 
clock


P.S.  My Answers to Your kind questions.
1. To Karl Juhnke . Dear Karl, Of course I knew about 16.Na4 (was it 
in Irina Krush  s analyses I did not knew ) but I did not found it . 
Anyway in my analyses I wished to present my main lines which means 
that I wanted to mention only strong moves for both side. 
I did not wish to mention 16.Na4 because I think that is a bad move. 
16. Na4 in my estimation is a tipical computer move. Computers are 
often make such bad moves in these kind of positions . Irina probably 
has  a very computer but this postion deserves understanding of 
difficult strategical problems. The position reminds me of the famous 
game between Zuckertort and Steinitz . 16. Na4 is bad bacause the 
Knight stands very bad on the edge of the board after 16...Kc7!
probably White can play 17.Bg5 but now wee can play 17...b5! winning 
even more tempo . So I ask Why is that 16. Na4 is good . I think it 
is a bad move which only helpes Black this is why I did not mentioned 
it in my original analyses. Thanks for Your kind notes.
2. To " Chessmasterone" Dear Teammate! You wrote that " 
15...d5 is suspect" but did not gave any concrete analyses. 
You told that 16.Be3 is dangerous for 15...d5 but I think You did not 
read my analyses enough carefully. I have mantioned this move in my 
analyses as I also thinked it worth a look but found it not dangerous 
to our position . I gave concrete analyses to show why it is not 
dangerous. Whould You give me any concret variation why do You think 
that my analyses was not absolut corret . I am waiting for that. 
Further on I think that Your 15...Ra8 is also playable but now it is 
not the question that a continuation is playable or not but the 
question is whisch move is the very best ?
I think it is 15...d5! and I have tried to present a carefull 
analisis to show it why do I think that. 
Would You do the same it with 15...Ra8 . Please do it on one page 
because I also want to check Your analisis. Thank You for asking me.
Sincerely ,Peter Spiriev Hungary A.M. 8:42.
Please Note : These letters to sent to World team costs me much money 
as here in Hungary we have A.M. 8:43 so please understand if I 
connect to this message board not so often. Anyway for a World Team 
winning every member of our Great World Team has to sacrifice 
something....     
Garry give up as we are more unated as ever before! Go World! Go!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So Here under (3.) I would like to give some analyses I made 
previously.     1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bxd7+ Qxd7 5.c4 Nc6 
6.Nc3 Nf6 7.0-0 g6 8.d4 cxd4 9.Nxd4 Bg7 10.Nde2 Qe6 11.Nd5 Qxe4 
12.Nc7+ Kd7 13.Nxa8 Qxc4 14.Nb6+ axb6 15.Nc3 d5! 
I propose this move - Spiriev 16.Na4 Kc7 better than Qb5 17.Be3 Nd7 
a.17...e5 is probably very very interesting but  in my estimation 
only in a practical game  ( in MikhailTal s style ) but of course  
this is too wild and incorrect line  for the World team to play it in 
such a serious correspondence game as this. ; 
b.17...d4? 18.Rc1 Qd5 19.Bxd4! (19.b4 You (Deeper Blue) gave this 
move with " lots of play for White" I think White is simply 
losing a piece with 19.b4 after 19...dxe3. But of course instead of 
the weak 19.b4 White can simply take tha pawn with 19.Bxd4 and wins.) 
] 

Now back to the position after17...Nd7!
 
18.b3 Here in this position I think You (Deeper Blue) a little 
overestimated Whites position. In my estimation there are plenty of 
good ways to handle the position with Black. 18...Qb5! Please look at 
this position very carefully.I do see that  in this case we will have 
a strong bishop and a strong centre. What other we need to cach this 
Garry? 
a.[18...Qh4 19.Qxd5 Bxa1 20.Rxa1 e6 is about equal because White has 
compensation for his lost pawn. But I think even here White has no 
more than compensation.; 
b.18...Qxf1+ 19.Qxf1 Bxa1 20.Qxa1; 
c.18...Qe4!? is also interesting! Black does not get the d5 pawn. 
19.Re1 Bxa1! 20.Bxb6+ Nxb6 21.Rxe4 dxe4 22.Qxa1 e5! as I see is not 
bad for Black either; 
d.18...Qa6? You (Deeper Blue)  gave this as "normal move" I 
would rather call it as " too defensive and bad" . As I see 
the best continuation after it for both side is : 19.Rc1! e6 
 20.Qf3! f5 21.Bxb6+!! Nxb6 22.Nc5! Qa3 23.Nxe6+ Kd7 24.Nxg7 is 
better for White; 
But I think the main line is : 
18...Qb4!! I think this is not only much better than your Qa6 but 
also gives very good position for Black. 19.Rc1 (19.Qxd5 Bxa1 20.Rxa1 
e6 21.Qf3 f5! as I see this is also not bad for us is not bad for us 
(black) 22.a3 Qg4 23.Qxg4 fxg4 and I think that Blacks position is 
more comfortable) 19...d4 In this case we  do have strong centre.  
20.Bd2] 19.Rc1 Kb8! 20.Nc3!? Bxc3 21.Rxc3 e5! and we will have a very 
strong centre where I think Black stands better. 
If You look at this position You will see what was the idea behind my 
proposition  15...d5! Line

Best Regards , Peter Spiriev, Hungary Budapest.
Go World! Go! We can catch this simpathetic Garry guy!

Check this line played by Fritz (Fritz5,32-engine versus 
Fritz5.32-engine):

15 ... Ra8
16. Be3 Ra6?! (rather passive)
17. Qd2 e6
18. Rfd1 d5
19. Bh6!?! (although this is no Dragon, and the King's not on g8) 
Bh8?!! (one move's smarter than the other!..)
20. Rac1 Ng4
21. Nxd5 Qxd5
22. Qf4 Bd4
23. Qxg4! Rxa2
24. Be3 h5
25. Qxd4 Nxd4
26. Rxd4 Rxb2
27. Rxd5 exd
28. Bd4 Rb4
29. Rd1 b5
30. Kf1 Ra4
31. Ke2 Ke6
32. Kd3 (because of this position I originally denied 15...Ra8, but 
.. see what Fritz makes happen) Ra3+
33. Kc2 g5
35. Rb1 Rc4+
36. Kd3 b4
37. Re1+ Kd6
38. Re5 b3
39. Rf5? Rxd4!!
40. Kxd4 b2 -+
...
0-1 (56)

(If you have enough time, please check if there are some misprints :)

As you can see, the computer's play goes up and down, first white has 
advantage, then he loses it. But even (or maybe just because of that) 
a patzer like Fritz wins that endgame with Black! But, considering 
the strange s###f Fritz played, full of genius mistakes (or is it the 
complexity of that position?!?), I will analyse the game myself from 
now on and hopefully lead the World team to his win.

Witali

(Those with no sense of humor or who think entertaintment does not 
belong in here are invited for comments.)

~

just a thought.

On Tue Jul 20 12:57:43, AntZ wrote:
> 48.15% listen to WHATEVER Irina saya...and this time it was 
> really stupid...THIS game turned into 
> Irina vs. Kasparov...I am not playing any more.
> I resign.
> BLACK RESING IN THE NEAREST FUTURE.


Don't let the wb page background hit you on the way out.  buh bye. 
Who brought the antz to this picnic anyway











YAH BIG BABY WHINER

And, I understand my music is quite well-known there.

TCHELOVEK 

This is for You!!!

With my love
FM

Hi!

I would only let you know that someone from Australia are posting 
some ridicule thoughts using my name or identity in this BBS.

Once in a while this kind of behave from some strangers happen here. 
But, you can count on one thing, I will be never impolite against 
anyone in this BBS. And, If you read something with bad manners, this 
is not from me.

Be careful and thanks for your understanding.

Michel Gagne C.M.
www.michelgagne.com

On Wed Jul 21 11:46:35, ross amann wrote:
> 
> There are problems with the FAQ analysis of 16.a4 Ne4 - as pointed 
> out by Martin - 17.Nxe4 Qxe4 18.Qb3 Nd4 19.Qxf7 Nd4 20.Bd2!! Nxa1 
> 21.Re1 Qh4 22.Qd5 Rf8 23.Qxb7+ etc. (Kf7 Qd5+ Ke8 Qb5+ Kf7 Rxa1) and 
> White is better.
> 
> However there is a different move 18. ...Bd4 19.Qxf7 Ne5 which Martin 
> and I have analyzed here too.

18. ... Bd4 19. Qxf7 Ne5 is in the lastest FAQ

On Wed Jul 21 13:37:32, DonJasper wrote:
> Seems to me that 17.Nd5 is a pretty strong move - worth considering 
> anyway.

Why doesn't Black plain lose after White responds Nd5?  Possibly 
followed by Re1 or b3?

Someone help!

On Wed Jul 21 13:45:37, DonJasper wrote:
> Hurts doesn't it?

No it doesn't..  But 17...Bd4 18.Be3 Does!!

On Wed Jul 21 19:25:49, richard bean wrote:
> I am running 7 celeron 450's with crafty 16.13
> on each of Ne4,Nb4,Nd4,e6,Ke8,Ra5, and d5.
> 
> crafty likes Ke8 best but out of the four
> MSN people's moves (Nd4,d5,Ra5 and Ne4)
> it likes Irina's move Ne4 best by a fair way.
> 
> so play Ne4!!!! (f6-e4)
> 
> (about 1/2 hour on each computer so far)

what did your computers say about Nd4? I'd like to know one or two 
lines. I like Ne4 too but d4 looks interesting.

Na5 is valid....

Possible lines of continuation:
17 Be3 Nb3  18. Rb1 Nc5
19. b4 Qxc3 20. bxc5 bxc5
21. Rxb2+ Kd8 22.Bd2? ...
not bad for black... still good central control and all the threats 
on the Q-side of the board have been dealt with.
...or...
17. Be3 Nb3 18. Qf3 d5 ....
any way this goes is ok for black i think...
...or...
17. Be3 Nb3 18.Rb1 Nc5 
19. Bxc5 bxc5 
.... follows the first line in a round about way...

I let Fritz run to a depth of 13-ply on the moves ...Ne4, ...Nd4, 
...Ra5, ...d5, and ...e6.
  The program evaluated the positions after each of those 5 moves as 
roughly equal, but considered ...e6 as best (-0.19), ...d5 as second 
(-0.09), ...Ra5 third (flat zero), ...Ne4 fourth (...+0.06), and 
...Nd4 worst (+0.19).  The evaluations are from White's standpoint, 
so as Black we want the largest negative number we can get, or the 
smallest positive.  (One full "point" would mean an advantage 
or disadvantage of a full pawn.)

The results suggest that the hystrionics claiming disaster if we 
choose one move or another are greatly overstated.  However Fritz at 
least seems to believe that central pawn advances in general are 
prefereable to knight excursions.

16...Na5 17.Bg5 Nb3 18.Qf3 Qc6 19.Qa3+ Ke8 20. Ra3 Nd4 21. Bxf6 Bxf6 
22. Qxh7

Looks kinda unclear, but we are down another pawn.


On Wed Jul 21 19:34:53, caffman wrote:
> Na5 is valid....
> 
> Possible lines of continuation:
> 17 Be3 Nb3  18. Rb1 Nc5
> 19. b4 Qxc3 20. bxc5 bxc5
> 21. Rxb2+ Kd8 22.Bd2? ...
> not bad for black... still good central control and all the threats 
> on the Q-side of the board have been dealt with.
> ...or...
> 17. Be3 Nb3 18. Qf3 d5 ....
> any way this goes is ok for black i think...
> ...or...
> 17. Be3 Nb3 18.Rb1 Nc5 
> 19. Bxc5 bxc5 
> .... follows the first line in a round about way...

Na5.....
please tell me what  the result is...

On Wed Jul 21 19:44:34, InspectionMan wrote:
> Well, i reviewed everything again, n-e4, p-d5, r-a5, p-b5, k-e8, h5, 
> and on and on, and i have not found anything better than pawn to e6, 
> man i'll tell you, that n-e4 is wide open, very unclear lines, and in 
> the end, i really believe white is better, however, it's a matter of 
> style of play!! , for me, e6, is the best and safest move for black 
> right now! Yes, d5, is good too, but i like e6 !!
You're right, e6 looks OK...
The main problem is that e6 is actually a committal move. If you 
looked at all the lines posted, and the MS chess analysts' lines, 
very few will move the pawn to e6.
The motto is e6 looks simple, but it could be a wasted tempo. And you 
can't get away with that when playing GK, or even another GM.

For Ne4, I have:

16. a4         Ne4
17. Nxe4     Qxe4
18. Qb3       Nd4

now

19. Qxf7      Nc2
20. Nxa1     Re1
21. Re1       Qh4
22. Qd5       Rf8
23. Qxb7+    Ke8
24. Qc6+     Kf7
25. Qd5+     Ke8 

etc.... draw?


For Nd4, I have:

16. a4        Nd4
17. Be3      Nd5
18. Nxd5    Qxd5
19. Rc1      b5
20. axb5     ...

and looking pretty ugly for Black

for d5, I have:

16. a4      d5
17. Bg5    e6
18. Rc1   Nd4
19. Re1   Qb4
20. b3      h6
21. Bxf6   Bxf6
22. Ne2   Nxe2+
23. Rxe2 b5
24. Rec2 Bg5
25. Rc7+ Ke8
26. Qf3    ...

looking about even...

Comments?  Refutations?

(no body)

On Wed Jul 21 19:32:18, Gopher316 wrote:
> On Wed Jul 21 19:25:49, richard bean wrote:
> > I am running 7 celeron 450's with crafty 16.13
> > on each of Ne4,Nb4,Nd4,e6,Ke8,Ra5, and d5.
> > 
> > crafty likes Ke8 best but out of the four
> > MSN people's moves (Nd4,d5,Ra5 and Ne4)
> > it likes Irina's move Ne4 best by a fair way.
> > 
> > so play Ne4!!!! (f6-e4)
> > 
> > (about 1/2 hour on each computer so far)
> 
> what did your computers say about Nd4? I'd like to know one or two 
> lines. I like Ne4 too but d4 looks interesting.

17. Be3 Nd5 18. Nxd5 Qxd5 19. Rc1 e6 20. Rc3 Ke8
21. Bd4 Bxd4 22. Rd3 e5 23. Rh3 b5 24. axb5 Qxb5
25. Rh7 Qb2  +.47 for white after 16... Nd4

+.60 for white after 16... d5 17. Nb5

but only +.16 for white after 16... Ne4!

On Wed Jul 21 20:00:50, Computer Chess Team wrote:
>  
Normally I don't hold alot of faith in machines but this time I 
agree, it's our best shot to draw, Ne4!!?
And we can't expect better and Kasparov knows this!!

On Wed Jul 21 20:02:35, Richard Bean wrote:
> On Wed Jul 21 19:32:18, Gopher316 wrote:
> > On Wed Jul 21 19:25:49, richard bean wrote:
> > > I am running 7 celeron 450's with crafty 16.13
> > > on each of Ne4,Nb4,Nd4,e6,Ke8,Ra5, and d5.
> > > 
> > > crafty likes Ke8 best but out of the four
> > > MSN people's moves (Nd4,d5,Ra5 and Ne4)
> > > it likes Irina's move Ne4 best by a fair way.
> > > 
> > > so play Ne4!!!! (f6-e4)
> > > 
> > > (about 1/2 hour on each computer so far)
> > 
> > what did your computers say about Nd4? I'd like to know one or two 
> > lines. I like Ne4 too but d4 looks interesting.
> 
> 17. Be3 Nd5 18. Nxd5 Qxd5 19. Rc1 e6 20. Rc3 Ke8
> 21. Bd4 Bxd4 22. Rd3 e5 23. Rh3 b5 24. axb5 Qxb5
> 25. Rh7 Qb2  +.47 for white after 16... Nd4
> 
> +.60 for white after 16... d5 17. Nb5
> 
> but only +.16 for white after 16... Ne4!


I was asking about Nd4, not Nd5:]

Lets black dictate as well as help keep centre secure.  White 
will surly exchange!!  Keep an eye out for advice from people like 
Apophaic.  Important, not to over look something.. What might end up 
being a mistake here would be that we are eliminating matereal.. 
exchange of queens are good but I think a breakdown of anything else 
would favore white..  We must keep it complicated, or our centre 
pawns won't stand a chance.. I see now how are position is good as 
long as there are pieces on the board... thoughts??  Keep the ideas 
going.. we have little time left.....

The following site presents some analysis in an easier way to follow. 
It's intended for average players to follow the game.

I am working on adding comments and on testing to see if there are 
any error!

     http://watch.at/chesstree

Comments and suggestions are highly appriciated.

Note: For now, the chess board may only be seen by some browsers. (I 
am working on fix for it).

16...Ne4
17.Qd5 Qxd5
18.Nxd5 Ra6
19.Be3 Nc5 (Krush evaluates this as better for Black)
20.Rfd1 Bxb2
21.Rab1 Nxa4
22.Nxb6+ Rxb6
23.Bxb6 Nc3
24.Rxd6+ exd6
25.Rxb2 and after this liquidation, we have an interesting endgame 
which Hiarcs regards as dead even.

Are there any lines that refute Bacrot's d5 pawn push?  I don't 
necessarily agree with d4 until we play e6 first, but after a bit of 
analysis, I think the time is right to push the pawns.  I didn't vote 
for Bacrot's Rd8 because I was worried about Na4, but now that that's 
somewhat secure, I don't believe d5 puts our king at risk, and I 
don't like how the Ne4 and Nd4 lines are shaping up.   Lead with your 
weak pieces and follow with the stronger ones, not the other way 
around.

Refutations?

Florin picked it this time.  16...Nd4 is a must!  If Garry gets to 
put his night at b5 and then his bishop at e3 (potentially capturing 
our pawn at b6) and then moves his rooks to c1 and e1, in just 4 
moves he will be completely developed with all his pieces aimed at 
our king.  I don't like the looks of that one little bit!

Irina, in her analysis in support of our last move 15...Ra8, had 
suggested 16...Ra5, but now she has changed her tune to 16...Ne4.  
She suggests in her analysis that this will force a trade of nights, 
but Garry can simply move Nb5, which she doesn't consider, and does 
not prevent Garry from developing as I suggest above.

Elisabeth follows Irina's original suggestion of 16...Ra5, and sees 
how the rook can get blocked in.  But I think we need the rook back 
on the 8th rank just in case we have to bring it to the c, d, or e 
file in a few moves.  (The c-file has untapped potential that noone 
has really talked about up to now.)

Etienne goes with 16...d5, but this also does nothing to prevent the 
17.Nb5, does nothing to help develop our pieces, and just weakens our 
king protection.  Moving 17...d4 after that seems like suicide to me.

Florin meanwhile has the right idea.  16...Nd4 prevents 17.Nb5 with 
the possibility of 17...Nb3 and 18...Nc5 placing our night on a very 
nice square that not only protects our pawn at b3 from Garry's bishop 
if it gets to e3, but also attacks that annoying and all important 
white pawn at a4.

Florin's analysis and selection is right-on.  We have to go with that 
(... unless there are any refutations out there.)

Well this move is getting hard to track down  and I have not gotten 
to the Plain English version by any means yet.  definitely wait to 
vote on this one friends.

Anyhow; here is an update for those who are needing to decide.

currently we have the problems 

1. centralized white knight on nc3 
2. threatening move of Qb3 that can punch holes in our pawn fence at 
f7 and b6 (this one doubled and not so needed)
3. Our King is still in the middle of the board 
4. We can not advance pawns
5. We can not attack GKs King

I personally was thrown for a loop when GK played a4 as I fully 
expected Be3  and a much tamer decision this time around to push b5 
and spend time with my wife.  I saw Nd4 as the rebuttal to a4 because 
a4 really weakens GKs queenside pawns(whats left of em hehehe).  So 
he must see something in Nd4 I do not.  I am about to look again.

Meantime I looked at Irina's Ne4 first as it has a likely chance of 
being voted and I was alarmed at some holes I saw in Ne4.  In fact I 
saw holes when I first looked at it as a response to a4, though just 
quick enough to see how complex it was.

I have now satisfied myself there is no hole in Ne4 move itself 
though there are two big holes in Irina's Move analysis as posted 8 
hours earlier. Bear in mind that we directly threaten the knight with 
Ne4 and there are no moves other than the knight that do not cause 
material damage to GK.  He is forced and that in itself is good.


The firsthole in Irina's analysis is Nd5
16. a4  Ne4
17. Nd5 Bd4 (Black bishop on d4 cuts off white queen
18. Ne3 Qe6  protection to white Knight it has no other              
square but Ne3 to go to.)
     I was stuck on queenside moves and knowing I was missing 
something until GM school put up Qe6 and showed me threat on my 
knight from Qg4+ - dduuhh)
19. Plain English only does move lists when thinking not explaining.  
But it is equal from here.  Black is OK.

The really big hole was shown by *** MARTIN ***
16. a4    Ne4
17. Nxe4  Qxe4   (knights are gone, B queen moved over)
18. Qb3  here is that threat to b6 and f7 pawns.
        B6 is weak target AND GK must trade queens as we         trap 
his queen on the b column)
18. ..    Nd4  is Irina's line and it looked beautiful until I read 
*** ROSS AMANN *** post about 

19. Qxf7  Nc2  (Irina's line depended on knight on whites back rows 
tearing up the place with cool L shaped threats.   MARTIN saw   
20. Bd2  which connects the rooks and ruins all of black knights 
threats.  Party over.  So the russian GM school changed their page to 
save face and do indeed show a line from Bd2 that only gives white a 
slight advantage and we play yet a new interesting game if we make 
the votes count for the next 20 moves.  NOT FOR ME. but their 
analysis is at bottom of post for those wnating to see all the moves.

Well Michael (go buckeyes) came back and said lets avoid the Bd2 mess 
 
16. a4    Ne4
17. Nxe4  Qxe4   (knights are gone, B queen moved over)
18. Qb3   e6   (W queen threatens f7.  The World finally can push a 
pawn with good tempo and timing.  I like it) 

So we can vote Ne4  but it is just to get rid of the Knight on c3 and 
push our middle pawns to light squares - a worthy goal itself.   
Black is OK 
--------------------------------------------------

Ke8  is alright and we can not push pawns until we move our King 
behind the f pawn unless we get rid of white's Knight or queen.   So 
moves d5 and e6 this turn are still off my list.
---------------------------------------

Nd4 I am going to look at now.  Man is my wife going to kill me for 
so much time spent online.  I would pay a 1000 dollars if she could 
go on vacation this week.

-----------------------------------------

from Russian GM web site

17...Qxe4 18.Qb3 Nd4! 

The following is worse: 18...Bd4 19.Qxf7 Ne5 20.Qb3 Nd3 21.Ra3 Nxf2 
(21...Bxf2+ 22.Rxf2 Nxf2 23.Qb5+ and king of Black has no good square 
to retreat) 22.Be3 Bxe3 23.Qxe3 Qxe3 24.Rxe3 Ng4 25.Re4 Ne5 26.Rb4 
Ra6 (26...Kc7 27.Rc1+ Nc6 28.Rf4 and the rook makes a break-through 
to the pawns at the kingside), and White has better chances in the 
endgame due to bad position of Black rook and his weak pawns.

19.Qxf7 (19.qh3+ Qf5 and Black has better position). Now Black has 
two options: 19...N?2 leads to quiet position, a bit  worse for 
black, and  19...Bf6 - complicated and unclear position, that needs a 
detailed analysis.

19...N?2 20.Bd2! (20.Ra2? Ne1!! like a bolt from the blue: strange, 
but White cannot escape checkmate without large losses) Nxa1 21.Re1! 
Qh4 22.Qd5 Rf8 23.Qxb7+ Ke8 24.Qc6+ Kf7 25.Qd5+ Ke8 26.Qb5+ Kf7 
27.Rxa1 Qd4 (27...Bd4 28.Qc4+ Kg7 (28...d5? 29.Qxd5+ Kg7 30.Qxd4+! 
Qxd4 31.Bc3) 29.Be3 to White's advantage) 28.Qb3+ e6 29.Re1 Re8 
30.Bc3 Qc5 and White has minimum advantage which is  not enough to win

19...Bf6 (threating to force a draw after Nd4-e6, Ra8-f8-h8 with 
constant threat to ? white Q, immediate19...Ne6 is bad because of 
20.Bg5!) 20.Bd2! Now it is hard to say something concrete about this 
position: from the one side, white Q is in rather dangerous position, 
and Black may try to gain something from that, together with making 
threats to white K and weak queenside of White, from the other side, 
we cannot see yet how to do this.

Finally, besides 16...Ne4!, Black has 16...Ke8, option and after 
17.Re1! Kf8 18.Be3 Qb4 19.Ra3 N?5 20.Re2 results in solid but passive 
position of Black

Stay with us and vote for  16...Ne4! We are sure, that after this 
move everything should be fine for Black.

On Wed Jul 21 21:21:39, Monarkh wrote:
> I've been looking at Felecan's 16...Nd4! (trying to bust it) and it 
> looks like the move. 

I agree!  See my recent post titled "Nd4 is the only move we 
should make!"


> http://www.stormloader.com/monarkh/KvW.html

Interesting. Is this your site?

Check out:  http://www.concentric.net/~lkessler/deepblue.shtml

I am uneasy with 
16....... Nd4
17. Be3   Nb3
18. Qf3  
(Florin only gives Ra3)
18....... d5
19. Rad1 and I like white's game

On Wed Jul 21 21:16:50, Louis Kessler wrote:
> Florin picked it this time.  16...Nd4 is a must!  If Garry gets to 
> put his night at b5 and then his bishop at e3 (potentially capturing 
> our pawn at b6) and then moves his rooks to c1 and e1, in just 4 
> moves he will be completely developed with all his pieces aimed at 
> our king.  I don't like the looks of that one little bit!
> 
> Irina, in her analysis in support of our last move 15...Ra8, had 
> suggested 16...Ra5, but now she has changed her tune to 16...Ne4.  
> She suggests in her analysis that this will force a trade of nights, 
> but Garry can simply move Nb5, which she doesn't consider, and does 
> not prevent Garry from developing as I suggest above.
> 
> Elisabeth follows Irina's original suggestion of 16...Ra5, and sees 
> how the rook can get blocked in.  But I think we need the rook back 
> on the 8th rank just in case we have to bring it to the c, d, or e 
> file in a few moves.  (The c-file has untapped potential that noone 
> has really talked about up to now.)
> 
> Etienne goes with 16...d5, but this also does nothing to prevent the 
> 17.Nb5, does nothing to help develop our pieces, and just weakens our 
> king protection.  Moving 17...d4 after that seems like suicide to me.
> 
> Florin meanwhile has the right idea.  16...Nd4 prevents 17.Nb5 with 
> the possibility of 17...Nb3 and 18...Nc5 placing our night on a very 
> nice square that not only protects our pawn at b3 from Garry's bishop 
> if it gets to e3, but also attacks that annoying and all important 
> white pawn at a4.
> 
> Florin's analysis and selection is right-on.  We have to go with that 
> (... unless there are any refutations out there.)

On Wed Jul 21 21:40:44, Konsul wrote:
> I am uneasy with 
> 16....... Nd4
> 17. Be3   Nb3
> 18. Qf3  
> (Florin only gives Ra3)
> 18....... d5
> 19. Rad1 and I like white's game
> 
How about 18 ...Qc6 ?

What about

16....... Nd4
17. Be3   Nb3
18. Qf3  
(Florin only gives Ra3)
18....... d5
19. Rad1 and I like white's game


On Wed Jul 21 21:40:07, Sylvester wrote:
> I'm liking ...Nd4 more and more, but it's late and I have better 
> things to do now... I'll vote in the morning (maybe)...
> 
> What's against Nd4?
>

On Wed Jul 21 21:50:59, Konsul wrote:

Followed by Nxa1 then...?

> Then Qh3+ followed by Rd1
> 
> On Wed Jul 21 21:46:48, Sylvester wrote:
> > On Wed Jul 21 21:45:01, Konsul wrote:
> > > What about
> > > 
> > > 16....... Nd4
> > > 17. Be3   Nb3
> > > 18. Qf3  
> > > (Florin only gives Ra3)
> > > 18....... d5
> > > 19. Rad1 and I like white's game
> > > 
> > 
> > How about 18 ... Qc6 ?
> >

GM school are like gods! but..

They only give analysis on 16...d5 17. Be3 e6?

instead of 17...e6?, 17....d4!

Now:

18. Rc1 Nd5!
19.Nxd5 Qxd5

Blacks position looks very cool. Lots of space, all potential rook 
files cut off by pieces or pawns, a central pawn mass that is on the 
move! The only potential problem with blacks position could be the 
location of the king.

No ones even attempted at refuting this line.

Krush's move Ne4 leads to an almost forced draw. 

16..Ne4 17.Nxe4 Qxe4 18.Qb3 Nd4! 19.Qxf7 Nc2 20. Bd2 Nxa1 21.Re1 Qh4 
22.Qd5 Rf8 23. Qxb7+ Ke8 24.Qc6+ Kf7 25. Qd5+ Ke8 26. Qb5+ Kf7 27. 
Rxa1

GM school even admits this position (after 27.Rxa1) is slightly 
better for white, but not enough to win.

Both moves seem good. But d5 is the most exciting. There is lots of 
play left in the game after d5, and Black even has a chance to win 
the game.  

The biggest problem with the Krush line, will be having to wait a 
week (or two!) while forced variations are played out!



On Wed Jul 21 21:40:16, MattD wrote:
> The GM chess site has some nice analysis at:
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/english/kasworld/sici28.html
>

This time we seem to have more consensus regarding our next move. You 
can check out Irina's recommendation at:

http://www.smartchess.com/SmartChessOnline/default.htm

and the Russian GM school recommendation at:

http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/english/kasworld/sici28.html

Irina's 16. ...Ne4?! violates Capablanca's Rule in her Plan B: 17. 
Qg4+!!! f5(!)(bad, but best; all other replies lose the e4-knight 
without compensation) when we want maximum mobility for our passed 
d-pawn and deterred e-pawn on their current files.  After 18. Qh4 our 
best is 18....h5(!) for 19. Qxh7 would threaten 20. Qxg7 or 20. Qxf7. 
 Her line 18....Nd4 should go as follows: 19, Nxe4! fe(!) 20. Qxh7 
with a won game for Kasparov.  

We need STRONG d- and e-pawns to compensate for the loss of the 
Exchange.  The f7-pawn should remain behind while the d-pawn leads 
and the e-pawn follows.  The f7-pawn shall fight when Kasparov plays 
f2-f3 or f2-f4 to stop our deterred e-pawn's progress.  And if we win 
Kasparov's a-pawn, it will only ruin the value of his attacking 
chances against our b6-pawn and not be worth a full pawn up for us; 
however, the loss of our h-pawn would be a full pawn up for him.

Irina, known for her "Krushing attacks," has gotten us into a 
daringly dangerous, difficult defensive position in which her advice 
is not the best.  Our problem is that needed pawn advances consume 
many moves quietly on the way to queening.  During this middle game 
Kasparov gets to reply to each pawn push by preparing his own 
crushing attacks.  How does Irina perform at playing her opponents' 
playable positions over the board?  We need endgame strategy, not 
middlegame attacks on Kasparov's currently secure King.  Let's listen 
to Florin Felecan for sound endgame strategy.   

If our b6-pawn becomes doomed, we should not allow ~xb6, but rather 
throw it away on b5 so as to force White's ab, when his two b-pawns 
will be worth our one.  This is impossible if Kasparov can just play 
Nxb5 and we are unprepared for ...Nd4xb5 or ...Na7xb5.
16....Nd4 agrees with this strategy.  

Good luck, World Team

-Kevin Rosenberg

d5 is looking better every minute. Ne4 will get us a draw if we play 
right, we'll win if GK makes a mistake which I doubt he will. A draw 
game is just not fun. but please look at Nd4. its a good move too. 
and there's e6, which I think is a little too defensive.


On Wed Jul 21 22:05:37, Spiriev Peter  - My new original analy wrote:
> My new ideas to 16...d5 
> [original analyses made by Spiriev,Peter,Alain]
> 
> I would like to share with the team some of my original  new ideas 
> and analyses about 16...d5.
> I did not liked 15...Ra8 but after 16.a4 probably there is still a 
> chance to build a strong centre for Black. I do not use computers to 
> analyse so every line must be checked with them but be very careful 
> compters are usualy has no ideas about such kind if position. A 
> strong centre is very important and has very much strategical 
> importance, so please be careful with those "patzer" 
> computers. 
> Here I would like to present my analyses: 
> After : 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bxd7+ Qxd7 5.c4 Nc6 6.Nc3 Nf6 
> 7.0-0 g6 8.d4 cxd4 9.Nxd4 Bg7 10.Nde2 Qe6 11.Nd5 Qxe4 12.Nc7+ Kd7 
> 13.Nxa8 Qxc4 14.Nb6+ axb6 15.Nc3 Ra8 (I did not like this move but 
> anyway....after 16.a4  move I think the best for Black is 16...d5.  
> 16....Nd4 move is interesting too but I prefer to build a strong 
> centre for Black with 16...d5.
> 
> So after 16...d5 move - Which move I propose like Backrot I made some 
> original analyses Here are they:
>  17.Be3 
> a.  17.Re1 is another critical one but Black can build a strong 
> center here too. 17...Nb4; 
> b.  17.Nb5  For this move see Bacrot's analyses. I agree with him.
> 
> Now after 17.Be3 my proposition is  17...d4 this looks good to me if 
> now 18.Nb5 Ne4 19.b3 this move looks not very logical move .
> Other moves are :
> a. 19.Rc1?! Qxa4! is good for Black (Spiriev); 
> b. 19.Ra3!? is an interesting idea here but I like blacks position 
> after 19...e5 (19...Be5 is interesting too with the idea of 
> ...Nd6)Now after 19...e5 20.Bc1  Black has 20...Bf8! a) 21.Rf3 after 
> this move I recommend a difficult move for Black 21...f6! With This 
> move my idea is that it helps the Blacks centre to remain contact 
> (Spirievs analyses)(21...f5 is weaker in my opinion ) ; b) 21.Ra1 
> 21...Nc5! and Blacks position is better (Spirievs analisis)] 
> 
> Back to the "main line" of my analisis after 19.b3  19...Qd5! 
> is a strong move when the position is very interesting. 
> What can try 20.Bf4 in this interesting position but recommend to 
> play the cool 20...Rc8! (Spiriev)after this (lokin very threatening 
> move  where I 
> Now I think that Black's centre is strong enough.
> The exchange of Queens only helps Black's position. (Spiriev) 
> After this there are many nice variations 
> a. 21.f3 21...Nc5 Now after  22.Rb1 arised a critical position in my 
> opinion where I think that Black has more than one good move to 
> further streinghten the Black's position (Spiriev) 
> Now I think Black has 22...Kd8! is a  nice idea 
> Also good for black is in my opinion the other alternative with  
> [22...e5 23.Bg3 (23.Bd2 f5 with big fight.) 23...f5! and this 
> position according to my estimation is also not bad for black 
> (Spiriev)] 
> 
> After 22...Kd8! 
> 23.Re1 e5 looks best to me (Where Black has a strong centre but here 
> in this position I think that many moves are possible for Black
> Other alternatives for White here are :
> b 21.Qf3 For this weak move Black probaly has a strong reply with 
> 21...Nc3! 22.Qh3+ and now if 22...Qe6! 23.Qxh7 loses because of 
> 23...Bf6! (Spiriev analisis); 
> 21.Qd3 For this move Black has 21...Nc5! 22.Qh3+ Qf5! Spiriev 
> analisis; 
> c.21.Rc1 Nc5! is also good for Black I think -Spiriev)] 
> (all original analyses made by Spiriev Peter Alain)

For only the 2nd time in this game, all four analysts
have recommended different moves!  

Capa

Please don't forget to cast your pre vote at:

http://msmusic.hypermart.net/chess

On Wed Jul 21 21:57:11, MacAtak wrote:
> GM school are like gods! but..
> 
> They only give analysis on 16...d5 17. Be3 e6?
> 
> instead of 17...e6?, 17....d4!
> No ones even attempted at refuting this line.

that's because Kasparov continues with his plan
of a4, Nb5!.   He doesn't waste time with Re1.
He just locks your rook out.

We must play Ne4!  Gmschool, computergang and Irina
all concur on this.  gmschool have refuted the other
3 analysts' proposed moves.  It makes you think Irina
is the only one doing any work sometimes.

On Wed Jul 21 22:27:47, Jose Capablanca wrote:
> For only the 2nd time in this game, all four analysts
> have recommended different moves!  
> 
> Capa

A perfect time to totally disregard their moves and make our own 
conclusions.

On Wed Jul 21 22:27:47, Jose Capablanca wrote:
> For only the 2nd time in this game, all four analysts
> have recommended different moves!  

Ahem.  The grandmasters at the grandmaster school,
the computer gang (distributed effort) AND Irina
Krush (the only analyst doing much analysis apparently)
all recommend Ne4!.  

Furthermore, the gmschool (www.gmchess.spb.ru)
offers refutations for the other 3 analysts' moves
(Felecan's Nd4?!, Pahtz's Ra5? and Bacrot's d5?).

(CA) = Computer Analysis enclosed.  Read at your own risk!

The following was done with Fritz 5.32 in infinite analysis mode 
after 17.Nxe4 Qxe4 18.Qb3 Nd4.  I let Fritz think on most moves for 
10 minutes before I made the suggested #1 move and let it think again.

Of course, on the forced moves I didn't have to let it think, but on 
the "apparently forced" moves I still let it think for 5 
minutes just in case!

I hope this helps.  I hope the actual moves up to 18...Nd4 actually 
happen because I have spent HOURS on this!!!! Or maybe I don't...this 
may NOT be the best line for Black!

Analysis by Fritz 5.32:

19.Qxf7 Nc2
20.Bd2 Nxa1
21.Re1 Qh4
22.Qd5 Rf8
23.Qxb7+ Ke8

Here the top choices for White's 24th were too close after 10 min. so 
I let it go for 20 min. with the following results:

Qc6+ (+0.41), g3 (+0.09), Qa8+ (0.00), Qc8+ (0.00)

24.Qc6+ Kf7
25.Qd5+ Ke8
26.Qb5+ Kf7
27.Rxa1

Here again the top 3 choices were very close for 10 min.  After 20 
min.: Qd4 (+0.44), Be5 (+0.62), Bd4 (+0.81).

27...Qd4

Even after 20 min., White's choice was not real clear. Qb3+ (+0.22), 
Bc3 (+0.16), Be3 (+0.13).

28.Qb3+ e6

I had to let Fritz think for over 30 minutes on this next move to try 
to decide between the top 2 choices.  Even then, it is very close Re1 
(+0.34), Bc3 (+0.25)

29.Re1 
Here Fritz has been thinking for almost 30 minutes and it is still 
too close to call:

29...Re8 (+0.37)
29...Qd5 (+0.44)


I also hope this analysis is not too flawed.  I'm sure the GMs will 
be able to see some improvements, but if it is *very* flawed, I'M NOT 
DOING THIS AGAIN!!!

Just a (tired) Chess Player

On Fri Jul 23 07:11:53, Just a Chess Player wrote:
> (CA) = Computer Analysis enclosed.  Read at your own risk!
> 
> The following was done with Fritz 5.32 in infinite analysis mode 
> after 17.Nxe4 Qxe4 18.Qb3 Nd4.  I let Fritz think on most moves for 
> 10 minutes before I made the suggested #1 move and let it think again.
> 
> Of course, on the forced moves I didn't have to let it think, but on 
> the "apparently forced" moves I still let it think for 5 
> minutes just in case!
> 
> I hope this helps.  I hope the actual moves up to 18...Nd4 actually 
> happen because I have spent HOURS on this!!!! Or maybe I don't...this 
> may NOT be the best line for Black!
> 
> Analysis by Fritz 5.32:
> 
> 19.Qxf7 Nc2
> 20.Bd2 Nxa1
> 21.Re1 Qh4
> 22.Qd5 Rf8
> 23.Qxb7+ Ke8
> 
> Here the top choices for White's 24th were too close after 10 min. so 
> I let it go for 20 min. with the following results:
> 
> Qc6+ (+0.41), g3 (+0.09), Qa8+ (0.00), Qc8+ (0.00)
> 
> 24.Qc6+ Kf7
> 25.Qd5+ Ke8
> 26.Qb5+ Kf7
> 27.Rxa1
> 
> Here again the top 3 choices were very close for 10 min.  After 20 
> min.: Qd4 (+0.44), Be5 (+0.62), Bd4 (+0.81).
> 
> 27...Qd4
> 
> Even after 20 min., White's choice was not real clear. Qb3+ (+0.22), 
> Bc3 (+0.16), Be3 (+0.13).
> 
> 28.Qb3+ e6

From the FAQ:

28...e6?! 

The problem with 28...e6 is that it weakens e6, d6 and b6 - which 
represents too many targets for the active White queen. (It does look 
a bit like a Fritzy move). 

29.Re1 Re8 30.Qf3+ 

(30.Bc3 Qc5 "and White has minimum advantage which is  not enough 
to win." GM School - I agree with them) 

30...Kg8 31.Qc6 

(31.Bc3 Qxa4 32.Bxg7 Kxg7 33.Qb7+ Kg8 34.Qxb6 d5 and Black looks OK) 

31...Rf8 32.Be3 Qb4 33.Rb1 Bd4 34.Qd7 Bxe3 

(34...e5?? 35.Bh6+-) 

35.Qxe6+ Kg7 36.Qxe3 Qxa4 37.Qxb6˜, White extra pawn. 

I think this is better - 28...Ke8! 29.Be3 Qxb2 30.Qxb2 Bxb2 31.Rb1 
Bc3 32.Rxb6 Kd7 33.Rb7+ Ke6 - an endgame which needs careful looking 
at.

Of course there could be improvements earlier for White of Black. The 
whole line is difficult and complex.

Ron

The FAQ states C1 line goes as follows
17. Nd5 Bd4
18. Ne3 Qe6
19. Nc2 Bc5
I can suggest an alternative;
19. ... Bg7 (keeps pressure on b pawn with rook on a1)
now if:
20. Re1 (to exploit queen position + develop) Qf5!
which produces a direct threat which must be answered:
21. Qe2 Nc5 (i'm still looking at GKs other move 21s)
22. Ne3 Qe6!? (this is my idea) - look at that b3 square and whites 
a-pawn.
23. Qf1(fails) Rxa
24. RxR NxR(forced)
and now the natural looking Qb5 puts black into a won endgame( in 
think)
25. Qb5 Nc5
26. Qxb6 Qb3!
(27. QxQ NxQ 28.Nd5 NxB 29.RxN and then either 29...Bd4
or 29...e6 ---->30.Nb6+ Kc7 --knight must move and black can push 
the past pawn (d5))
What does everybody think? - I reckon unless white can find much 
better resources (no problem i should imagine...) that he will not 
play 17. Nd5
Comments please 
from NJC

I have analyzed the endpoint of their suggested
Bf6 line (assuming Kasparov plays as expected) to the
endgame which they say is not worse for black.  I
ran Crafty 16.12 with 4-piece endgame tablebases
on this position for 15 hours and a resulting depth
of 19 ply.  At this depth Crafty assesses the endgame
at 75 centipawns in black's favor.  Perhaps someone
with 5-piece tablebases can do a better analysis.

In any case I suggest we analyze the GM school
variations as the best basis for play.  And let's
try to keep up the serious analysis here with a
bit less pointless commentary and horseplay.

On Fri Jul 23 09:03:27, Paul Maher wrote:
> I have analyzed the endpoint of their suggested
> Bf6 line (assuming Kasparov plays as expected) to the
> endgame which they say is not worse for black.  I
> ran Crafty 16.12 with 4-piece endgame tablebases
> on this position for 15 hours and a resulting depth
> of 19 ply.  At this depth Crafty assesses the endgame
> at 75 centipawns in black's favor.  Perhaps someone
> with 5-piece tablebases can do a better analysis.
> 
> In any case I suggest we analyze the GM school
> variations as the best basis for play.  And let's
> try to keep up the serious analysis here with a
> bit less pointless commentary and horseplay.

There is still a problem with 19...Bf6 20.Ra3, I believe. 

And they may have found something with 19...Nc2 line.

Stay tuned for 18.Qb3 e6!?

Ron

I want especially to commend the Krush/Henley/Hodges/et al team for 
their willingness to review most sensible suggestions and revise 
their analysis appropriately. Contrast their openness to other 
participants (whom I leave nameless).

In response I will today make my first purchase from their 
Superstore; I urge others to do likewise!

On Fri Jul 23 22:07:48, Bill wrote:
> Just posted this on general bbs but got no response so thought I'd 
> try here.  It looks like Richard B several lines down has similar 
> thoughts as mine
> 
> I read Irina's analysis prior to Black's Ne4 move.  It said:
> 18. Qb3  Nd4
> 19. Qxf7 Nc2
> 20. Ra3  Nxa3
> 21. Qxg7 Nc2
> 22. b3   Ne1
> 23. f3   Qe2
> 24. Qb2  Qxb2
> 25. Bxb2 Nd3
> ...."and Black with an extra pawn stands better."
> 
> I must look at this closer.  I start getting lost on 20. Ra3.  Why 
> would GK do this?  She says that "20. Ra2 is just crushed by 
> 20...Ne1."  This I understand.  But why wouldn't black do this 
> (20....Ne1) regardless of whether GK moved 20. Ra3 or just left his 
> rook on a1 and moved another piece.  I thought 20. Bd2 would be 
> better for GK uniting rooks.  There must be something I am missing.  
> Why 20. Ra3 for GK?
> 
> Thanks,
> Relative novice

Her analysis must be mistaken on that point, especially considering 
white's Bishop to d2 allows Rook to e1 with fireworks to follow.

On Fri Jul 23 22:28:11, Bill wrote:
> On Fri Jul 23 22:21:02, apophasic wrote:
> > On Fri Jul 23 22:07:48, Bill wrote:
> > > Just posted this on general bbs but got no response so thought I'd 
> > > try here.  It looks like Richard B several lines down has similar 
> > > thoughts as mine
> > > 
> > > I read Irina's analysis prior to Black's Ne4 move.  It said:
> > > 18. Qb3  Nd4
> > > 19. Qxf7 Nc2
> > > 20. Ra3  Nxa3
> > > 21. Qxg7 Nc2
> > > 22. b3   Ne1
> > > 23. f3   Qe2
> > > 24. Qb2  Qxb2
> > > 25. Bxb2 Nd3
> > > ...."and Black with an extra pawn stands better."
> > > 
> > > I must look at this closer.  I start getting lost on 20. Ra3.  Why 
> > > would GK do this?  She says that "20. Ra2 is just crushed by 
> > > 20...Ne1."  This I understand.  But why wouldn't black do this 
> > > (20....Ne1) regardless of whether GK moved 20. Ra3 or just left his 
> > > rook on a1 and moved another piece.  I thought 20. Bd2 would be 
> > > better for GK uniting rooks.  There must be something I am missing.  
> > > Why 20. Ra3 for GK?
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > Relative novice
> > 
> > Her analysis must be mistaken on that point, especially considering 
> > white's Bishop to d2 allows Rook to e1 with fireworks to follow.
> 
> You, or anyone wouldn't happen to know where I might find a more up 
> to date or accurate analysis from her.  I tried 'smartchess' but the 
> Kasporov game just linked me back to here.
> Thanks.

20. Bd2! *is* much better - it's the main line
in the latest FAQ.  It's practically winning
for White.  (see Saif's post below).

In the 0723-2 FAQ, White should probably really
play (18.Qb3 Nd4 19.Qxf7 Nc2 20.Bd2 Nxa1 21.Re1 Qh4
22.Qd5 Rf8 23.Qxb7+ Ke8) 24. g3.

On Fri Jul 23 23:44:36, red foster wrote:
> OK, ok it's only CM 4K but on "Kasparov" setting it likes 18. 
> Re1, our queen moves, then 19. Ra3.
> 
> Is this getting enough analysis?


Dude!!  I just now posted my message on the exact same move.  I just 
played somebody from this point, & thats what he did ( 18. Re1)  & i 
got my ass kicked no mater what I did.... Whats our line on this?

I got this basic line from chesslab computer.  I let it anaylze a 
"long time" and I am wondering if anyone has done other work 
on this line.

basically, it doens't look too bad.  The deeper levels aren't meant 
to prove anything other than there are no obvious traps along this 
line.  I'm sure other can (hane?) come up with much better, but here 
it is anyway.


17. Nxe4 Qxe4
18. Ra3  Nd4

    19a. Be3?  Nc2! (Rook, Bishop fork on white)
    20a. Rd3   Qxa4 (black gains a pawn)

    21a. Bxb6?  
         21a1. .... Ke6? 
         22a1. Qe2+ Be5
         23a1. f4   Nb4
         24a1. fxe5 Nxd3
         25a1. Qxd3 dxe5 (and black is in trouble.)
         
         21a2. ... Qc6
         22a2. Rd2  Ra1
         23a2. Qxc2 Rxf1+
         24a2. Kxf1 Qxb6
         25a2. Qc4  Bxb2 (and black is up a pawn)

    21b. b3    Nxe3
    22b. Rxe3 Qc6
         23b1. Qg4+ e6
         24b1. Rh3  h6
         25b1. Qf4  Ke8
         26b1. Rc1  Qd5
         27b1. Re3     (doesn't look too bad for black)
               
         23b2. Qe2  Be5
         24b2. Rh3  Ra1
         25b2. Rxa1 Bxa1
         26b2. Rxh7 Qc1+
         27b2. Qf1  Qxf1+
         28b2. Kxf1     (looks okay)

         23b3. Qg4+ e6
         24b3. Qh4  Ra1
         25b3. Qxh7 Rxf1+
         25b3. Kxf1 Qc1+
         25b3. Ke2  Qc2+
         25b3. Kf3  Qf5+ (obvious GK wont go this way)

    21c. Qf3  Ke8

         22c1. Qxb7 Bxb2
         23c1. Bxb6 Kf8
         24c1. Qd5 

    21d. b3    Nxe3
    22d. Qxe3 Ke8
         23d1. Rdd1 Ra5
         24d1. Qh3  Rh5
         25d1. Qe3  Kf8
         26d1. Rfe1

         23d2. Re1  Be5
         24d2. Qh6  Qc2
         25d2. Rd2  Qc3
         26d2. Rde2 Qd3
         27d2. Ra2 Qc3    

         23d3. Re1  Be5
         24d3. Qh6  Qc2
         25d3. Rd2  Qc3
         26d3. Rde2 Qd3 (perpetual threats to white's rook keep our 
h7 pawn form being taken.  how long can we keep it up?)

         23d4. Re1  Be5!
         24d4. Rc1  Ra1 (nice pin on white's rook)

         
    21e. Qf3  Qc6
         22e1. Qxf7 Bxb2
         23e1. Bg5  Qe4
         24e1. Rfd1 Bd4
         25e1. Qxh7      about equal

         22e2. Qxf7 Nxe3
         23e2. Rxe3 Be5
         24e2. Ree1 Rh8
         25e2. Rc1  Qe4  white does better here

         22e3. Qxf7 Bxb2
         23e3. Bg5  Qe4
         24e3. Rfd1 Qe5
         25e3. Rd5  Ra5  looks bad for black

         22e4. Qxf7 Bxb2
         23e4. Qxh7 Ra3
         24e4. Rxa3 Bxa3
         25e4. Qxg6  Black down a pawn

         22e5. Qxf7 Qe4
         23e5. Rb3  Nxe3
         24e5. fxe3 Qe5  This looks better for black

    19f. Ra2 Qc3
    20f. Kh1  Nxc1
    21f. Qxc1 Rc8
    22f. Qg5  Rc5
    23f. Qe3  Qxe3
    24f. fxe3 h5
    25f. Rhf3 Bxb2
    26f. Rxf7 Rc3
    27f. R7f3 Ra3
    28f. Rg3 Bf6
    29f. Rxg6 Rxe3
    30f. g3  Re4
    31f. Rh6 h4
    32f. Rfxf6 exf6
    33f. Rxh4 f5

On Sat Jul 24 02:06:19, BUSHMAN wrote:
> 18. Qb3  Nd4
> 19. Qxf2 Nc2 (Rook..move it or lose it)
> 20. Ra2  Ne1  (forces 21.f3)
> 21.  f3  Bd4+ (just a matter of time now!!)

I believe it was said that
20. Bd2 Nxa1 and
21. Re1   was bad for black.

On Sat Jul 24 02:11:54, Ken N. wrote:
>    Earlier, there were posts on the following, and some said that 20. 
> Bg5 and 22. Qh6 ruined this line for black. Has someone continued 
> looking at this in more detail? I can't see where it is so bad. I did 
> not use a computer; so I prolly missed something, but oh well:
> 
> 18. Qb3 Nd4
> 19. Qxf7 Ne6
> 20. Bg5 Nxg5
> 21. Qxg7 Ne6
> 22. Qh6 Nf4
> and now it seems the g2 pawn must be protected. With the f pawn, or 
> by the queen?
> 23. Qg5 Ra5 
> What am I missing? is this bad for white's queen, by check and queen 
> capture of re1 or f3?
> or 
> 22. Qf7 Rf8
> 23. Qxh7 Nf4
> 24. F3 Qd4+
> 25. Kh1 Qxb2 (threatens Qg2++) btw, this is similar to previous post 
> by GMC_Witali and Terrivan
> 26. Rg8 Rh8
> 27. Qf7 Ne2 If Rb2, Qd4, threatens mate or again the knight/rook trade
> 28. Rd1 Ng3+ and the position from here needs more analysis than I 
> can do without a computer! <perpetual, or if K moves to f1, then 
> rook can grab pawn, and white still has trouble.
> 
> or 
> 22. Qc3 Nf6 23. Qf3 and we can force the trade, and break up the 
> white king's pawns. Dunno if this would be good.
> 
> Anyway, Is there something I miss here? Might be worth looking at 
> further. 
> Disclaimer:
> any errors the product of a sleepless mind. ;)

Try this Ken:  What do you think? 
 

           18. Qb3  Nd4
           19. Qxf2 Nc2 (Rook..move it or lose it)
           20. Ra2  Ne1  (forces 21.f3)
           21.  f3  Bd4+ (just a matter of time now!!)
>

It does look like there is some decent play for Black.

17) ...   Qxe4
18) Qb3   Nd4
19) Qxf7  Nc2
20) Ra2?  Ne1
21) f3    Qe2
22) Rf2   Bd4!

And it's curtains for white.  If at move 20) instead

20) Qxg7  Nxa1
21) Qxh7  Nb3
22) Bg5   Re8

While Black's immediate mating threats are eliminated, Black gets 
good compensation for loss of material, keeps the Black King well 
guarded and threatens the eventual capture of White's a4 pawn.

The 18) Qb3  Nd4 line is more agressive on Black's part than the 18) 
Qb3 e6 line, and I believe is worth taking a good look at. 

Thoughts anyone?

Hi World team!

Barnet chess club have updated their illustrated analysis, and the 
preliminary work on the current position is at:-

http://www.gtryfon.demon.co.uk/bcc/

(click on Kasparov vs rest of world, then click current analysis)

Best wishes,

Tryfon

Dear "Plain English", please get it right: I do appreciate 
your contributions (they belong to my favourites on this board! - and 
I do like your nickname!!). I'd just love to see a valid (and 
hopefully final) word on 19.... Ne6. Regards, Sam

Hi folks!

I think the current stand of knowledge is that 
18.Qb3 Nd4,19.Qxf7 Nc2 is bad for black because of 20.Bd2 Nxa1;21.Re1 
Qh4;22.Qd5 Rf8;23.Qxb7 Ke8;24.g3!

and there is another problem in the 18.Qb3 e6 line:
19.Qxb6 Nd4;20.Bd2 Ra6;21.Qb4 Ne2;22.Kh1 Qxb4;
23.Bxb4 Rb6;24.Ba3 Bxb2;25.Rfb1 Bd4;26.Rxb6 Bxb6 Irina,FAQ because I 
don't see anything against 
27.Rb1 Kc6;28.Bxd6

Please tell me if you know more about this line.
Regards,
Wolfram

On Sat Jul 24 02:29:19, BUSHMAN wrote:
> On Sat Jul 24 02:19:40, ken N. wrote:
> > On Sat Jul 24 02:06:19, BUSHMAN wrote:
> > > 18. Qb3  Nd4
> > > 19. Qxf2 Nc2 (Rook..move it or lose it)
> > > 20. Ra2  Ne1  (forces 21.f3)
> > > 21.  f3  Bd4+ (just a matter of time now!!)
> > 
> > I believe it was said that
> > 20. Bd2 Nxa1 and
> > 21. Re1   was bad for black.
> 
> Do know why?
> 
> 21. Re1 Qh4
> 22.Qxg7 Nc2 looks good for black...trades pawn and             bishop 
> for a rook

Yes. it would go like this.
22. Qd5 Rb7
23. Qb5+ and black will eventually lose the rook, and maybe face 
mating lines by Rc1 and white's queen and bishops threats, while 
black's queen is stuck by tempo on the side of the board.

You may want to read my post concerning this and Ron Henley's follow 
up.  My post is at:

http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/dc/18983.asp

Just a Chess Player



On Sat Jul 24 02:32:37, Steve B wrote:
> It does look like there is some decent play for Black.
> 
> 17) ...   Qxe4
> 18) Qb3   Nd4
> 19) Qxf7  Nc2
> 20) Ra2?  Ne1
> 21) f3    Qe2
> 22) Rf2   Bd4!
> 
> And it's curtains for white.  If at move 20) instead
> 
> 20) Qxg7  Nxa1
> 21) Qxh7  Nb3
> 22) Bg5   Re8
> 
> While Black's immediate mating threats are eliminated, Black gets 
> good compensation for loss of material, keeps the Black King well 
> guarded and threatens the eventual capture of White's a4 pawn.
> 
> The 18) Qb3  Nd4 line is more agressive on Black's part than the 18) 
> Qb3 e6 line, and I believe is worth taking a good look at. 
> 
> Thoughts anyone?

On Sun Jul 25 20:00:12, richard bean wrote:
> after 18...Nd4 19. Qxf7 Bf6 20. Ra3 Ne2+ 21. Kh1
> Nxc1 22. Rxc1 Rc8 23. Raa1 Rxc1 24. Rxc1 Bxb2 25. Qc4
> Qxc4 26. Rxc4 Bf6, I cannot see how Black can possibly
> lose it.
> 
> White only has a, f, g and h pawns and would have
> to create a passed pawn to win.  After
> 
> 27. Rb4 Kc6 28. Rc4+ Kd5 29. Rc7 h5
> 30. Rxb7 Kc6 31. Rb8 g5
> 
> how will White *ever* create a passed pawn?

I can simplify even this line!  27. Rb4 Kc6 28. Rc4+ Kd7
repeating positions.

Let's face it...we only have two choices.

The voters look at the suggestions given by the analysts, and 
hopefully look at the board, and they vote for those moves with few 
exceptions.

On this move we have 3 analysts suggesting Nd4 and Irina suggesting 
f4.  One of those two will be the next move by Black.  If you have 
been following this game, you know that is a fact.  Also, you will 
know that it will be the move recommended by Ms. Krush.  

Why is Ms. Krush's move always the top vote getter?  Very simple: she 
gives in-depth analysis of WHY she is recommending that move.  The 
other analysts just say "I recommend xx".  Even the people 
that don't read this  bulletin board, want to know (even if they 
can't follow it), WHY??

A lot of people have said (including the Russian GM School) that this 
game is really Kasparov vs Krush.  I will admit that this seems to be 
the case, but for the very reasons I have given above.  

If the other analysts had taken the time to give a little analysis of 
WHY they think their move is best, and even better...discuss it with 
us here on this Board, other moves might have been made.  

The current f4 move is being claimed by the Russians. Who discovered 
it is really not important (to me), but if you have read their posts 
on this, you will see that  they KNEW that they had to convince Irina 
that it was the best move or it would FAIL.  

I have voted for a couple of Irina's suggestions, even though they 
were not popular here on this board and I have voted for f4 this 
time.  But, the bottom line is that we can talk all we want about e6 
or this or that, the FACT is that there are only 2 moves that have a 
chance of being voted in and f4 is the odds-on favorite.

If you want to "flame" me for bashing Irina, then please 
re-read what I have written.  I am NOT bashing Irina, I am VERY, VERY 
thankful that we have her on our  team.  If she had simply given the 
"book" move or the "safe" move, this would have been 
a very boring game.  As it is, I find it very exciting and it keeps 
my interest.  Thank you, Irina for all that you have been doing for 
our team.  The amount of time you have put into this (between playing 
tournament games yourself) is AMAZING!!

So, folks...you can discuss other moves but the fact of  life 
is...Black will move either f4 or Nd4.  Which do you think it will be 
and where do we go from there?

The Old Wood Pusher

Hi teammates,

Although Danny King has named 19 Bd2, 19 Bg5 and 19 Qf7 as the 
critical tests for Black I think one should not reject 19 Be3 out of 
hand.

It is clear that the bishop blocks the e-file and does also block the 
Ra1-a3-kingside manouvre which is very effective in certain other 
variations, but the move has some ideas. White intends to fight for 
the center by following up with Ra1-d1 and f2-f4 (when appropriate). 
It seems that after White's pieces are developed he does not have to 
be too fearful about losing his queenside pawns since that 1) opens 
space for the rooks 2) the indirect protection of Black's kingside 
pawns will not be there anymore (Black needs Be5 and a rook on the 
8th rank to protect h7 indirectly)

But I may show some (preliminary) lines:

18 ... f5 19 Be3 Qb4 20 Qf7 Be5 (as in FAQ)

21 Ra1-d1

probably leads to extremely double-edged play. I will look at the 
lines tomorrow in more depth (it is again much too late now for that) 
but unfortunately this will too late for the voters. So, I post a few 
sample lines and ask for your understanding if you find things are 
incomplete (for sure) or incorrect (I hope not):

a) 21... Qxb2 22 Rb1 Qe2!? 23 Rxb6!? Bxh2+ 24 Kxh2 Qxf1 25 Rxb7+ Kc8 
26 Rb6 Kd7 (seems to be the only move) 27 Rb7+ and = by repetition of 
moves.

b) 21... Qxa4 22 f4 Bxb2 23 Qxh7 Qb3 24 Rfe1 Bc3 25 Qxg6!? Bxe1 26 
Qxf5+ Kc7!? 27 Rxe1 looks unclear to me.

c) 21... Rxa4 allows 22 Qxh7 unclear.

Enjoy your analysis and good luck "World team",

Volker

On Mon Jul 26 00:01:00, Grandmaster2505 wrote:
> Have we (the world players) forgot the fact that we have FOUR 
> analysts and Danny King's commentary?
> 

No.

> Are we (the world players) going to continue to allow this game to 
> turn into a "match" between "Kasparov and Krush?"
> 

What is your problem? Thank goodness one of the
analysts is investing time and effort to coordinate
everyone's thoughts about this game. Ironically, f5
wasn't even her idea originally.

> Has anyone "bothered" to "read" Mr. Etienne Bacrot's 
> move analysis? "We have no choice, the move 18...Nd4 is 
> forced." - Etienne Bacrot
> 

Has Mr. Etienne Bacrot (or any of the other
three analysts) bothered to read anyone else's
analysis? At the very least, it's odd that "we have
no choice" other than Nd4 when several GM's have
publically advocated f5. If he's aware of f5 (or
e6, for that matter) and has some reason to reject
it, he should say why in his analysis.

> While "forced" can be debated... It is certainly obvious that 
> 18...Nd4 offers us our best chance to survive this game with a draw.
> 

Obvious to whom??

Unfortunately, it looks like we will play Nd4,
with a split vote on e6 and f5...

Has anybody checked the answer 19.Qf7 
19...Qd4 to protect Bg7 an h7
20.Re1, Rf8 and then
21.Qe6+  looks not so good for black

19...Qe5 would protect the bishop and keep him from doing Re1 (I 
think).

On Mon Jul 26 00:52:04, Montiggl wrote:
> Has anybody checked the answer 19.Qf7 
> 19...Qd4 to protect Bg7 an h7
> 20.Re1, Rf8 and then
> 21.Qe6+  looks not so good for black

On Mon Jul 26 01:05:44, BJ wrote:
> 19...Qe5 
> On Mon Jul 26 00:52:04, Montiggl wrote:
> > Has anybody checked the answer 19.Qf7 
> > 19...Qd4 to protect Bg7 an h7

I thought the FAQ would recommend
19... Bd4


Cheers
D.

On Mon Jul 26 01:46:15, David  wrote:
> 18...Bd4 19.Qxf7, Ne5 20.Qb3, Nd3 21.Ra3, Nxf2 22.Be3, Bxe3 23.Qxe3, 
> Qxe3 24.Rxe3, Ng4 leading into a good endgame for black with the 
> black knight attacking the rook and the black rook attacking the a4 
> pawn. So shouldn't we consider Bd4??? Any refutations with this move? 
A possible (mediocre) refutation would be 20.Qf4 Qxf4 21.Rxf4

Heres a line----if we use e6 right now, we will block in our king, & 
suffer for it.

18. .....e4
19. Qxb6, Nd4
20. a5, Ra6
21. f3, RxQ

22. PxQ, Rb3?? (no good cuz 23. Ra3,  & RxR, PxR
22.  ...a6??   ( 23. Be2,Nc2 ;  24. Rf3? )

OR//
20. a5, Qc6  (to trade)
21. Be3, QxQ(b6)
22. PxQ, A8xA1 Rook exchange)
23. F1xA1,  then white has the advantage.

Likely wont go this way, GK's smarter than me & may find a way to 
shove this pawn thru !

Either way, I think it's being GRAVELY ignored as a viable option.

21...Qxb2 22.Qxf7 Rxa4 23.Qxh7 Rg4 24.Qxg6 Nd4

(gm school up to here)

how about 25.Rxd4 (unconsidered
by GMschool but pretty obvious)
Qxd4 26.Qxf5+ e6 27.Qf7+ Kc6

(oh my goodness!!! it's failing high on crafty
as I speak... we are in deep trouble.  I
am posting RIGHT NOW so you can react fast!)

fortunately I think we can avoid this line
with 19...Be5.

On Mon Jul 26 02:35:18, richard bean wrote:
> 21...Qxb2 22.Qxf7 Rxa4 23.Qxh7 Rg4 24.Qxg6 Nd4
> 
> (gm school up to here)
> 
> how about 25.Rxd4 (unconsidered
> by GMschool but pretty obvious)
> Qxd4 26.Qxf5+ e6 27.Qf7+ Kc6
> 
> (oh my goodness!!! it's failing high on crafty
> as I speak... we are in deep trouble.  I
> am posting RIGHT NOW so you can react fast!)
> 
> fortunately I think we can avoid this line
> with 19...Be5.

That ...Be5 suggestion is wrong because I am thinking
about 19. Be3, not 19. Bg5.

I think that the way I. K. and co by completely ignoring me and 
others proposal of Bd4!  Qxf7  and then 19...Ra5!! is a fault with 
this  voting system. They ought to be more flexible and listen to the 
others, who have new ideas. Me and Otte ter Haah have 
demonstrated,that this possibility is a very serios alternative. In 
spite of this no response. But of cource it is problematic,the time 
is running, and it is hard work....
Leif Mikkelsen

MY ORIGINAL ANALISIS WILL BE SHORT BUT HOPEFULLY SHARP.

I THINK THAT AFTER 18...Nd4 (Which I hold best move) 
adter 19.Qxf7 Black has a very very nice move 19...Bf6!! (I -Spiriev- 
recommend to plaay this line) 
Now after for example 
20.Kh1 I think that BLack has 
Now 20...Nc2 !!
and after 21.Ra2 Black has 21...Ne1!!
I think that after You will check this line with all those 
supercompters Black will win the game in every variation. 
ORIGINAL ANALYSES MADE BY PETER SPIRIEV

Any comment????             

I would like to get a comment from Mr.Henly about this line if that 
is possibe!!

On Mon Jul 26 02:50:54, Spiriev Peter - My winning line!!!!!!! wrote:
> MY ORIGINAL ANALISIS WILL BE SHORT BUT HOPEFULLY SHARP.
> 
> I THINK THAT AFTER 18...Nd4 (Which I hold best move) 
> adter 19.Qxf7 Black has a very very nice move 19...Bf6!! (I -Spiriev- 
> recommend to plaay this line) 
> Now after for example 
> 20.Kh1 I think that BLack has 
> Now 20...Nc2 !!
> and after 21.Ra2 Black has 21...Ne1!!
> I think that after You will check this line with all those 
> supercompters Black will win the game in every variation. 
> ORIGINAL ANALYSES MADE BY PETER SPIRIEV
> 
> Any comment????             
> 
> I would like to get a comment from Mr.Henly about this line if that 
> is possibe!!


Spiriev,

Have you had a look at smartchess faq on this move?
19...Bf6 has been analysed deeply with white's best reply 20.Ra3 and 
best play on both sides is more likely a draw

what is the best response to 20.Ra3 ??

William

Sorry guys I told You I have no comuters but I feel somehow that 
after 19...Bf6!! there must be something for Black even after 20.Ra3 
. I will check it again 
   

On Mon Jul 26 02:58:23, richard bean wrote:
> On Mon Jul 26 02:50:54, Spiriev Peter - My winning line!!!!!!! wrote:
> > MY ORIGINAL ANALISIS WILL BE SHORT BUT HOPEFULLY SHARP.
> > 
> > I THINK THAT AFTER 18...Nd4 (Which I hold best move) 
> > adter 19.Qxf7 Black has a very very nice move 19...Bf6!! (I -Spiriev- 
> > recommend to plaay this line) 
> > Now after for example 
> > 20.Kh1 I think that BLack has 
> > Now 20...Nc2 !!
> > and after 21.Ra2 Black has 21...Ne1!!
> > I think that after You will check this line with all those 
> > supercompters Black will win the game in every variation. 
> > ORIGINAL ANALYSES MADE BY PETER SPIRIEV
> > 
> > Any comment????             
> > 
> > I would like to get a comment from Mr.Henly about this line if that 
> > is possibe!!
> 
> I agree with you.  I still haven't had *anyone*
> explain to me why the endgame isn't a draw after
> 18...Nd4 19.Qxf7 Bf6 20.Ra3 Ne2+ 21.Kh1 Nxc1
> 22.Rxc1 Rc8 23.Raa1 Rxc1 24.Rxc1 Bxb2 25.Qc4 Qxc4
> 26.Rxc4 Bf6, when I cannot see how White can
> create a passed pawn.

no new text, it just seems that no-one has
read my message...

:)

On Mon Jul 26 02:58:41, Spiriev Peter  - AM I RIGHT?  wrote:
> Please comment on this line.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon Jul 26 02:50:54, Spiriev Peter - My winning line!!!!!!! wrote:
> > MY ORIGINAL ANALISIS WILL BE SHORT BUT HOPEFULLY SHARP.
> > 
> > I THINK THAT AFTER 18...Nd4 (Which I hold best move) 
> > adter 19.Qxf7 Black has a very very nice move 19...Bf6!! (I -Spiriev- 
> > recommend to plaay this line) 
> > Now after for example 
> > 20.Kh1 I think that BLack has 
> > Now 20...Nc2 !!
> > and after 21.Ra2 Black has 21...Ne1!!
> > I think that after You will check this line with all those 
> > supercompters Black will win the game in every variation. 
> > ORIGINAL ANALYSES MADE BY PETER SPIRIEV
> > 
> > Any comment????             
> > 
> > I would like to get a comment from Mr.Henly about this line if that 
> > is possibe!!

You are right.
After 20.Kh1? Nc2 21.Ra2 Ne1! 22.f3 Qe2 black wins.

20.Ra3! is the strongest move.

On Mon Jul 26 03:09:57, mark falade wrote:
> :)


Yes, you want to see my post on

...f5 Bg5 Qd4 below which refutes the whole
gmschool suggested line.  is anyone listening?!?!?!

On Mon Jul 26 02:58:23, richard bean wrote:
> On Mon Jul 26 02:50:54, Spiriev Peter - My winning line!!!!!!! wrote:
> > MY ORIGINAL ANALISIS WILL BE SHORT BUT HOPEFULLY SHARP.
> > 
> > I THINK THAT AFTER 18...Nd4 (Which I hold best move) 
> > adter 19.Qxf7 Black has a very very nice move 19...Bf6!! (I -Spiriev- 
> > recommend to plaay this line) 
> > Now after for example 
> > 20.Kh1 I think that BLack has 
> > Now 20...Nc2 !!
> > and after 21.Ra2 Black has 21...Ne1!!
> > I think that after You will check this line with all those 
> > supercompters Black will win the game in every variation. 
> > ORIGINAL ANALYSES MADE BY PETER SPIRIEV
> > 
> > Any comment????             
> > 
> > I would like to get a comment from Mr.Henly about this line if that 
> > is possibe!!
> 
> I agree with you.  I still haven't had *anyone*
> explain to me why the endgame isn't a draw after
> 18...Nd4 19.Qxf7 Bf6 20.Ra3 Ne2+ 21.Kh1 Nxc1
> 22.Rxc1 Rc8 23.Raa1 Rxc1 24.Rxc1 Bxb2 25.Qc4 Qxc4
> 26.Rxc4 Bf6, when I cannot see how White can
> create a passed pawn.

If your analysis holds up, Black has nothing to fear.  I'm feeling 
pretty confident now that the three best moves the World can make 
(18...Nd4, 18...f5, and maybe even ...e6) are OK for Black.

On Mon Jul 26 02:35:18, richard bean wrote:
> 21...Qxb2 22.Qxf7 Rxa4 23.Qxh7 Rg4 24.Qxg6 Nd4

Which move are you thinking white will take for his twentieth?  And 
black's bishop is still at g7, making 23.Qxh7 impossible.

MY ORIGINAL ANALISIS WILL BE SHORT BUT HOPEFULLY SHARP.

I THINK THAT AFTER 18...Nd4 (Which I hold best move) 
adter 19.Qxf7 Black has a very very nice move 19...Bf6!! (I -Spiriev- 
recommend to plaay this line) 
Now after for example 
And what about if 
After 20.Ra3! Nc2 21.Kh1 Nxc1 22.Rxc1 Rc8!
23.Bd1 Rc2! 24.Rf3 but now I think Black has 24....Rc1 25.Rg1 Re1 
26.h3 Be5 with a clear draw -Or am I missing again something ?

For the weaker 20.Kh1? I think that BLack has 
Now 20...Nc2 !!
and after 21.Ra2 Black has 21...Ne1!!
I think that after You will check this line with all those 
supercompters Black will win the game in every variation. 
ORIGINAL ANALYSES MADE BY PETER SPIRIEV

Any comment????             

I would like to get a comment from Mr.Henly about this line if that 
is possibe!!
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

             

Message thread:

FOR THE TEAM - Please Mr.Henly listen!! - Spiriev Peter - My winning 
line!!!!!!! Mon Jul 26 02:50:54 
Re: FOR THE TEAM - Please Mr.Henly listen!! - FastIM Mon Jul 26 
02:55:59 
Re: FOR THE TEAM - Please Mr.Henly listen!! - richard bean Mon Jul 26 
02:58:23 
Re: FOR THE TEAM - Please Mr.Henly listen!! - Spiriev Peter Alain Mon 
Jul 26 03:02:16 
Re: FOR THE TEAM - Please Mr.Henly listen!! - Aljechin1 Mon Jul 26 
03:13:00 
Please Mr.Henley comment on this line - Spiriev Peter - AM I RIGHT? 
Mon Jul 26 02:58:41 
Re: Please Mr.Henley comment on this line - FastIM Mon Jul 26 
03:09:57 
Re: FOR THE TEAM - Please Mr.Henly listen!! - William B Peden Mon Jul 
26 03:02:11  
 



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On Mon Jul 26 03:25:55, Shallow Red wrote:
> On Mon Jul 26 02:35:18, richard bean wrote:
> > 21...Qxb2 22.Qxf7 Rxa4 23.Qxh7 Rg4 24.Qxg6 Nd4
> 
> Which move are you thinking white will take for his twentieth?  And 
> black's bishop is still at g7, making 23.Qxh7 impossible.

sorry... I was in such a hurry I didn't type it.
it is the main gmschool line:

18... f5 19. Bg5 Qd4 20. Rfe1 Be5 21. Rad1...

What happens between 18...f5 19.Bg5 Qd4 and 21...Qxb2 22.Qxf7 Rxa4 
etc.?  I can't seem to figure out where the rest of your line is... 
but I'm just a sleep-deprived amatuer and a lurker here, so maybe I'm 
just out of it.  You mention (gm school up to here)... that's not 
helping me fill in the blanks.  I don't see anything in the FAQ that 
contains the moves you listed as "gm school."  Clarify please?

Thanx



On Mon Jul 26 02:38:16, richard bean wrote:
> On Mon Jul 26 02:35:18, richard bean wrote:
> > 21...Qxb2 22.Qxf7 Rxa4 23.Qxh7 Rg4 24.Qxg6 Nd4
> > 
> > (gm school up to here)
> > 
> > how about 25.Rxd4 (unconsidered
> > by GMschool but pretty obvious)
> > Qxd4 26.Qxf5+ e6 27.Qf7+ Kc6
> > 
> > (oh my goodness!!! it's failing high on crafty
> > as I speak... we are in deep trouble.  I
> > am posting RIGHT NOW so you can react fast!)
> > 
> > fortunately I think we can avoid this line
> > with 19...Be5.
> 
> That ...Be5 suggestion is wrong because I am thinking
> about 19. Be3, not 19. Bg5.

On Mon Jul 26 03:30:05, Perplexed Lurker wrote:
> 
> What happens between 18...f5 19.Bg5 Qd4 and 21...Qxb2 22.Qxf7 Rxa4 
> etc.?  I can't seem to figure out where the rest of your line is... 
> but I'm just a sleep-deprived amatuer and a lurker here, so maybe I'm 
> just out of it.  You mention (gm school up to here)... that's not 
> helping me fill in the blanks.  I don't see anything in the FAQ that 
> contains the moves you listed as "gm school."  Clarify please?

OK... see my post below.  Sorry, I was in too much
of a hurry to post and didn't type all the moves.  The busted line is 
D1f
in Krush's current analysis.

MY ORIGINAL ANALISIS WILL BE SHORT BUT HOPEFULLY SHARP.
I THINK THAT AFTER 18...Nd4 (Which I hold best move) 
adter 19.Qxf7 Black has a very very nice move 19...Bf6!! (I -Spiriev- 
recommend to plaay this line) Now after for example And what about if 
After 20.Ra3! Nc2 21.Kh1 Nxc1 22.Rxc1 Rc8!
23.Rd1 Rc2! 24.Rf3 but now I think Black has 24....Re2 25.Rg1 Re1 
26.h3 Be5 with a clear draw -Or am I missing again something ?
For the weaker 20.Kh1? I think that BLack has Now 20...Nc2 !!
and after 21.Ra2 Black has 21...Ne1!!
I think that after You will check this line with all those 
supercompters Black will win the game in every variation. 
ORIGINAL ANALYSES MADE BY PETER SPIRIEVAny comment????             
I would like to get a comment from Mr.Henly about this line if that 
is possibe!!

On Mon Jul 26 04:45:52, richard bean wrote:
> On Mon Jul 26 04:38:47, AgentEE7 wrote:
> > On Mon Jul 26 03:29:04, richard bean wrote:
> > > On Mon Jul 26 03:25:55, Shallow Red wrote:
> > > > On Mon Jul 26 02:35:18, richard bean wrote:
> > > > > 21...Qxb2 22.Qxf7 Rxa4 23.Qxh7 Rg4 24.Qxg6 Nd4
> 
> 
> 
> reply to below:
> 
> 28. Qxe7 is checkmate, so 24...Bxh2 just loses a
> bishop.  Thanks for replying, though.

   Of course!

> 
> 
> 
> 
> >  18... f5 19.Bg5 Qd4 20.Rfe1 Be5 21.Rad1 Qxb2 22.Qf7 Rxe4 23.Qxh7 Rg4 
> > 24.Qg6 Nd4 25.Rxd4 is good for White;
> 
> 
> 
> >  24... Bxh2+ 25.Kxh2 (25.Kf1 Qb5+ 26.Re2 Nd4; 25. Kh1 Qxf2) 25... 
> > Qxf2 26.Rxe7+ Nxe7 27.Qxd6+ Ke8 is good for Black.

On Mon Jul 26 03:29:04, richard bean wrote:
> 
> 18... f5 19. Bg5 Qd4 20. Rfe1 Be5 21. Rad1...

GM School recommends:

> 21... Qxb2 22.Qf7 Rxa4 23.Qxh7 Rg4

Maybe we should try 23... Ra2 24. Rf1 Bd4

But what do you think about the endgame after:
25. Rd2 Qxd2 26. Bxd2 Rxd2 27.Qxg6 e6

After Qb3, I'm feeling much better that Kasparov is not reading our 
posts here.  f5 has been known for some days, but I think it really 
is a surprise for Kasparov.

f5 instead of e6 (blocking g5-d8) was nice and creative, and The 
World has the resources to exploit that creativity.  Kasparov will be 
struggling to get a draw.  But I hope he doesn't force one, so we can 
attack his King (Bd4, f4, Ne5, f3, and the magic ingredient moves to 
a5 unless other opportunities open up).

Plus, I really like what Irina has done this time on the analyst 
site.  She is now in accord with the other analysts, who always 
sought to gear their remarks to to the many fans who have difficulty 
following notation.

On Mon Jul 26 04:54:39, Wolf wrote:
> On Mon Jul 26 03:29:04, richard bean wrote:
> > 
> > 18... f5 19. Bg5 Qd4 20. Rfe1 Be5 21. Rad1...
> 
> GM School recommends:
> 
> > 21... Qxb2 22.Qf7 Rxa4 23.Qxh7 Rg4
> 
> Maybe we should try 23... Ra2 24. Rf1 Bd4
> 
> But what do you think about the endgame after:
> 25. Rd2 Qxd2 26. Bxd2 Rxd2 27.Qxg6 e6

Looks fine for Black.  I'm not sure  
if this line makes 19...Nd4 look better or not.

Perhaps 23...Ra2 makes the line OK again,
although the GM school rejected it because of:

(the following is worse: 23...Ra2 24.Rf1! Qb3 25.Qxg6 Qe6 (
   25...Nd4 26.Rb1 Qe6 27.Qxe6 Nxe6 28.Be3 d5 29.Rxb6 +/-) 26.Qxe6 
Kxe6
   27.Rd1 Bd4 28.Be3! and White has large chances to win)

(CA) = Computer Analysis enclosed.  Read at your own risk!

I set up Fritz 5.32 in infinite analysis mode to look at the line 
suggested by the Russian GM School.  Fritz worked on this for almost 
15 hours and went to 15 ply.
After 18...f5
19.Bg5 Qd4
20.Rfe1 Be5
21.Rad1

Analysis by Fritz 5.32:

= (-0.06): 21...Qxa4 22.Qf7 h6 23.Be3 Qh4 24.h3 Bxb2 25.Qxg6 
= (0.03): 21...Qxb2 22.Qf7 Rxa4 23.Qxh7 Ra2 24.Rf1 Qb5 25.Qxg6 Bd4 
26.Qf7 
˜ (0.84): 21...Qg4 22.f4 Bxf4 23.Bxe7 Nxe7 24.Qe6+ Kc7 25.Qxe7+ Kb8 
26.Rxd6 
™ (0.44): 21...Qc5 22.Bd2 Ra6 23.Bc3 Bxc3 24.bxc3 Ne5 25.Rd4 h6 
26.Re3 
+- (2.81): 21...Qb4 22.Qxb4 Nxb4 23.Rxe5 Nc6 24.Rb5 Rxa4 25.Be3 Ra2 
26.b4 

I just got home from work so I have not had the time to look at any 
of these lines.  I wanted to get this posted as soon as possible.  

Just a Chess Player

On Mon Jul 26 02:35:18, richard bean wrote:
> 21...Qxb2 22.Qxf7 Rxa4 23.Qxh7 Rg4 24.Qxg6 Nd4

Hmm... I think it's ok if we take the rook pawn instead, i.e. 21. 
...Qxa4.

See analysis at 
http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/al/22594.asp

You can still vote f5 with a clear conscience. :)


Regards,
Enpassant.

Has the GM school posted their analysis fater move 18 yet?

The Russian GM school suggested:
19. Bg5 Qd4
20. Rfe1 Be5
21. Rad1 Qxb2
22. Qf7 Rxa4
23. Qxh7 Rg4
24. Qxg6
As the best continuation for white, but it loses after:
24... Bxh2!!
Now white has three options, all of them lose:
a)25. Kxh2 Qxf2
  26. Rg1 Rh4
  27. Bxh4 Qxh4++
b)25. Kh1 Qxf2
c)25. Kf1 Qc4
  26. Re2 Nd4
Winning for Black.
Any further analysis is greatly appreciated.

Rigel

I still think the 20. ... Qxb2 line is OK but Brian McCarthy has 
gotten to me. So I am leaving my computer running overnight on:

21.h3 Rh8 22.Rfd1 (22.Ra2 Ra4 is good) f4! 23.Bh6 Bf6 24.Ra2 f3 whre 
F5.32 gives 25.Bd2 at d11 and -0.19.

More HELP needed!

And, meanwhile, is anyone looking at 19. ... Nd4?

> And, meanwhile, is anyone looking at 19. ... Nd4?

No guarantees, but I don't know where to improve this for Black. 
Seems like knight move fatally weakens e7.

On Mon Jul 26 18:47:31, kh wrote:
> Best line for Black I could find, and that's not saying much:
> 
> 19. Bg5    Nd4
> 20. Qf7    Ne2+
> 21. Kh1    Bxb2
> 22. Rb1    Bd4 (22. ... Bc3 23. Rb6 Rb8 Rfb1 +-)
> 23. f3     Qe5
> 24. Rfe1   h6
> 25. Bd2!   Bf2
> 26. Bf4    Qxf4
> 27. Rxe2   Be3
> 28. Rbe1   +-
> 
> --Keith

Where are all the Qb4 analysts?  :-)

20. ... Be5 may have some problems with f4 - and no one has come to 
its rescue.

20. ... Qxb2 has not been shown to be bad. (The Nasty line is not 
nasty.)

Does anyone have any information that confirms this or casts doubt on 
it?

Thanks.

Curious

On Mon Jul 26 22:42:18, Curious wrote:
> Where are all the Qb4 analysts?  :-)
> 
> 20. ... Be5 may have some problems with f4 - and no one has come to 
> its rescue.
> 
> 20. ... Qxb2 has not been shown to be bad. (The Nasty line is not 
> nasty.)
> 
> Does anyone have any information that confirms this or casts doubt on 
> it?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Curious

He moves shortly and then we will know, f4 seems to hold up, but it 
needs more work. It is not the only candidate there either. I think 
he will follow the 1.3 billion ply line and grab the pawn, everything 
else leaves open the chance he might lose.

This was the last SmartChess had to say about Qxb2 before turning 
their attention to Be5...

Subject: 19.Bg5 Qb4 - Curious
SmartChess Online 
ppp-28.rb5.exit109.com
Mon Jul 26 19:23:27 

19.Bg5 Qb4 ("Curious") 20.Qf7 Qxb2 

A) 21.Rad1 Rf8 ("Curious") 22.Rxd6+?! (22.Qd5 Qe5 23.Qb3 Qb2 
24.Qc4 Qc3 25.Qa2 Qb2 26.Qc4 Qc3 27.Qb5 Qb2 28.Qc4 Qc3, equal?) 
22...Kxd6 23.Rd1+ Bd4 24.Qxf8 Qxf2+ 25.Kh1 Qe2 -/+ 

B) 21.Rab1 Qd4,

B1) 22.Rbd1 Rf8 23.Qb3 Qb2 = (23.Qxf8 Bxf8 24.Rxd4 Nxd4 =/+)

B2) 22.Rfd1 Rf8 23.Qb3 (23.Qxf8 Qxd1+ 24.Rxd1 Bxf8 25.Rb1 e5 26.Rxb6 
Kc7 =/+) 23...Qg4, and what is happening here?

http://www.comicastle.com/cgi-bin/pgn.pl?T1=07271.pgn

99%
Soon an up-to-date direct link will be available, stay tuned.

On Mon Jul 26 23:06:02, SmartChess Online wrote:
> Available at SmartChess Online
> http://www.smartchess.com/SmartChessOnline/
> Click on "Garry Kasparov versus The World"
> Click on "Irina Analysis FAQ"
> 
> Downloads in CBV/PGN - zipped 12kB, CBV 7kB, PGN 15kB
> 
> Please check the new stuff on 19.Bg5 Qb4

19...Qd4 or 19...Qb4 - that is the question.

On Tue Jul 27 00:41:04, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> 19...Qd4 or 19...Qb4 - that is the question.

19 ...Qb4 is very nice and whilst hardly subtle is in a way a more 
oblique line that will be less to GKs taste

Moving the knight is best. 
after Rae1 Kasparov can threaten 2 e file squares. 

Rxe7 and Qe6+ 

after Nd4 he can't threaten Qe6+ or Qxb7+ anymore. 

vs Bg5 Consider 3 mainlines.
Nd4,Qb4 and Qd4 I don't like Qd4 as it takes square of where our 
knight should go. so either Qb4 or Nd4 vs Bg5.


if 19. Qxb6 black should win.

19.Qxb6, Nd4
20.Kh1, Ra6
21.Qb4, Nc2
22.Qxe4, fxe4
23.Ra2, Nb4
24.Ra3, Nd3
25.Rb3, Kc6
26.f3, Bd4
27.fxe4, Nf2+
28.Rxf2, Bxf2

Any thoughts?

On Tue Jul 27 00:41:04, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> 19...Qd4 or 19...Qb4 - that is the question.

I'm not a great player, but I am running crafty
on >20 computers.

I think they're about the same, though personally
I like the positions after ...Qb4 better.  Less
rooks pointing menacingly at the king.

if 19...Qb4 20.Qf7 Be5 21.h3 Rh8 (...f4?!) 22.Rad1 (unconsidered in 
FAQ) Qxb2 (what else?),
then 23.Rb1 is showing about +0.65 for W
currently (15 ply) (23...Qd4 24.Rfe1 etc)

if 19...Qd4 20.Rfe1 Be5 21.Rad1 Qxb2 22.Qf7 Rxa4
23.Qxh7 Ra2 24.Rf1 Bd4 25.Rd2 almost forcing a Q/BNPP
ending (yuk) is about +0.27 for W
(15 ply), but I don't think this is deep enough.

if 25...Qb3 26.Qxg6 as in the FAQ, White just
looks like he's a clear pawn up.

the moves which should have been considered more
apparently do better.

if 19...Nd4 20.Qf7 Ne2+ 21.Kh1 Bxb2 22.f3 Qe5
23.Rab1 Bd4 24.Rfe1, we have ...f4! (-0.05 for Black
at 15 ply)  Hasn't been analysed enough though,
e.g. 25.Bh4 g5 26.Bxg5 Ng3+ 27.hxg3 Qxg5 looks OK.

if 19...Be5 (my preference, why not
swap the move around and not commit our queen,
also crafty's preference), we have

a. 20.Kh1 Qb4 (h6?!) is ok.

b. 20.Qxb6 Nd4 21.Kh1 Qc6 (as in many other lines) and
looks fine.

c. 20.Qf7 f4 looks slightly better for Black.  (cursory analysis)

Disclaimer: I am fairly happy with the ...Be5
analysis but choosing ...Qb4 over ...Qd4 is just
a feeling I have.

Irina, my line is still not mentioned in the FAQ:

19. Bg5 Qd4 20. Rfe1 Be5 21. Qf7!?

This is subtly different from the other variations which also involve 
Qf7.  Then if 21... Qxb2:

22. Rab1 Qd4 23. h3! Rxa4 24. Qxh7 f4 25. Qxg6 Ra2 26. Rf1!

There are many other lines too that I posted before.
Or maybe you have found an obvious refutation?  Either
way I think it should be added to the FAQ for completeness.

Thanks,

Capa

Available at SmartChess Online
http://www.smartchess.com/SmartChessOnline/
Click on "Garry Kasparov versus The World"
Click on "Irina Analysis FAQ"

Downloads in 
CBV/PGN - zipped
CBV 
PGN

On Tue Jul 27 02:08:10, David wrote:
> 19.Qxb6, Nd4
> 20.Kh1, Ra6
> 21.Qb4, Nc2
> 22.Qxe4, fxe4
> 23.Ra2, Nb4
> 24.Ra3, Nd3
> 25.Rb3, Kc6
> 26.f3, Bd4
> 27.fxe4, Nf2+
> 28.Rxf2, Bxf2
> 
> Any thoughts? 

22. Qb5+

19. Bg5 Qb4
20. Qf7 Be5
21. Qxh7 Rh8 <bishop can take b2; after which Rb1>
22. Qxg6 Bxh2+ <or is that suppposed to be the rook?
23. Kh8 Bg4
24. Kg8 Bxg5
25. Qxf5+ Kd8
26. Qxg5 Qh4
27. Qxh4 Rxh4

What did black do wrong here? This ending favors white, right?

On Tue Jul 27 02:08:10, David wrote:
> 19.Qxb6, Nd4
> 20.Kh1, Ra6
> 21.Qb4, Nc2
> 22.Qxe4, fxe4
> 23.Ra2, Nb4
> 24.Ra3, Nd3
> 25.Rb3, Kc6
> 26.f3, Bd4
> 27.fxe4, Nf2+
> 28.Rxf2, Bxf2
> 
> Any thoughts? 

I agree with it up to & including move 24 for W & B.
The whole 19.Qxb6 line looks fine for Black.
It's 19.Bg5 which is a real problem.

Come on! I can't be the only one who thinks hunting for the b2 pawn 
in the line 19.Be3 Qb4 20.Qxb4 Nxb4 21.Bxb6 Nd3 is bad! 21...Nd5! is 
_much_ better. Where do white then play his bishop? 22...f4 is 
pending...

And besides, the Knight is realy great on b5. Protecting and 
dominating.

In general, we should leave the b2 pawn alone. Taking it givs Garry a 
semi open line to our biggest weakness, the double issolated pawns.

-- 
Sean

On Tue Jul 27 02:08:10, David wrote:
> 19.Qxb6, Nd4
> 20.Kh1, Ra6
> 21.Qb4, Nc2
> 22.Qxe4, fxe4
> 23.Ra2, Nb4
> 24.Ra3, Nd3
> 25.Rb3, Kc6
> 26.f3, Bd4
> 27.fxe4, Nf2+
> 28.Rxf2, Bxf2
> 
> Any thoughts? 
- White does not move 19.Qxb6
- most likely white will move 19.Bg5 uniting his both rooks in order 
to put some unpleasant pressure on our 
king...

.

After:

19.Qxb6 Nd4 20.Bd2 Ra6 21.Qb4 Qc6 22.a5 Nc2 23.Qb3 Nxa1 24.Rxa1 e6, 
GM School gives =+.

But 25.Rc1 Qe4 26.Re1 either forces a draw by repetition or 26.... 
Qd5 27.Qxd5 exd5, which I don't like at all for Black. Please take a 
look.

Peter

Okay, but I am sure Irina Krush has found a line against Bg5...if you 
look just a few posts below this one...

On Tue Jul 27 02:46:42, realist3 wrote:
> On Tue Jul 27 02:08:10, David wrote:
> > 19.Qxb6, Nd4
> > 20.Kh1, Ra6
> > 21.Qb4, Nc2
> > 22.Qxe4, fxe4
> > 23.Ra2, Nb4
> > 24.Ra3, Nd3
> > 25.Rb3, Kc6
> > 26.f3, Bd4
> > 27.fxe4, Nf2+
> > 28.Rxf2, Bxf2
> > 
> > Any thoughts? 
> - White does not move 19.Qxb6
> - most likely white will move 19.Bg5 uniting his both rooks in order 
> to put some unpleasant pressure on our 
> king...

On Tue Jul 27 02:42:21, ken N. wrote:
> 19. Bg5 Qb4
> 20. Qf7 Be5
> 21. Qxh7 Rh8 
> 22. Qxg6 Bxh2+ 
> 23. Kh1 

23...Qg4 wins for Black. 21.Qxh7 is a ??

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Team!!!!!!!!

On Tue Jul 27 03:28:19, richard bean wrote:
> 19.Bg5 Qb4 20.Qf7 Be5 21.h3 Rh8 22.Rad1 Qxb2
> 23.Rb1 Qd4 24.Rfe1
> 
> what do you think of black's position here?

21... Rh8 pretty much makes a mockery of our earlier Ra8 move, eh?

> a few posts down I recommended ...Qb4
> over ...Qd4 for reasons like this but crafty
> dislikes Black's position for some reason (-1.14)

FYI, a negative score in crafty means it favors Black.

Capa

On Tue Jul 27 03:35:04, Jose Capablanca wrote:
> On Tue Jul 27 03:28:19, richard bean wrote:
> > 19.Bg5 Qb4 20.Qf7 Be5 21.h3 Rh8 22.Rad1 Qxb2
> > 23.Rb1 Qd4 24.Rfe1
> > 
> > what do you think of black's position here?
> 
> 21... Rh8 pretty much makes a mockery of our earlier Ra8 move, eh?

yep.  I looked at ...h6 but it was rubbish.
I really like 19...Be5 now.  Crafty's recommendations
after 19...Qb4 follow the above line exactly, I
have computers on each of them (after 19...Qb4,
it recommends 20.Qf7, after 20.Qf7, it
recommends Be5, etc)
> 
> > a few posts down I recommended ...Qb4
> > over ...Qd4 for reasons like this but crafty
> > dislikes Black's position for some reason (-1.14)
> 
> FYI, a negative score in crafty means it favors Black.

I'm not using it with winboard or xboard, I'm using
it from the command line.  I forced the line above
with black to play and the evaluation is -1.14,
which means Black is losing.  What do people think
of that evaluation?

I saw, the analysts suggestions weren't very convincing. My 
suggestion is Be5, a wonderful, aggressive and defending place for 
the bishop. The main idea is, besides the obvious blocking of the 
e-line, the threat f4, to get hold of the white bishop. If black now 
takes Qb6, one plays Rc8. Etcetera etcetera.

On Tue Jul 27 14:56:20, Fredrik Agell wrote:
> I saw, the analysts suggestions weren't very convincing. My 
> suggestion is Be5, a wonderful, aggressive and defending place for 
> the bishop. The main idea is, besides the obvious blocking of the 
> e-line, the threat f4, to get hold of the white bishop. If black now 
> takes Qb6, one plays Rc8. Etcetera etcetera. 

I like it and I haven't seen this move on the strategy 
board yet.

19 ... Be5

A 20 Qg7  (has no teeth)
     ...  h6
  21 Bxh6 Rh8
  22 Bg5  Bxh2+
  23 Kh1  Bf4+ (captures Bishop next move)

B 21 Qxb6

On Tue Jul 27 15:28:44, allen everhart wrote:
> On Tue Jul 27 14:56:20, Fredrik Agell wrote:
> > I saw, the analysts suggestions weren't very convincing. My 
> > suggestion is Be5, a wonderful, aggressive and defending place for 
> > the bishop. The main idea is, besides the obvious blocking of the 
> > e-line, the threat f4, to get hold of the white bishop. If black now 
> > takes Qb6, one plays Rc8. Etcetera etcetera. 
> 
> I like it and I haven't seen this move on the strategy 
> board yet.
> 
> 19 ... Be5
> 
> A 20 Qg7  (has no teeth)
>      ...  h6
>   21 Bxh6 Rh8
>   22 Bg5  Bxh2+
>   23 Kh1  Bf4+ (captures Bishop next move)
> 
> B 21 Qxb6  

What is 20 Qg7??? do you mean Qf7.  What??? You are depending on the 
white Bishop to take the Pawn then move out of the way?  Hmmmm your 
Be5-h2 goes right through the Bishop standing on f4.  I would think 
the Bishop would be back on g5.

I understand... you didn't take enough time to think through your 
moves... please try again. with a more complete and PRECISE set of 
moves.

I plan to vote for Qb4, given that:

1. The latest FAQ supports it;
2. Nd4 is not as well analyzed, and I have yet seen a 
counter-refutation to at least one refutation line below, and even if 
that specific hole is plugged, I don't think it can realistically get 
the scrutiny of the Krush team; and
3. I trust Irina's objectivity, and she is behind it

F

Points of 19. ...Bd4:
guarding b6
guarding bishop twice
gaining ground for g7-bishop
pinning White's f-pawn to his King
preventing advances f2-f3 and f2-f4
(For computer analyses, create a personality with the computer's best 
play but W. Steinitz' preferences for king safety, so that the 
virtues of White's f-pawn advances will not be much offset by general 
king safety considerations)

* I doubt our ability to punish Kasparov for f2-f3 or f2-f4.  He can 
do without his b-pawn.  Therefore, king safety is worth less in this 
position than the computers assume.

19....Bd4 20. Rae1 Qg4 21. h4 h6 22. Bxh6 Qxh4 23. B...

Good luck
 --Kevin

The GM School just magically chose Irina's move,
19...Qb4 as the response to 19. Bg5, reversing their 19....Qd4 
"forced move" from yesterday.

(No analysis given.  Just "New idea".)

GM School picks Qb4 (was: Qd4)

On Tue Jul 27 15:53:01, Fritz wrote:
> I plan to vote for Qb4, given that:
> 
> 1. The latest FAQ supports it;
> 2. Nd4 is not as well analyzed, and I have yet seen a 
> counter-refutation to at least one refutation line below, and even if 
> that specific hole is plugged, I don't think it can realistically get 
> the scrutiny of the Krush team; and
> 3. I trust Irina's objectivity, and she is behind it

There are serious problems in the
19...Qb4 20.Qf7! Be5 21.h3! Rh8 22.Rad1! Qxb2 23.Rb1 Qd4
line, because as far as I can see Irina has not
considered 22.Rad1 (computer chess team analysis).

(21...f4?! may save us)
The computer chess team recommends 19...Be5.

take a look at this to demonstrate the soundness
of 19...Be5:
http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/is/24812.asp

I & the computer chess team recommends 19...Be5

I have analyzed the position after 19...Qb4
on a celeron 450, crafty 16.14 for 15 hours.
It recommends 20.Qf7.

I have analyzed the position after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7
on a (different) celeron 450, crafty 16.14 for 15 hrs.
It recommends 20...Be5

I have analyzed the position after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7
Be5 on a (still another) celeron 450, crafty 16.14
for 15 hrs.  It recommends 21.h3.

I have analyzed the position after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7
Be5 21.h3 on a (yet another) celeron 450, crafty
16.14 for 15 hrs.  It recommends 21...f4?! (+0.54
for white).

I have analyzed the position after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7
Be5 21.h3 Rh8 on a (yes another) celeron 450,
crafty 16.14 for 16 hrs.  It recommends 22.Rad1.

On another computer, same software, same time,
after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7 Be5 21.h3 Rh8 22.Rad1,
it recommends 22...Qxa4 (-1.01 for Black,
we are starting to lose it).

On another c450 computer, same software, same time,
after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7 Be5 21.h3 Rh8 22.Rad1 Qxb2
23.Rb1, it recommends 23...Qd4 and the situation
is looking very bad for black (-1.22).

So unless you want to play 21...f4 or can
recommend another alternative at move 20 (...Qxb2?!)
move 21 (...f4?!) or move 22 (what else apart
from ...Qxa4 or ...Qxb2 is there)... I would
recommend 19...Be5 as it seems to be quite
sound, based on a similar analysis involving
six other computers with the same setup.

This is my analyse of the Nd4 line suggested by Florin and Elisabeth


19.Bg5 Nd4 20.Qf7 Ne2+ 21.Kh1 Bxb2 22.f3 [22.Rab1 Bd4 23.Rb4 Qe6 
24.Qxe7+ Qxe7 25.Bxe7 Kxe7 26.Re1 Bc5 27.Rxe2+ Kd7 28.Rh4 h5 and 
black is fine; 22.Rad1 Bc3 white can play Qxh7 but after Qe6 only 
escape rute is Qh3 and black can play Rxa4] 22...Qe5 23.Ra2 Bd4 white 
has run out of good moves: the h7 is poisened, Re1 cannot be played 
in the nearest future because the Knight can check on g3, the Ra2 is 
passive taking care of a4, f4 is the last pawn move worth care about 
24.f4 Qe4 the queen has the choise: Leave the camp or take the 
endgame with Bxe7 25.Qc4 Nc3 26.Raa1 Qd5 27.Qb4 black has quite a few 
options: Rc8, h6, e6 - the W rooks can't do much harm

Although there may be some flaws in my analyse I hope this will help 
the team...my conclusion so far is that the best move after 19.Nd4 is 
..Qd1...a retreat but takes some of the pleasure away from Nd4

Steni..

Finally our tax dollars are being put to good use!

On Tue Jul 27 17:31:01, richard bean wrote:
> I & the computer chess team recommends 19...Be5
> 
> I have analyzed the position after 19...Qb4
> on a celeron 450, crafty 16.14 for 15 hours.
> It recommends 20.Qf7.
> 
> I have analyzed the position after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7
> on a (different) celeron 450, crafty 16.14 for 15 hrs.
> It recommends 20...Be5
> 
> I have analyzed the position after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7
> Be5 on a (still another) celeron 450, crafty 16.14
> for 15 hrs.  It recommends 21.h3.
> 
> I have analyzed the position after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7
> Be5 21.h3 on a (yet another) celeron 450, crafty
> 16.14 for 15 hrs.  It recommends 21...f4?! (+0.54
> for white).
> 
> I have analyzed the position after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7
> Be5 21.h3 Rh8 on a (yes another) celeron 450,
> crafty 16.14 for 16 hrs.  It recommends 22.Rad1.
> 
> On another computer, same software, same time,
> after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7 Be5 21.h3 Rh8 22.Rad1,
> it recommends 22...Qxa4 (-1.01 for Black,
> we are starting to lose it).
> 
> On another c450 computer, same software, same time,
> after 19...Qb4 20.Qf7 Be5 21.h3 Rh8 22.Rad1 Qxb2
> 23.Rb1, it recommends 23...Qd4 and the situation
> is looking very bad for black (-1.22).
> 
> So unless you want to play 21...f4 or can
> recommend another alternative at move 20 (...Qxb2?!)
> move 21 (...f4?!) or move 22 (what else apart
> from ...Qxa4 or ...Qxb2 is there)... I would
> recommend 19...Be5 as it seems to be quite
> sound, based on a similar analysis involving
> six other computers with the same setup.

I went to your website and noted that no one analyzed the 
continuation 19. Bg5 e6 at all.

Would someone with your site please check out that possibility and 
post your findings here?

Please check my last posting for more info on the line:

http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/
du/24859.asp

On Tue Jul 27 17:55:13, Computer Chess Team wrote:
> This is a repost of an earlier messaage. Also see the thread below 
> initiated by richard bean titled "19...Qb4 Bad 19...Be5 Good".
> 
> Kasparov played 19.Bg5. The computer chess team recommends 19...Be5, 
> which appears to us to be a very strong move.
> 
> For those who prefer to vote with the panel of experts:
> We found serious difficulties in the Qd4 lines and have been unable 
> to confirm that Qb4 or Nd4 are sound. In general we would prefer Nd4 
> over Qb4.
> 
> vote here: http://www.zone.com/kasparov/TodaysMove.asp
> 
> -gts

This is the 2nd suggestion for this move I've seen.  How do you 
propose to meet White's response Q-B7ch?

On Tue Jul 27 18:01:50, Breeze1 wrote:
> Moving our queen off the e file I think would be a mistake. this 
> would allow GK to slide over a Rook and gain control of that file. I 
> say we keep our Queen where it is and move our pawn to E6.

Thanks for sharing!

Have you looked at the line

19...e6 20.Rac1

the idea being to keep the knight from d4 and then play 21. Rfe1.

Garri will probably finish the world off soon with a brilliant 
sacrificial attack.
Perhaps Garri had this whole game worked out beforehand, like 
Alekhin's 5 queens game and other famous hoaxes. It  wouldn't be 
difficult, just get together with Irina and get her to suggest the 
moves which will bring about this brilliant victory. She can offer a 
whole lot of analysis to enhance her credibility but omit the one 
line that leads to a brilliant forced win for white.
It's all a Soviet-Zionist conspiracy.

We discussed this move in the chat room with Danny King this 
afternoon.  At first it seemed an interesting move.  However, it 
appears to be tactically flawed:

20. Rae1 Nd4 21. Qh3 Qg4 22. Qxh7 Nf3+ 23. Kh1 Nxe1
24. Qxg7+ Kc6 25.Rxe1 Qxg5 26. b4!

Black is a pawn ahead, but his King is in big trouble.
When I showed this analysis to Danny King, he described it as 
"terrifying for Black".

Mark Courtney
President
Vassar-Chadwick Chess Club
Poughkeepsie, NY

I found some stupid typos in my last posting and allso made some new 
concrete analysis so I decided to send it third time, if you have no 
stamina to read it, just ignore it! Dont answer "why are you 
posting the same analysis again."

After posting my last message I later realised I had written Qd4 when 
I ment Qb4 and sometimes vice versa, and no Im not on drugs, just 
stupid or something. Anyway I hope I can make myself clearer now.

I think we're probably already in trouble. The question might be 
which is the least worse variation.

19...Nd4?! ( as Felecan and Pahzt did suggest ) 20.Qf7 Ne2+ 21.Kh1 
Bxb2 22.Rab1 Bd4 23.Rfe1 looks bad for black, and its very hard to 
find ways to improve blacks play in this line 23...Bc3 as Bacrot 
suggests is probably a mistake, but what else? White seems to stand 
better in general anyway


might be that 19...Qb4 20 Qf7 Be5 ( as McCarthy suggests )is not 
satisfactory for black either. To answer whether or not, we must 
analyse whites 21. move possibilities. Doing that I found interest in 
21.Rad1 and made it the main line of my analysis, what amazes me, its 
not mentioned in the FAQ. nickname Wolf has analysed it allso.

some lines:

21.Rad1!? the idea is to continue 22.Rfe1 and maybe even f2-f4 if 
possible, black must act to prevent white centralazing his pieces 
under favourable circumstances

A) 21...Qxb2 22.Rfe1 transposes to 19...Qd4 20.Rfe1 Be5 21.Rad1 Qxb2 
22.Qf7, this might be blacks best choice

B) 21...Rxa4 and now theres no Rh8 and white can grab the h7-pawn 
22.Qxh7

C) 21...f4 22 Qxh7 Qe4 ( 22...Rh8 23 Qxg6 and I see no attack for 
black ) 23.Qh3+ Kc7 ( 23...Qf5!? ) 24.Rfe1 and white stands better

D) 21...Qg4? now this does not work like it did after the inferior 
21.Rfd1 for 22.f4! and white wins!

E) 21...Qxa4 and now I think 22.h3 with the simple idea 23.Qxh7 leads 
to advantage for white, though black has HER chances allso. But even 
more troublesome might be 22.Rfe1!? with the idea 23.f4, e.g. 
22...Qg4 is not playable cause of 23.f4 Bxf4 24. Qe6+ Kc7 25.Bxe7

F) and finally 21...h6 22.Bd2 threatening the queen and allso 
threatening to take on g6 next move, so 22...Qh4 23.h3!? ( or 23.g3 ) 
23...Qf6 24.Qb3 ( threatening Qxb6 ) 24...Bd4, in some Smartchess 
message here it said this is what Krush had intended but after 25.Bc3 
white is clearly better Im quite convinced. The alternative 24...Bxb2 
25.Qxb6 Rb8 does not look too good either for even 26.Bxh6!? is 
possible due to 26...Bd4 27.Qb5 g5?? 28.Bxg5 Qxg5 29.Rxd4

I dont see any other 21 move tries for black, now that I've been 
analysing these lines for quite many hours using crafty to check 
tactics, Im rather pessimistic about blacks position after the 
sequence 19...Qb4 20.Qf7 Be5 21.Rad1! if 21...Qxb2 22.Qf7 doesnt work

About 19...Qd4 I came to the following conclusion 

19...Qd4 20.Rfe1 Be5 21.Rad1

and now:

21...Qxa4 22.Qxb6 Ra7 and tho iKrush bunch says "unclear" I 
cant see black eventually standing the strong pressure white has in 
the centre. IMHO

or

21...Qxb2 22.Qf7, this position which may be arrived allso by the 
move order 19...Qb4 20.Qf7 Be5 21.Rad1 Qxb2 is very critical. Whether 
black can survive whites growing pressure in the centre or not?

22...Rxa4 23.Qxh7 and now we must find a good 23. move for black. 
Possible tries are 23...Ra2 and maybe 23...Re4!?, the position is 
VERY complicated, didnt get very far analysing it. Computers are not 
very much of help when some of the lines are over 20 moves deep, and 
even simple looking lines may hold hidded resources computers cant 
find.


So considering the current analysis people here at bulletin board 
have come up with and the FAQ; does these two queen moves 19...Qd4 
and 19...Qb4 make any difference? I think they make a small, but 
significant difference. While 19...Qd4 probably cant leave to 
anything but the critical line mentioned above, 19...Qb4 gives us the 
extra option to analyse 20...Qxb2 as an alternative to 20...Be5 after 
Garys forced reply 20.Qf7.



So my conclusion is that when 19...Qb4 20. Qf7 Be5 21.Rad1 Qxb2 
22.Rfe1 ( !! other move order being 19...Qd4 20.Rfe1 Be5 21.Rad1 Qxb2 
22.Qf7 ) and 19...Qb4 20.Qf7 Qxb2!? are probably the only playable 
lines when following "the expert suggestions", We should vote 
for Irinas 19...Qb4 leaving ourselves more options in the future!



I could add that in my current opinion the best move in the position 
is 19...Be5!?, but heck what that has to do with anything, youre 
anyway going to vote 19...Qb4 or 19...Qd4. The point Behind 
19...Be5!? is that black must play it later in the most lines anyway, 
and if white now plays his a1-rook, black may consider grabbing the 
pawn Qxa4. After 19...Be5!? 20.Rfe1 may look best, but then after 
20...Qb4 21.Qf7 the game transposes into the continuation 19...Qb4 
20.Qf7 Be5 21.Rfe1, which I think isnt very dangerous to us because 
of 21...h6!
Im still to find a way for white to gain advantage after 19...Be5!? 
and Ive been analysing it for some hours now.
If someone of you knows how to refute 19...Be5, please answer!

And I just have a feeling, intuition whatever its called in english, 
that black is in danger in the 19...Qb4 and 19...Qd4 lines

PS Anyway, I think that by playing 18...f5 we started dancing on a 
tight rope, and we may fall sooner than some could expect.

Im voting 19...Be5 and going to sleep. See ya here sometime.

You guys keep saying that Irina changes her moves because she keeps 
finding better ones.  So how can you then trust that Qb4 is the best 
move??  If she is missing these key moves each time then how do you 
know that any of her lines are even correct??  How can you say all 
her Nd4 lines are right??  Maybe there's a better reply??  Or maybe 
she finds a turn later that in her Qb4 analysis GK has a better 
reply??

Furthermore, when she makes a mistake and later admits it, IT DOES 
NOT MAKE HER A BETTER PLAYER.  Of course, we do in the end have a 
better move, but it doesn't mean that her ability to analyze 
positions is any better.  In other words, we still cannot trust that 
her best lines are correct.

The real surprise that even without showing the best line that she is 
able to convince the majority to choose her move.  (A knock on the 
voters?  Maybe.  Truly, however, it should be a knock on the other 
three analysts for not being able to convince the voters that Irina 
is incorrect.)

cynically yours,
dh

19 ...   f4
20 Qf7  (20 Rfe1  Qf5 or 20 Qxb6  Rb8)   
20 ...   Qe5
21 Bxf4  rf8
22 BxQ   RxQ
23 BxB   RxB

.

On Tue Jul 27 18:05:15, Glenn Ray wrote:
> I went to your website and noted that no one analyzed the 
> continuation 19. Bg5 e6 at all.
> 
> Would someone with your site please check out that possibility and 
> post your findings here?

why not join us?  (link off www.gmchess.spb.ru or barnet
chess club site)
crafty shows 20.Rfe1 Nd4 21.Qh3 Ne2+ 22.Kf1 Nf4
23.Bxf4 Qxf4 24. Qb3 Be5 25. Qxb6

with +0.79 for white.  I don't think you can
combine the ...f5 and ...e6 plans.

But 19...Be5, which seems like the best move
after extensive analysis, blocks White's rooks,
seems ok.

If you were the one who pointed out that two rooks for a queen is a 
good deal, I agree.  What exactly is dangerous about 20. ...Qxb2 
anyway?

Young and Naive

You can follow the FAQ: at


 http://watch.at/chesstree

Comments and suggestions are appriciated.
[Note: I didn't have time to put the analysis for Qd4]

On Wed Jul 28 03:57:51, Jon Eva wrote:
> 19...Be5 20.Qf7 f4 looks like a try.

yes, that line is winning for Black.
the critical line is
20.Qxb6 Nd4 21.Rfe1 Qc6 22.Qxc6+ Nxc6 23.Ra3 Nd4
24.Rd3 Rxa4 25.f4 h6! 26.Bh4! g5 27.fxg5 Nc6!
28.Bg3 Bd4+! at least drawing (unconsidered in FAQ)

even 26...Nc6 is probably OK here.

The whole line is quite sound but the smartchess
people didn't have enough time to look at it, I guess.
(this is the result of a 21-computer distributed
analysis using crafty 16.15)

So here are they! My variations to You.

On Wed Jul 28 02:39:31, Spiriev - to team and to Irina wrote:
 After 18...f5?
 19.Bg5! Qb4 20.Qf7 Qxb2(too risky) 21.Rab1 Qd4
 22.Rfd1! Rf8 23.Qb3 Qg4 24.Qxb6!! Rb8 25.f4!! white is better 
because 
 
 25...h6 then 26.Bxe7!! wins in every line for White
 analisis by Spiriev 
Main Key Variation is : after 26...Kxe7 27.Qc7+ Kf8
28.Rxd6 Re8 29.Rd7! Bd4+ (weaker is 29...Re7 because 30.Rxe7 Nxe7 
31.Qd8+ Kf7 32.Rxb7 Qe2 33.Qd5+ Qe6 34.Qxe6+ Kxe6 35.a5 Bd4+ 36.Kf1 
Nc6 37.a6 wins for White) 
After 29...Bd4+ Now White has two wins:
  30.Kh1 (I think this is the best because the also very dangerous 
variation a.  30.Rxd4 is also looking better for White thought here I 
still did not find a clear win after 30...Nxd4 31.Qd6 Kg8 32.Qxd4 Qe2 
33.a5 Re7 34.Rc1 Kh7 35.h3 Qe4! - this I did not wrote previusly as 
this is only a sideline probably) So now 

Back to After 30.Kh1! 30... Kg8
31.Rh7! Nd8 32.Re7! Rxe7 33.Qd8 Kf7 34.Qd5+ Kg7
35.Qd4+ Kh7 36.Qf2!! and Black has no defence 
For example : 36...Rd7 (after 36...g5 White wins even more easily! - 
I wrote previously.  You gave me that You dont agree with this but I 
hold that Black not only can not survive this but will lose it 
easily. I am curious Do You really think that Black can survive here 
with 36...g5? Because I doubt it. I can not give every variation 
until death here because I do not have program althoug 5 days ago I 
bought a Fritz 5 for my 100 pentium computer but it plays bad moves 
only probably because my computer motor is too slow.
I know - I feel - this program is quite good but my compter is too 
slow for it.
But I think that after 36...g5 White wins -true after 20 moves more 
but wins very surely- with 37.fxg5 
Please give me Your answer for this and I will show the winning for 
White in those lines too.)
After 36...Rd7 White wins   
37.h3! Qh5 38.Kh2!! and Black can not escape from Whites pressure.
Black is simply lost. White wins.
Original analyses by Peter Spiriev 

Best to You all.   
And thanks for the contribution.
 
 P.S. That move 22.Rfe1  is not dangerous at all - You gave me 
previously  because it leads to a 
 draw  but after
 22.Rfd1! -I think the best - White's position is clearly better.   
 
Peter Spiriev 
Sorry for other questions - not enough adeqat - I don not have the 
time for answer now.

I'm sure every conceivable move has been analyzed to death by now. If 
GK responds to suggested move of our Queen to d4..then what?  It 
seems to me our Queen from now on is going to be more concerned with 
just trying to save itself rather than to develop any good strategy. 
The Black Queen from now on is going to be hunted and chased by GK's 
Rooks...but then what do I know?  Help me out here.

Hello chessfriends,

Russian version will be available in 30 min - 1 hr,
English translation asap after that.
In the meanwhile please check out some our new sections at
http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/

On Thu Jul 29 16:37:49, DK wrote:
> With respect in your analysis you seem to have overlooked 22. Rad1 in 
> this losing line for black 
> 
> h3 Rh8 22. Rad1 Qxb2 23. Rb1 Qe2 24.
> Rfe1 Qa6 25. Bxe7 Nxe7 26. Rxe5 dxe5 27. Rd1+ Kc8 28. Qe6+ Kb8 29. 
> Qxe5+ Ka7
> 30. Qxh8 Nc6

Thx DK - line posted to our GMs

I noticed in an earlier post that not only are the Irina Krush's camp 
satisfied with taking complete control over this "world game" 
(what a joke "world game") but now they also want to 
"dictate" to us what we are allowed to "post" or not 
"post" here...

WELL... HAVE I GOT A "NEWS FLASH" FOR ALL OF YOU SO-CALLED 
"SMART" ONES: THIS IS STILL A FREE COUNTRY (THANK GOD 
ALMIGHTY) AND YOU AND YOUR "BUNCH" CANNOT CONTROL 
"FREEDOM OF SPEECH!"

All of this ludicrous analysis and "speculation" on what Mr. 
Kasparov is "going" to play after 20...Be5? Just simply look 
at the position... White is in control of this position with the 
initiative and the positional and material advantage... Therefore, it 
really does not matter what Mr. Kasparov decides to play, because he 
has several good moves to choose from. Now is the perfect time for 
Mr. Kasparov to "spring his unexpected" plan that none of us 
have foreseen.

Black's position eventually becomes untenable in ALL variations after 
20...Be5? While 20...Qxb2?! offers Black some hope of survival, it is 
also very bleak.

I do not care who likes this or not, WHATSOEVER. No one can 
"run" or "hide" from the TRUTH!

God bless everyone!
David

GOOD EVENING!
IWOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU THE
BEST DEFENCE(AS I SEE IT)
FOR BLACK, AND HOW CAN BLACK GET SURVIVEBLE POSITION.
AFTER 20...BE5
21F4!BB2
22RAE1!?RE8(ONLY)
23QH7QA4
24QG6QD4+
25KH1QD5
IN THIS POSITION BLACKS PLANE IS TO ADVANCE HIS B POWN AS HIS 
CONTRPLAY.
OFCOURSE YOU WILL ASK WHAT HAPPENS IF WHITE PLAY 22RAD1?
I HAVE SHOWN IT BEFOR AND WILL SHOWN IT AGAIN:
22RAD1 H6!
23BH6 BF6!
24QG6 QC5+
25 KH1 RA5
AND HERE BLACK HAS EVEN BETTER POSITION THEN IN FIRST VARIANT!!
SO WE HAVE TO PLAY BE5 ,DONT YOU THINK SO?

Subject:


Yes defending b2 would be weak, instead white should not all of a 
sudden worry about b2, but engage to break our f4 hold:

so from your line,
21. h3 f4
22. Rfe1 Ra8xa4
23. Ra1b1 Qb4c4!
24. Qf7xh7 Qc4e6!
25. Rb1d1 Qf5        
26. Qh4 Rab4 and now simply 
27. f3! fixing our weakness" 

27...Rxb2 and 
28 Rfe1 with Re4 and xf4 seems hard to stop, Zarkov likes white the 
whole way,even when we have 3 pawns for the exchange,and so far they 
all drop!!

We can keep f4 and probably still draw, 
with Rb4, but Rb4 Nb4 allows Be7, 
then we keep our 2 pawns for exch, but white is more mobile.






From:
Host:
Date:  The winning line with 23.h3 for Blacks!!!!!!!
Michel Gagne C.M. 
edmnts12c59.nbnet.nb.ca
Fri Jul 30 19:06:18 

Hi!

This line is like solid against white, wacth the Black Queen. Very 
interesting!

1. h3 f4
2. Rfe1 Ra8xa4
3. Ra1b1 Qb4c4!
4. Qf7xh7 Qc4e6!
5. Rb1d1 Qf5        Or, 5. ...Ra8 via Rh8
                        5. ...Rb4
6. Qh4 Rab4
7. Rd2 f3           If, QxR QxB Whites lost
8. g4

Blacks have a great position.

Comments

Thanks

Michel Gagne C.M.
www.michelgagne.com

Oohh is she, well1 That isa good to know.


On Sat Jul 31 01:03:29, Brian McCarthy wrote:
> On Sat Jul 31 00:32:20, kh wrote:
> I couldn't get the latest FAQ. but the computer chess team reports 
> Irina has joined GM Chess in choosing h3 Rxa4. 
> 
> In the rxa4 line thru 24...Qe4 or 24...Qc2 and the 2 pawn races
> 21.h3 Rxa4 22.Rxa4 Qxa4 23.Qxh7 Bxb2 24.Qxg6 Qe4
> 
> and now the computer team try: 25.Qf7 Nd4 26.h4 Bc3 27.Rd1 b5 28.h5 
> Qe2 29.Rc1 Qe5 30.Bf6 Qxf6 31.Qxf6 Nf3 32.gxf3 Bxf6  This is on a 
> crafty, but it is quicker to walk a computer thru pawn races,
> 
> 
> > I've got a 300 Knode/s computer -- albeit a Mac, so it "thinks 
> > different" -- just waiting for something to occupy its time. 
> > Would that help, or will the attacks be more subtle and easily 
> > missed? (I figure the more stuff we can get out before the Smart-FAQ 
> > deadline, the better off we'll all be.)
> > 
> > --Keith, your humble lackey :^)
> > 
> > On Sat Jul 31 00:14:50, Brian McCarthy wrote:
> > > Just got done comparing the board Rh8 to GM Chess and Irina: 
> > > 
> > > I have found the same thing in h3, f4 that GM chess found in Rh8, a 
> > > line where black gets 3 pawns for the exchange, in order to keep a 
> > > vague bind on the position. The kind of thing it is right to fear, 
> > > but can Kaspy risk no improvements down that much material??
> > > 
> > > The lines at GM Chess are not refuting Rh8 at all!
> > > 
> > > That said, I am not convinced we have got every line.
> > > Many lines of Rh8 do become critical, I understand what they are 
> > > trying to say about plunging into a pawn race as the best way to 
> > > continue. 
> > > 
> > > We still have a full day, if he plays h3 we will have a day to look 
> > > at 3 candidates, Rh8, Rxa4 or f4, keep an open mind, if he moves a 
> > > rook, we will have a more technical chore, but less disagreement , 
> > > probably.

You are 100% correct. My latest posting looks at Rad1 briefly. 
But other R moves may be important too. Given what we know about the 
pawn races, I expect GK to avoid Rxa4 in this line.

These other lines need work desparately since it appears Rxa4 will be 
our response to 21.h3 - so we could need a response to 21.h3 Rxa4 
22.Rac1 or Rad1 or Rae1 Monday afternoon.


On Sat Jul 31 05:35:12, DK wrote:
> On Sat Jul 31 04:05:45, Ross Amann wrote:
> > See my h3 Rxa4 posting below for advance peek at what (I hope) will 
> > be in next FAQ. 
> > 
> > How about some credit, Brian?
> > 
> > I've been working this line for days and started advertising it 20 
> > hours ago. I credit you in my latest summary, and analyze your 
> > suggested improvements to the line.
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat Jul 31 01:26:55, Brian McCarthy wrote:
> > >  One crafty 2 hour line in the pawn race is :
> > > 21.h3 Rxa4 22.Rxa4 Qxa4 23.Qxh7 Bxb2 24.Qxg6 Qe4 25.Qf7 Nd4 26. Kh1 
> > > b5 27. Qa2 Bc3 28. Rc1 b4 29. Qf7 Ne2 30. f3
> > > 
> > > Here Crafty says +16, but Zarkov likes black much more and so do I!
> > > 
> > > Be5!! 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7 
> > > Nd4 26. Kh1 b5 27. Qa2 Bc3 28. Rc1 b4 29. Qf7 Ne2 30. f3 
> > > 
> > > And now not +16 like crafty says, pv Qe5 f4 Qe4 Rd1 Nxf4 Bxf4 Qxf4 
> > > Qd5 Qe4 Qb5+ Kc8 -87 
> > > 
> > > A great example of why we need many kinds of programs on this task!! 
> > > a 100 point difference of opinion!I will leave it running a bit.
> > > 
> > > (posted earlier on the h4 attempt to race pawns: 
> > > Two Lines. Chessmantis 7/30 
> > > 21.h3..Rxa4! 22.Rxa4..Qxa4 23.Qxh7..Bxb2 24.Qxg6..Qe4 25.h4..Nd4! 
> > > 26.Qf7..Bc3 27.h5..Ne2+ 28.Kh1..Bd2!(Not  29.Bxd2??..Qh4++) 
> > > 29.Qg7..Bc3!=   21.h3..Rxa4! 22.Rae1..Qc4! 23.Qh7..Qe6! 
> > > 24.f4!?..Bd4+25.Kh2..Be3 26.Qh8..Re4!=/+ ) 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> 
> I hear that Ross - though I think Brian has also been discussing this 
> line - at least the first three lines at any rate for a good while 
> too. After I squashed his Rh8 continuation for Be5 - and incidentally 
> Qa4 might still prove prematurely dismissed if it turns out to have 
> improving lines - I only "refuted" that in a fairly cursory 
> way.  
> 
> Have you fully studied 22 and concluded 22.RxR is forced? I simply 
> don't see that. What is my problem?
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>

Have found a new variation on the above line wich leads to a strong 
position for black.
Will post it here after GK commits himself to h3.

Dear David

Does one continue to play, knowing that the deck is stacked? Or does 
one
forfeit the game, knowing that (in the longer term) a cunning trick 
will
prove no worthwhile victory?

I was happy to stay with the game (despite whatever) while I still 
felt
faith in Black's position. Just as the poll was closing on 16. 
...Ne4, I
was with two GMs -- both telling me that it 'didn't work' (because of 
18.
Qb3, of course). Naturally, I couldn't make this public! And, fool as 
I am,
I was once again prepared to disbelieve them, while I thought that
(perhaps) a draw might still be achieved. But the whole dubious way in
which the move 18. ...f5 was presented (and on 'subsequent analysis', 
the
move itself proving dubious), I can see no further continuation for 
Black,
who has now (as I understand it) allowed White to make several of his
moves.

One thing I pray -- that the truth of this great betrayal (for so it 
is)
will reverberate throughout the world, wherever such vibrations may be
felt.

My admiration for your persistence (despite obviously orchestrated
hostility) in seeking to warn and enlighten. I presume the sudden
disappearance of adopted leaders is already cause for some
'head-scratching'?

My best to you

Francis

On Sat Jul 31 06:10:08, Just a Chess Player wrote:
> On Sat Jul 31 06:06:07, Ruy Lopez wrote:
> > Have found a new variation on the above line wich leads to a strong 
> > position for black.
> > Will post it here after GK commits himself to h3.
> 
> Irina has said that she has about 9 hours to submit her analysis to 
> MSN after she knows his move.  That means that she must find out at 
> or before 3 A.M. PDT since his move and her analysis are posted at 
> noon.
> 
> Just a Chess Player
> 
Well... There it is everyone! "Irina has said" WHAT A BIG 
JOKE THIS GAME HAS TURNED OUT TO BE!

On Sat Jul 31 06:43:58, David GM2505 wrote:
> On Sat Jul 31 06:10:08, Just a Chess Player wrote:
> > On Sat Jul 31 06:06:07, Ruy Lopez wrote:
> > > Have found a new variation on the above line wich leads to a strong 
> > > position for black.
> > > Will post it here after GK commits himself to h3.
> > 
> > Irina has said that she has about 9 hours to submit her analysis to 
> > MSN after she knows his move.  That means that she must find out at 
> > or before 3 A.M. PDT since his move and her analysis are posted at 
> > noon.
> > 
> > Just a Chess Player
> > 
> Well... There it is everyone! "Irina has said" WHAT A BIG 
> JOKE THIS GAME HAS TURNED OUT TO BE!


How about I just blow a fart in your face and maybe you will go away??

This guy David GM2505, who Im now sure, isnt GM, is ruining the 
atmosphere, and flooding this BBS with insane babbling. 
"David" go see a shrink and hurry, seems like you dont have 
anything better to do with your life than irritate people at chess 
BBS. You probably are below average level player, and sounds like 
religious freak putting God to every sentence. O-B-S-E-S-S-I-O-N. 
Ever heard? Youre obsessed, posting same mails again and again and 
again. And who you think youre fooling? Those "mails" 
supporting your views, you have written yourself. Im no computer 
expert, but cant MS stop him posting bullshit here?
Ah it would be wonderful it they could.


The following I posted here before as an answer to "Davids" 
views: 




I agree with some of your points. In my opinion allso this game would 
have been more enjoyable if this BBS would have been the centre of 
analysis with analysis trees and stuff, and there would have been no 
sheppards saying the sheeps what to vote. BUT. You cant change it, 
can you? Maybe different formula next time. ( hopefully )

What comes to your claim we are lost, I very much doubt youre a GM. I 
think Gary has many promising lines, but we are NO way lost yet. And 
saying 10...Qe6?! is just rubbish, more like 10...Qe6!. A very 
important theoretical novelty, a profound and good move. You for one, 
if you really are a GM should know that CHESS IS VERY DIFFICULT GAME. 
I dunno if black has gone wrong somewhere already or not. I myself 
think 19...Qb4 was a little mistake ( I did prefer 19...Be5!? ), but 
heck thats just my opinion. GM Alexander Khalifman superbly talented 
player worked on 18...f5 for hours and hours and said world to vote 
it, dont blame iKrush for 18...f5 but the GMs! What productive 
analysis have you ever posted here anyway since world didnt go for 
your "brilliant" king move?? I think your king move did suck, 
how can you say as a "truth" there was something wrong with 
16...Ne4?? Bunch of 2600 rated GMs cant. So shut up and next time 
post some productive analysis. Copying and pasting, 
copying and pasting the same BS just floods this BBS and irritates 
people. I very much doubt you being a chess enthusiast, or GM for 
that matter. Sounds like a little crybaby that starts whining when 
everything isnt going his way. Grow up, ever heard of maturity??

Antti Pihlajasalo, IM Finland, elo fide 2429

PS. youre a coward to attack people like iKrush as an anonymous JERK. 
Leave if you cant say anything productive, please.

Can't reach Smartchess Online. Is this a local or world problem?

At first glance, seems to me that Black can just go (advantageously) 
into lines similar to the pawn race endgame:

21. Rfc1 Rxa4
22. Rxa4 Qxa4
23. Qxh7 Qg4

Also notice the rook sac on c6 is not on yet because of bank rank 
mate threats.

Mark


On Sat Jul 31 10:07:42, John Chernoff wrote:
> Sorry, I've a few times, since returning to the fracas after Qf7, 
> been buggering about with 21. h3 Rh8 22. Rfc1, but since 22. ...Rh8 
> has seemingly been losing favour, I just wondered about the 
> possibility of White playing Rfc1 immediately.
> 
> Seems to have a similar effect, though the R on a8 (no h6) and the 
> pawn on h2 (g3 for luft) changes things subtly, though possibly in 
> Kasparov's favour.
> 
> I've not really looked much at it yet.   Has anyone else?
> 
>    - John 
> 
> 
>

I've taken the liberty of reposting this message of eight hours ago.  
It was about 7:30 am EDT and my American teammates were probably not 
up yet.

I've worked through the following lines on Fritz, with occasional 
tweaking by me, for
21.   h3   Rxa4
22. Rxa4   Qxa4
23. Qxh7   Bxb2
24. Qxg6   Qe4

I apologize for the length of some of the lines, I wanted to make 
sure what I had was worth looking at--
25.  Bd2 (threatening Re1, with the threat to drive the Queen from 
the defense of the f5 pawn

a)
25.  Bd2    b5
26.   h4   Ne5 (see var. a1 for Qxh4?!)   
27.  Qg8   Bd4   
28.  Qb3   Qe2
29.  Be3   Nc6 
(29...Bxe3; 30. Qxe3 Qxe3; 31. fe h5  and the knight is forced to 
block the h-pawn.  The Black king must either defend the b-pawns 
allowing the White king to chase off the knight and gobble up Black's 
kingside pawns or defend those pawns and lose the b-pawns.)
30.  Bxd4  Nxd4
31.  Qd5   Qg4 
(31.   Qe4; 32. Qxe4 fe; 33.h5 Ke8; 34.Re1 d5; 35. fe ef; 36. h6 Kf8; 
37.h7 Kg7; 38. Rxe7+ Kh8; 39. g4  The b-pawn has to march 4 squares, 
the g-pawn only two more, then Rd8+/h8+Q)
32.  Qxb7+ Ke8
33.  Ra1   Kf7
34.  Qd5+  Kf6
35.   g3   Nf3+
36.  Kf1   Qc4+
37.  Qxc4   bc
38.  Ke2  
The material imbalance is now R vs. N with the N side now having one 
pawn for the exchange.  According to Fine's Basic Chess Endings, p. 
503 (ROOK AND PAWNS VS.KNIGHT AND PAWNS/ONE PAWN FOR THE EXCHANGE)
"First of all we must note that in unbalanced Pawn positions the 
Rook will usually win.  A passed pawn is set up and normally cramps 
the opponents game so badly that either the Kt or K becomes 
worthless."
Please note that a regular motif of these lines is the threat of 
queens and bishops being traded off.  This is going to be to White's 
advantage in most 
cases, I think.

(var. a1)
26.            Qxh4?!
27. Qxf5+ -->   Kc7
28.  Rb1        Be5
29.   g3        Qc4
30.  Rc1        Qe2
31.  Rc2        Qd1+
32.  Kg2        Bd4
33.  Qd3        Bb6
34.  Rc5         b4
35.  Rc1        Qa4
36.  Qe4        Kb8
37.  Qe6         b3
38.  Rb1        Nd4
39.  Qxe7

(b)
25.  Bd2  Bf6
26.  Re1  Qc2 (Black's best shot in many of these lines is to harry 
the rook and bishop)
27.  Bg5  Bxg5
(avoiding the trade with 27...Ne5 doesn't seem to help.  28. Qh5 Nd3; 
29. Rf1 Bxg5 (29...Bd4; 30. Be3 Bxe3; 31. Qxf5+ Kc7; 32. fe)
28. Qxg5   Qc5
29.   h4   Qa5
30.  Rb1   Nd4
31.   h5   Ne2+
32.  Kh2   Qe5+
33.  Kh1    b5
34.   h6 and White is winning

(c)
25.  Bd2  Ne5
26.  Qh7  Nd3 
27.  Be3  Nf4

(27...Nc4; 28. g4 fg; 29. Qxe4 Nxe4; 30. hg Nc3; 31. Bxb6 d5; f4 and 
White will lead (contra Capablanca's Rule) with the unpassed pawn, 
plotting pawns on g5 and f6, an exchange on f6 where the bishop can't 
take because of the rook.  Unless he's able to trade bishop's, in 
which case he'll push the passer)
(27...Be5; 28. g4 b5; 29. Qxf5+ Qxf5; 30. gf b4; 31. Rb1 e6; 32. fe 
Kxe6 33. Kf1 Bc3; 34. Ke2 Ne5; 35. h4 d5; 36. h5 d4; 37. Bf4 Nf7; 38. 
h6 Kf5; 39. Kfe d3; 40. Rd1 d5; 41. Bxd2 Bxd2; 42. Rxd2  The b-pawns 
look like goners, making it R+P vs. N.  Fine gives that as winning 
for White p. 495)

28. Bxf4 (giving up the opportunity to trade bishops, but it seems to 
work here)
          Qxf4
29. Re1   Be5
30. Qg6   Qh2+
(30...b5; 31. g3 Qf3; 32. Re3 Qd1+; 33. Kh2 f4; 34. Qf5+ e6; 35. Qf7+ 
Kc6; 36. gf Bd4; 37. Rxe6 Qf3; 38. Rg6 Qxf2+; 39. Rg2 Qe3; 40. Qf5  
White will try to harry the Black king away from any isolated pawn 
and pick it up.  He will also try to exchange queens.  R+Pawns vs. 
B+Pawns where the side with the bishop only has one pawn for the 
exchange should win for White according to Fine (p.483).
31. Kf1  Qf4
32.  g3  Qc4+
33. Kg1   e6
(33...f4; 34. Qf5+ Kd8; 35. Rd1 Kc7; 36. g4 good for White)
34. Qf7+ Kc8
35. Qe8+ Kc7
36.  h4   b5
37.  h5  Qc3
38. Qe7+ Kb6
39. Qd8+ Ka7
40. Re2

(White only has a slight edge here because the h-pawn is further 
advanced.  Unlike the other lines, Black still has both pawns for the 
exchange and the bishop instead of the knight.  25...Ne5 may be 
Black's strongest response to 25. Bd2.

Fortifying the King against the oncoming rook doesn't seem to help.  
How about getting out of the way?

(d)
25. Bd2  Qd3
26. Be3  Bd4

(26.  b4; 27. g4 b4; 28. Qxf5+ Qxf5; 29. gf Bc3; 30. Rb1 d5; 31. h4 
Kd6; 32. Bf4+ Kc5; 33. h5 Kc4; 34. h6 Bh8; 35. Be3 b3; 36. Bc1 Kb4 
(Kc3; Bb2+); 37. Bb2 d4; 38. h7 Kc4; 39. Ra1 Kd3; 40. Ra8 Be5; 41. 
Rf8 Kc2; 42. f6 Kxb2; 43. h8Q)
27. Bxd4 Nxb4
28. Qf7  Ne2+
29. Kh2   b5
30. Re1  Qe4
(30...f4; 31. Qh5 f3; 32. Qxf3 Qxf3; 33. gf Nf4; 34. Kg3 e5; 35. h4 
and White queens first)
31. Qb3  Qf4+
32. Kh1  Nd4
33. Qd5   e5
34. Qxb7+ Ke6
35. Qc8+  Kd5
36. Rf1   Qd2
37.  f3   b4
38. Rc1   e4
39.  fe   f3
40. Qg8+ and White begins a strong attack against the Black king that 
looks like it offsets the b-pawn being further along.


These are long lines and, although I believe I got most of the 
significant alternatives, they would benefit from further analysis.  
I apologize again for the length, but I wanted to make sure of the 
types of endgames likely to result from them.  Also, prior analysis 
hasn't been done on 25. Bd2 to the best of my knowledge and if the 
lines are good for White, it should be.

CONCLUSIONS

25...b5 
R+Ps vs. N+Ps (Knight only having one pawn for the 
exchange)(Unbablanced pawn structure) 
Fine says winning for White

25...Bf6 
Q+R+Ps vs. Q+N+Ps (two pawns for the exchange)
But white has a pawn on h6, backed by the queen, black has nothing 
forward of b5, which is frozen by the rook.  

25...Ne5
Q+R+Ps vs. Q+B+Ps (two pawns for the exchange)
Possibly Black's best line here.  The bishop remains to cover h8.  
Although a bishop is stronger than knight in endgames with pawns on 
both sides of the board, it should be noted that queens also 
coordinate better with knights than with bishops.  Further, Black's 
king is potentially vulnerable here to White's heavy pieces.

I did one line, not posted here because it goes to move 53 and this 
post is long enough as it is, that after a queen trade and Black 
having to concede his bishop for the new h8 queen (BxQ, RxB) resulted 
in an endgame R+P vs. 4 Ps.  White's pawn is it's passed g-pawn so I 
think a clear win for White.

25...Qd3
Similar to the above.  Although on endgame principles along, a 
not-bad line for Black because the b-pawn if further advanced, the 
vulnerability of Black's king to White's queen-rook tandem offsets 
this.

Thanks.

It's h3  - with Krush recommending Ra4

The alternative for the passive move 21... Ra8 against 21.h3 is the 
"Pawn Race" variation, which is a good line for Black. As per 
Russian GM School: 

21 h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 

Here, White has several options: a) Qf7; b) Qg8; c)f3 d)Bd2 e)Kh1 and 
f)h4. In all cases we should follow the "Pawn Race" strategy 
to win ! For example, after 25.h4 we have the variation below: 

25. h4 b5 26. h5 b4 27. h6 b3 28. h7 

Now we have the improvement ....28 Be5, which I think is better than 
Russian GM School's ...28. Nd4. Why this is a winning line ? The 
answer: Our bishop controls the diagonal h8-a1; the black b-pawn 
coronation square is white and providing that we avoid the queen 
exchange the white king will be locked on his corner. So, using Fritz 
5.0 we have:

28...Be5 29. Qg8 b2 30. Qb3 Nd4 31. Qa4+ Qc6 32. Qb4 Ne2+ 33. Kh1 Bc3 
34. Qb3 f4 35. Bh4 Qe4 36. Kh2 f3 37. g3 Be5 38. Kh3 Nc1 39. Qb5+ Kc7 
40. Qa5+ Kc6 41. Re1 b1=Q 42. Rxe4 Qxe4 

Of course, we can have hundreds of variations starting on move 29, 
but the Black position is better enough to win !

Kasparov will not be satisfied with leaving the game up to chance 
(i.e. a pawn race). He will delay any pawn snatches until all attacks 
against the black king are exhausted. 21...a8a4 leads to a plus for 
white and here is why

21. ..., a8a4
22. a1a4, b4a4
23. f4, and now
    a) 23....,e5d4ch 24. g1h1, a4c2 25. f1e1 +=
    b) 23....,e5b2 24. f1e1, a4d4ch 25. g1h1, d4g7 26.        f7e6ch 
+=
    c) 23....,a4d4ch 24. g1h1, e5f6 25. f7h7 +=
    d) 23....,e5d4ch 24. g1h1, a4b4 25. f7h7 +=

The move 21...., e5f4 could be played, i.e. 22. g5f4, b4f4 23. f7h7, 
f4g5 with the idea of 24...,g5f6.

I was looking for this line back in the index pages and it seems to 
have mysteriously vanished - anyone recall it?

On Sun Aug 1 04:05:04, Nathaniel wrote:
> On Sun Aug 1 03:50:44, Blusea wrote:
> > Kasparov will not be satisfied with leaving the game up to chance 
> > (i.e. a pawn race). He will delay any pawn snatches until all attacks 
> > against the black king are exhausted. 21...a8a4 leads to a plus for 
> > white and here is why
> > 
> > 21. ..., a8a4
> > 22. a1a4, b4a4
> > 23. f4, and now
> >     a) 23....,e5d4ch 24. g1h1, a4c2 25. f1e1 +=
> >     b) 23....,e5b2 24. f1e1, a4d4ch 25. g1h1, d4g7 26.        f7e6ch 
> > +=
> >     c) 23....,a4d4ch 24. g1h1, e5f6 25. f7h7 +=
> >     d) 23....,e5d4ch 24. g1h1, a4b4 25. f7h7 +=
> > 
> > The move 21...., e5f4 could be played, i.e. 22. g5f4, b4f4 23. f7h7, 
> > f4g5 with the idea of 24...,g5f6.
> 22."b4a4" is an impossible move because a4 is already 
> occupied by black's rook (probably just a typo:)

I noticed this a while ago, something "looked" odd.  But I 
thought it might have just been me.
Thanks.

On Sun Aug 1 09:16:49, Michel Gagne C.M. wrote:
> nt
> 
> On Sun Aug 1 09:09:25, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> > I am voting for 21 ..Rh8.
> > The published analysis of this move by Irina and
> > others is entirely unconvincing. 

Yes.

On Sun Aug 1 09:55:32, MRPhew wrote:
> Well am I the only one who cannot connect on their site on it's the 
> same problem to all???

Well, maybe they know already what World has voted and are 
actualizing the page and FAQ.

On Sun Aug 1 09:39:48, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> On Sun Aug 1 09:16:49, Michel Gagne C.M. wrote:
> > nt
> > 
> > On Sun Aug 1 09:09:25, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> > > I am voting for 21 ..Rh8.
> > > The published analysis of this move by Irina and
> > > others is entirely unconvincing. 
> 
> Yes.
.

I am working on it, but so far 24...Bc3 looks far better than 
24...Qg7. (after 22. Rac1 Bxb2 23. Rb1 Qd4 24. Rfe1)


JCM



On Sun Aug 1 10:05:16, Ross Amann wrote:
> -
> 
> On Sun Aug 1 09:31:36, D_Dude wrote:
> > On Sun Aug 1 08:49:14, Ross Amann wrote:
> > > based on the latest SCO FAQ, analysis goes
> > > 
> > > a1) Bxb2 23.Rb1 Qd4 24.Qxh7 Qg7 25.Qxg7 Bxg7 26.Rxb6
> > > Nd8 even.
> > 
> > Hope I do not annoy you people on the board with this
> > repetition, but as nobody corrected the line, I gave
> > before, I think it fits in here quite well :-)
> > 
> > a11) 
> > 24. Rfe1  Qg7   (He`s not greedy)
> > 25. Qb3   Rb4   (kindof pin against the rook?!)
> > 26. Qe6+  Kc7   (swapping down pieces in a line
> > 27. Bxe7  Nxe7   of forced moves)
> > 28. Qxe7+ Qxe7
> > 29. Rxe7  Kc6   
> > 30. Rxh7
> > I tried to push this line even further but did
> > only worse the position for black.
> > 
> > 30. ...   b5   
> > 31. Kf1   Bc3    
> > 32. Rxb4  Bxb4
> > 33. Rg7   Bc5
> > 34. Rxg6  +/-
> > 
> > Please point me on the flaws in the moves I made.
> > 
> > 
> > Cheers
> > D.

PS  I also think ...Rh8 was the best move -- it was consistent with 
the strategy started with ...Qb4 in that we keep the queen from 
getting exposed on open files.  However, I will live with it if the 
world picks ...Rxa4 as expected and will hope we find the best 
continuation

I'm enhancing my survey of Rac1 to include yours and others efforts - 
with attribution. Watch this space... 

On Sun Aug 1 11:10:03, pk wrote:
> Ummm, this has been mentioned earlier, check
> 
> http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/es/30892.asp and 
> http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/us/30908.asp
> 
> On Sun Aug 1 11:01:20, Ross Amann wrote:
> > Just as I was starting to despair, "red foster" to the 
> > rescue!! I thought these moves equivalent...
> > 
> > On Sun Aug 1 10:48:25, red foster wrote:
> > > I noticed someone say he could not find good moves for black after 
> > > this:
> > > 
> > > 21 Rxa4, 22 Rc1 Bxb2 23 Rb1 Qd4 24 Rfe1 Qf7 25 Qb3! in which white 
> > > declines Qxh7 in favor of Rfe1, then declines  QxQ in favor of Qb3 
> > > which if 25... Rb4, then 26 Qe6+ gets nasty. 
> > > 
> > > But 21 Rxa4, 22 Rc1 Bxb2 23 Rb1 Qc3 seems to allow this: 
> > > 
> > > 24 Rfe1 Re4 facing off the rooks.
> > > 
> > > I assume this has been analyzed but didn't see it in earlier FAQs.

On Sun Aug 1 11:06:55, D_Dude wrote:
> On Sun Aug 1 10:36:32, pk wrote:
> > That's probably the main reason why Crafty suggests
> > 23. ... Qc3 
> > instead of 23. ... Qd4. 24. Rfe1 can then be met with
> > 24. ... Re4. 
> 
> You made a very important point here!
> 
> I started the evaluation _after_ the 
> FAQ-move 23. ...Qd4 and found that Black
> get`s into trouble. Your move saves our
> position.
> 

> Now there`s one thing left to do :
> How do we get your move 23. ... Qc3 into the FAQ to replace the bad 
> one?
> 
> Thanks for your contribution.
> 
> Cheers
> D.
> 
Well one of my suggestion already made it into the FAQ without any 
additional effort on my side. I suppose the Smartchess people follow 
this BBS closely.

Hey.theres no text here!

Possible responses to 22.Rac1 (assuming 22. …Rxa4):

A1)	Bxb2 23.Rb1 Qc3! “pk”/”red foster” (Qd4? From FAQ 24.Rfe1!! 
“D_Dude” Qg7 [Bc3? “JCM” 25.Rxe7+ Nxe7 26.Qxe7+ Kc6 27.Qe8+  Kd5 
28.Qg8+ Kc6 {Ke4 29.Qe6+ Qe5 30.f3+ Kd3 31.Qb3} 29.Qc8+ Kd5 30.Rb5+ 
Ke4 31.Qe6+ Kd3 32.Rd5] 25.Qb3 Rb4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27.Bxe7 Nxe7 28.Qxe7+ 
Qxe7 29.Rxe7+ Kc6 30.Rxh7 with nice endgame edge) 24.Qxh7 (24.Rfe1?! 
Re4!) Qg7 25.Qxg7 Bxg7 26.Rxb8 Nd8 FAQ (Ra7; Kc7) seems fine but note 
error 23. ...Qd4 in FAQ.

A2) 	Bxb2 23.Rxc6? Kxc6 FAQ 24.Qe8+ Kc5 25.Be3+ Kc4 and black wins.

A3)	Bxb2 23.Rcd1?! Qc4 25.Qxh7 Qe6 – as in FAQ with extra tempo.

A4)	Bxb2 23.Rae1 Bc3 24.Rxe7+ Bxe7 25.Qxe7+ Kc8 == (perpetual check).

B) Qxb2?! 23.Qxh7 Ra2 24.Qxg6 Nd4 25.Kh1 and white is ahead.

C) Bf4?! 23.Bxf4 Qxf4 24.Qxh7 and white is ahead.

D) h6?! 23.Bxh6 Bxb2 24.Rb1 Ne5 (impossible with B on g5) 25.Qd5! Ra7 
26.Rfd1 Nc4 27.Bc1 winning.

E) F4 23.Qxh7 f3 (Qe4? 24.Rfe1 Qf5 25.Bxe7! Nxe7 26.Rc7+) unclear.

Thanks for the help, guys, keep it coming!!

again, my apologies if this has been analyzed completely someplace 
(please point me to the link in that case) but, are we assuming that 
white wants to somehow attack and mate black, instead of going for a 
better endgame? e.g.

21.h3  Rxa4
22. Rxa4     (has this been analyzed?)
22. ... Qxa4
23. Qxh7 ??
24. Qxg6 ??

Note: At this point there is no threat to white's King whatsoever, he 
doesn't mind losing his queen-side pawns in return for black's 
king-side pawns. And then go for the end-game.

In the above moves, black cannot avoid losing his king-side pawns, 
and neither can he cause much hassles to any white pieces. So why 
should white not go for it?

Just curious.

and even less about endgames. Are you sure Black is OK in the endgame 
after 22. Rac1 Bxb2 23. Rb1 Qc3 24. Rfe1 Re4 25. Rxe4 fxe4 26. Qxh7 
Qg7 27. Qxg7 Bxg7 28. Rxc6? It seems to me that our pieces are rather 
tied down defending all those scattered black pawns, not to mention 
trying to hold back White's scary h pawn; but I don't know much.

On Sun Aug 1 11:38:53, Ross Amann wrote:
> Possible responses to 22.Rac1 (assuming 22. Rxa4):
> 
> A1)	Bxb2 23.Rb1 Qc3! pk/red foster (Qd4? From FAQ 24.Rfe1!! 
> D_Dude Qg7 [Bc3? JCM 25.Rxe7+ Nxe7 26.Qxe7+ Kc6 27.Qe8+  Kd5 
> 28.Qg8+ Kc6 {Ke4 29.Qe6+ Qe5 30.f3+ Kd3 31.Qb3} 29.Qc8+ Kd5 30.Rb5+ 
> Ke4 31.Qe6+ Kd3 32.Rd5] 25.Qb3 Rb4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27.Bxe7 Nxe7 28.Qxe7+ 
> Qxe7 29.Rxe7+ Kc6 30.Rxh7 with nice endgame edge) 24.Qxh7 (24.Rfe1?! 
> Re4!) Qg7 25.Qxg7 Bxg7 26.Rxb8 Nd8 FAQ (Ra7; Kc7) seems fine but note 
> error 23. ...Qd4 in FAQ.
> 
> A2) 	Bxb2 23.Rxc6? Kxc6 FAQ 24.Qe8+ Kc5 25.Be3+ Kc4 and black wins.
> 
> A3)	Bxb2 23.Rcd1?! Qc4 25.Qxh7 Qe6  as in FAQ with extra tempo.
> 
> A4)	Bxb2 23.Rae1 Bc3 24.Rxe7+ Bxe7 25.Qxe7+ Kc8 == (perpetual check).
> 
> B) Qxb2?! 23.Qxh7 Ra2 24.Qxg6 Nd4 25.Kh1 and white is ahead.
> 
> C) Bf4?! 23.Bxf4 Qxf4 24.Qxh7 and white is ahead.
> 
> D) h6?! 23.Bxh6 Bxb2 24.Rb1 Ne5 (impossible with B on g5) 25.Qd5! Ra7 
> 26.Rfd1 Nc4 27.Bc1 winning.
> 
> E) F4 23.Qxh7 f3 (Qe4? 24.Rfe1 Qf5 25.Bxe7! Nxe7 26.Rc7+) unclear.
> 
> Thanks for the help, guys, keep it coming!!
> 
>

When will the move be posted

Good morning Ross,

On Sun Aug 1 11:38:53, Ross Amann wrote:
> Possible responses to 22.Rac1 (assuming 22. Rxa4):
> 
> A1)	Bxb2 23.Rb1 Qc3! pk/red foster (Qd4? From FAQ 24.Rfe1!! 
> D_Dude Qg7 [Bc3? JCM 25.Rxe7+ Nxe7 26.Qxe7+ Kc6 27.Qe8+  Kd5 
> 28.Qg8+ Kc6 {Ke4 29.Qe6+ Qe5 30.f3+ Kd3 31.Qb3} 29.Qc8+ Kd5 30.Rb5+ 
> Ke4 31.Qe6+ Kd3 32.Rd5] 25.Qb3 Rb4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27.Bxe7 Nxe7 28.Qxe7+ 
> Qxe7 29.Rxe7+ Kc6 30.Rxh7 with nice endgame edge) 24.Qxh7 (24.Rfe1?! 
> Re4!) Qg7 25.Qxg7 Bxg7 26.Rxb8 Nd8 FAQ (Ra7; Kc7) seems fine but note 
> error 23. ...Qd4 in FAQ.

I agree, 22. Rac1 Bxb2 23. Rb1 Qc3 24. Qxh7 Qg7 25. Qxg7 Bxg7 26. 
Rxb6 Nd8 27. Re1 Ra1! 28. Kf1 Rxe1+ 29. Kxe1 Bd4 etc looks absolutely 
fine for black, and Fritz seems to think black is slightly better.  
As with most of the relatively even-looking endgames it would take 
much more analysis to see who is winning. As such I really hope 
Kasparov doesn't disappoint us with one of the more unexciting 
continuations like this.  I think this game deserves the full pawn 
race psycho finale. :) Let's see him take us on and show us why he's 
the World Champ.  Otherwise I'll have to post a bunch of subject 
lines like BWOK! BWOK! BWOK!. ;)

Pete

On Sun Aug 1 11:56:39, don't know much about chess wrote:
> and even less about endgames. Are you sure Black is OK in the endgame 
> after 22. Rac1 Bxb2 23. Rb1 Qc3 24. Rfe1 Re4 25. Rxe4 fxe4 26. Qxh7 
> Qg7 27. Qxg7 Bxg7 28. Rxb6? It seems to me that our pieces are rather 
> tied down defending all those scattered black pawns, not to mention 
> trying to hold back White's scary h pawn; but I don't know much.
> 
> On Sun Aug 1 11:38:53, Ross Amann wrote:
> > Possible responses to 22.Rac1 (assuming 22. Rxa4):
> > 
> > A1)	Bxb2 23.Rb1 Qc3! pk/red foster (Qd4? From FAQ 24.Rfe1!! 
> > D_Dude Qg7 [Bc3? JCM 25.Rxe7+ Nxe7 26.Qxe7+ Kc6 27.Qe8+  Kd5 
> > 28.Qg8+ Kc6 {Ke4 29.Qe6+ Qe5 30.f3+ Kd3 31.Qb3} 29.Qc8+ Kd5 30.Rb5+ 
> > Ke4 31.Qe6+ Kd3 32.Rd5] 25.Qb3 Rb4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27.Bxe7 Nxe7 28.Qxe7+ 
> > Qxe7 29.Rxe7+ Kc6 30.Rxh7 with nice endgame edge) 24.Qxh7 (24.Rfe1?! 
> > Re4!) Qg7 25.Qxg7 Bxg7 26.Rxb8 Nd8 FAQ (Ra7; Kc7) seems fine but note 
> > error 23. ...Qd4 in FAQ.
> > 
> > A2) 	Bxb2 23.Rxc6? Kxc6 FAQ 24.Qe8+ Kc5 25.Be3+ Kc4 and black wins.
> > 
> > A3)	Bxb2 23.Rcd1?! Qc4 25.Qxh7 Qe6  as in FAQ with extra tempo.
> > 
> > A4)	Bxb2 23.Rae1 Bc3 24.Rxe7+ Bxe7 25.Qxe7+ Kc8 == (perpetual check).
> > 
> > B) Qxb2?! 23.Qxh7 Ra2 24.Qxg6 Nd4 25.Kh1 and white is ahead.
> > 
> > C) Bf4?! 23.Bxf4 Qxf4 24.Qxh7 and white is ahead.
> > 
> > D) h6?! 23.Bxh6 Bxb2 24.Rb1 Ne5 (impossible with B on g5) 25.Qd5! Ra7 
> > 26.Rfd1 Nc4 27.Bc1 winning.
> > 
> > E) F4 23.Qxh7 f3 (Qe4? 24.Rfe1 Qf5 25.Bxe7! Nxe7 26.Rc7+) unclear.
> > 
> > Thanks for the help, guys, keep it coming!!
.

and f4 got only 1.8% of the vote.  Did anyone prove a draw with 
this line (I went to bed at 1 a.m. EDT with no conclusion on that 
line).  

BobE

On Sun Aug 1 12:02:45, Sean wrote:
> On Sun Aug 1 11:38:53, Ross Amann wrote:
> > Possible responses to 22.Rac1 (assuming 22. Rxa4):
> > 
> > A1)	Bxb2 23.Rb1 Qc3! pk/red foster (Qd4? From FAQ 24.Rfe1!! 
> > D_Dude Qg7 [Bc3? JCM 25.Rxe7+ Nxe7 26.Qxe7+ Kc6 27.Qe8+  Kd5 
> > 28.Qg8+ Kc6 {Ke4 29.Qe6+ Qe5 30.f3+ Kd3 31.Qb3} 29.Qc8+ Kd5 30.Rb5+ 
> > Ke4 31.Qe6+ Kd3 32.Rd5] 25.Qb3 Rb4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27.Bxe7 Nxe7 28.Qxe7+ 
> > Qxe7 29.Rxe7+ Kc6 30.Rxh7 with nice endgame edge) 24.Qxh7 (24.Rfe1?! 
> > Re4!) Qg7 25.Qxg7 Bxg7 26.Rxb8 Nd8 FAQ (Ra7; Kc7) seems fine but note 
> > error 23. ...Qd4 in FAQ.
> 
> > Thanks for the help, guys, keep it coming!!
> 
> OK, I'm not so sure anymore that the line:
> 22...Bxb2 23.Rb1 Qd4 24.Rfe1 Qg7 25.Qb3 Rb4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27. Bxe7 
> Be5(!) is all that bad for black. If now 28.Rxb4 Nxb4 29.Rxe5 Qxe5 
> 30.Qxe5 dxe5 31.Bxb4, we have an endgame with blacks 6 pawns against 
> whites 3 pawns and a bishop. I've studied it a bit and I think black 
> has the best chances, and at should get at least a draw.

Fritz suggests white can improve 28. Rxb4 Nxb4 with 29.  Rd1! +-. 
There would follow 29...Nc6 30. Bxd6+ Bxd6 31.  Qxd6+ Kc8 32. Rb1 and 
white is winning.

These vote percentages are a travesty.  
f4 got less than 2% of the vote despite being recommended by GM 
Danny King.  And look how many votes Ra4 gets (despite King's opinion 
that in this line Kasporov has a better chance for win than the world 
for a draw).
It's just ridiculous.  My apologies go out to all the people working 
on f4 and Rh8.  Perhaps it's the means, not the end that matters so 
your work was not a complete waste.

Good Morning America, Good Evening Europe;


On Sun Aug 1 12:02:45, Sean wrote:
> OK, I'm not so sure anymore that the line:
> 22...Bxb2 23.Rb1 Qd4 24.Rfe1 Qg7 25.Qb3 Rb4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27. Bxe7 
> Be5(!) is all that bad for black. If now 28.Rxb4 Nxb4 29.Rxe5 Qxe5 
> 30.Qxe5 dxe5 31.Bxb4, we have an endgame with blacks 6 pawns against 
> whites 3 pawns and a bishop. I've studied it a bit and I think black 
> has the best chances, and at should get at least a draw.

What would you say to  the deviation from your line
29. Rd1 
Say with the continuation
29. ...   Nc6
30. Bxd6+ Bxd6
31. Qxd6+ Kc8

Doesn`t look too promising, I think..but please
check for yourself. 

Cheers
D.

On Sun Aug 1 12:02:45, Sean wrote:
> On Sun Aug 1 11:38:53, Ross Amann wrote:
> > Possible responses to 22.Rac1 (assuming 22. Rxa4):
> > 
> > A1)	Bxb2 23.Rb1 Qc3! pk/red foster (Qd4? From FAQ 24.Rfe1!! 
> > D_Dude Qg7 [Bc3? JCM 25.Rxe7+ Nxe7 26.Qxe7+ Kc6 27.Qe8+  Kd5 
> > 28.Qg8+ Kc6 {Ke4 29.Qe6+ Qe5 30.f3+ Kd3 31.Qb3} 29.Qc8+ Kd5 30.Rb5+ 
> > Ke4 31.Qe6+ Kd3 32.Rd5] 25.Qb3 Rb4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27.Bxe7 Nxe7 28.Qxe7+ 
> > Qxe7 29.Rxe7+ Kc6 30.Rxh7 with nice endgame edge) 24.Qxh7 (24.Rfe1?! 
> > Re4!) Qg7 25.Qxg7 Bxg7 26.Rxb8 Nd8 FAQ (Ra7; Kc7) seems fine but note 
> > error 23. ...Qd4 in FAQ.
> 
> > Thanks for the help, guys, keep it coming!!
> 
> OK, I'm not so sure anymore that the line:
> 22...Bxb2 23.Rb1 Qd4 24.Rfe1 Qg7 25.Qb3 Rb4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27. Bxe7 
> Be5(!) is all that bad for black. If now 28.Rxb4 Nxb4 29.Rxe5 Qxe5 
> 30.Qxe5 dxe5 31.Bxb4, we have an endgame with blacks 6 pawns against 
> whites 3 pawns and a bishop. I've studied it a bit and I think black 
> has the best chances, and at should get at least a draw.

How about 28. Rxb4 Nxb4 29. Rd1 Nc6 30. Bd6+?

On Sun Aug 1 12:10:59, F4=1.84-#37; of votes wrote:
> nt
nt

On Sun Aug 1 12:09:54, horndog187 wrote:
> we should know all the tricks in comparable endings

Let me ask a silly question...Anyone know of a site that has some 
endgame databases?  I have a few, but not many.

TIA
rockyfort
aka Bob James
jamesgang@interconnect.net

Why are so many willing to rely on one snippet of rumored 
conversation - unpublished, unchecked, did he really say it? - rather 
than the published lines of many GMs (not to mention your 
hard-working BBS contributors)?

Even stranger, why are they whining? Did they expect to win? Against 
all analysts and logic? Why don't they just leave us alone...

On Sun Aug 1 12:11:46, way to go smartchess wrote:
> These vote percentages are a travesty.  
> f4 got less than 2% of the vote despite being recommended by GM 
> Danny King.  And look how many votes Ra4 gets (despite King's opinion 
> that in this line Kasporov has a better chance for win than the world 
> for a draw).
> It's just ridiculous.  My apologies go out to all the people working 
> on f4 and Rh8.  Perhaps it's the means, not the end that matters so 
> your work was not a complete waste.

I think you have not got your fundamentals right here. In this kind 
of a game where each analyst has a day to think and lots of 
resources, it does not matter whether you follow an analyst with a 
higher rating or a lower rating, as long as they are good players. 
But hard work and lots of analysis do count, and this is where Irina 
comes into the picture. So the world voting pattern is perfectly 
logical...

On Sun Aug 1 12:11:46, way to go smartchess wrote:
> These vote percentages are a travesty.  
> f4 got less than 2% of the vote despite being recommended by GM 
> Danny King.  And look how many votes Ra4 gets (despite King's opinion 
> that in this line Kasporov has a better chance for win than the world 
> for a draw).
> It's just ridiculous.  My apologies go out to all the people working 
> on f4 and Rh8.  Perhaps it's the means, not the end that matters so 
> your work was not a complete waste.

On Sun Aug 1 12:19:05, Hodag McFarferferary wrote:
> On Sun Aug 1 12:11:46, way to go smartchess wrote:
> > These vote percentages are a travesty.  
> > f4 got less than 2% of the vote despite being recommended by GM 
> > Danny King.  And look how many votes Ra4 gets (despite King's opinion 
> > that in this line Kasporov has a better chance for win than the world 
> > for a draw).
> > It's just ridiculous.  My apologies go out to all the people working 
> > on f4 and Rh8.  Perhaps it's the means, not the end that matters so 
> > your work was not a complete waste.
> 
> This proves one thing.  The Grandmasters have already bailed out, 
> most of the Master are gone.  Many others are discusted and have 
> left.  Now we get to see our center distroyed, and our king will be 
> chased around like a little girly.

I think your comments are a complete waste of time, space, and 
energy, but I must admit that's the most interesting fake name I've 
seen in a long stretch. :)

On Sun Aug 1 12:19:46, Chessmasterone Analysts wrote:
> Recommended moves are unfortunately posted at the voting site 
> "Make Your Move" site itself.  Best if reference links be 
> posted here, insead of direct interface recommended moves.  
> 
> Best to you.


As an improvement for the system, there should be a time period, say 
from 6AM to 9AM(PST) where one is given a chance to change their vote.

Otherwise, (atleast in the US), lots of votes get cast by 10PM(PST), 
people then go off to sleep, get nightmares as towhat they have just 
voted, get up in the morning and repent!:-) But its too late :-)

Besides, I get my best moves in my sleep ;-)

It proves that people that votes, are not looking at this BBS at all. 
They look at analists advises, and that's it, that's all. I have 
voted for Rxa4, but F4 is a move that deserved a great attention, the 
second best to me.

Francis C.

On Sun Aug 1 12:11:46, way to go smartchess wrote:
> These vote percentages are a travesty.  
> f4 got less than 2% of the vote despite being recommended by GM 
> Danny King.  And look how many votes Ra4 gets (despite King's opinion 
> that in this line Kasporov has a better chance for win than the world 
> for a draw).
> It's just ridiculous.  My apologies go out to all the people working 
> on f4 and Rh8.  Perhaps it's the means, not the end that matters so 
> your work was not a complete waste.

On Sun Aug 1 12:35:08, Michel Gagne C.M. wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> Thanks to everyone. 
> 
> That's was an interesting adventure with all of you.
> 
> I had hope for a draw, but now I wish you good luck.
> 
> Have a nice summer.
> 
> Michel
> www.michelgagne.com 
>
.

nt

On Sun Aug 1 12:19:29, steni wrote:
> On Sun Aug 1 12:00:37, Baieruss Trinos wrote:
> > Hi...I'm not sure if u looked at my earlier post, but, I believe that 
> > GM Kasparov will play 25. f3! and we can reply with 25. Bd4+!
> > 
> > I dont understand why many of the FAQ's are not too interested in the 
> > f3 line. Yesterday, on the chat with GM Danny King, he too showed 
> > some interest in the f3 line...let's look at this line more, it might 
> > have more to it than it seems.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > On Sun Aug 1 11:54:03, steni wrote:
> > > I don't like this race-variation very much - maybe someone can help 
> > > me to make some improvements for
> > > black...
> > > 
> > > 21.h3 Rxa4 
> > > 22.Rxa4 Qxa4 
> > > 23.Qxh7 Bxb2 
> > > 24.Qxg6 Qe4 
> > > 25.Qg8 d5 
> > > 26.h4 d4 (FAQ gives Rd1 and nothing else) 
> > > 27.h5 d3 
> > > 28.h6 Nd4 
> > > 29.h7 Ne2+ 
> > > 30.Kh2 Qg4 
> > > 31.g3 Qf3 
> > > 32.h8Q Bxh8
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Steni...
> > > 
> 
> why should he play f3 when he can win without commiting weakness in 
> the pawns in front of the king?
> 

To try to take the f5 pawn? And f3 doesn't actually weaken the king 
much, IMO.
> steni

We seem in very good shape on 22.Rac1. He'll play that for a draw, I 
expect.

If he wants to beat us, he has to beat us in the pawn race after Rxa4.

Is Qxh7 serious? I haven't looked at that.

By the way, I have a refutation of Bd2.


On Sun Aug 1 12:25:23, Confucius wrote:
> The exchange variation or the noughty R somewhere?

Copied from below, this one is just a sample extension of a line Ross 
already posted:

22. Rac1 Bxb2 23. Rb1 Qc3 24. Qxh7 Qg7 25. Qxg7 Bxg7 26. Rxb6 Nd8 27. 
Re1 Ra1! 28. Kf1 Rxe1+ 29. Kxe1 Bd4 etc.

This one is new I think.  It may be worthless, I have not had time to 
study it yet although Fritz gives it a smile.  I present it here for 
further work:

22. Rac1 Bxb2 23. Rce1 Qc4!? 24. Qxh7 Ra8!? keeping white's queen off 
the back rank and avoiding the lines where white gets to chase our 
king around,  25. Qxg6 Qd5 and black is better than fine, according 
to Fritz. If 25. Rb1 Bd4 is even better.

After 22. Rxa4 Qxa4, 23. Qxh7 Bxb2, 24. Qxg6 Qe4, 25. Qg8! (best -- 
the GM School gives it a "!") instead of 25... d5 the move 
25... Kc7!? looks bizarre but it seems to work.  The point is if 26. 
Bd2 Bd4, 27. Re1 Qc2!, 28. Be3 (forced) Bxe3, 29. Rxe3 Qd1+, 30 Kh2 
f4 and Black is probably O.K.  The idea behind 25... Kc7 is that the 
e-pawn doesn't advance right away so that a Qg7 move by White is not 
a check.

White can also try 26. Qf7 d5, 27. h4 b5, 28. Kh1 Kb6, 29. h5 b4, 30. 
Be3+ Kc7, 31. Rd1 Bd4, 32. Qg8 It looks like Black can win the h-pawn 
with a check but the black d-pawn is unprotected so White can get his 
pawn back: 32... Qh4+, 33. Kg1 Qxh5, 34. g4 (not 34. Rxd4?? and the 
attempt to win two pieces for a rook fails because of 34... Nxd4, 35. 
Bxd4 Qd1+) 34... Qh8, 35. Qxd5 Bxe3, 36. fxe3 fxg4, 37. Qd7+ Kb6, 38. 
Qxg4 Qc3 and Black is certainly O.K.

This last variation is by no means forced, of course, but Black is 
much better here than after 25. Qg8 d5?!, 26. Bd2! as in my last post.

Maybe this is Russian teaching technique, I personally don't like it. 
 Wish they would stop giving "cooperative variations" or not 
publishing variations which compete with their own assessment

p.s.  I sure hope Kasparov is getting the feeling I get when I play a 
strong chess program, get what should be a crushing advantage, and 
have it weasel and worm its way to a win.

After being analysing different 22. rook moves for hours, I came to 
the conclusion that Gary most probably will play 22.Rxa4, if he wants 
to get more than equal chances. after which 22...Rxa4 23. Qxh7 Bxb2 
24.Qxg6 Qe4 looks pretty forced.

Now what will whites 25. move be? All the proposed moves 25.Qg8, 
25.Qf7, 25.f3!? ( Danny King ) and 25.h4!? look very considerable 
alternatives, each with its plusses and drawbacks. After spending 
some hours going thru those lines and being unable to find clear 
improvements for white, I began to analyse the structure of positions 
arising in those lines and realised that in many of them some piece 
at d4 was hurting whites plans. Hence I came up with 25.Be3. Besides 
covering d4, 25.Be3 allso threatens Bxb6, et the nice tactical motiv 
g4!


Its been only like four hours after I found the move, so the analysis 
may be quite subjective, anyway I think 25.Be3!? is worth closer look.

25.Be3!?

a) 25...d5 26.Bxb6 d4 27.Qg3!? and I think white stands better

b)25...Bd4 - of course black can still play a piece to d4, but the 
essential assumption is that the immediate swap of minor pieces helps 
white. - 26.Bxd4 Nxd4 27.Qg5 b5/d5 28.Qe3 in general I dont like the 
positions where black is playing with a Knight against rook. The 
jumping fellow is simply so slow, it cant play on the both sides of 
the board at the same time.

c) 25...Nd4 26.Bxd4 Bxd4 - the bishop can control both sides of the 
board but... - 27.g4! e6 ( what else? ) 28.exf5 ( 28.Qf7!? doesnt 
look too good for black either ) gxf5 29.Qg2 and the ensuing ending 
in my opinion, after analysing some lines, is quite difficult for 
black. Note how much different these endings would be if black would 
have two minor pieces instead of one!

finally

d) 25...b5 26.g4 ( the motive of 25.Be3!? ) and now:

d1) 26...e6? 27.Qf7+ +-

d2) 26...Ne5 27.Qxf5+ Qxf5 28.gxf5 Nf3+ 29.Kg2! Nh4+ 30.Kg3 Nxf5+ 
31.Kg4 Nxe3?! ( probably bad but otherwise Rb1 would follow winning a 
pawn, i.e. black is in bad shape already ) 32.fxe3 and the h-pawn is 
very dangerous like I think its in all the endings arising after 
25.Be3!?

d3) 26...b4

d31) 27.exf5!? - white threatens 28.Qg4 - 27...Ne5 28.Qe6+ Kd8 29.Rd1 
Nf3+ 30.Kf1 Nh2+ 31.Ke2 Qf3+ 32.Kd2 and tho I dont underestimate 
blacks tactical resources I think the only side playing for a win is 
white. Especially I dont like the misplaced h2-Knight.
If black wants to find an improvement in this line, it must be 
probably on the 27. move. Black may prevent the threat Qg4 allso by 
playing his Queen or King to some square. Notice that with the Queens 
of the board the b-pawn is never a serious problem for white!

d32) 27.Qxf5+ - I found this move harmful allso - 27...Qxf5 28.gxf5 
d5 ( I admit it looks threatening both d- and b-pawns advancing 
but... ) 29.h4 ( hurry, hurry h-pawn to tie either the king or minor 
piece to stop it, or even better more than just one of blacks pieces 
) 29...d4 30 Bf4 and Ill stop here, theres two motives that are to 
whites advantage: the above mentioned h-pawn tying pieces blacs 
pieces to defense and the difficulties black encounters when trying 
to advance the pawns, now that queens are of the board.


It took me like 5-6 hours to make this analysis ( about 2 hours of 
analysing the positional motives and some three-four hours of line 
analysis ) , so there must some be flaws, anyway 25.Be3!? looks 
promising. Im now going to take some zzzzzz, and continuing to 
analyse this fascinating position tomorrow.


PS. Please answer Smart Chess Online, have you considered this move 
25.Be3 and if you begin to analyse it and find a refutation, i.e. a 
line where black obtains equality, please, PLEASE post it here, so 
that I can switch to analysing something else. My current opinion is 
that 25.Be3 causes black problems.
Allso, Ivent checked this with a computer, I hope someone could do 
that, tho I think computers to be somewhat weak in endings, pawn 
advances out of its horizont.

nt

On Sun Aug 1 14:00:14, IM2429 FIN wrote:
> After being analysing different 22. rook moves for hours, I came to 
> the conclusion that Gary most probably will play 22.Rxa4, if he wants 
> to get more than equal chances. after which 22...Rxa4 23. Qxh7 Bxb2 
> 24.Qxg6 Qe4 looks pretty forced.
> 
> Now what will whites 25. move be? All the proposed moves 25.Qg8, 
> 25.Qf7, 25.f3!? ( Danny King ) and 25.h4!? look very considerable 
> alternatives, each with its plusses and drawbacks. After spending 
> some hours going thru those lines and being unable to find clear 
> improvements for white, I began to analyse the structure of positions 
> arising in those lines and realised that in many of them some piece 
> at d4 was hurting whites plans. Hence I came up with 25.Be3. Besides 
> covering d4, 25.Be3 allso threatens Bxb6, et the nice tactical motiv 
> g4!
> 
> 
> Its been only like four hours after I found the move, so the analysis 
> may be quite subjective, anyway I think 25.Be3!? is worth closer look.
> 
> 25.Be3!?
> 
> a) 25...d5 26.Bxb6 d4 27.Qg3!? and I think white stands better
> 
> b)25...Bd4 - of course black can still play a piece to d4, but the 
> essential assumption is that the immediate swap of minor pieces helps 
> white. - 26.Bxd4 Nxd4 27.Qg5 b5/d5 28.Qe3 in general I dont like the 
> positions where black is playing with a Knight against rook. The 
> jumping fellow is simply so slow, it cant play on the both sides of 
> the board at the same time.
> 
> c) 25...Nd4 26.Bxd4 Bxd4 - the bishop can control both sides of the 
> board but... - 27.g4! e6 ( what else? ) 28.exf5 ( 28.Qf7!? doesnt 
> look too good for black either ) gxf5 29.Qg2 and the ensuing ending 
> in my opinion, after analysing some lines, is quite difficult for 
> black. Note how much different these endings would be if black would 
> have two minor pieces instead of one!
> 
> finally
> 
> d) 25...b5 26.g4 ( the motive of 25.Be3!? ) and now:
> 
> d1) 26...e6? 27.Qf7+ +-
> 
> d2) 26...Ne5 27.Qxf5+ Qxf5 28.gxf5 Nf3+ 29.Kg2! Nh4+ 30.Kg3 Nxf5+ 
> 31.Kg4 Nxe3?! ( probably bad but otherwise Rb1 would follow winning a 
> pawn, i.e. black is in bad shape already ) 32.fxe3 and the h-pawn is 
> very dangerous like I think its in all the endings arising after 
> 25.Be3!?
> 
> d3) 26...b4
> 
> d31) 27.exf5!? - white threatens 28.Qg4 - 27...Ne5 28.Qe6+ Kd8 29.Rd1 
> Nf3+ 30.Kf1 Nh2+ 31.Ke2 Qf3+ 32.Kd2 and tho I dont underestimate 
> blacks tactical resources I think the only side playing for a win is 
> white. Especially I dont like the misplaced h2-Knight.
> If black wants to find an improvement in this line, it must be 
> probably on the 27. move. Black may prevent the threat Qg4 allso by 
> playing his Queen or King to some square. Notice that with the Queens 
> of the board the b-pawn is never a serious problem for white!
> 
> d32) 27.Qxf5+ - I found this move harmful allso - 27...Qxf5 28.gxf5 
> d5 ( I admit it looks threatening both d- and b-pawns advancing 
> but... ) 29.h4 ( hurry, hurry h-pawn to tie either the king or minor 
> piece to stop it, or even better more than just one of blacks pieces 
> ) 29...d4 30 Bf4 and Ill stop here, theres two motives that are to 
> whites advantage: the above mentioned h-pawn tying pieces blacs 
> pieces to defense and the difficulties black encounters when trying 
> to advance the pawns, now that queens are of the board.
> 
> 
> It took me like 5-6 hours to make this analysis ( about 2 hours of 
> analysing the positional motives and some three-four hours of line 
> analysis ) , so there must some be flaws, anyway 25.Be3!? looks 
> promising. Im now going to take some zzzzzz, and continuing to 
> analyse this fascinating position tomorrow.
> 
> 
> PS. Please answer Smart Chess Online, have you considered this move 
> 25.Be3 and if you begin to analyse it and find a refutation, i.e. a 
> line where black obtains equality, please, PLEASE post it here, so 
> that I can switch to analysing something else. My current opinion is 
> that 25.Be3 causes black problems.
> Allso, Ivent checked this with a computer, I hope someone could do 
> that, tho I think computers to be somewhat weak in endings, pawn 
> advances out of its horizont.
 
 Hi,

 If the Group of Four and FAQ links find a Black
reply to 25. Be3, the maybe so will Garry, and
White may consider, 22. Rac1 or other alternative.

 Sam

It's getting harder and harder to find "this might win" lines 
for White - and he wants to win this bad (he always wants to win bad).

The rumor is he's burning the midnight oil on this game, not on his 
Anand preparation.

On Sun Aug 1 13:12:44, Brian McCarthy wrote:
>      I am happy with our position as it hasplayed out. We made the 
> best move and recommendations of moves in the time allowed.
>       So now will Garri take a gamble and try to decide things while 
> Irina is playing, or go for the long term, which promises little. 
> 
> Either way, the game is coming under control and we should be able to 
> keep our level of play in the 2800 range, as we have since Ne4!, so 
> Garri won't be disappointed!

Point is: worry about Rac1 or other moves (not Rxa4) today! We'll 
have a week to analyze 25.Be3 and 25.f3 (the two recent candidate 
moves).


On Sun Aug 1 14:00:14, IM2429 FIN wrote:
> After being analysing different 22. rook moves for hours, I came to 
> the conclusion that Gary most probably will play 22.Rxa4, if he wants 
> to get more than equal chances. after which 22...Rxa4 23. Qxh7 Bxb2 
> 24.Qxg6 Qe4 looks pretty forced.
> 
> Now what will whites 25. move be? All the proposed moves 25.Qg8, 
> 25.Qf7, 25.f3!? ( Danny King ) and 25.h4!? look very considerable 
> alternatives, each with its plusses and drawbacks. After spending 
> some hours going thru those lines and being unable to find clear 
> improvements for white, I began to analyse the structure of positions 
> arising in those lines and realised that in many of them some piece 
> at d4 was hurting whites plans. Hence I came up with 25.Be3. Besides 
> covering d4, 25.Be3 allso threatens Bxb6, et the nice tactical motiv 
> g4!
> 
> 
> Its been only like four hours after I found the move, so the analysis 
> may be quite subjective, anyway I think 25.Be3!? is worth closer look.
> 
> 25.Be3!?
> 
> a) 25...d5 26.Bxb6 d4 27.Qg3!? and I think white stands better
> 
> b)25...Bd4 - of course black can still play a piece to d4, but the 
> essential assumption is that the immediate swap of minor pieces helps 
> white. - 26.Bxd4 Nxd4 27.Qg5 b5/d5 28.Qe3 in general I dont like the 
> positions where black is playing with a Knight against rook. The 
> jumping fellow is simply so slow, it cant play on the both sides of 
> the board at the same time.
> 
> c) 25...Nd4 26.Bxd4 Bxd4 - the bishop can control both sides of the 
> board but... - 27.g4! e6 ( what else? ) 28.exf5 ( 28.Qf7!? doesnt 
> look too good for black either ) gxf5 29.Qg2 and the ensuing ending 
> in my opinion, after analysing some lines, is quite difficult for 
> black. Note how much different these endings would be if black would 
> have two minor pieces instead of one!
> 
> finally
> 
> d) 25...b5 26.g4 ( the motive of 25.Be3!? ) and now:
> 
> d1) 26...e6? 27.Qf7+ +-
> 
> d2) 26...Ne5 27.Qxf5+ Qxf5 28.gxf5 Nf3+ 29.Kg2! Nh4+ 30.Kg3 Nxf5+ 
> 31.Kg4 Nxe3?! ( probably bad but otherwise Rb1 would follow winning a 
> pawn, i.e. black is in bad shape already ) 32.fxe3 and the h-pawn is 
> very dangerous like I think its in all the endings arising after 
> 25.Be3!?
> 
> d3) 26...b4
> 
> d31) 27.exf5!? - white threatens 28.Qg4 - 27...Ne5 28.Qe6+ Kd8 29.Rd1 
> Nf3+ 30.Kf1 Nh2+ 31.Ke2 Qf3+ 32.Kd2 and tho I dont underestimate 
> blacks tactical resources I think the only side playing for a win is 
> white. Especially I dont like the misplaced h2-Knight.
> If black wants to find an improvement in this line, it must be 
> probably on the 27. move. Black may prevent the threat Qg4 allso by 
> playing his Queen or King to some square. Notice that with the Queens 
> of the board the b-pawn is never a serious problem for white!
> 
> d32) 27.Qxf5+ - I found this move harmful allso - 27...Qxf5 28.gxf5 
> d5 ( I admit it looks threatening both d- and b-pawns advancing 
> but... ) 29.h4 ( hurry, hurry h-pawn to tie either the king or minor 
> piece to stop it, or even better more than just one of blacks pieces 
> ) 29...d4 30 Bf4 and Ill stop here, theres two motives that are to 
> whites advantage: the above mentioned h-pawn tying pieces blacs 
> pieces to defense and the difficulties black encounters when trying 
> to advance the pawns, now that queens are of the board.
> 
> 
> It took me like 5-6 hours to make this analysis ( about 2 hours of 
> analysing the positional motives and some three-four hours of line 
> analysis ) , so there must some be flaws, anyway 25.Be3!? looks 
> promising. Im now going to take some zzzzzz, and continuing to 
> analyse this fascinating position tomorrow.
> 
> 
> PS. Please answer Smart Chess Online, have you considered this move 
> 25.Be3 and if you begin to analyse it and find a refutation, i.e. a 
> line where black obtains equality, please, PLEASE post it here, so 
> that I can switch to analysing something else. My current opinion is 
> that 25.Be3 causes black problems.
> Allso, Ivent checked this with a computer, I hope someone could do 
> that, tho I think computers to be somewhat weak in endings, pawn 
> advances out of its horizont.

I think I might have discover a possible attack from GK like this:

22. Pg3 (gives White King more space) Rxa8 (black takes the rook)
23. Rxa8 (now the whole "a" column is wide open)

So GK can send the only rook left down and attack from the 8th rank 
with the Queen!

What do u think?

Btw, I just logged in and saw a 1.84% for f4.

WHAT A BUMMER.

Looking at the BBS generally speaking, the hours before the vote ppl 
are swinging away from Rxa4 into f4.

If, say 20% of ppl on the BBS votes for f4 (conservatively, I 
suspect it's about 35-45), then only a disappointing 10% of the 
voters actually look at the BBS (not surprising, but disappointing no 
less).

The lessons are this :

(a) If you want to sell a move : FIND IT EARLY! In fact, find it 
BEFORE GK makes his move. This is the only way to influence the 
Panellists (esp. Irina, which is reminding me of General 
Patton....for better or for worse).

(b) If a move is NOT recommended : don't waste resources analyzing it 
(unless of course you do it for fun). It'll never get played.

Finally, as I have suspected all along, it's really not "World vs 
GK". I think it's more Panellists vs GK. Now, those who want to 
shoot me shoot me now. But the World votes for the panellists 
recommendations (which is biased towards certain moves, given the 
panellists' preference, a fair thing.). 

Those who say the panellists "watch the BBS" and then select 
the moves are kidding themselves : f4 was pushed by regular BBS ppl. 
A "strange" move indeed.

If we gonna have another Game like this, the following changes would 
be welcomed :

(a) NO PANELLISTS (though I suspect we will have self-appointed 
"leaders" in no time having the websites posting the 
recommendations.)

(B) If there has to be panellists, then only let them post their 
"recommendations", say 4 hours before voting close. This way, 
they will have most of the day to analyze, and also takes 
recommedations from the BBS, before "jumping in". It's hard 
for a penalist to "turn his/her back" on their own 
recommendations.

I really would like to get my hands on the "voting data", 
especially on the "vote vs time" plot (i.e. what hour which 
move is most popular.) Because that's would really make a cool 
statistics paper :).

E.

Anybody seen this one yet? (instead of 24 .. Rb4)

The pawn on b3 is dead meat eventually. I think Black should start 
challenging for central control first, and maybe drum up some kind of 
attack on the WK.

Even now, it's hard to find a good white move, the natural 25 Rfe1 
loses to Bh2+. So maybe :

25 Kh1!? Nd4
26 Rd3 b5 honestly I already like black.

E.

Here is a pretty good line for black if 22 Rad1

22 Rad1 Qc4
23 Qxh7 Qe6
24 Rfe1 Ra8 (with the idea of trapping the queen)
25 Pf4  Rh8
26 QxR  BxQ
26 RxQ  KxR
27 Pb3  

Black seems to be in reasonable shape

I have played out some games after 22.Rxa4 and they don't look 
bad for white. I think we should consider this possibility.

       -MM

I posted several days ago about the current continuation. I know it's 
too late but Rh8 is the move. We needed to keep the rook. I know I'm 
no expert, but I see the continuation...

22) Rxa4 Qxa4
23) Qxh7 Bxd2
24) Re1  Bd4
25) Qxg6... and now White's h pawn can not be stopped.

I know there is some optimism and I hope that with the GM pool at our 
disposable the we can hold on. I just feel (Like Nd4 and d5 earlier) 
that our best move was to save the rook and kep the Q from cleaning 
up our king side pawns.

I hope we can draw.

On Sun Aug 1 17:33:49, WJG wrote:
> Can we still take the pawn on b2 after white plays
> 22.Rab1

Forgot to mention if Bb2 and 23.Rfe1 what do we play?

On Sun Aug 1 21:48:49, Killdozer wrote:
> [na=no analysis]
> 
> Krush lost today in the U.S. Junior Chess Championships in San 
> Francisco.  She now has 2 wins and 3 losses and is in a 3 way tie for 
> 6th place after the 5th of 9 rounds:
> http://www.milibrary.org/chess/frame.html
> 
> Khalifman of the GM Chess School avoided elimination in the first 
> round of the World Chess Championship in Las Vegas by winning today.  
> The tiebreaker will be played tomorrow.  Match results can be found 
> at:
> http://www.worldfide.com/chess/index.cgi?section=9
> 
> In other news, Spiriev Peter Alain participated in a chess analysis 
> exhibition match in Budapest, Hungary today.  However, he was 
> disqualified after requesting money for his analysis from the 
> spectators.  Portisch, who was in attendance, laughed so hard that 
> the earth shook, causing him to fall backwards off his chair and hit 
> his head.
> 
> -Killdozer

Funny. This site could almost have a newletter :)

for wh22.Rac1,Bxb2
23.Rb1,Qc3
24.Qxh7,Qg7
25.Qxg7,Bxg7
26.Rxg6,Kc8(im not sure)


i think this position is interesting, and even though a pawn behind, 
to me is a nice advantage for black

On Sun Aug 1 23:49:58, another  wrote:
> 
> >          "24" Qg3         Rg5  "Rg4" ( the Black
> > rook is on the fouth rank).
> 
> Did you mean to also correct "Qg3" to "Qxg6" ?
 
 Yes, thank you, Now to get Fritz or the 
Computer Chess Club to analyize 22. Rac1 h6!?

 Sam

In the current GM School analysis:

http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/english/kasworld/sici39.html

They say:

21...Rxa4 22.Rxa4 Qxa4 23.Qxh7 Bxb2 24.Qxg6
24...Qc2!?
25.Re1 Nd4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27.Be3 Bxe3 28.Rxe3 b5 

I don't understand 2 things:

A) Why would white play 27 Be3 instead of 27 Qxe7+.
B) How is 27...Bxe3 possible? Our bishop is on b2.

Are these typos or am I missing something?

Ed

On Mon Aug 2 01:04:55, Ed Lee wrote:
> In the current GM School analysis:
> 
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/english/kasworld/sici39.html
> 
> They say:
> 
> 21...Rxa4 22.Rxa4 Qxa4 23.Qxh7 Bxb2 24.Qxg6
> 24...Qc2!?
> 25.Re1 Nd4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27.Be3 Bxe3 28.Rxe3 b5 
> 
> Are these typos or am I missing something?
> 
> Ed
   25...Nd4 must be a typo for 25...Bd4.  After Nd4 26. Qe6?? loses 
to Ne6
   DCA

On Mon Aug 2 01:04:55, Ed Lee wrote:
> In the current GM School analysis:
> 
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/english/kasworld/sici39.html
> 
> They say:
> 
> 21...Rxa4 22.Rxa4 Qxa4 23.Qxh7 Bxb2 24.Qxg6
> 24...Qc2!?
> 25.Re1 Nd4 26.Qe6+ Kc7 27.Be3 Bxe3 28.Rxe3 b5 
> 
> I don't understand 2 things:
> 
> A) Why would white play 27 Be3 instead of 27 Qxe7+.
> B) How is 27...Bxe3 possible? Our bishop is on b2.
> 
> Are these typos or am I missing something?
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
Move 26. Qe6+ is clearly a mistake, so if it's
a typing error etc... but that's not the way forward.

Just wondering how many people around

Just post a reply to this so all of us can see how may people here

regards

Has anyone spent any in depth time looking at alternative responses 
to Rc1 other than 22. ...Bf4? I'm assuming Bxb2 is playable - though 
I don't think Qb2 is. 

DK

This is really insulting.
Why couldn't it have been Garry Kasparov VS. The 5 top grandmasters 
of the world? That goes ahead and rules out the blunderous stradegy 
of the common folk. "The World". Not blunderous, but...less 
experienced. What does this win mean for Garry? Absolutly nothing. 
Thats like having this...example. "Okay students of cradle bay 
high school, today we're bringing in the top math major of so and so 
college. He has a phd in math by the way, you all are going to 
compete with him. We'll set up some math problems of an extremly high 
caliber and we'll see if our smartest high school students can defeat 
this human calculator with his Phd. It makes absolutely NO SENSE. 
Rather, they should bring in Phd majors VS. Phd magors. You catch my 
drift. Bobby Fischer is probably laughing his tail off.

On Tue Aug 3 17:08:49, Henry wrote:
> What does this win mean for Garry? Absolutly nothing. 

You may be right.  But the point of this game is not to test the 
world champion yet again (though that is a secondary attraction).  It 
is to test the world--specifically, the internet.  If we draw this 
game, I'd say that would mean something for the world.  Numerous 
people have commented on the interesting study in sociology, 
democracy, electronic communication channels, etc. this game is 
providing.  To draw or win against the world champion would go quite 
a long way toward validating this sort of thing.  But even if we 
lose, the efforts we made are still there for study.

On Tue Aug 3 18:16:17, Thorin N. Tatge wrote:
> On Tue Aug 3 17:08:49, Henry wrote:
> > What does this win mean for Garry? Absolutly nothing. 
> 
> You may be right.  But the point of this game is not to test the 
> world champion yet again (though that is a secondary attraction).  It 
> is to test the world--specifically, the internet.  If we draw this 
> game, I'd say that would mean something for the world.  Numerous 
> people have commented on the interesting study in sociology, 
> democracy, electronic communication channels, etc. this game is 
> providing.  To draw or win against the world champion would go quite 
> a long way toward validating this sort of thing.  But even if we 
> lose, the efforts we made are still there for study.
***That's right, Thorin;  the process itself is important - win, 
lose, or draw, as we'll see in the future with events like this.
***RLL

On Tue Aug 3 18:16:17, Thorin N. Tatge wrote:
> On Tue Aug 3 17:08:49, Henry wrote:
> > What does this win mean for Garry? Absolutly nothing. 
> 
> You may be right.  But the point of this game is not to test the 
> world champion yet again (though that is a secondary attraction).  It 
> is to test the world--specifically, the internet.  If we draw this 
> game, I'd say that would mean something for the world.  Numerous 
> people have commented on the interesting study in sociology, 
> democracy, electronic communication channels, etc. this game is 
> providing.  To draw or win against the world champion would go quite 
> a long way toward validating this sort of thing.  But even if we 
> lose, the efforts we made are still there for study.

     Nope, sorry, I'd have to agree with Henry.  "The World" 
so to speak, does not have much of a say in this game.  Even if Joe 
Redneck from powdunk Arkansas has a brilliant idea that will win this 
chess match for sure, it will go un-noticed because the majority 
always votes  based on the suggestions of the analysts.  Have you 
seen a move yet where this wasn't so?  It's really no different than 
watching Kasporov play a computer.  As for the social and political 
influence, just look at the comments on this page.  What do you see?  
You see loads of people that each think they are the world expert 
griping that "The World Team" are a bunch of losers because 
nobody listened to their individual 'expert' opinion.  It's a world 
wide bitch session.

If you voted for a person who lost in an election even
though that person was (obviously!) the best person, does that mean 
there should never be an election???




> 
>      Nope, sorry, I'd have to agree with Henry.  "The World" 
> so to speak, does not have much of a say in this game.  Even if Joe 
> Redneck from powdunk Arkansas has a brilliant idea that will win this 
> chess match for sure, it will go un-noticed because the majority 
> always votes  based on the suggestions of the analysts.  Have you 
> seen a move yet where this wasn't so?  It's really no different than 
> watching Kasporov play a computer.  As for the social and political 
> influence, just look at the comments on this page.  What do you see?  
> You see loads of people that each think they are the world expert 
> griping that "The World Team" are a bunch of losers because 
> nobody listened to their individual 'expert' opinion.  It's a world 
> wide bitch session.

On Tue Aug 3 22:10:40, pkoetters wrote:
> On Tue Aug 3 21:55:40, M2200 wrote:
> > 
> > You are right in what you say, no doubt about that,
> > but you tend to be too emotional.
> > Better would be to advise the folks on the general
> > stratergy left open to black, that being to try and
> > maintain porn advantage. If done properly black can
> > draw even with a substantial material deficit.  I do
> > agree that the line to analyze is the one you posted. 
> > You were also right when you pointed out blacks
> > blunder in not going for the safer Ke8 when we had
> > the chance to build a good King defence.
> 
> I agree!  Excellent idea.  We must maintain porn advantage!  I am 
> emailing Kasparov lascivious jpegs right now to distract him from the 
> match.  Surely among this internet-savvy crowd we have better porn 
> than he.  Black shall prevail after all!
> 

That's a good one!

Agree absolutely

Democracy is no more than mobocracy.

The counting of heads irrespective of their contents.

Ayn

Here is Crafty and Shredder's opinion on nd4. CM is also there with 
similar values. We are going to a move with only 1 line ran more than 
5 hours, versus one that has held up for days. That said Irina's line 
os doing fine so far. We may have to learn to love it. 
I am still holding out and recommending Nd4. 


old line: 23.Qxh7 Bxb2 24.Qxg6 Jim Brown 24...Qe4 25.Qf7 Nd4 26.Kh1 
b5 27.f3 Qe6 28.Qg7 b4 29.Qf8 Qe5 full 19 +0.68 64h Crafty 
16.15/solaris w/TB log.001 

23.Qxh7 Bxb2 24.Qxg6 Qe4 25.Qf7 Jim Brown 25...Nd4 26.Kh1 b5 27.Qa2 
Bc3 28.Qa8 b4 29.f3 Qd5 30.Rd1 b3 31.Qb8 Bb2 32.Re1 e6 33.Qd8+ Kc6 
<19 +0.61 45h Crafty 16.13/unix (log052) I didn't let this run 
quite all the way to 19ply. 

23.Qxh7 Bxb2 24.Qxg6 Qe4 25.Qf7 Nd4 26.Qa2 Bc3 rb 27.Qb1 27...Qxb1 
28.Rxb1 b5 29.Be3 Kc6 30.Kf1 Kc5 31.Bxd4+ Bxd4 32.Rc1+ Kb6 33.g4 fxg4 
34.hxg4 b4 35.Rc4 Bc5 36.f4 d5 37.Rc1 e6 38.Ke2 full 18 +0.28 20h 
crafty 16.15 

or 23.Qxh7 Bxb2 24.Qxg6 Qe4 25.Qf7 Nd4 26.Qa2 Bc3 27.Qb1 b5 28.Qxe4 
fxe4 rb 29.Rb1 29...f4 30.Be3 Nf5 31.g3 Kc6 32.h4 d5 33.Kg2 d4 34.Bf4 
e3 35.fxe3 dxe3 36.Rc1 e2 37.Bd2 Kd5 38.Be1 e5 39.Kf3 Bxe1 40.Rxe1 
full 19 +0.41 20h crafty 16.15 27...Qxb1 may be better than 27...b5 - 
will check 

And Shredder's opinion:

Erich Knaus 25...Nd4 26.Qa2 Ne2+ 27.Kh1 Bd4 28.Qa4+ Kc7 29.Qc4+ Kd7 
30.Be3 Bxe3 31.Qb5+ Kd8 32.Qxe2 Bd4 16/28 +0.63 8.5h 

Bd4 lines 
old line, only 1 ran out: 



23.Qxh7 Bxb2 24.Qxg6 TM 24...Qe4 25.Qf7 Bd4 26.Qb3 Qe5 27.Bb2 Qc5 
28.Qf7 Nd8 14/31 =0.23 35h Hiarcs 7.32 

25. Qf7 DummyDave 25...Bd4 26.Kh2 Qe5+ 27.Kg1 Nd8 28.Qb3 e6 29.Bd2 
Kc8 30.Re1 15 -.28/=    Fritz 5.32 Quick analysis to confirm 2...Bd4 
is our move 


Here's Irina's best vs Spiriev, but they leave the FAQ quickly, Bc5 
may be the real problem.

25.Qf7 Bd4 Logray 26. Qb3 26...f4 27. Qf7 Be5 28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 
30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qd3 Qc4 32. Rd1 Qxd3 33. Rxd3 e6 5/14 +0.17 35+ 
hours CM6K suggested by Krush to refute 25.Qf7

Using Fritz 4.01, with all moves evaluated to a depth of at least 12, 
the following "killer line" was explored.  The projected game 
is ajourned with White possessing a Rook and Pawn, while Black has a 
Knight and a doomed Pawn that will soon be taken by White.

The "Killer line" as I understand it goes like this:

25. Qf7    Bd4
26. Qb3    Be5
27. Qb1    ...

Now here is where Fritz kicks in.

27. ...    Qxb1
28. Rxb1   e5

I have misgivings about accepting a Queen exchange, and believe it is 
a good idea to find alternatives for Black so as to keep the Queen.  
However, I just let Fritz Fritz on.

29. h4      f4
30. h5      Ke6
31. Rb3     Kf5
32. h6      Kg6
33. Rh3     Kh7
34. g4      Bd4

That g4 move by White is what IMHO starts Black's tenuous defense to 
crumbling.

35. Kf1     b5
36. Bf6     Bb6
37. Kg2     Bd8
38. g5      Bxf6
39. g5xBf6  Nd8

Oh, horrors. Now the Bishops are exchanged, leaving the Knight vs 
Rook ending that is apt to doom Black.  And IMHO it starts doing just 
that.

40. Kf3     Nf7
41. Ke4     Kg6
42. h7      Nh8
43. Kd5     Kxf6
44. Kxd6    Nf7+

Black is clearly scraping the bottom of the barrel, or Fritz at a 
depth of 12 simply cannot find anything better.  But the picking just 
don't look any better.

45. Kc5     Kg7
46. Rh5     f3
47. Kxb5    Nd6+
48. Kb4     Kh8
49. Rxe5    Kxh7

It does not look like Black can save any of his remaining pawns, 
either.

50. Re3     Nf7
51. Rxf3    Kg6

Board position is White: King b4, Rook f3, Pawn f2.
Black: King g6, Knight f7, doomed pawn b7.

Fritz 4.01 scored the position +- 2.47, Whites favor.  While I don't 
have time yet to finish out the projected game, a person has to 
wonder if Black's King-Knight (the doomed pawn doesn't count) 
combination stands any chance of a draw against White's 
King-Rook-Pawn combination.  I am guessing White can grind out a 
victory by forcing Black to give up his Knight in order to stop 
White's f2 pawn from Queening.

And please let me know if you can find any improvements for Black in 
this line, since clearly we must find something better in case White 
does play this "killer line".

-Regards, Steve B.

On Sun Aug 8 23:24:42, Where is your analysis? any moves?? wrote:

His logic is flawless, the bishop's lone job right now is to stop the 
queen on h8, it can do that from b2, the bishop is never hanging on 
b2 due to qe1-e5+!
the best square for the knight is d4, e5 is defensive and in the way, 
from d4 we are a check away from clearing diagonal, prevent Qb3, as 
he pointed out, and guard b5 for our 1st advance of pawn. We can get 
our knight to e2, then control our queening square with Nc3, it has 
held up to 72 hrs of analysis. It is the better move according to the 
CC Club analysis, Smart Chess likes their move Bd4 and only so many 
hours are in a day. We probably will have to have faith that they saw 
lines good enough to draw. 


> Analysis please????
> 
> On Sun Aug 8 23:21:04, Chris wrote:
> > If we don't advance our pawns they are not worth anything they are 
> > cannon fodder for the rook. 
> > 
> > 25. Bd4 is wrong. steals best square for the knight and does not stop 
> > Qb3.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Right moves are. 
> > 25. Qf7 Nd4 
> > 26. Kh1 (d5 or b5 )
> > 
> > Bd4 is just not floating my boat. I see Qb3 and more garbage for 
> > black to lose pawns and white to run all over the board crushing with 
> > his rook in the endgame.
> > 
> > d5 is very good as well as Nd4. 
> > 
> > 25 d5 Rd1 
> > 26 Nd4 Kh1 (black is fine here) 
> > 
> > short lines yes but we can barely agree on Kasparov's next move. so 2 
> > or 3 moves  out is good. 
> > 
> > computers all agree with Nd4 Kh1 b5 beyond depth 14.
> > 
> > I am thinking d5 followed by Kd6 might be a option.
> > 
> > also Ba3 supporting the e7 with a extra defender if Bd2. might not be 
> > such a bad idea. 
> > 
> > e5 is sorta bad but not entirely out of question. after d5 kd6. 
> > dangers of early e5 are Qf8 or Qg8 with Qd8+ our king escapes to c6 
> > and is fine to advance with our pawns. white has to spend extra moves 
> > to reach d8. 
> > 
> > 
> > Just my opinion Nd4 then move a passed pawn either d5 or b5. I have 
> > not really decided which pawn to push just yet. kinda waiting to see 
> > what Kasparov responds with to Nd4. 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >

I can tell by the candidates that you are letting the desire to get 
in f3, crowd out other candidates:

After the f4 main line, I have been suggesting for days, it seems  
Rd1 is a simple move that gets more than a half pawn edge and is not 
mentioned in the FAQ:

26. Qb3 f4 27 Qf7 f4 28 Rd1!!? Only 28 f3?, Qb3? and h3?! are 
considered, i have to wonder about a line where we are only 
considering the worst possible moves!! Especially since I have 
refuted every Spiriev line i have looked at so far in the whole game. 

Rd1 is much, much more logical:  f3 seems the only chance to stay 
near a 1/2 pawn:
pv Qf7 f3 gxf3 Qe5 Bf4 Qe2 Qf5+ Kd8 Qe4 Qc4 Rc1 Qg8+ Kf1 d5 Qf5 +60 
[Zarkov] 

Once Be5 is played it gets worse: 
pv Rd1 b5 h4 b4 h5 Qc2 Rf1 Qe2 Qf5+ Kc7 Qh3 +65 [Zarkov]  
Of course this is just 1 line, may be an easy answer, but it is 
clearly better than the straw men on the FAQ.

I have been ahead of the GM Chess and FAQ for a few days now, I saw 
Bc5 was suspect 1st, and moved to ...f4, then I found this one line 
after a billion nodes that just can't be shaken easily. Hence I still 
think we need to consider Qe2 and making a draw in an exchange for a 
pawn position where we may have a real initiative and a safe king 
that can deal with any H pawn. 

I am sure we all would like to have more concrete data, but there are 
only 2 real moves to me for Qb3,...f4 and Qe2. Perhaps GM chess can 
rehab Kc7 but by then voting may be over.


 
> Once Be5 is played it gets worse: 
> pv Rd1 b5 h4 b4 h5 Qc2 Rf1 Qe2 Qf5+ Kc7 Qh3 +65 [Zarkov]  
> Of course this is just 1 line, may be an easy answer, but it is 
> clearly better than the straw men on the FAQ.
> 
>

On Tue Aug 10 02:39:29, Ceri wrote:
> Over breakfast, I won twice with White after 27.Qf7 and drew once 
> after 27.Qd1.


I agree Qf7 is the move, and we are being distracted by another 
Spiriev fantasy variation when we need our act together!!! 
> 
> I hope that I am wrong in my feeling that we lost our best chance in 
> rejecting 25....Nd4.
> 
> I have four days to assist before going on holiday.
> Probably about to get lots of posting saying "why wait four 
> days"?
> 
> Has anybody got any lines analysing:
> 26.Qb3   f4
> 27.Qf7 ? (I was beating f3 in this position), starting:
> 
> 27.......f3
> 28.Qxf3  Qxf3
> 29.gxf3  b5
> 30.Be3
> 
> Ceri

Another possibility !

Regards

Chess_Fang

On Tue Aug 10 02:39:29, Ceri wrote:
> Over breakfast, I won twice with White after 27.Qf7 and drew once 
> after 27.Qd1.
> 
> I hope that I am wrong in my feeling that we lost our best chance in 
> rejecting 25....Nd4.
> 
> I have four days to assist before going on holiday.
> Probably about to get lots of posting saying "why wait four 
> days"?
> 
> Has anybody got any lines analysing:
> 26.Qb3   f4
> 27.Qf7 ? (I was beating f3 in this position), starting:
> 
> 27.......f3
> 28.Qxf3  Qxf3
> 29.gxf3  b5
> 30.Be3
> 
> Ceri

On Tue Aug 10 02:49:45, Chess_Fang wrote:
> Another possibility !
> 

Be5/f4 don't go well together, blocking our dark squares and letting 
a white square rook move into play

Qb3 f4 Qf7! Be5 Rd1! pv Rd1 b5 h4 b4 h5 Qc2 Rf1 Qe2 Qf5+ Kc7 Qh3 +65 
[Zarkov]

I am letting this line run the rest of the  night, maybe there is a 
hidden resource


> Regards
> 
> Chess_Fang
> 
> On Tue Aug 10 02:39:29, Ceri wrote:
> > Over breakfast, I won twice with White after 27.Qf7 and drew once 
> > after 27.Qd1.
> > 
> > I hope that I am wrong in my feeling that we lost our best chance in 
> > rejecting 25....Nd4.
> > 
> > I have four days to assist before going on holiday.
> > Probably about to get lots of posting saying "why wait four 
> > days"?
> > 
> > Has anybody got any lines analysing:
> > 26.Qb3   f4
> > 27.Qf7 ? (I was beating f3 in this position), starting:
> > 
> > 27.......f3
> > 28.Qxf3  Qxf3
> > 29.gxf3  b5
> > 30.Be3
> > 
> > Ceri

Got flamed by MattSweeney !

A) 27.Qf7

         27.Qf7 Be5 (27.f3)
         28.Rd1 (28.f3)
         28...b5
         29.Qf8 b4 = /14
         30.

Keep up the good work Brian.

Regards

Chess_Fang


On Tue Aug 10 02:52:42, Brian McCarthy but no Rd1! wrote:
> On Tue Aug 10 02:49:45, Chess_Fang wrote:
> > Another possibility !
> > 
> 
> Be5/f4 don't go well together, blocking our dark squares and letting 
> a white square rook move into play
> 
> Qb3 f4 Qf7! Be5 Rd1! pv Rd1 b5 h4 b4 h5 Qc2 Rf1 Qe2 Qf5+ Kc7 Qh3 +65 
> [Zarkov]
> 
> I am letting this line run the rest of the  night, maybe there is a 
> hidden resource
> 
> 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Chess_Fang
> > 
> > On Tue Aug 10 02:39:29, Ceri wrote:
> > > Over breakfast, I won twice with White after 27.Qf7 and drew once 
> > > after 27.Qd1.
> > > 
> > > I hope that I am wrong in my feeling that we lost our best chance in 
> > > rejecting 25....Nd4.
> > > 
> > > I have four days to assist before going on holiday.
> > > Probably about to get lots of posting saying "why wait four 
> > > days"?
> > > 
> > > Has anybody got any lines analysing:
> > > 26.Qb3   f4
> > > 27.Qf7 ? (I was beating f3 in this position), starting:
> > > 
> > > 27.......f3
> > > 28.Qxf3  Qxf3
> > > 29.gxf3  b5
> > > 30.Be3
> > > 
> > > Ceri

On Tue Aug 10 02:57:53, Chess_Fang wrote:
> Got flamed by MattSweeney !
> 
> A) 27.Qf7
> 
>          27.Qf7 Be5 (27.f3)
>          28.Rd1 (28.f3)
>          28...b5
we might could live if Qf8, but how to stop the aggressions of this 
mad box without a hammer or liquids?? And we probably couldn't do 
those to Garri!

Rd1 b5 h4 b4 h5 Qc2 Rf1 Qe2 Qf5+ Kc7 Qh3 +65 [Zarkov] 




>          29.Qf8 b4 = /14
>          30.
> 
> Keep up the good work Brian.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Chess_Fang
> 
> 
> On Tue Aug 10 02:52:42, Brian McCarthy but no Rd1! wrote:
> > On Tue Aug 10 02:49:45, Chess_Fang wrote:
> > > Another possibility !
> > > 
> > 
> > Be5/f4 don't go well together, blocking our dark squares and letting 
> > a white square rook move into play
> > 
> > Qb3 f4 Qf7! Be5 Rd1! pv Rd1 b5 h4 b4 h5 Qc2 Rf1 Qe2 Qf5+ Kc7 Qh3 +65 
> > [Zarkov]
> > 
> > I am letting this line run the rest of the  night, maybe there is a 
> > hidden resource
> > 
> > 
> > > Regards
> > > 
> > > Chess_Fang
> > > 
> > > On Tue Aug 10 02:39:29, Ceri wrote:
> > > > Over breakfast, I won twice with White after 27.Qf7 and drew once 
> > > > after 27.Qd1.
> > > > 
> > > > I hope that I am wrong in my feeling that we lost our best chance in 
> > > > rejecting 25....Nd4.
> > > > 
> > > > I have four days to assist before going on holiday.
> > > > Probably about to get lots of posting saying "why wait four 
> > > > days"?
> > > > 
> > > > Has anybody got any lines analysing:
> > > > 26.Qb3   f4
> > > > 27.Qf7 ? (I was beating f3 in this position), starting:
> > > > 
> > > > 27.......f3
> > > > 28.Qxf3  Qxf3
> > > > 29.gxf3  b5
> > > > 30.Be3
> > > > 
> > > > Ceri

I'm not in GK's mind and can only speculate.

But I'm pretty sure that Gary would relish Qb1 and a possible queen 
exchange. should black want to avoid this, he would probably concede 
a significant positional advantage to white.

Now that's what I like about f4.

Qb1 is next to impossible because of the cheapo Bxf2+ and white 
doesn't have any killer line.(Qf7 or Qd1)

Blacks does have sufficient counterplay.

Chess_Fang

On Tue Aug 10 03:00:52, mr.e wrote:
> Speaking about computer morons!
> The always reveal themself by their long lines
> without any sort of explanation of the moves or what kind of plan 
> they have. As a computer mostly need guidance to produce something of 
> value, morons with computers often ends up with producing pure crap.
>  
> Well I admit I don't know so much myself. But I'm not totally 
> wandering in the dark.
> 
> First of all some basic facts about the current positions. 
> 
> 25.Qf7 Bd4 26.Qb3 Kc7 
> 
> might not become just an innocent transposition ( 27. Be3 Bc5 ) after 
> the direct
> 
> 27. Qb1 !? (TN Chessman)
> 
> In this type of ending Kc7, , , , h7 might be necessary to stop the 
> pawn and now the king has a longer journey.
> So in fact 26... Kc7 might be a mistake.
> 
> The same reasoning goes for the line
> 
> 25. Qf7 Bd4 26. Qb3 Bc5 27. h4 .. Kc7 
> 
> supplied by the GM school
> now 28. Qf7 can hardly be white strongest move. Did Kasparov put his 
> Queen on b3 just to return to f7 without getting anything out of it? 
> I don't think so.
>  I presume that Kasparov at least has some sort of plan with his 
> moves.
> 
> 28. Qd1 , or again
> 28. Qb1 (considering Kc7 is further away from h7)
> 
> 
> However it is not easy to find good plan for black after 27. h4 as
> his b-pawn is blocked he must find his counterplay elsewhere. 
> 
> 25. Qf7 Bd4 26. Qb3 Bc5 27. h4 .. f4?!
> 
> gives white the possibility
> 
> 28. Qh3+ Kc7 29. Qg4 and if 29... Nd4 just 30. Kh2 and order to hold 
> on to the f4-pawn (as 30... Ne2 will be punished by 31. Re1) black 
> will be forced to open up his position by 30... e5 which lets go of 
> the seventh rank as well as the f6-point. Maybe there is a way to 
> hold the position. Maybe not. In this line one must also consider 29. 
> h5 with the idea 30. Qh4.
>  The other logical attacking move.
> 
> 25. Qf7 Bd4 26. Qb3 Bc5 27. h4 .. Nd4
> 
> gives white two main lines to try out.
> A) 28. Qd1 or B) 28. Qb1
> 
> A) 
>   28. Qd1
> 
> Now as Mr. Spiriev already pointed out everything get very 
> complicated.
> 
> 28... Ne2 29. Kh2 d5 30. Re1 
> 
> and now black has the tactical counterthreat
> 
> 30... Nc3
> 
> Note that after 30... Bd6 31. Kh1 Nc3 black must be prepared to take 
> the ending after 32. Rxe4 as Spiriev or his computer either missed or 
> seems to think is OK Well I don't know. Never trust a computers 
> evaluation in this position. 
> 
> 31. Qa1 Ld6+ and now
> 
> 32. Kh1!! TN 
> 
> planning a little bit further than Spirievs 32. Kg1 just with the 
> cheap trap 32...Ne2+ 33.Kf1 and the knight is lost.  Because now  - 
> after black moving his queen (c4) protecting the knight - the 
> possible threat of Qa8 with the threats Qxb7 as well as Qf8 which 
> threatens both e7 and f5 that now could be carried out without 
> suffering from a possible Ne2+ which thus guards the e7-point. If 
> white can get away with Qa8 without being punished. Then black must 
> improve this line a least from move 29.
> In the end though, it all could end up, as the all too common wrong 
> (no plan) computer-crap.
> 
> However, even though the other proposal seems more concrete there's 
> still a risk that things could get complicated.
> 
> B) 
>   28. Qb1 !? (Carrol Chessman)
> 
> The plan is to force black into an ending or taking charge of e4. If 
> 
> 28... Qg4 then first 
> 
> 29. Kh2  
> 
> move the king to avoid Nf3 (not 29. Kh1 because of Nf3 anyway, cannot 
> be taken threatening both xh4, xBg5) now a 29...f4 could be met by 
> 30. Qe4 and if black tries to prepare f4 by..
> 
> 29...d5 30. Qd1 And if black tries to avoid the exchange.
> 
> 30... Qe4 then 31. Re1 will force black to exchange the queens anyway.
> 
> Then what remains is to investigate how this ending is with the white 
> king one tempo further away from the centre.
> 
>   
> 
> 
>

On Tue Aug 10 03:00:52, mr.e wrote:
> Speaking about computer morons!

Since this was my thread, I think this was directed to me by another 
fly by nighter, my web page has more words of reason than all other 
pages on the game and my line is much stronger than any of this 
garbage you have posted below.
   They speak for themselves, white is preparing to queen much better 
than we are:
Deal with Rd1 , not fantasy lines based on Garri playing the worst 
moves!!! Better god moves and no text(which i never do) than bad 
moves and shakesperean commentary, especially when laced with insults!


> The always reveal themself by their long lines
> without any sort of explanation of the moves or what kind of plan 
> they have. As a computer mostly need guidance to produce something of 
> value, morons with computers often ends up with producing pure crap.
>  
> Well I admit I don't know so much myself. But I'm not totally 
> wandering in the dark.
> 
> First of all some basic facts about the current positions. 
> 
> 25.Qf7 Bd4 26.Qb3 Kc7 
> 
> might not become just an innocent transposition ( 27. Be3 Bc5 ) after 
> the direct
> 
> 27. Qb1 !? (TN Chessman)
> 
> In this type of ending Kc7, , , , h7 might be necessary to stop the 
> pawn and now the king has a longer journey.
> So in fact 26... Kc7 might be a mistake.
> 
> The same reasoning goes for the line
> 
> 25. Qf7 Bd4 26. Qb3 Bc5 27. h4 .. Kc7 
> 
> supplied by the GM school
> now 28. Qf7 can hardly be white strongest move. Did Kasparov put his 
> Queen on b3 just to return to f7 without getting anything out of it? 
> I don't think so.
>  I presume that Kasparov at least has some sort of plan with his 
> moves.
> 
> 28. Qd1 , or again
> 28. Qb1 (considering Kc7 is further away from h7)
> 
> 
> However it is not easy to find good plan for black after 27. h4 as
> his b-pawn is blocked he must find his counterplay elsewhere. 
> 
> 25. Qf7 Bd4 26. Qb3 Bc5 27. h4 .. f4?!
> 
> gives white the possibility
> 
> 28. Qh3+ Kc7 29. Qg4 and if 29... Nd4 just 30. Kh2 and order to hold 
> on to the f4-pawn (as 30... Ne2 will be punished by 31. Re1) black 
> will be forced to open up his position by 30... e5 which lets go of 
> the seventh rank as well as the f6-point. Maybe there is a way to 
> hold the position. Maybe not. In this line one must also consider 29. 
> h5 with the idea 30. Qh4.
>  The other logical attacking move.
> 
> 25. Qf7 Bd4 26. Qb3 Bc5 27. h4 .. Nd4
> 
> gives white two main lines to try out.
> A) 28. Qd1 or B) 28. Qb1
> 
> A) 
>   28. Qd1
> 
> Now as Mr. Spiriev already pointed out everything get very 
> complicated.
> 
> 28... Ne2 29. Kh2 d5 30. Re1 
> 
> and now black has the tactical counterthreat
> 
> 30... Nc3
> 
> Note that after 30... Bd6 31. Kh1 Nc3 black must be prepared to take 
> the ending after 32. Rxe4 as Spiriev or his computer either missed or 
> seems to think is OK Well I don't know. Never trust a computers 
> evaluation in this position. 
> 
> 31. Qa1 Ld6+ and now
> 
> 32. Kh1!! TN 
> 
> planning a little bit further than Spirievs 32. Kg1 just with the 
> cheap trap 32...Ne2+ 33.Kf1 and the knight is lost.  Because now  - 
> after black moving his queen (c4) protecting the knight - the 
> possible threat of Qa8 with the threats Qxb7 as well as Qf8 which 
> threatens both e7 and f5 that now could be carried out without 
> suffering from a possible Ne2+ which thus guards the e7-point. If 
> white can get away with Qa8 without being punished. Then black must 
> improve this line a least from move 29.
> In the end though, it all could end up, as the all too common wrong 
> (no plan) computer-crap.
> 
> However, even though the other proposal seems more concrete there's 
> still a risk that things could get complicated.
> 
> B) 
>   28. Qb1 !? (Carrol Chessman)
> 
> The plan is to force black into an ending or taking charge of e4. If 
> 
> 28... Qg4 then first 
> 
> 29. Kh2  
> 
> move the king to avoid Nf3 (not 29. Kh1 because of Nf3 anyway, cannot 
> be taken threatening both xh4, xBg5) now a 29...f4 could be met by 
> 30. Qe4 and if black tries to prepare f4 by..
> 
> 29...d5 30. Qd1 And if black tries to avoid the exchange.
> 
> 30... Qe4 then 31. Re1 will force black to exchange the queens anyway.
> 
> Then what remains is to investigate how this ending is with the white 
> king one tempo further away from the centre.
> 
>   
> 
> 
>

On Tue Aug 10 03:04:10, Brian McCarthy still with Qe2! wrote:

The ending may not be that bad, following the standard Qc4 plan, but 
the last minute Qf5 can not be met by Qe6, however it is still 
preliminary:

26 Qb3 f4 27 Qf7 Be5 28 Rd1!? b5 29 h4 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Kd7 (or d8) 31. 
Qh7 tempo win, Kd7 32. h5 b4 33. Qf5 Qe6! 34. Qd3 is +70, but there 
seems to be no way to enforce it! however Qxe6 Kxe6 is vulnerable to 
Bxf4!!!
 +99 36...Bc3 37.Bd2 Be5 38.Kf1 Kf5 39.Ke2 Nd4+ 40.Kd3 e6 at 2 
million nodes! 

however Qe6 is not forced, but it looks shakier now, without the 
standard Qe6. 


> best viewed at the page http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html
> 
> The game so far: 
> [Site "Microsoft Gaming Zone"]
> [White "Kasparov, G."]
> [Black "The World"]
> [ECO "B52"]
> [EventDate "1999.??.??"]
> 
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. 
> O-O g6 8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Bg7 10. Nde2 Qe6 {N (Krush) The "World 
> Variation"} 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Nc7+ Kd7 13. Nxa8 Qxc4 14. Nb6+ axb6 
> 15. Nc3 Ra8 {(Speelman)} 16. a4 16... Ne4 17. Nxe4 17... Qxe4 18. Qb3 
> 18... f5 (GM School - Khalifman)} 19. Bg5 19... Qb4 {(Jason Van 
> Eaton)} 20. Qf7 Be5 {(Brian McCarthy)} 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. 
> Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7 Bd4 (above designations as given by 
> analyst US Women's champion Irina Krush: www.smartchess.com):
> Outline 8/8/99 Predicting 26. Qb3 
> Recommending: 25 Qb3 Qe2 26. Qf7 Qe4= or 26 Be3! b5! 27 Bxd4 Nxd4 
> 28. Qd5! Qd3!
> FAQ going with Qb3 f4 but not much analysis of main line Qf7 Be5 Rd1!
> Can the GM chess site save Bc5!? Kc7? It seems the world is off in 
> different directions yet again!!
> A recent question to me addressed a unanalyzed idea by WJG. His 
> original artist conception ran:
> Date:QE2 DESERVES CLOSER LOOK after 26.Qb3 WJG  win-on2-21.netcom.ca
> Mon Aug 9 18:46:43 White's best move seems to be 26.Qb3. For that 
> reason we must explore
> all viable lines. One of them IMHO is as mentioned Qe2:
> A) 26.Qb3 Qe2 27.Qd1 Qxd1 28.Rxd1 b5
> B) 26.Qb3 Qe2 27.Qf7 Qe4
> C) 26.Qb3 Qe2 27.Qb1 e6
> I ran them on my computer and preliminary evidence suggests it is 
> better, dpoes more and is less commital than Bc5 or f4. I have 
> therefore changed my recommendation to reflect that Qe2 needs to be 
> examined.
> Here was my reply to WJG: Although Zarkov pretends to have a +60 
> advantage after Qe2, he sees enough , or is not programmed correctly, 
> to like Qc2!? instead of Qe4 repeating the position! pv Qf7 Qc2 h4 b5 
> h5 b4 h6 Qc5 Qb3 +64 [Zarkov] of course black can return to Qe4 and 
> Zarkov will proclaim an edge going to b3!!Good eye, this line could 
> be our simplest defense of ALL!!!
> MAIN LINE: After having played out the pawn race in a mock game, I 
> feel more confident in Bd4 and feel that is at least very close to 
> Nd4 if not the better move. If we can get away with racing pawns it 
> makes sense to get the bishop out if the way. The luxury of the Nd4 
> line was to not get involved in exchanges and use Bc3 with tempo. 
> Here we have limited the options of our minor pieces, so hopefully we 
> have made the right choices.
> Kasparov must find a way to win if he continues h4, he can continue 
> to prod with Qb3 but it is not clear how he will follow that up, and 
> he is running out of men. If he retreats to the queenside, he can not 
> think about queening until we can be subdued on the queenside and it 
> looks like our b or d pawn will at least make it up the board a bit.
> 
> We are left with 2 winning attempts (Qb3/h4) so far: Perhaps we 
> should consider other moves here. 26 ...Bd4 Krush/Henley
> A) 26.Rd1 b5 27.Rc1 Bc5 28.Qa2 13 ply per ply -.41 =/+ Fritz 5.32 
> correspondence mode
> B) 26.Kh2 Qe5+ 27.Kg1 Nd8 28.Qb3 e6 29.Bd2 Kc8 30.Re1 15 -.28/= Fritz 
> 5.32 Quick analysis to confirm 2...Bd4 is our move
> C) 26.Rc1Bc5 27.Rd1Nd8 14 ply per ply -.22 Fritz 5.32 correspondence 
> mode
> D1) 26.Qf8 26...b5 27. Rd1 b4 28. Qf7 Bc5 RB CC Club.
> D2) 26.Qf8 Bc5 27.Rd1 Nd4 28.Kh1 Nc6 29.f3 Qe5 14/35 +.41w 5 hours 
> Comet B02
> F1) 26 h4 b5 27. h5 b4 28. h6 Qe6! 29. Qf8 Qg6! 30. Be3 Ne5! as plyed 
> in a mock game between Dignon and myself on the MSN BBS. I gave the 
> comical ending 31 Bxd4 Nf3+ Kh1 Qh5 mate!! World wins! Ickey 
> Shuffle!, but the FAQ already had this idea in the more plausible 
> form: 31 Re1 Nf3+ Kf1 (Kh1 Qh5 mate) 30 Bf4 is interesting and needs 
> work.
> F2) 26.h4 b5 27.Qb3 Jim Gawthrop 27...b4 28.Qb1 Qd5 29.Be3 Bc3 30.Rd1 
> Qf7 31.Qd3 Qh5 32.Kf1 Qxh4 33.Qxf5 e6 34.Qf8 Qc4 Depth 09/14 -0.16 
> (Black) 43 hrs CM6K
> H1) 26. Qb3 f4 (the FAQ says Bc5 is strong, but several lines and 
> ideas call this into question, the most direct being Be3!, when 
> exchanging or tying the whole army up with Nd4 is forced.) 27. Qf7 
> (Here the FAQ goes with the BBS idea of Be5 but only analyze the weak 
> alternatives f3?, Qb3? or h4. Moblizing the rook to the light sqaures 
> with Rd1 scores +65 on Zarkov: pv Rd1 b5 h4 b4 h5 Qc2 Rf1 Qe2 Qf5+ 
> Kc7 Qh3 +65 [Zarkov] f3 28. gxf3 Qe5 29. Qf4 Qxf4 30. Bxf4 b5 31. 
> Rb1 32. b4 Bd2 32. Ne5 Rb3 33. Bc5 +51 [Zarkov] 7 million nodes). I 
> am running this super critical line out now.
> H1a) 26. Qb3 f4 27. Qf7 Be5 28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qd3 
> Qc4 32. Rd1 Qxd3 33. Rxd3 e6 5/14 +0.17 35+ CC Club Logray 35+ hours 
> CM6K suggested by Krush to refute 25.Qf7
> H2a) 26 Qb3 Qe2 27. Be3! b5!? 28. Qf7!? 28. Qf7!? trades the f pawns 
> 28...Bxe3 29. Qxf5+ which leaves white with 2 connected passers and 
> all his forces on the kingside, unless we queen our b pawn, it looks 
> hopeless, the computer is happy, but these lines need testing! 28 
> 28...Bxe3 29 Qf5+ Kc7 30.fxe3 Qxe3+ 31.Kh2 Nd4 32.Qf4 Qd3 33.Rc1+ Kb6 
> 34.Qf8 Nc6 +34 2 million moves
> H2a1) 28... Bxe3 29. Qxf5+ Kc7 30. fxe3 Qxe3+ 31. Qf2 Qc3! 
> 32 h4 b4 33 h5 Ne5 34 Qh4 Kd7 35 h6 Qe3+ 36 Kh1 b3 +27 [Zarkov]
> H2a2) 32 Qe2 b4 33 Qe6 b3 34 Kh1 b2 35 h4 +13 [Zarkov] 10 million 
> nodes
> H2b)26 Qb3 Qe2 27 Be3! b5! 28.Bxd4 Nxd4 29.Qd5 ( the original line 
> was : Qe4 30.Qxe4 fxe4 31.Ra1 e6 32.Rd1 e5 33.Kf1 +44 at 10 mill 
> nodes This line wasa refuted by the hard work of DBC: 29.Qd5 
> Qe430.Qxe4 fe31.Rb1 Ke632.g4 Kf6 33.Kg2 d534.h4 e535.Rh1! b436.h5 
> Kg737.h6+! Kh838.Rh5! Nf339. g5 b340. g6 b2 41.h7!! and it's a forced 
> mate! So I was right in saying "This last line may be the 
> strongest test. but so far the race looks harmless!! Qd5 is not 
> forced and I did force the h4 line. It deserves a hearing!"
> but is it over? Actually we can sell our back B pawn to get our king 
> to safety on f7 and see about the rook and king's status: 29...Qd3!! 
> (threatens Queen) 30. Qxb7+ Ke8 31. Re1 Ne2+ 32. Kh1 Kf7 33. Ra1 Qd4 
> 34. Rf1 Qd3 35. Re1 Qd2 36. Ra1 Qd4 37. Rf1 Qd3 38. Kh2 Qc4 39. Rd1 
> Qf4+ 40. Kh1 Qxf2 41. Qxb5 Ng3+ 42. Kh2 Ne4 43. Qc4+ e6 44. Qb3 Qf4+ 
> and this looks easily drawn, assessed at under +2!!!!pv 45. Kg1 Qf2+ 
> 46. Kh1 Ng3+ 47. Kh2 Nf1+ 48. Kh1 Ng3+ +2 [Zarkov]
> 
> Is this yet another shallow computer line or really our best scoring 
> line??
> At 5 am its a little tough for me to say.
> Lets compare the big guns on the critical line of Qb3:
> The problem: 
> Computer Chess Club says: 26.Qb3 Bc5 27.h4 Nd4 28.Qd1 Ne6 29.Re1 Nxg5 
> 30.Rxe4 rb 30...Nxe4 31.Qd5 Bxf2+ 32.Kf1 e6 33. Qxb7+ Ke8 34. h5 Be3 
> 35. g4 19 +1.64 13h crafty 16.15 spiriev's line demonstrates that 
> Irina's main line has blunders... current crafty suggestions: 
> 26...Ne5 and 27...Ne5
> FAQ says: 26. Qb3 Bc5 27. h4 Nd4 (27... Kc7 {- 26...Kc7 27.h4 Bc5}) 
> 28. Qf7 (28. Qd1 Ne2+ here is hole(28... Qg4 29. Qxg4 fxg4 30. h5 
> {Spiriev}) ) 30... Nf5 {"Pluto" g4-g3} 31. h6 Bd4 32. Rd1 Bh8 
> (32... Bc3 33. Rb1 Bd4 (33... Kc6 34. Rc1) 34. Rb4 { 35.Rxd4} 34... 
> Bh8 35. Rxg4) 33. Kf1) 29. Kh2 (29. Kh1 29... f4 { f4-f3} 30. Qb3 
> Nd4 31. Qb1 Qe2 32. Bxf4 Qg4 33. Bg5 (33. Bg3 Nf5 34. Qb5+ Kd8 35. 
> Ra1 Nxg3+ 36. fxg3 36... Qxg3 ) 33... Nf5 34. Qd1 Qxd1 35. Rxd1 Bxf2 
> 36. g4 (36. Kh2 Bxh4 37. Bxh4 Nxh4 38. Kg3 38... Ng6) 36... Bxh4 37. 
> Bxh4 (37. gxf5 37... Bxg5 $17) 37... Nxh4 {Endgame under 
> investigation})
> GM Chess says: (my comments in bold) 26.Qb3 Bc5 (leaving to N d4 
> square; worse 26...Ne5 27.Rd1 f4 28.Qb1! Sorkin [28.Qa4+ Nc6] Qxb1 
> 29.Rxb1 f3 [29...Nd3 30.Rd1 Bxf2+ 31.Kf1 Nc5 32.Kxf2 Ne4+ 33.Kf3 
> Nxg5+ 34.Kxf4 and White wins] 30.g4 Nd3 31.Be3! [31.Rd1? Nxf2! 
> 32.Rxd4 Nxh3+ and 33...Nxg5 ] and g  h pawns should bring victory to 
> White) 27.h4 (27.Be3 Kc7 28.Rb1 Na5 [28...Nd4!?] 29.Qb5 Nc4 
> [29...Bxe3 30.fxe3 Qxe3+ 31.Kh1 f4 32.Qf5 Nc6 33.h4 and we cannot see 
> any arguments for Black while h pawn is moving to Q] 30.Bxc5 bxc5 
> with unclear game) Kc7 (CAN we really afford this? ) 28.Qf7 (28.h5 
> Qg4 29.Be3 Qxh5 [29...Bxe3? 30.fxe3 Qxh5 31.Rb1 and white has a 
> dangerous initiative] 30.Rb1 f4! 31.Bxc5 [31.Bxf4? Nd4 -+]Qxc5 =/+) 
> 28...d5 (Have we ever gotten away with this push?) 29.h5 (29.Rc1 Nd4 
> 30.Kh1 Ne2 31.Rd1 Nf4 32.f3 Qe5 with threat of Nf4-e2-g3+) 29...Nd4 
> with good counter play for Black, for instance: 30.h6 Nf3+! 
> (30...Ne2+ 31.Kh2! [31.Kh1 Bxf2!] Bd6+ 32.Kh1! Qd3 [32...Qe5 33.Qh5!] 
> 33.Bxe7! +-) 31.gxf3 Qxf3 and White cannot escape perpetual check; 
> 30.Kh2 Qe5+ 31.Kh1 Ne2 32.Rd1 Bd6 33.f4 [33.g3? Qe4+ 34.Kh2 Qf3 -+] 
> Nxf4 (33...Qe3 34.Qxd5 Nc3 35.Qc4+ Bc5 and the initiative of Black is 
> dangerous because of the threat of Nc3-e4-f2+ ) 34.Rc1+ Kd7 35.Qg8 
> Bc7! 36.Bxf4 Qxf4 37.Qxd5+ Bd6! and perpetual check is maximum 
> possible achievement of White in this position.
> The computer chess club is now running the GM Chess reccomendation of 
> Qb3 Bc5 h4 Kc7, although no computer likes Kc7 on its own. Ditto for 
> my recommendation of Qb3 Qe2 
> Conclusion: Kasparov has retained maximal options, but do any of them 
> win? The most critical is the Qxe6 exchange variation in the pawn 
> race. Qf7 makes a transposition to the pawn race or the Qg8 lines 
> when Garri says. Does Bd4 answer all these challenges? Qe2 seems 
> best. If a rook on the 7th is worth a pawn, what is a queen?
> 
> Here is my computer analysis so far : floowing the most likely path 
> out:
> My computer lines: 1) When left at 26. Qb3 Zarkov plays pv d5 Qa2 Bc5 
> Rd1 Nd4 Qa4+ Kc8 Kh1 b5 Qa8+ Kc7 Qa5+ Kc8 +54 [Zarkov]
> 2)When forced to play 26. Qb3 f4 (idea shut out bishop and threaten 
> f3.) 
> pv Qf7 f3 gxf3 Qe5 Bf4 Qe2 Qf5+ Kd8 Qe4 Qc4 Rc1 Qg8+ Kf1 d5 Qf5 +60
> [Zarkov] ran up to 1.9 billion nodes, but the lines were ran out, or
> past view, because it didn't change from about 500 million: [Zarkov]
> When forced into 26. Qb3 f4 Qf7 Be5 Zark likes
> pv f3 Qxf3 Qxf3 gxf3 b5 Rb1 Bc3 Kg2 Nd4 Rh1 +54 [Zarkov]5.5 mill
> pv f3 gxf3 Qe5 Qf4 Qxf4 Bxf4 b5 Rb1 b4 Bd2 Ne5 Rb3 Bc5 +51 [Zarkov] 7
> mill.
> (Computer Chess Club) 
> http://www.egroups.com/wdb?method=reportRows&listname=computergang&tbl
> =1&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&start_at=0&prntRpt=1
> Thanks to everyone on the Compter Chess Team!
> http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

After:
26.Qb3 Qe2
27.Be3 b5
28.Bxd4 Nxd4
29.Qd5 Qd3
30.Qxb7+ Ke8
31.Re1 Ne2+

Instead of 32.Kh1, white should play:
32.Kh2 Kf7
33.Qc8 Nf4
34.Qh8 and white has a clear advantage.

Cheers,
DBC

On Tue Aug 10 03:04:10, Brian McCarthy still with Qe2! wrote:
> best viewed at the page http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html
> 
> The game so far: 
> [Site "Microsoft Gaming Zone"]
> [White "Kasparov, G."]
> [Black "The World"]
> [ECO "B52"]
> [EventDate "1999.??.??"]
> 
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. 
> O-O g6 8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Bg7 10. Nde2 Qe6 {N (Krush) The "World 
> Variation"} 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Nc7+ Kd7 13. Nxa8 Qxc4 14. Nb6+ axb6 
> 15. Nc3 Ra8 {(Speelman)} 16. a4 16... Ne4 17. Nxe4 17... Qxe4 18. Qb3 
> 18... f5 (GM School - Khalifman)} 19. Bg5 19... Qb4 {(Jason Van 
> Eaton)} 20. Qf7 Be5 {(Brian McCarthy)} 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. 
> Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7 Bd4 (above designations as given by 
> analyst US Women's champion Irina Krush: www.smartchess.com):
> Outline 8/8/99 Predicting 26. Qb3 
> Recommending: 25 Qb3 Qe2 26. Qf7 Qe4= or 26 Be3! b5! 27 Bxd4 Nxd4 
> 28. Qd5! Qd3!
> FAQ going with Qb3 f4 but not much analysis of main line Qf7 Be5 Rd1!
> Can the GM chess site save Bc5!? Kc7? It seems the world is off in 
> different directions yet again!!
> A recent question to me addressed a unanalyzed idea by WJG. His 
> original artist conception ran:
> Date:QE2 DESERVES CLOSER LOOK after 26.Qb3 WJG  win-on2-21.netcom.ca
> Mon Aug 9 18:46:43 White's best move seems to be 26.Qb3. For that 
> reason we must explore
> all viable lines. One of them IMHO is as mentioned Qe2:
> A) 26.Qb3 Qe2 27.Qd1 Qxd1 28.Rxd1 b5
> B) 26.Qb3 Qe2 27.Qf7 Qe4
> C) 26.Qb3 Qe2 27.Qb1 e6
> I ran them on my computer and preliminary evidence suggests it is 
> better, dpoes more and is less commital than Bc5 or f4. I have 
> therefore changed my recommendation to reflect that Qe2 needs to be 
> examined.
> Here was my reply to WJG: Although Zarkov pretends to have a +60 
> advantage after Qe2, he sees enough , or is not programmed correctly, 
> to like Qc2!? instead of Qe4 repeating the position! pv Qf7 Qc2 h4 b5 
> h5 b4 h6 Qc5 Qb3 +64 [Zarkov] of course black can return to Qe4 and 
> Zarkov will proclaim an edge going to b3!!Good eye, this line could 
> be our simplest defense of ALL!!!
> MAIN LINE: After having played out the pawn race in a mock game, I 
> feel more confident in Bd4 and feel that is at least very close to 
> Nd4 if not the better move. If we can get away with racing pawns it 
> makes sense to get the bishop out if the way. The luxury of the Nd4 
> line was to not get involved in exchanges and use Bc3 with tempo. 
> Here we have limited the options of our minor pieces, so hopefully we 
> have made the right choices.
> Kasparov must find a way to win if he continues h4, he can continue 
> to prod with Qb3 but it is not clear how he will follow that up, and 
> he is running out of men. If he retreats to the queenside, he can not 
> think about queening until we can be subdued on the queenside and it 
> looks like our b or d pawn will at least make it up the board a bit.
> 
> We are left with 2 winning attempts (Qb3/h4) so far: Perhaps we 
> should consider other moves here. 26 ...Bd4 Krush/Henley
> A) 26.Rd1 b5 27.Rc1 Bc5 28.Qa2 13 ply per ply -.41 =/+ Fritz 5.32 
> correspondence mode
> B) 26.Kh2 Qe5+ 27.Kg1 Nd8 28.Qb3 e6 29.Bd2 Kc8 30.Re1 15 -.28/= Fritz 
> 5.32 Quick analysis to confirm 2...Bd4 is our move
> C) 26.Rc1Bc5 27.Rd1Nd8 14 ply per ply -.22 Fritz 5.32 correspondence 
> mode
> D1) 26.Qf8 26...b5 27. Rd1 b4 28. Qf7 Bc5 RB CC Club.
> D2) 26.Qf8 Bc5 27.Rd1 Nd4 28.Kh1 Nc6 29.f3 Qe5 14/35 +.41w 5 hours 
> Comet B02
> F1) 26 h4 b5 27. h5 b4 28. h6 Qe6! 29. Qf8 Qg6! 30. Be3 Ne5! as plyed 
> in a mock game between Dignon and myself on the MSN BBS. I gave the 
> comical ending 31 Bxd4 Nf3+ Kh1 Qh5 mate!! World wins! Ickey 
> Shuffle!, but the FAQ already had this idea in the more plausible 
> form: 31 Re1 Nf3+ Kf1 (Kh1 Qh5 mate) 30 Bf4 is interesting and needs 
> work.
> F2) 26.h4 b5 27.Qb3 Jim Gawthrop 27...b4 28.Qb1 Qd5 29.Be3 Bc3 30.Rd1 
> Qf7 31.Qd3 Qh5 32.Kf1 Qxh4 33.Qxf5 e6 34.Qf8 Qc4 Depth 09/14 -0.16 
> (Black) 43 hrs CM6K
> H1) 26. Qb3 f4 (the FAQ says Bc5 is strong, but several lines and 
> ideas call this into question, the most direct being Be3!, when 
> exchanging or tying the whole army up with Nd4 is forced.) 27. Qf7 
> (Here the FAQ goes with the BBS idea of Be5 but only analyze the weak 
> alternatives f3?, Qb3? or h4. Moblizing the rook to the light sqaures 
> with Rd1 scores +65 on Zarkov: pv Rd1 b5 h4 b4 h5 Qc2 Rf1 Qe2 Qf5+ 
> Kc7 Qh3 +65 [Zarkov] f3 28. gxf3 Qe5 29. Qf4 Qxf4 30. Bxf4 b5 31. 
> Rb1 32. b4 Bd2 32. Ne5 Rb3 33. Bc5 +51 [Zarkov] 7 million nodes). I 
> am running this super critical line out now.
> H1a) 26. Qb3 f4 27. Qf7 Be5 28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qd3 
> Qc4 32. Rd1 Qxd3 33. Rxd3 e6 5/14 +0.17 35+ CC Club Logray 35+ hours 
> CM6K suggested by Krush to refute 25.Qf7
> H2a) 26 Qb3 Qe2 27. Be3! b5!? 28. Qf7!? 28. Qf7!? trades the f pawns 
> 28...Bxe3 29. Qxf5+ which leaves white with 2 connected passers and 
> all his forces on the kingside, unless we queen our b pawn, it looks 
> hopeless, the computer is happy, but these lines need testing! 28 
> 28...Bxe3 29 Qf5+ Kc7 30.fxe3 Qxe3+ 31.Kh2 Nd4 32.Qf4 Qd3 33.Rc1+ Kb6 
> 34.Qf8 Nc6 +34 2 million moves
> H2a1) 28... Bxe3 29. Qxf5+ Kc7 30. fxe3 Qxe3+ 31. Qf2 Qc3! 
> 32 h4 b4 33 h5 Ne5 34 Qh4 Kd7 35 h6 Qe3+ 36 Kh1 b3 +27 [Zarkov]
> H2a2) 32 Qe2 b4 33 Qe6 b3 34 Kh1 b2 35 h4 +13 [Zarkov] 10 million 
> nodes
> H2b)26 Qb3 Qe2 27 Be3! b5! 28.Bxd4 Nxd4 29.Qd5 ( the original line 
> was : Qe4 30.Qxe4 fxe4 31.Ra1 e6 32.Rd1 e5 33.Kf1 +44 at 10 mill 
> nodes This line wasa refuted by the hard work of DBC: 29.Qd5 
> Qe430.Qxe4 fe31.Rb1 Ke632.g4 Kf6 33.Kg2 d534.h4 e535.Rh1! b436.h5 
> Kg737.h6+! Kh838.Rh5! Nf339. g5 b340. g6 b2 41.h7!! and it's a forced 
> mate! So I was right in saying "This last line may be the 
> strongest test. but so far the race looks harmless!! Qd5 is not 
> forced and I did force the h4 line. It deserves a hearing!"
> but is it over? Actually we can sell our back B pawn to get our king 
> to safety on f7 and see about the rook and king's status: 29...Qd3!! 
> (threatens Queen) 30. Qxb7+ Ke8 31. Re1 Ne2+ 32. Kh1 Kf7 33. Ra1 Qd4 
> 34. Rf1 Qd3 35. Re1 Qd2 36. Ra1 Qd4 37. Rf1 Qd3 38. Kh2 Qc4 39. Rd1 
> Qf4+ 40. Kh1 Qxf2 41. Qxb5 Ng3+ 42. Kh2 Ne4 43. Qc4+ e6 44. Qb3 Qf4+ 
> and this looks easily drawn, assessed at under +2!!!!pv 45. Kg1 Qf2+ 
> 46. Kh1 Ng3+ 47. Kh2 Nf1+ 48. Kh1 Ng3+ +2 [Zarkov]
> 
> Is this yet another shallow computer line or really our best scoring 
> line??
> At 5 am its a little tough for me to say.
> Lets compare the big guns on the critical line of Qb3:
> The problem: 
> Computer Chess Club says: 26.Qb3 Bc5 27.h4 Nd4 28.Qd1 Ne6 29.Re1 Nxg5 
> 30.Rxe4 rb 30...Nxe4 31.Qd5 Bxf2+ 32.Kf1 e6 33. Qxb7+ Ke8 34. h5 Be3 
> 35. g4 19 +1.64 13h crafty 16.15 spiriev's line demonstrates that 
> Irina's main line has blunders... current crafty suggestions: 
> 26...Ne5 and 27...Ne5
> FAQ says: 26. Qb3 Bc5 27. h4 Nd4 (27... Kc7 {- 26...Kc7 27.h4 Bc5}) 
> 28. Qf7 (28. Qd1 Ne2+ here is hole(28... Qg4 29. Qxg4 fxg4 30. h5 
> {Spiriev}) ) 30... Nf5 {"Pluto" g4-g3} 31. h6 Bd4 32. Rd1 Bh8 
> (32... Bc3 33. Rb1 Bd4 (33... Kc6 34. Rc1) 34. Rb4 { 35.Rxd4} 34... 
> Bh8 35. Rxg4) 33. Kf1) 29. Kh2 (29. Kh1 29... f4 { f4-f3} 30. Qb3 
> Nd4 31. Qb1 Qe2 32. Bxf4 Qg4 33. Bg5 (33. Bg3 Nf5 34. Qb5+ Kd8 35. 
> Ra1 Nxg3+ 36. fxg3 36... Qxg3 ) 33... Nf5 34. Qd1 Qxd1 35. Rxd1 Bxf2 
> 36. g4 (36. Kh2 Bxh4 37. Bxh4 Nxh4 38. Kg3 38... Ng6) 36... Bxh4 37. 
> Bxh4 (37. gxf5 37... Bxg5 $17) 37... Nxh4 {Endgame under 
> investigation})
> GM Chess says: (my comments in bold) 26.Qb3 Bc5 (leaving to N d4 
> square; worse 26...Ne5 27.Rd1 f4 28.Qb1! Sorkin [28.Qa4+ Nc6] Qxb1 
> 29.Rxb1 f3 [29...Nd3 30.Rd1 Bxf2+ 31.Kf1 Nc5 32.Kxf2 Ne4+ 33.Kf3 
> Nxg5+ 34.Kxf4 and White wins] 30.g4 Nd3 31.Be3! [31.Rd1? Nxf2! 
> 32.Rxd4 Nxh3+ and 33...Nxg5 ] and g  h pawns should bring victory to 
> White) 27.h4 (27.Be3 Kc7 28.Rb1 Na5 [28...Nd4!?] 29.Qb5 Nc4 
> [29...Bxe3 30.fxe3 Qxe3+ 31.Kh1 f4 32.Qf5 Nc6 33.h4 and we cannot see 
> any arguments for Black while h pawn is moving to Q] 30.Bxc5 bxc5 
> with unclear game) Kc7 (CAN we really afford this? ) 28.Qf7 (28.h5 
> Qg4 29.Be3 Qxh5 [29...Bxe3? 30.fxe3 Qxh5 31.Rb1 and white has a 
> dangerous initiative] 30.Rb1 f4! 31.Bxc5 [31.Bxf4? Nd4 -+]Qxc5 =/+) 
> 28...d5 (Have we ever gotten away with this push?) 29.h5 (29.Rc1 Nd4 
> 30.Kh1 Ne2 31.Rd1 Nf4 32.f3 Qe5 with threat of Nf4-e2-g3+) 29...Nd4 
> with good counter play for Black, for instance: 30.h6 Nf3+! 
> (30...Ne2+ 31.Kh2! [31.Kh1 Bxf2!] Bd6+ 32.Kh1! Qd3 [32...Qe5 33.Qh5!] 
> 33.Bxe7! +-) 31.gxf3 Qxf3 and White cannot escape perpetual check; 
> 30.Kh2 Qe5+ 31.Kh1 Ne2 32.Rd1 Bd6 33.f4 [33.g3? Qe4+ 34.Kh2 Qf3 -+] 
> Nxf4 (33...Qe3 34.Qxd5 Nc3 35.Qc4+ Bc5 and the initiative of Black is 
> dangerous because of the threat of Nc3-e4-f2+ ) 34.Rc1+ Kd7 35.Qg8 
> Bc7! 36.Bxf4 Qxf4 37.Qxd5+ Bd6! and perpetual check is maximum 
> possible achievement of White in this position.
> The computer chess club is now running the GM Chess reccomendation of 
> Qb3 Bc5 h4 Kc7, although no computer likes Kc7 on its own. Ditto for 
> my recommendation of Qb3 Qe2 
> Conclusion: Kasparov has retained maximal options, but do any of them 
> win? The most critical is the Qxe6 exchange variation in the pawn 
> race. Qf7 makes a transposition to the pawn race or the Qg8 lines 
> when Garri says. Does Bd4 answer all these challenges? Qe2 seems 
> best. If a rook on the 7th is worth a pawn, what is a queen?
> 
> Here is my computer analysis so far : floowing the most likely path 
> out:
> My computer lines: 1) When left at 26. Qb3 Zarkov plays pv d5 Qa2 Bc5 
> Rd1 Nd4 Qa4+ Kc8 Kh1 b5 Qa8+ Kc7 Qa5+ Kc8 +54 [Zarkov]
> 2)When forced to play 26. Qb3 f4 (idea shut out bishop and threaten 
> f3.) 
> pv Qf7 f3 gxf3 Qe5 Bf4 Qe2 Qf5+ Kd8 Qe4 Qc4 Rc1 Qg8+ Kf1 d5 Qf5 +60
> [Zarkov] ran up to 1.9 billion nodes, but the lines were ran out, or
> past view, because it didn't change from about 500 million: [Zarkov]
> When forced into 26. Qb3 f4 Qf7 Be5 Zark likes
> pv f3 Qxf3 Qxf3 gxf3 b5 Rb1 Bc3 Kg2 Nd4 Rh1 +54 [Zarkov]5.5 mill
> pv f3 gxf3 Qe5 Qf4 Qxf4 Bxf4 b5 Rb1 b4 Bd2 Ne5 Rb3 Bc5 +51 [Zarkov] 7
> mill.
> (Computer Chess Club) 
> http://www.egroups.com/wdb?method=reportRows&listname=computergang&tbl
> =1&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&start_at=0&prntRpt=1
> Thanks to everyone on the Compter Chess Team!
> http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

Again world choose, I would say, non-Master move, following Merry 
Krush like her sheep.
Did anyone read Irina's latest FAQ?
Doesn’t anyone pay attention to that fact that she doesn't analyze 
any moves, except one that seems obvious? And she talks about 
complicated position, and GK's possible tactics without discussing 
her own strategy to prepare the basis for future resign,instead 
providing a clear strategy goals for blacks, like prevent whites from 
attack on queens wing with B,Q and R and promoting the passing pawn b 
and developing the best tactic ways to achieve them.
And the world votes for her with eyes closed, hoping for lack or GK's 
mistake.
Poor ship, she'll finish on GK's plate...

If Kasparov starts to push his h-pawn, this could 
happen:
26. h4 b5 27. h5 Qe6! 28. Qf8 b4 29. h6 Qg6 30. Qa8 Kc7
31. Bd2 b3 32. Rb1 b2 33. Qa2 f4! 34. Bf4 Qc2 35. Be3 Nb4! 36. Qa5 
Kc6 37. Bd4 Qc1 38. Rc1 bcQ -+

Just a fantasy line to proof that black might even get
some winning chances :)

Jan

On Tue Aug 10 03:54:17, BlauDanau wrote:
> Somebody suggested this idea in a different context several days ago, 
> but in the line where after ...f4 the White queen returns to f7, 
> might he tried to trade bishops with the maneuver Bg5-h6-g7.  Just a 
> human-generated thought (Sweeney would be proud), and I know there 
> are lots of other factors at play.  The point is that ...f4 may NOT 
> prevent the bishop trade we are dreading.

Regardless of all other considerations, exchange values, pawn 
configurations etc, if Garry can find a way to get this pawn to 
h8.....a lot of conventional values go out the window...we must be on 
our guard

26. Qb3 f4 27 Qf7! Fixing the weakness, 27...f4 as Faq, they have f3 
worked out to over a pawn. 
28 Rd1!! by far the best move, there is no time for Qc2 due to re1 
then Rb1 if harassed again +110.

28...b5 forced 
29. h4 here we go (29...Qc4) the usual response fails, by current 
data.  
29...b4 
again 29...Qc2 seesm too slow, as too many vital sqaures are left 
behind:  (29...Qc2 30. Re1 Qd2 31. Qf5+ Kc7 32. Rb1 b4 33. h5 Bd4 34. 
Qxf4 Bxf2+ 35. Kh2 Qe2 36. Qf7 Qd3 37. Rb3 Qd1 38. Bf4 Qg1+ 39. Kh3 
Qh1+ 40. Bh2 Bd4 41. Rf3 Be5 42. g3 Bc3 43. Rf1 Qe4 44. h6 Qe3 45. h7 
Qh6+ 46. Kg2 Bg7 47. Qg8 Ne5 48. Rf8 Qd2+ 49. Rf2 Qh6 50. Rc2+ Nc6 
51. Rc4 Qd2+ 52. Kh3 and : pv Qb2 Bg1 Bh8 Qe6 Qe5 Qxe5 Bxe5 +81 
[Zarkov] 

There may be many chances to improve here, but the moves come alot 
easier for white than black!!!

30. h5 and now I will let the computer run on the world's last chance 
to play Qc2. If there is a piece sac or Qf5 trick, then I will be 
ready to say Qb3 f4 loses. But this is still preliminary, so no 
panick yet. 
But check these lines out vs other computers, I must sleep!!

So far I see absolutely no way out at least till 30. 
Original Zarkov Death Line:
pv 26 Qb3 f4 27 Qf7! Be5 28 Rd1 b5 29 h4 b4 30 h5 Qc2 31 Rf1 Qe2 32 
Qf5+ Kc7 33 Qh3 +65 [Zarkov]

25 Qf7 Bd4 26 h4 Nb4 27 Be3 Nd3?! 28 B:d4 Nf4!!
29 f3 (forced) Q:d4+ 30 Kh1 Qe5.

I think white is better(31 Rb1?!) but not sure any ideas??

Hi World team!

There is a fun Kasparov quiz at

http://www.gtryfon.demon.co.uk/bcc/problems/contest.htm

which is unique in that you can test your knowledge of Kasparov in 
the context of other quiz participants.

Best wishes,

Tryfon

Seriously, what counts is depth and quality of analysis.  All these 
whiners who want to argue about who was the first to suggest a 
particular move (without any discussion of whether they had correct 
and/or useful analysis or just mentioned the move first) completely 
miss the point.

On Tue Aug 10 04:13:55, Brian McCarthy Does f4 
lose-#62;-#62;-#62;Qc2/Qc4  - wrote:
> 
> 26. Qb3 f4 27 Qf7! Fixing the weakness, 27...f4 as Faq, they have f3 
> worked out to over a pawn. 
> 28 Rd1!! by far the best move, there is no time for Qc2 due to re1 
> then Rb1 if harassed again +110.
> 
> 28...b5 forced 
> 29. h4 here we go (29...Qc4) the usual response fails, by current 
> data.  
> 29...b4 
> again 29...Qc2 seesm too slow, as too many vital sqaures are left 
> behind:  (29...Qc2 30. Re1 Qd2 31. Qf5+ Kc7 32. Rb1 b4 33. h5 Bd4 34. 
> Qxf4 Bxf2+ 35. Kh2 Qe2 36. Qf7 Qd3 37. Rb3 Qd1 38. Bf4 Qg1+ 39. Kh3 
> Qh1+ 40. Bh2 Bd4 41. Rf3 Be5 42. g3 Bc3 43. Rf1 Qe4 44. h6 Qe3 45. h7 
> Qh6+ 46. Kg2 Bg7 47. Qg8 Ne5 48. Rf8 Qd2+ 49. Rf2 Qh6 50. Rc2+ Nc6 
> 51. Rc4 Qd2+ 52. Kh3 and : pv Qb2 Bg1 Bh8 Qe6 Qe5 Qxe5 Bxe5 +81 
> [Zarkov] 
> 
> There may be many chances to improve here, but the moves come alot 
> easier for white than black!!!
> 
> 30. h5 and now I will let the computer run on the world's last chance 
> to play Qc2. If there is a piece sac or Qf5 trick, then I will be 
> ready to say Qb3 f4 loses. But this is still preliminary, so no 
> panick yet. 
> But check these lines out vs other computers, I must sleep!!
> 
> So far I see absolutely no way out at least till 30. 
> Original Zarkov Death Line:
> pv 26 Qb3 f4 27 Qf7! Be5 28 Rd1 b5 29 h4 b4 30 h5 Qc2 31 Rf1 Qe2 32 
> Qf5+ Kc7 33 Qh3 +65 [Zarkov]  
nt

On Tue Aug 10 04:13:55, Brian McCarthy Does f4 
lose-#62;-#62;-#62;Qc2/Qc4  - wrote:
> 
> 26. Qb3 f4 27 Qf7! Fixing the weakness, 27...f4 as Faq, they have f3 
> worked out to over a pawn. 
>

What about stopping Qf7 ... as in

26. Qb3 e6, and then 27. ... f4? Naturally white has a move 27 in the 
meantime that may kill, but what?

After 
26. Qb3  f4
27. Qf7  Be5
28. Rd1  b5
29. h4   b4
30. h5   Qc2
31. Rf1  ...  Here you give Qe2, but isn't
31. ...  b3   a much better move.  Since black's queen is covering 
the queening square, white will be forced to defend it with 2 pieces. 
 Obviously the Bishoph on g5 is useless for this task.  White can get 
it a check on f5, but it doesn't lead to much.  I think he will 
eventually have to put the queen on g6 to exchange, at which point 
black's knight makes an entrance to help the pawn.

What's the present status of analysis supposing next move to be Qb3 
with Qe2 following?

Here is one line where Black lives!

 25. Q-f7   B-d4 
 26. Q-b3   f4
 27. Q-f7   B-e5   
 28. R-d1   b5
 29. h4     b4
 30. h5     Q-c2  Brian wanted to look here.
 31. R-e1   b3
 32. Q-g6   Qxg6
 33. hxg6   e6
 34. R-b1   b2 
 35. Bxf4   Bxf4
 36. Rxb2   K-c7
 37. g7     N-e7
 38. R-b3   B-e5
 39. R-f3   K-c6   
 40. R-f7   N-g8
 41. R-f8   N-h6
 42. g8=Q   Nxg8   
 43. Rxg8   b5

As with all of my lines, further examination should be undertaken.

Ceri

On Tue Aug 10 05:09:58, Wolô wrote:
> What's the present status of analysis supposing next move to be Qb3 
> with Qe2 following?

We have to give a pawn to keep intiaitive, it seems like an easy 
draw, but needs verification:

H2a) 26 Qb3 Qe2 27. Be3! b5!? 28. Qf7!? 28. Qf7!? trades the f pawns 
28...Bxe3 29. Qxf5+ which leaves white with 2 connected passers and 
all his forces on the kingside, unless we queen our b pawn, it looks 
hopeless, the computer is happy, but these lines need testing! 28 
28...Bxe3 29 Qf5+ Kc7 30.fxe3 Qxe3+ 31.Kh2 Nd4 32.Qf4 Qd3 33.Rc1+ Kb6 
34.Qf8 Nc6 +34 2 million moves 

H2a1) 28... Bxe3 29. Qxf5+ Kc7 30. fxe3 Qxe3+ 31. Qf2 Qc3! 

32 h4 b4 33 h5 Ne5 34 Qh4 Kd7  35 h6 Qe3+ 36 Kh1 b3 +27 [Zarkov] 

H2a2) 32 Qe2 b4 33 Qe6 b3 34 Kh1 b2 35 h4 +13 [Zarkov] 10 million 
nodes 

H2b)26 Qb3 Qe2 27 Be3! b5! 28.Bxd4 Nxd4 29.Qd5 ( the original line 
was : Qe4 30.Qxe4 fxe4 31.Ra1 e6 32.Rd1 e5 33.Kf1 +44 at 10 mill 
nodes This line wasa refuted by the hard work of  DBC: 29.Qd5 
Qe430.Qxe4 fe31.Rb1 Ke632.g4 Kf6 33.Kg2 d534.h4 e535.Rh1! b436.h5 
Kg737.h6+! Kh838.Rh5! Nf339. g5 b340. g6 b2 41.h7!! and it's a forced 
mate! So I was right in saying "This last line may be the 
strongest test. but so far the race looks harmless!! Qd5 is not 
forced and I did force the h4 line. It deserves a hearing!" 

but is it over? Actually we can sell our back B pawn to get our king 
to safety on f7 and see about the rook and king's status: 29...Qd3!! 
(threatens Queen)  30. Qxb7+ Ke8 31. Re1 Ne2+ 32. Kh1 Kf7 33. Ra1 Qd4 
34. Rf1 Qd3 35. Re1 Qd2 36. Ra1 Qd4 37. Rf1 Qd3 38. Kh2 Qc4 39. Rd1 
Qf4+ 40. Kh1 Qxf2 41. Qxb5 Ng3+ 42. Kh2 Ne4 43. Qc4+ e6 44. Qb3 Qf4+ 
and this looks easily drawn, assessed at under +2!!!!pv 45. Kg1 Qf2+ 
46. Kh1 Ng3+ 47. Kh2 Nf1+ 48. Kh1 Ng3+ +2 [Zarkov] 


Is this yet another shallow computer line or really our best scoring 
line??

Some people are then worried about Be3

On Tue Aug 10 05:08:36, KerryR wrote:
> After 
> 26. Qb3  f4
> 27. Qf7  Be5
> 28. Rd1  b5
> 29. h4   b4
> 30. h5 

This seems to be the key point, I have no idea why Qc2 was chosen in 
the long run over Qe2, with Nd4/Qg4 ideas seems to hold. this is 15 
millin nodes, 31.Rb1 Qg4 32.Bh6 Nd4 33.Qd5 Qxh5 34.Rxb4 Qd1+ 35.Kh2 
Qh5+ 36.Kg1 +2, but if i let it run it goes to Qc2 +60??

Any clues? the position seems safe enough!


  Qc2

The idea against a premature pawn run is Qb5-b5 then h run! 


> 31. Rf1  ...  Here you give Qe2, but isn't
> 31. ...  b3   a much better move.  Since black's queen is covering 
> the queening square, white will be forced to defend it with 2 pieces. 
>  Obviously the Bishoph on g5 is useless for this task.  White can get 
> it a check on f5, but it doesn't lead to much.  I think he will 
> eventually have to put the queen on g6 to exchange, at which point 
> black's knight makes an entrance to help the pawn.
>

26.Qb3    f4
27.Qf7    Be5
28.Rc1??  b5
29.h4     b4
30.h5     f3
31.gxf3   Qd3
32.Kg2    b3
33.Qg6    Qxg6
34.hxg6   b2
35.Rb1        and Black is ok, if not winning!

Ceri

On Tue Aug 10 04:09:36, Oh_Smeg wrote:
> On Tue Aug 10 03:54:17, BlauDanau wrote:
> > Somebody suggested this idea in a different context several days ago, 
> > but in the line where after ...f4 the White queen returns to f7, 
> > might he tried to trade bishops with the maneuver Bg5-h6-g7.  Just a 
> > human-generated thought (Sweeney would be proud), and I know there 
> > are lots of other factors at play.  The point is that ...f4 may NOT 
> > prevent the bishop trade we are dreading.
> 
> Regardless of all other considerations, exchange values, pawn 
> configurations etc, if Garry can find a way to get this pawn to 
> h8.....a lot of conventional values go out the window...we must be on 
> our guard
Yes....so we better get our b pawn rolling as well!!! Bruce:-)

On Tue Aug 10 04:57:08, 


if you mean Yasha, then he did a ton of work to get ..f4 out to the 
attention of us. Just because some are louder, does that mean they 
should steal credit??

What do u call intentionally claiming a move as yours when you have 
been fighting for 2 days that it was horrible and all moves lost? 

Fair is Fair and has to be in the best interest of the team, rather 
than mollifying the loudest mouths!

Perhaps this is not the proper forum to post this message, but I 
thought it would be a good place to get some responses.  I am the 
faculty advisor for the chess club at a small business college.  We 
have a very small and very inexperienced club.  I would like to find 
other post-secondary schools that would be interested in an online 
interscholastic chess match.  Please send any responses to Dave at 
drem60@hotmail.com

Thanks!!

The question was asked why some people worry about 27.Be3 in response 
to 26.....Qe2.

Here, for example is a line with good cause....

 26. Q-b3   Q-e2
 27. B-e3   b5   
 28. Bxd4   Nxd4
 29. Q-d5   Q-e4
 30. Qxe4   fxe4   
 31. h4     K-e6
 32. R-b1   K-f5
 33. R-b4   e5   
 34. g3     d5
 35. K-g2   K-g4
 36. R-b1   K-h5   
 37. K-h3   K-h6
 38. K-g4   b6
 39. h5     K-h7   
 40. K-g5   K-g7
 41. h6+    K-h7
 42. g4     N-f3+  
 43. K-f6   

 Ceri

Its looking more and more like at least a toss up between f4 and Qe2, 
maybe GM chess has more in defense of its Kc7 idea, but its doubtful.
This was out of context below, so lets bring it up with the 
morningnews on Qe2: 

Re: Qe2 main line ; not so fast +59 but perp!
Brian McCarthy question out of thread, Qb3 Qe 
spider-tq061.proxy.aol.com
Tue Aug 10 05:41:53 

On Tue Aug 10 03:47:01, DBC wrote:
> After:
> 26.Qb3 Qe2
> 27.Be3 b5
> 28.Bxd4 Nxd4
> 29.Qd5 Qd3
> 30.Qxb7+ Ke8
> 31.Re1 Ne2+
> 
> Instead of 32.Kh1, white should play:
Agreed, but that does not get a breakthrough, you have almost 
convinced me, but so far, my computer still likes a perpetual over 
shoving h pawn as white!





> 32.Kh2 Kf7
> 33.Qc8 



but not so fast with the retreat, bad play for black: just e6 to 
preserve all pawns and renew Qd2 = threats. Kh1 seems temporary: 
 33... e6 and 34 Qd7 Kf6 35. Qh7  (any better?) 
and the dreaded Qd2!
and +59 36.Qh8+ Kg6 37.Qg8+ Kf6 38.Qf8+ Kg6 39.Ra1 Qf4+ 40.Kh1 Nd4 
41.Qg8+ Kf6 
 <    33...Nf4

> 34.Qh8 and white has a clear advantage.
> 
> Cheers,
> DBC

Hi world,

Here are some improvements on the FAQ.

A2d31)
26 h4    b5
27 h5    b4
28 h6    Qe6
29 Qxe6+ Kxe6
30 Rb1   Bc3
31 Bc1   Kf7
32 Bb2   d5!  Much better - Black is better here!

B2c12)
Rd1 is listed, but no analysis is given.
        d5  looks very comfortable for Black, though.

B2c31)   ASTONISHING OVERSIGHT!
Qb3   Bc5
Qb1   Qxb1
Rxb1  d5
Rd1   Kd6
h4    b5
h5    Bd4?????
Rxd4! Nxd4
h6    1-0

B6c2222)
32 Bb2  d5!   improvement for Black

b5c23)
34      d5!   improvement for Black

Cheers, .....Nick Pelling.....

i click on the pic and i get a offer for a visa card 
so if i understand i need to buy a visa e.card(?) to get my free 
t-shirt yea free 

i posted it here because it's a kind of strategy...Marketing strategy

Hi,

As White's main line is 27.Qf7, and we believe that 27...Be5 is OK 
for Black, we have the option of looking for deeper ideas for Black.

Tonight, I am immersing myself in the pawn sacrifice 27.Qf7 f3 - 
using some analysis that Peter Spiriev has sent me from Budapest, and 
some new ideas I found with GM Ron Henley.

The main line of Spiriev's analysis begins 27.Qf7 f3 28.gxf3 Qe5 
29.f4 Qe4 30.Qh5 Bc5 31.Qg4+ Kc7 32.f5 Qd5 - I promised Peter Spiriev 
I would not publish his analysis here until I have finished with my 
own analysis.

Irina

On Wed Aug 11 19:19:45, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As White's main line is 27.Qf7, and we believe that 27...Be5 is OK 
> for Black, we have the option of looking for deeper ideas for Black.
> 
> Tonight, I am immersing myself in the pawn sacrifice 27.Qf7 f3 - 
> using some analysis that Peter Spiriev has sent me from Budapest, and 
> some new ideas I found with GM Ron Henley.
> 
> The main line of Spiriev's analysis begins 27.Qf7 f3 28.gxf3 Qe5 
> 29.f4 Qe4 30.Qh5 Bc5 31.Qg4+ Kc7 32.f5 Qd5 - I promised Peter Spiriev 
> I would not publish his analysis here until I have finished with my 
> own analysis.
> 
> Irina
> 

Why would GK play 29. f4 instead of h4?

On Wed Aug 11 19:29:12, W wrote:
> On Wed Aug 11 19:19:45, Irina Krush wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > As White's main line is 27.Qf7, and we believe that 27...Be5 is OK 
> > for Black, we have the option of looking for deeper ideas for Black.
> > 
> > Tonight, I am immersing myself in the pawn sacrifice 27.Qf7 f3 - 
> > using some analysis that Peter Spiriev has sent me from Budapest, and 
> > some new ideas I found with GM Ron Henley.
> > 
> > The main line of Spiriev's analysis begins 27.Qf7 f3 28.gxf3 Qe5 
> > 29.f4 Qe4 30.Qh5 Bc5 31.Qg4+ Kc7 32.f5 Qd5 - I promised Peter Spiriev 
> > I would not publish his analysis here until I have finished with my 
> > own analysis.
> > 
> > Irina
> > 
> 
> Why would GK play 29. f4 instead of h4? 

yes, and even 29. Bf4 favors white (I think).

sorry, forgot a few things that aren't in the FAQ...

after >20 hours:

after 28. Qf8, ...f3 is recommended (+0.47 for White)

after 28. Rc1, ... b5 is recommended because of:

after 28. Rc1 d5, 29. Rd1 (+0.53 for White)

in the fun line 28. f3 Qe3+ 29. Kh1 b5 30. Qf5+ Kc7
31. Qe4 b4 32. Qxe3 fxe3 33. Bxe3 b3, 34. Bd2
is recommended, with a king march over to c2,
+0.67 for White.

Hello,

Duncan Settles found the following line

28 Qf8     b5
29 Qa8     Kc7
30 Qe8     f3 !?
31 Rc1     Bh2+  32 KxB     Qe5+
33 g3      QxB
34 Rc3     Qf6  Seems quite unclear

I continued the line with
(btw 31. ... Bf4? 32. gxf3! )


35. Rb3

 35. ... Qf5 (35. ... Nd4? 36. Ra3!)
 36. h4 b4
 37. Qg8 b6
 38. Qg5 Qc2
 39. Qe3 Qc4
 40. Rb2 Qf7
 41. Qf4 (after that I think black must exchange queens which gives a 
clear advantage for white in the endgame)

Can you find improvements for black ?

Cheers Ulf

P.S.: Forget my remark to 28. f3 . You are right it is worth to 
consider the line:
28. Qf8 and 28. h4 are not the only possibilities for Kasparov but I 
believe it will be 28. h4 or 28. Qf8

Hi World team!

In the simple variation where both sides push their passed pawns, 
ie:- 

28 h4 b5 
29 h5 Here Qc4 is currently the "main line" but b4 is 
interesting, for example:-

30 h6 Qc2
31 Bxf4 Nd8 

[31...Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qh7 33.Qg4+ Ke8 34.Qc8+ Nd8 35.Ra1 Qe4 36.g3 Qd4 
37.Rc1 with the threat of Rc7 37...Qd3 38.Qg4 Qh7 39.Qg7 Qxg7 40.hxg7 
Kf7 41.Rc8 winning material] 

32.Qh5 losing a whole bishop but the passed pawn is strong, and 
regains material 

32...Bxf4 33.h7 Be5 34.Qxe5 A logical tactic 

34...dxe5 (Computer chess team)

[34...Qxh7 35.Qb5+ Ke6 36.Qxb4 and white is winning] 

35.h8Q Black has two pawns for the exchange and both sets of pawns 
are doubled ! But it is not so clear !!
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

Examples:-
-----------

35...Nc6 36.Qh3+ Kd6 37.Qe3 Nd4 

Is black's position so bad?

38.Re1 Qf5 This is an interesting position! 

39.Rd1 Kc7 40.Qd2 Qg4 defending the b pawn tactically (Qxb4 Nf3+ 
winning the queen) 

41.Rc1+ Kb8 What is White's plan here? The black knight seems very 
strong! 


Any comments on this team?

Tryfon

28.h4 b5 29.h5 Qc4 30.Qf8 b4 31.Qf5+ e6 32.Qf7+ Kc8 33.Bf6 b3 34.h6 
b2 35.Qg8+ Kc7 36.Qh7+ Kb8 37.Bxe5 Nxe5 

38.Rd1 Qe2 39.Rb1 Nd3
38.Qb1 f3 
  38...Qc3 39.Rd1 (39.h7 Nf3+) d5 40.h7 Nf7 41.Qg6 Qc1 
  42.Qd3 f3 43.gxf3 Qg5+ 44.Kf1 Qh6 and now both 45.f4 
  and 45.Rb1 Ng5 are unclear (still edge to White?)
39.h7 Qh4 40.g3 (40.Qd1 d5) Qh3 41.h8=Q Qxh8 42.Qd1 Nc4

- Monarkh
http://www.stormloader.com/monarkh/KvW.html

On Sat Aug 14 05:32:28, Ulf wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Duncan Settles found the following line
> 
> 28 Qf8     b5
> 29 Qa8     Kc7
> 30 Qe8     f3 !?
> 31 Rc1     Bh2+  32 KxB     Qe5+
> 33 g3      QxB
> 34 Rc3     Qf6  Seems quite unclear
> 
> I continued the line with
> (btw 31. ... Bf4? 32. gxf3! )
> 
> 
> 35. Rb3
> 
>  35. ... Qf5 (35. ... Nd4? 36. Ra3!)
>  36. h4 b4
>  37. Qg8 b6
>  38. Qg5 Qc2
>  39. Qe3 Qc4
>  40. Rb2 Qf7
>  41. Qf4 (after that I think black must exchange queens which gives a 
> clear advantage for white in the endgame)
> 
> Can you find improvements for black ?
> 
> Cheers Ulf
> 
> P.S.: Forget my remark to 28. f3 . You are right it is worth to 
> consider the line:
> 28. Qf8 and 28. h4 are not the only possibilities for Kasparov but I 
> believe it will be 28. h4 or 28. Qf8

I've not seen any of this 28. Qf8 line before - would you mind teling 
me why 28...b5 is preferred to 28...d5? Sorry if this is covered 
somewhere.

On Sat Aug 14 05:36:20, Tryfon wrote:
> Hi World team!
> 
> In the simple variation where both sides push their passed pawns, 
> ie:- 
> 
> 28 h4 b5 
> 29 h5 Here Qc4 is currently the "main line" but b4 is 
> interesting, for example:-
> 
> 30 h6 Qc2
> 31 Bxf4 Nd8 

I should point out that either 30...Qc2 or 30...Qd3
is possible.  I'm not sure which is better.

(28.h4 b5 29.h5 Qc4 30.Qf8 b4 31.h6 b3 32.Qf5+ e6)
 
I think there is some confusion about the...Qf8 scenario. To me the 
point of the move (beyond just dodging the Queen exchange) is to keep 
the Queen focused on Black's e7 and f4 pawns, squeeze in the move h6 
(White lost nothing with Qf8, any more than Black did  with...Qc4 - 
White is still one jump ahead in the pawn race just as he was after 
28.h4) and now, after

(28.h4 b5 29.h5 Qc4 30.Qf8 b4 31.h6)

31...b3, the move 32.Qf5+ has special significance, because if Black 
tries 32...Qe6 here, the King will be too distant from the h-pawn. To 
put it another way, White does not "save" a tempo, as some 
are suggesting, in the...e6 line by playing the "immediate" 
30.Qf5+ (instead of 30.Qf8) because Black does not need (and probably 
cannot afford) the resource...e6 at that juncture. Of course if White 
wants to enter the lines  30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qd3, or here 31.Qf8 Qg4!, 
those are completely separate issues with their own internal logic 
(or lack thereof). Sorry to repost this, but it may help. Someone was 
wondering about the idea 35.Qg8+ followed by 38.Qb1 or 38.Rd1 and 
asked that somebody better than them analyze it. I looked around and  
couldn't find anybody so I thought I would give it a try. 
(appropriate emoticon here)

I believe this analysis gains in relevance if the moves 31.h6 b3 are 
played before 32.Qf5+. (In certain lines, if Black interposes his 
Queen, and recaptures with his King, the King will now be too far 
from the h-pawn.)

28.h4 b5 29.h5 Qc4 30.Qf8 b4 31.h6 b3 32.Qf5+ e6 33.Qf7+ Kc8 34.Bf6 
b2 35.Qg8+ Kc7 36.Qh7+ Kb8 37.Bxe5 Nxe5 

38.Rd1 Qe2 39.Rb1 Nd3 

38.Qb1 f3 
   Or 38...Qc3 39.Rd1 (Or 39.h7 Nf3+) d5 40.h7 Nf7   
   41.Qg6 Qc1 42.Qd3 f3 43.gxf3 Qg5+ 44.Kf1 Qh6 and now 
   both 45.f4 and 45.Rb1 Ng5 are unclear (still edge to 
   White?)
39.h7 Qh4 40.g3 (Or 40.Qd1 d5) Qh3 41.h8=Q Qxh8 42.Qd1 Nc4

- Monarkh
http://www.stormloader.com/monarkh/KvW.html

0.00= 28...b5..Qf8,Qe2,and now Qf5 or Qd5 or Bxf4 or Bh6?!
.28 white....28...b5, Qf8, b4 (Qe2=), Rc1, Bb2, Rd1,  Nd4
.56 white....28...d5, h5, Bd6, h6, Nd8, Qh5,  Ne6, h7
1.00 white..28...Kd8?, h5, Qe2, Rc1, Bb2, Rb1, Be5
1.06 white.28..f3, gxf3, Qe2, Qf5+, Ke8, Qc8+, Nd8
.94white..28...f3, gxf3, Qe2, Qf5+, Ke8, Qc8+, Nd8
ply 12/33

Below are CM 6000 analysis (all symbols understood by context)
[Title "1999.08.14 - Kasparov vs The World"]
[Date "1999.08.14"]
[White "Chessmaster"]
[Black "Chessmaster"]
[Result "*"]

  1. e4             c5            
  2. çf3            d6            
  3. åb5+           åd7           
  4. åxd7+          ëxd7          
  5. c4             çc6           
  6. çc3            çf6           
  7. O-O            g6            
  8. d4             cxd4          
  9. çxd4           åg7           
 10. çde2           ëe6           
 11. çd5            ëxe4          
 12. çc7+           ïd7           
 13. çxa8           ëxc4          
 14. çb6+           axb6          
 15. çc3            êa8           
 16. a4             çe4           
 17. çxe4           ëxe4          
 18. ëb3            f5            
 19. åg5            ëb4           
 20. ëf7            åe5           
 21. h3             êxa4          
 22. êxa4           ëxa4          
 23. ëxh7           åxb2          
 24. ëxg6           ëe4           
 25. ëf7            åd4           
 26. ëb3            f4            
 27. ëf7            åe5           
 28. h4              *
= equal

Comment:...b5 is the move, regardless of one's follow-up moves, 
including The World Team eventually playing Qe2 (as opposed to the 
Qc4.  We prefer the Qe2 follow-up in some lines.)

Chessmasterone Analysts

On Sat Aug 14 15:19:43, Spiriev-28.h4! and Black lost as I pred wrote:
> I published an analyses nearly exactly two days ago on Russiuan 
> Grandmaster Chess-School site.
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?FridayAugust13199
> 90451pm
>  If You read it carefully it still holds many (still today) very new 
> and very dangerous ideas for Black. I always thought and I will 
> always think that in this position is absolutly lost for Black even 
> if Black plays brilliantly from now on(which we can hardly wait after 
> the previous play by 'Black Queen'.)
> This game is absolutle determinated and forced now and can be 
> analysed until Black gets mate or lost position after 3 hours of hard 
> work. I think the game will go as I wrote in my analyses two days 
> ago. I think the world must considerate the Russian GM's chesschool 
> reccomendations.To analyses on this BBS for example in the second 
> page that I never ever gave 29...Qc4 with "!" sign as they 
> say there (who knows for Why) I think that not even the God's God can 
> save Black's position from losing. But the position is interesting to 
> analyse for Masoists. Is there a losing in 15 moves or in  8 moves? 
> this is the question now which question I do not like to analyse, so 
> i can offer again my all time (two days ago) contribution. Are there 
> any new developments in this lines I gave originally (except the 
> Russians.G.M.s analyses which I do know already or no? I would like 
> to read some good concret analisis posts for my question. But please 
> only give it with 28...b5 29.h5! as this is the winning line for 
> White.
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?FridayAugust13199
> 90451pm
> 
>  All others are just waste of time. 
> 15...Rd8! or 15...b5! or 15...d5! that was the winning try for Black 
> and not 15...Ra8?. This bad position is only the result of that very 
> bad choiche just as I predicted and also 16...Ne4? instead of 
> 16...d5! and 18...f5?! was bad instead 
> of 18...Nd4(draw) or 18...e6(fight) not to mention 21...Rxa4?? 
> instead of 21...Rh8! (miracle draw. Again 26...f4? was bad and the 
> last chance for a little fight would have been  26...Bc5 (also with 
> very minimal chanche to save the draw. After that 26...f4? the game 
> is lost by force. All the above (alternative moves except the actual 
> moves happaned in the game I proposed with good detailed analyses in 
> right time but was not accepted by "offitial team". After 
> this there is not even good choiches but not even bad choiches for 
> Black as the game is lost. Not over yet but lost in many ways.The 
> problem with every published analisis now is that if it is a good and 
> sharp analisis than it will show White as winner. If the analisis bad 
> and not sharp at all it can show draw chanches for Black. In a World 
> team BBS where everybody is with Black to publish winning for White 
> in every line after 28.h4! is dangerous as nobody likes to realise 
> that he will lose. But i tried it and I published it the result was 
> what I waited. Personal attacks and dirty polotic like attack's just 
> to save the "imige of the game".
> There arne no miracles in chess. Kasparov had much worse position 
> after 10...Qe6! (new idea by Grandmaster Chessschool) and there was a 
> possibility for Win. Now in this objectively lost position there is 
> no help to team. So Why to publish sharp and detailed analyses in a 
> lost position. to get personal attacks again or to get thousends 
> "idiots"
> Irina choosed again the best and most dogmatic way. She says nothing 
> (Nothing!) concret.Smarchess and  She does not polagising for the bad 
> move they proposed but says " 29.h5! and after that?" this 
> shows they know already Black is lost but they still wants to eat 
> Your EGO's with seeming "nice contribution" They know they 
> lost it but they  will never tell You. Instead she give nice style 
> qustions for which they know the best now there is not answer. 
> Smartchess plays now the role of "Smartguys" bit they were 
> the only reason of this loss. Not even one move (most of it bad after 
> the 15th move) was made which was not a proposal of Irina Krush and 
> behind her by Smartchess.        
> All the moves the "world" played was a 15 yers old girls's 
> proposals( and behind her, her official  sponsors Smarchess from move 
> 1 until move 27th.) They even tried to creat some 'decoys' I will 
> always tell 28.h4! wins because the very bad previous o play by 
> Smartchess and Irina Krush . 
> This is the true. There wre 4 times already that all the world expert 
> proposed one move but She (behind her Smarchess) proposed a copmletly 
> different and of course much worse move. ) I think Irina and 
> Smarchess If You did not listened to me I think You suld have been 
> listening much more for Russan Gandmasters     as they really can 
> play chess and not like someones.  The las time I warne You. I think 
> You shold listen to there analyses more because they are very big 
> fighters even in very lost positions. Russian Grandmassters are 
> artists to defend bad positions. So I think You shold listen to them 
> a little bit more then to this board "good amateurs and weak 
> profi players" mostly bad analyses are they (the Russians) are 
> sometimes can show they are superplayers. I think they missed the 
> best strategie this time for Black. (after the bad 15...Ra8? there 
> was really diffivult to find any good strategie)but even if now after 
> 28.h4! they missed to considerae many of my very dangerous moves for 
> White (check my analyses at 
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?FridayAugust13199
> 90451pm
> I think there analyses the very last chanche for Blasck to losing 
> with some kind of pride instead of disasterous quick defeat.
> Sincerely Spiriev Peter Alain, 
> Budapest, Hungary.            
> 
> 
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?FridayAugust13199
> 90451pm

28.....	f3
29. g3 (forced I would say)
29.....	Nd4
30. Qxe7+	Kc6
31. Qe8+	Kc5
32. Qc8+	Kb4

Now can white stop

33.....	Ne2+
34. Kh1	Nxg3+
35. fxg3	Bxg3 with mate (f2 next move)

or

34. Kh2	Nxg3
35. fxg3	Qe2+
36. Kh1	Qg2++

or 

36. Kh3	Qg2+
37. Kg4	Qxf1 (or is there a better move?)

Look at my post below in response to Spiriev. Could someone refute 
this please!

why u have to be suach pain in the a**

Scroll Down to the Bottom, Dr. Peter the Hun!

On Sat Aug 14 15:19:43, Spiriev-28.h4! and Black lost as I pred wrote:
> I published an analyses nearly exactly two days ago on Russiuan 
> Grandmaster Chess-School site.
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?FridayAugust13199
> 90451pm
>  If You read it carefully it still holds many (still today) very new 
> and very dangerous ideas for Black. I always thought and I will 
> always think that in this position is absolutly lost for Black even 
> if Black plays brilliantly from now on(which we can hardly wait after 
> the previous play by 'Black Queen'.)
> This game is absolutle determinated and forced now and can be 
> analysed until Black gets mate or lost position after 3 hours of hard 
> work. I think the game will go as I wrote in my analyses two days 
> ago. I think the world must considerate the Russian GM's chesschool 
> reccomendations.To analyses on this BBS for example in the second 
> page that I never ever gave 29...Qc4 with "!" sign as they 
> say there (who knows for Why) I think that not even the God's God can 
> save Black's position from losing. But the position is interesting to 
> analyse for Masoists. Is there a losing in 15 moves or in  8 moves? 
> this is the question now which question I do not like to analyse, so 
> i can offer again my all time (two days ago) contribution. Are there 
> any new developments in this lines I gave originally (except the 
> Russians.G.M.s analyses which I do know already or no? I would like 
> to read some good concret analisis posts for my question. But please 
> only give it with 28...b5 29.h5! as this is the winning line for 
> White.
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?FridayAugust13199
> 90451pm
> 
>  All others are just waste of time. 
> 15...Rd8! or 15...b5! or 15...d5! that was the winning try for Black 
> and not 15...Ra8?. This bad position is only the result of that very 
> bad choiche just as I predicted and also 16...Ne4? instead of 
> 16...d5! and 18...f5?! was bad instead 
> of 18...Nd4(draw) or 18...e6(fight) not to mention 21...Rxa4?? 
> instead of 21...Rh8! (miracle draw. Again 26...f4? was bad and the 
> last chance for a little fight would have been  26...Bc5 (also with 
> very minimal chanche to save the draw. After that 26...f4? the game 
> is lost by force. All the above (alternative moves except the actual 
> moves happaned in the game I proposed with good detailed analyses in 
> right time but was not accepted by "offitial team". After 
> this there is not even good choiches but not even bad choiches for 
> Black as the game is lost. Not over yet but lost in many ways.The 
> problem with every published analisis now is that if it is a good and 
> sharp analisis than it will show White as winner. If the analisis bad 
> and not sharp at all it can show draw chanches for Black. In a World 
> team BBS where everybody is with Black to publish winning for White 
> in every line after 28.h4! is dangerous as nobody likes to realise 
> that he will lose. But i tried it and I published it the result was 
> what I waited. Personal attacks and dirty polotic like attack's just 
> to save the "imige of the game".
> There arne no miracles in chess. Kasparov had much worse position 
> after 10...Qe6! (new idea by Grandmaster Chessschool) and there was a 
> possibility for Win. Now in this objectively lost position there is 
> no help to team. So Why to publish sharp and detailed analyses in a 
> lost position. to get personal attacks again or to get thousends 
> "idiots"
> Irina choosed again the best and most dogmatic way. She says nothing 
> (Nothing!) concret.Smarchess and  She does not polagising for the bad 
> move they proposed but says " 29.h5! and after that?" this 
> shows they know already Black is lost but they still wants to eat 
> Your EGO's with seeming "nice contribution" They know they 
> lost it but they  will never tell You. Instead she give nice style 
> qustions for which they know the best now there is not answer. 
> Smartchess plays now the role of "Smartguys" bit they were 
> the only reason of this loss. Not even one move (most of it bad after 
> the 15th move) was made which was not a proposal of Irina Krush and 
> behind her by Smartchess.        
> All the moves the "world" played was a 15 yers old girls's 
> proposals( and behind her, her official  sponsors Smarchess from move 
> 1 until move 27th.) They even tried to creat some 'decoys' I will 
> always tell 28.h4! wins because the very bad previous o play by 
> Smartchess and Irina Krush . 
> This is the true. There wre 4 times already that all the world expert 
> proposed one move but She (behind her Smarchess) proposed a copmletly 
> different and of course much worse move. ) I think Irina and 
> Smarchess If You did not listened to me I think You suld have been 
> listening much more for Russan Gandmasters     as they really can 
> play chess and not like someones.  The las time I warne You. I think 
> You shold listen to there analyses more because they are very big 
> fighters even in very lost positions. Russian Grandmassters are 
> artists to defend bad positions. So I think You shold listen to them 
> a little bit more then to this board "good amateurs and weak 
> profi players" mostly bad analyses are they (the Russians) are 
> sometimes can show they are superplayers. I think they missed the 
> best strategie this time for Black. (after the bad 15...Ra8? there 
> was really diffivult to find any good strategie)but even if now after 
> 28.h4! they missed to considerae many of my very dangerous moves for 
> White (check my analyses at 
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?FridayAugust13199
> 90451pm
> I think there analyses the very last chanche for Blasck to losing 
> with some kind of pride instead of disasterous quick defeat.
> Sincerely Spiriev Peter Alain, 
> Budapest, Hungary.            
> 
> 
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?FridayAugust13199
> 90451pm
I know Fischer is delusional, but he would at least see that this 
game is a DRAW!!!
Dr. Hun! Short for Hungary! LOL!

Hi World Team,

 I agree with Danny King the game is in a complicated ending after 
move 28...b5, and Black is not in a disadvantage position, as Etienne
indicated in his move 28 analysis.

 Any other opinions?

  Sam

On Sat Aug 14 18:24:36, BurroPower wrote:
> On Sat Aug 14 18:08:51, Larry Kite wrote:
> > 29...Qc4 30.Qf8 Qe2 31.Qf5+ Kc7 32.Qf7 Qg4 33.Bh6 b4 34.Qg6 Qe2 
> > 35.Qf5 b3 and maybe Black is slightly better?
> THE 28...B5 LINE
> 28.h4 b5 
> 29.h5 Qc4  proposed by various GM players
> 30.Qf8 b4 
> 31.h6 b3 
> 32.Qf5+ Qe6 
> 33.Qe6+ Kxe6 
> 34.Bxf4 Bh8 (not a computer move!!)

it actually was found by crafty.

you underestimate the power of computers :-)

join the computer chess team, anyone who
is reading this!!

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

we need to consider 30...Qd3, 30...Qc2 and 30...f3
not just Qc2 as in the FAQ.

thanks.  (I also haven't checked whether 30...b3 is
rubbish yet.)

(apparently mrphew is showing a plus for black
in the ...Qd3 lines, see his post below)

On Sat Aug 14 20:21:50, BlauDanau wrote:
> Going to bed now; hope my contributions were helpful
> 
> Whatever we pick: GO WORLD!!!

What's the difference between Qd3 and Qc2??

after 

29.. ...b4
30.h6   Qd3(Qc2)
31.Bxf4 Nd8
32.Qh5  Bxf4
33.h7    Be5
34.Qxe5  dxe5
35.h8=Q  Nc6 look like a draw according to crafty 
so the Qd3 or Qc2 doesnt matter in this position

after 

31.h7  b3
32.Bxf4 b2
33.Qa2 Qxa2
34.Bxe5 Nxe5 
35.Qxb2 Nf3+
and now it's draw(perpetual check) in this line the position of the 
queen really doesn't matter because it gonna check on h6!

and BTW crafty quote Qd3 as Qd3!! even after 1hrs

SUMMARY FROM FAQ (Various analysts have contributed to this 
investigation, see the FAQ)

28.h4 b5 29.h5 

(29.Rc1 b4 30.h5 Qd3 favors Black) 

A) 29...b4 30.h6 

A1) 30...Qd3 may be less accurate 

A1a) 31.h7 b3 32.Re1 (32.Bxf4 b2 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 
Nf3+! Draw) 32...b2 33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 35.Qxe7+ Kc6 36.h8Q 
(36.Qe8+ Kb6 37.Qd8+ Kb5 38.Qd7+ Ka6 39.Rxb1 Qxb1+ transposes to 
30...Qc2) 36...Qxe1+ 37.Kh2 Kb6 38.Qhd8+ Ka7 is equal; 

A1b) 31.Bxf4 Nd8 32.Qh5 Bxf4 33.h7 Be5 34.Qxe5 dxe5 35.h8Q Nc6 
36.Qh5, (transposition from 29.h5 Qc4 30.Qf8 Qe4 31.h6 b4 32.Qf7 Qd3 
33.Bxf4 Nd8 34.Qh5 Bxf4 35.h7 Be5 36.Qxe5 dxe5 37.h8Q Nc6 38.Qh5 - 
The CORRECT assessment of this endgame is crucial to the viability of 
this line). 36.Qh3+ exchanging queens must be considered (a 
consequence of 30...Qd3) with an endgame that must be assessed 
correctly - indicating that 30...Qc2 may be better. 

A2) 30...Qc2 

A2a) 31.h7 b3, 

A2a1) 32.Re1 b2 33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 35.Qxe7+ Kc6,

A2a11) 36.Qe8+?! Kb6 37.Qd8+ Kb5 38.Qd7+ Ka6 39.Rxb1 Qxb1+ 40.Kh2 
Bxf6 41.Qxd6+ Kb5 (41...Qb6!? is a winning try!?) 42.Qxf6 Qxh7+ 
should be draw.

A2a12) 36.h8Q Qxe1+ 37.Kh2 Kb6 is equal.

A2a2) 32.Bxf4 b2 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 Nf3+! Draw.

A2b) 31.Bxf4!? Nd8 32.Qh5 Bxf4 33.h7 Be5 34.Qxe5 dxe5 35.h8Q Nc6 
36.Qh5 c/f GM School assessment for this endgame. The CORRECT 
assessment of this endgame is crucial to the viability of this line.

=======================================================
 
B) 29...Qe2 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Qh3 Qc2 32.Qg4 Qh7 33.Rd1 favors White.

*** However, here I am still looking at 32...b4, which may make 
29...Qe2 a good line!?

=======================================================

C) 29...Qc4 30.Qf8 

(30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6  - Current assessment of this endgame is 
draw; 30.Qxc4 bxc4 favors Black; 30.Qg6 Nd4 looks OK for Black) 

30...b4 31.h6 

(31.Qa8 Kc7 32.h6 b3! favors Black; 31.Qf5+?! Qe6 32.Qxe6+ Kxe6, 
Black is a tempo up on the endgame 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 - which 
is at least a draw) 

31...b3, 

C1) 32.h7 Qc2 or 32àb2!? leads to equality. 

C2) 32.Qf5+ e6 33.Qf7+ Kc8 34.Bf6 

(34.h7 b2 leads to equality; 34.Qg6 b2 35.h7 will transpose to 36.h7 
line, OK for Black) 

34...b2 35.Qg8+ Kc7 36.Qh7+ Kb8 37.Bxe5 Nxe5 leads to a draw.

=======================================================

29...Qc4 is my current preference, subject to ***.

Irina

On Sat Aug 14 21:46:08, Irina Krush wrote:

I would like to have a shot at why 2 connecters won't win this 
ending, but also like the idea of b4 in a few positions myself. 


> SUMMARY FROM FAQ (Various analysts have contributed to this 
> investigation, see the FAQ)
> 
> 28.h4 b5 29.h5 
> 
> (29.Rc1 b4 30.h5 Qd3 favors Black) 
> 
> A) 29...b4 30.h6 
> 
> A1) 30...Qd3 may be less accurate 
> 
> A1a) 31.h7 b3 32.Re1 (32.Bxf4 b2 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 
> Nf3+! Draw) 32...b2 33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 35.Qxe7+ Kc6 36.h8Q 
> (36.Qe8+ Kb6 37.Qd8+ Kb5 38.Qd7+ Ka6 39.Rxb1 Qxb1+ transposes to 
> 30...Qc2) 36...Qxe1+ 37.Kh2 Kb6 38.Qhd8+ Ka7 is equal; 
> 
> A1b) 31.Bxf4 Nd8 32.Qh5 Bxf4 33.h7 Be5 34.Qxe5 dxe5 35.h8Q Nc6 
> 36.Qh5, (transposition from 29.h5 Qc4 30.Qf8 Qe4 31.h6 b4 32.Qf7 Qd3 
> 33.Bxf4 Nd8 34.Qh5 Bxf4 35.h7 Be5 36.Qxe5 dxe5 37.h8Q Nc6 38.Qh5 - 
> The CORRECT assessment of this endgame is crucial to the viability of 
> this line). 36.Qh3+ exchanging queens must be considered (a 
> consequence of 30...Qd3) with an endgame that must be assessed 
> correctly - indicating that 30...Qc2 may be better. 
> 
> A2) 30...Qc2 
> 
> A2a) 31.h7 b3, 
> 
> A2a1) 32.Re1 b2 33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 35.Qxe7+ Kc6,
> 
> A2a11) 36.Qe8+?! Kb6 37.Qd8+ Kb5 38.Qd7+ Ka6 39.Rxb1 Qxb1+ 40.Kh2 
> Bxf6 41.Qxd6+ Kb5 (41...Qb6!? is a winning try!?) 42.Qxf6 Qxh7+ 
> should be draw.
> 
> A2a12) 36.h8Q Qxe1+ 37.Kh2 Kb6 is equal.
> 
> A2a2) 32.Bxf4 b2 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 Nf3+! Draw.
> 
> A2b) 31.Bxf4!? Nd8 32.Qh5 Bxf4 33.h7 Be5 34.Qxe5 dxe5 35.h8Q Nc6 
> 36.Qh5 c/f GM School assessment for this endgame. The CORRECT 
> assessment of this endgame is crucial to the viability of this line.
> 
> =======================================================
>  
> B) 29...Qe2 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Qh3 Qc2 32.Qg4 Qh7 33.Rd1 favors White.
> 
> *** However, here I am still looking at 32...b4, which may make 
> 29...Qe2 a good line!?
> 
> =======================================================
> 
> C) 29...Qc4 30.Qf8 
> 
> (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6  - Current assessment of this endgame is 
> draw; 30.Qxc4 bxc4 favors Black; 30.Qg6 Nd4 looks OK for Black) 
> 
> 30...b4 31.h6 
> 
> (31.Qa8 Kc7 32.h6 b3! favors Black; 31.Qf5+?! Qe6 32.Qxe6+ Kxe6, 
> Black is a tempo up on the endgame 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 - which 
> is at least a draw) 
> 
> 31...b3, 
> 
> C1) 32.h7 Qc2 or 32b2!? leads to equality. 
> 
> C2) 32.Qf5+ e6 33.Qf7+ Kc8 34.Bf6 
> 
> (34.h7 b2 leads to equality; 34.Qg6 b2 35.h7 will transpose to 36.h7 
> line, OK for Black) 
> 
> 34...b2 35.Qg8+ Kc7 36.Qh7+ Kb8 37.Bxe5 Nxe5 leads to a draw.
> 
> =======================================================
> 
> 29...Qc4 is my current preference, subject to ***.
> 
> Irina

after 29. ......Qe230.Qf7ch Kc731.. Qh3 Qc2

if 32. Qh4 Nd4 33.h6 f3 34.h7 Ne2ch 35.Kh1 Qd3! 36.Re1 Qc3
37. Rd1 Qc2 (draw by repition) if 33.Be7 f3!

if 32. Qg4  b4 33. Bxf4 Qe4! leads to equal endgame

if. 32 h6 Qg6 33.Qg6 f3 34.g3 b4 35. h7 b3 36.h8q bxh8
has been shown earlier to favor Black 

sorry to re-post all this but I worked on all day and its solid.

> SUMMARY FROM FAQ (Various analysts have contributed to this 
> investigation, see the FAQ)
> 
> 28.h4 b5 29.h5 
> 
> (29.Rc1 b4 30.h5 Qd3 favors Black) 
> 
> A) 29...b4 30.h6 
> 
> A1) 30...Qd3 may be less accurate 
> 
> A1a) 31.h7 b3 32.Re1 (32.Bxf4 b2 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 
> Nf3+! Draw) 32...b2 33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 35.Qxe7+ Kc6 36.h8Q 
> (36.Qe8+ Kb6 37.Qd8+ Kb5 38.Qd7+ Ka6 39.Rxb1 Qxb1+ transposes to 
> 30...Qc2) 36...Qxe1+ 37.Kh2 Kb6 38.Qhd8+ Ka7 is equal; 
> 
> A1b) 31.Bxf4 Nd8 32.Qh5 Bxf4 33.h7 Be5 34.Qxe5 dxe5 35.h8Q Nc6 
> 36.Qh5, (transposition from 29.h5 Qc4 30.Qf8 Qe4 31.h6 b4 32.Qf7 Qd3 
> 33.Bxf4 Nd8 34.Qh5 Bxf4 35.h7 Be5 36.Qxe5 dxe5 37.h8Q Nc6 38.Qh5 - 
> The CORRECT assessment of this endgame is crucial to the viability of 
> this line). 36.Qh3+ exchanging queens must be considered (a 
> consequence of 30...Qd3) with an endgame that must be assessed 
> correctly - indicating that 30...Qc2 may be better. 
> 
> A2) 30...Qc2 
> 
> A2a) 31.h7 b3, 
> 
> A2a1) 32.Re1 b2 33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 35.Qxe7+ Kc6,
> 
> A2a11) 36.Qe8+?! Kb6 37.Qd8+ Kb5 38.Qd7+ Ka6 39.Rxb1 Qxb1+ 40.Kh2 
> Bxf6 41.Qxd6+ Kb5 (41...Qb6!? is a winning try!?) 42.Qxf6 Qxh7+ 
> should be draw.
> 
> A2a12) 36.h8Q Qxe1+ 37.Kh2 Kb6 is equal.
> 
> A2a2) 32.Bxf4 b2 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 Nf3+! Draw.
> 
> A2b) 31.Bxf4!? Nd8 32.Qh5 Bxf4 33.h7 Be5 34.Qxe5 dxe5 35.h8Q Nc6 
> 36.Qh5 c/f GM School assessment for this endgame. The CORRECT 
> assessment of this endgame is crucial to the viability of this line.
> 
> =======================================================
>  
> B) 29...Qe2 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Qh3 Qc2 32.Qg4 Qh7 33.Rd1 favors White.
> 
> *** However, here I am still looking at 32...b4, which may make 
> 29...Qe2 a good line!?
> 
> =======================================================
> 
> C) 29...Qc4 30.Qf8 
> 
> (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6  - Current assessment of this endgame is 
> draw; 30.Qxc4 bxc4 favors Black; 30.Qg6 Nd4 looks OK for Black) 
> 
> 30...b4 31.h6 
> 
> (31.Qa8 Kc7 32.h6 b3! favors Black; 31.Qf5+?! Qe6 32.Qxe6+ Kxe6, 
> Black is a tempo up on the endgame 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 - which 
> is at least a draw) 
> 
> 31...b3, 
> 
> C1) 32.h7 Qc2 or 32b2!? leads to equality. 
> 
> C2) 32.Qf5+ e6 33.Qf7+ Kc8 34.Bf6 
> 
> (34.h7 b2 leads to equality; 34.Qg6 b2 35.h7 will transpose to 36.h7 
> line, OK for Black) 
> 
> 34...b2 35.Qg8+ Kc7 36.Qh7+ Kb8 37.Bxe5 Nxe5 leads to a draw.
> 
> =======================================================
> 
> 29...Qc4 is my current preference, subject to ***.
> 
> Irina

On Sat Aug 14 22:08:20, BMcC Can we see the reason Qe6 ok again?? 
wrote:


The move order agrees completely and as far as I see Irina and my 
outline agree 100% and since we posted within 2 minutes of each 
other, its totally independent since we discussed e6 last night.


> On Sat Aug 14 21:46:08, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> I would like to have a shot at why 2 connecters won't win this 
> ending, but also like the idea of b4 in a few positions myself. 
> 
> 
> > SUMMARY FROM FAQ (Various analysts have contributed to this 
> > investigation, see the FAQ)
> > 
> > 28.h4 b5 29.h5 
> > 
> > (29.Rc1 b4 30.h5 Qd3 favors Black) 
> > 
> > A) 29...b4 30.h6 
> > 
> > A1) 30...Qd3 may be less accurate 
> > 
> > A1a) 31.h7 b3 32.Re1 (32.Bxf4 b2 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 
> > Nf3+! Draw) 32...b2 33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 35.Qxe7+ Kc6 36.h8Q 
> > (36.Qe8+ Kb6 37.Qd8+ Kb5 38.Qd7+ Ka6 39.Rxb1 Qxb1+ transposes to 
> > 30...Qc2) 36...Qxe1+ 37.Kh2 Kb6 38.Qhd8+ Ka7 is equal; 
> > 
> > A1b) 31.Bxf4 Nd8 32.Qh5 Bxf4 33.h7 Be5 34.Qxe5 dxe5 35.h8Q Nc6 
> > 36.Qh5, (transposition from 29.h5 Qc4 30.Qf8 Qe4 31.h6 b4 32.Qf7 Qd3 
> > 33.Bxf4 Nd8 34.Qh5 Bxf4 35.h7 Be5 36.Qxe5 dxe5 37.h8Q Nc6 38.Qh5 - 
> > The CORRECT assessment of this endgame is crucial to the viability of 
> > this line). 36.Qh3+ exchanging queens must be considered (a 
> > consequence of 30...Qd3) with an endgame that must be assessed 
> > correctly - indicating that 30...Qc2 may be better. 
> > 
> > A2) 30...Qc2 
> > 
> > A2a) 31.h7 b3, 
> > 
> > A2a1) 32.Re1 b2 33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 35.Qxe7+ Kc6,
> > 
> > A2a11) 36.Qe8+?! Kb6 37.Qd8+ Kb5 38.Qd7+ Ka6 39.Rxb1 Qxb1+ 40.Kh2 
> > Bxf6 41.Qxd6+ Kb5 (41...Qb6!? is a winning try!?) 42.Qxf6 Qxh7+ 
> > should be draw.
> > 
> > A2a12) 36.h8Q Qxe1+ 37.Kh2 Kb6 is equal.
> > 
> > A2a2) 32.Bxf4 b2 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 Nf3+! Draw.
> > 
> > A2b) 31.Bxf4!? Nd8 32.Qh5 Bxf4 33.h7 Be5 34.Qxe5 dxe5 35.h8Q Nc6 
> > 36.Qh5 c/f GM School assessment for this endgame. The CORRECT 
> > assessment of this endgame is crucial to the viability of this line.
> > 
> > =======================================================
> >  
> > B) 29...Qe2 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Qh3 Qc2 32.Qg4 Qh7 33.Rd1 favors White.
> > 
> > *** However, here I am still looking at 32...b4, which may make 
> > 29...Qe2 a good line!?
> > 
> > =======================================================
> > 
> > C) 29...Qc4 30.Qf8 
> > 
> > (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6  - Current assessment of this endgame is 
> > draw; 30.Qxc4 bxc4 favors Black; 30.Qg6 Nd4 looks OK for Black) 
> > 
> > 30...b4 31.h6 
> > 
> > (31.Qa8 Kc7 32.h6 b3! favors Black; 31.Qf5+?! Qe6 32.Qxe6+ Kxe6, 
> > Black is a tempo up on the endgame 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 - which 
> > is at least a draw) 
> > 
> > 31...b3, 
> > 
> > C1) 32.h7 Qc2 or 32b2!? leads to equality. 
> > 
> > C2) 32.Qf5+ e6 33.Qf7+ Kc8 34.Bf6 
> > 
> > (34.h7 b2 leads to equality; 34.Qg6 b2 35.h7 will transpose to 36.h7 
> > line, OK for Black) 
> > 
> > 34...b2 35.Qg8+ Kc7 36.Qh7+ Kb8 37.Bxe5 Nxe5 leads to a draw.
> > 
> > =======================================================
> > 
> > 29...Qc4 is my current preference, subject to ***.
> > 
> > Irina

On Sat Aug 14 22:50:01, GM Chase wrote:
> 
> Challenge to the B5 supporters. 


h4 h5 h6 your move
> 
> Refute d5. 
> 
> black wins after 
> h4 d5 h5 bd6  
> h4 d5 Rd1 d4  (very difficult but still winable I found this to be 
> the most challenging line for black.)
>  
> 
> For the rest of you who disagree with b5 
> here are 2 very simple puzzles. :) 
> White 
> Rook on a2
> King on f3
> Black pawn on g2 
> Black king on f1
> Black to move : how does black draw ?
> 
> 
> white rook on b1
> white king on b2
> white pawn on d5
> 
> black king on a4
> black rook on h5 
> 
> white to move and win the game. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

28.h4 b5 29.h5 Qe2 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Qh3 Dave Shukan Analyzing... 
31...f3 (pending, then 32.Qxf3 Bh2 33.Kxh2 Qxf1 34.h6 Qa1) 12 
(pending) 0.71 -- looks bad! Begin 8/14, 6pm PST CM6000 (ss0) likely 
decision point after 29...Qe2 


how does this fit into GM Suttles' plan, i'm still working on his 1 
move candidates. 
thnx

If for no other reason than at least ...h6 has been looked at:

2 lines that need work :
28.h4 b5 29.h5 29 Qc4 30.Qf8 Qe2 31.Qf5+ Kc7 
32.Qh4 Qh7 33.h6 Nd4 34.Re1 f3 35.Bxe7 Nf5 36.Rc1+ Kb8 37.Qe4 fxg2 +61


28.h4 b5 jb 29.h5 29...Qc4 30.Qf8 Qe2 31.Qf5+ Kc7 32.Qh3 Qc2 33.h6 
Qg6 34.Qh4 Nd4 full 17 +0.39 5h crafty 16.15/solaris crafty rates end 
pos. +0.76 @ 11ply

I'm from Calgary, Alberta.....
35, and losing lots of sleep on this game.
How about everyone else here?

nt..

On Sun Aug 15 00:07:25, Curious in Calgary wrote:
> I'm from Calgary, Alberta.....
> 35, and losing lots of sleep on this game.
> How about everyone else here?

Looking for a 29.Rd1 line, in case.

Thank you, ours below.
29.Rd1, b4 and then perhaps....
Qb3....a..Qe2 (11/31ply)
           b. Bd4 (.19), Qb1
           c. e6, Qb1, Qxb1, Rxb1, f3, gxf3, Kc8
           d. Bc3, Qb1, Qxb1, Rxb1, f3, gxf3, Ne5

"28...b5 29.h5, after which Black will have two possible lines:
(A) 29...Qe2 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5 with an advantage 
for White. 
(B) 29...Qc4 30.Qf8! (30.Qf5+ Qe6) Qe2 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5, 
after which White is better off. Even if Black is worse off after 
either of these two lines, I think they represent our best chance to 
fight for a draw." - Etienne Bacrot

The above analysis (and comments) by Etienne Bacrot, inspired our 
small team to work hard on extensive analysis because Mr. Bacrot's 
statement "I think they represent our best chance to fight for a 
draw" is not sufficient for a positive conclusion.

We all feel that the following analysis shows that Black can survive 
with a draw in all ensuing variations... Yes, I am the first to admit 
that I am astonished (and very pleased) that we have successfully (in 
our collective opinions) found a miracle line for Black, providing, 
of course, that Mr. Kasparov continues with 29.h5, which is not 
certain, but let's "go with it" anyway!

Analysis: After 28...b5! and "if" 29.h5= ... 

(Alternatives for White are: 29.Rd1=, Qf8=, and Rc1=, and analysis on 
all of these possibilities has been put aside, in the hope that 
Kasparov will continue with 29.h5, also hoping that this analysis 
will not become a futile effort).  

Symbols used: [= Even] [% Unclear] [=> Slight Advantage] [@ 
Winning Chances]

(A-main line) 29...Qe2!

(B) 29...Qc4!?
(B1) 30.Qf5+ Kc7% (30...Qe6?!%)
(B2) 30.Qf8 Qe2 31.Qf5+ (31.Bxf4!? Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5%) 31...Kc7 
32.Bxf4 Bxf4 33.Qxf4 Qxh5=, with transposition to main line (A) 
analysis.

(A-main line) 30.Qf5+ ...

(A1) 30.Bh6!? b4 31.Rc1 Bd4 32.Qf5+ Kc7 33.Qxf4 Qxh5 34.Qxd4 Qxh6=
(A2) 30.Bxf4!? Bxf4 31.Qxf4 Qxh5 32.Qd2 e6 33.Rd1 Qe5=
(A3) 30.Qg6!? f3!? 31.Qf5+ Kc7 32.gxf3 Nd4 33.Rc1+ Kb6 34.Qf8 Nxf3+! 
35.Kh1 Nxg5! Forcing Kasparov to concede to a drawn game! 36.Qd8+ Ka7 
(36...Ka6 37.Qa8+ Kb6 38.Qd8+= repetition of position is forced) 
37.Qa5+ Kb8 38.Qd8+= etc.

(A-main line) 30...Kc7 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5
"It is very difficult to visualize and count on Kasparov to allow 
his precious h-Pawn to fall, but I see no other way for him to 
extricate his position in order to activate White's Rook." - 
GM2654 (Who, like myself, wishes to remain anonymous).

(A-main line) 33.Rc1 Qd5 
(33...Qe2=%, 33...Qg6=%, 33...Kb8!?=%) 
34.Kf1 ...

(A1) 34.g4!? (Hope Kasparov sees this mirage! :) 34...e5! 35.Qf6 b4! 
36.g5!? Qd3! => (Not 36...b3? 37.Rb1 Nd4 38.g6 @)
37.Kg2! b3! 38.Qf7+ Kb6 39.Qf3 Qb5! 
(Not 39...Qxf3+ 40.Kxf3 =>) 
40.g6!? Nd4!=, and Black should survive with at least a draw. 
However, one slight slip in this position by Kasparov, would allow 
Black to realize a miracle win!

(A-main line) 34...e5 35.Qg4!? Qd3+
(35...Kb6!? 36.Qd1 Qe6% or, 36...Nd4%)
36.Qe2 ...
(36.Ke1, or 36.Kg1, 36...d5 =>)
36...Qh7!=
(36...Qxe2+?! 37.Kxe2%; 36...Qb3, or 36...Qa3, 37.Qe3%)
37.Kg1 Kb6!=
(37...Qh6!? 38.Rd1 Nd4 39.Qa2%)
38.Qe3+ ...
(38.f4 Nd4 39.Qe3 Qh5!= transposition to main line analysis) 
38...Nd4!? Might not be a good idea to continue hoping for a miracle 
win if we make it this far. (38...Kc7= putting the question to White 
39.Qe2!? draw by repetition?) 39.f4! Qh5
(39...Qg7 40.fxe5 dxe5=. Or, 39...Qh6 40.g3=)
40.fxe5 dxe5=
(40...Qxe5!? 41.Kf2% or 41.Qxe5% or 41.Qf2%)
41.Re1% Qg6! 42.Qe4 Qg5! and the world should survive with a 
miracle draw no matter what the World Champion tries from here! :)
(But not 42...Qxe4? 43.Rxe4 Nc6, leading to a text-book ending giving 
White winning chances after 44.g4! =>@).

We sincerely hope that this analysis will help the world achieve a 
draw... Or, maybe some bright young star will find a miracle win for 
Black hidden somewhere in the lines! :)

{Note to Irina Krush}
Just want you to know that I do not hold any malice feelings 
concerning you whatsoever. In fact, I certainly want you to know that 
I think that you are a very bright young lady (and a very strong 
Grandmaster of chess) with a brilliant chess future ahead of you!

I am not certain if you are aware of the fact that I have voiced my 
opinions concerning the way this world event has taken course. My 
views are strictly based on disappointment for the way the organizers 
of this game allowed one group of analysts to take complete control 
over the Black side. I realize that you are not responsible for this, 
and just happened to get caught up in this dilemma yourself. My 
sincerest apology to you, if I have hurt your feelings in any way. 
Such was certainly not intended towards you, but was aimed at those 
who allowed such a fiasco to occur. Wishing you the best in all of 
your endeavors...

Go World :) Let's at least achieve a draw in this game... While the 
opportunity can be taken in this current position!

Sincerely,
David GM2505

PS - I certainly pray that we have not overlooked any hidden dangers 
lurking in White's position. Mr. Kasparov is tenacious... Please 
remember this world!

On Sun Aug 15 01:35:54, Dremtru wrote:
> Has anyone checked out Nd4?
> 
> Here is one example:
> 
> 28. ...   Nd4
> 29. Qxe7  Kc6
> 30. Rc1+  Kb5

What if 30.Qe8+ instead of Rc1+  and then Qc8+

> 31. Qe8+  Kb4
> 32. Rf1   Ne2+ 
> 33. Kh1   f3
> 34. g3   Nxg3+
> 35. fxg3  f2+
> 36. Kh2   Bxg3+
> 37. Kxg3  Qxe8
> 
> There is more here but I'm in a rush.

go to http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/derby/3012/
click on bobby fisher(mispelled) and read his interview.  sure does 
sound like you know who!! sorry i dont know how to create a link. 
would someone explain that to me??  :) mark

On Sun Aug 15 03:06:52, sounds like spiriev wrote:
> go to http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/derby/3012/
> click on bobby fisher(mispelled) and read his interview.  sure does 
> sound like you know who!! sorry i dont know how to create a link. 
> would someone explain that to me??  :) mark

also i see the link magically created itself. now thats cool!!

Is it too thin?
or may be too thick 
:)

On Sun Aug 15 02:14:40, Dremtru wrote:
> On Sun Aug 15 02:00:28, Subash Nair wrote:
> > On Sun Aug 15 01:55:38, Subash Nair wrote:
> > > On Sun Aug 15 01:35:54, Dremtru wrote:
> > > > Has anyone checked out Nd4?
> > > > 
> > > > Here is one example:
> > > > 
> > > > 28. ...   Nd4
> > > > 29. Qxe7  Kc6
> > > > 30. Rc1+  Kb5
> > > 
> > > What if 30.Qe8+ instead of Rc1+  and then Qc8+
> > .
> > > 
> > > > 31. Qe8+  Kb4
> > > > 32. Rf1   Ne2+ 
> > > > 33. Kh1   f3
> > > > 34. g3   Nxg3+
> > > > 35. fxg3  f2+
> > > > 36. Kh2   Bxg3+
> > > > 37. Kxg3  Qxe8
> > > > 
> > > > There is more here but I'm in a rush.
> 
> To Qe8+ and Qc8+ there is:
> 
> 28. ...   Nd4
> 29. Qe7+  Kc6
> 30, Qe8+  Kc5
> 31. Qc8   Kb4
> 
> Whites pieces are horribly co-ordinated and their is a black storm 
> brewing over the white king. The rook has no good squares at the 
> moment either.

Recent commentary by Danny King has this gem:
      "Normal rules have to be taken with a grain
of Salt." 
       If a couple of thousand years of chess have
shown anything it is that there are fixed truths on the
board and that only temporarily do the rules seem to be
suspended and some wonder contrary to these rules 
possible. Recognizing these rare exceptions to the 
rules is the mark of the chess genius and the Grandmaster. 
Ninety-nine point nine percent of the time
a game goes along like clockwork according to the 
brutal truths of chess. It is no different in the game
Kasparov-World.
        At the present the battle is not for squares or
for an attack but for the initiative. That is why Garry
has not brought the rook out - it will be attacked.

no i havent done any in depth computer analysis but im just tired of 
pussyfooting around here. to me the logical answer to that move would 
be his Qxf3 right?? then we could move our Q to h7. stops his advance 
cold AND no more Qf7 for him!! our N is FREE!!! ok now tear this 
apart!!

please add this to my first post and hash it out. then yell at me and 
tell me why im such a crappy chess player  LOL :)

Michael Adams, World Champion?
Vladimir Akopian, World Champion?
Aleksandr Khalifman, World Champion?
Liviu-Dieter Nisipeanu, World Champion??

Nah, just doesn't sound right, does it?

Hello,

29. ... Qe2? is now refuted!

After 
29. h5 Qe2?
30. Qf5+ Kc7
31. Qh3 Qc2

I have improved white's play to

32. Qe6! Qc4
33. Qxc4! Pxc4
34. h6

possibilities for black?

A) Advancing the c-pawn

34. ... c3
35. h7  c2

white can now simply play
36. Bxf4 Bxf4
37. h8Q c1Q
38. Rxc1 Bxc1 (and white is clearly better off for the endgame)

or for the optimists (I know that there would be somebody who would 
suppose
that black will win for sure this endgame!)

36. Rc1 which finishs the last hopes for black

o.k. Moves with the knight


B) 34. ... Nd4

35. Re1 (what now? Black is lost)

or

C) 34. ... Nd8 

35. h7 Nf7
36. Bxe7 (black can resign)


This refutes completely the move 29. ... Qe2

Cheers Ulf

Why waste time moving our queen. The queen is well posted. If we play 
e5 on one of our following moves, the white queen is cut off, the 
white rook has no good place to go, the black bishop covers h8, the b 
pawn can run, in some lines the e pawn is shepherded in with the 
black queen. We have three passed pawns and well posted pieces.

He eats Spam.  Spread the word.

:) bye, mark!

maybe kasparov will convert it to a knight, i've seen this before.  
let's not assume please, ass out of u & me.

This until I know is not a politician or a family history site but a 
chesssite. But to clearyfie everithing connecting to me.
One of my my grandfather was Dr.Kun Imre who was a Jew
He was my mother's father. He was the most humorous man on earth.We 
all liked him as a God. But my mother belives and belived only in 
Jesus Cristus. I think everybody is that what he or she holds himself.
My mother (who is a brilliant woman everybody likes and recpect her 
in Hungary and in the World . I think she is the only person on this 
earh who has not even one enemie.Everybody likes her. But she was and 
is  never religious. She belives only in Jesus Cristsus but we never 
went into chearch. We are a truly sport family and an extremly famous 
sport family in Athletics (Track and Filed) and never interested in 
politics or other not sport questions. Our "church"
is the Atletical Stadion.
We all were born to be as Athlet. Even my mother's grandfather's 
father was a famous athlet in Hungarian -Austrian (Monarchy) .
My mother for some reason never considrered herself as a Jew. 
Probably because my grandmather is a French born woman and she did 
and does not like Jews at all.
In fact she likes Germany and French people. So after this My mother 
also became a Cristian but I think she never wet to churches but she 
I know belives in Jesus Cristus.  So she is not a Jew. 
My gradfather was a Jew and he was proud for that.    
I was born in Athen. As I liked the sun and the mare I went to 
stadions from stadions and was never occopied with any other qustions 
that like this How much jumped yestarday Larry Mirics or Carl Lewis. 
As I was a sprinter (a short distance runner) 100 metres 200 metres 
and Long Jumper (819 centimetres was my best and with it second place 
in Hungary after Szalma Laszlo) As in sprinting mostly Blacks are 
good my all friends was Black guys. I have had always Black guy 
friends. I heared nealy always only Black music (soul or rap or 
reggae  music) so my lifestile is also similar to Black's. I was 
grown up on Bill Cosby's shows and  on very easy light american 
comedies.
I was and not I am and I never will be intersted in religion 
questions as I consider it only the human's mind's fantasy. I do not 
belive in any God. 
I never liked religion and I never will like it.
So I am not a Christian and not a Jew and I do not belong to nowhere 
in religion. In fact I do not like Churches at all. I could never 
take these thing seriously. I am a sportsman in true sense. We live 
our lifes in  Great Stadions all over the World and absulutly not 
interested in religion and politics. 
I know chessplayers like to play with such questions but I 'am not. I 
respect everybody who is religionus but I am not and I never will be 
. We wil always remain only sportmans and nothing more. Maybe if I 
will be at that time my son will be in Jerusalem but I am sure he 
will never be a Jew  just a sprtsman . But if he will born in Saud 
Arabia (because there will be some Athletic meeting too) of course he 
will never be a religionus or a mohamedan but only a sportman.
 If he will be born in Zurich he will be not a Christian but a 
sportsman as he will born as a great Athlitic's family next hope to 
be the greatest athlet sometimes.  My attorney ,cousin and friend Dr. 
Kun Peter considers himself as a Jew. He and his brother has Jewish 
wifes. We are very good friends with him and he helped me a lot in my 
busness things.
We can never turn against any Jew as my fasmily's half part are Jews. 
But I am an independent not religionus sprtsman who belives in only 
one thing fro my childhood. I belives in Womans beuty. Nothing 
interested me in life only this and music. I am a sportsman in every 
sense (everybody can tell You who knows me) so please I ask You stop 
playing with my name connecting in these hard and I can't understand 
questions. Most of the times I do not even understand what asre You 
talking about here. I never learned  religion things and I never 
readed even one line from the Bible yet. And I do not think I will 
read it in the future as I much more interested in Bud Winter's 
training programs for Sprinters than this.
Thank for Understanding , 
Best to You Spiriev Peter Alain  
        


P.S If You are interested in these kind of qustions I 
would like to help You  with one information I surely know (maybe 
yhis is the only one I know about religion questions)
 It is difficult deside Jesus was a Jew or a Greek. In Greeceland 
where I was born (Athen) Greek peples holds Jesus as an Originally 
greek man. The historians I think  can never tell it surely is it 
true or not.

On Sun Aug 15 18:08:06, APOLLO 13 wrote:
> Houston....We have another problem. This time it's the big one.  We 
> tried the variation  29.h5  Qc4????  30.Qxc4+++ but our last 
> remaining oxygen tank burst. We seems to be having endless problems 
> all the time...

No more than Kasparov, by his own admission. :)

> 
> --APOLLO 13 (approaching the moon)
> 
> THE MAIN LINE:
> 
> 29. h5 Qc4???   with the hope that GK will not 
>                 exchange his Queen.  This assumption
>                 is similar to the belief of our
>                 ancestor that the earth is flat and
>                 that the sun and all heavenly bodies
>                 revolve around the earth. And we  
>                 accepted this dogma by route without
>                 questioning and investigation. To the 
>                 following exchange of Queens one may
>                 ask like the writer (I can't remember
>                 his name) and it goes something like
>                 this, "...some would ask why? while 
>                 others would say Why not?...."
> 
>                The idea with this invitation to 
>                exchange is A)to remove the powerful 
>                defender of the h-pawn B)connect the
>                3 connected passed-pawn at the quuenside
>                for a concerted push to the queening
>                squares hoping it will crush White's
>                defenses.  But would this seemingly 
>                good strategy hold against a condition 
>                that clearly calls for forceful tactics?
> 
> 30. Qxc4!!!    probably wins in all variations?

It's a horrible move and Kasparov will never play it.  It undoubles 
the b pawns and black will win.  He can do much better.

> This idea entered my mind borrowing from the line of ULF who used it 
> to refute 30....Qe2!? so please do not heap abuse on me.  I'm just 
> trying to assist as a good teammate.
> 
> Let's investigate:
> 
> 30. ..... bxc4 it's a forced move (ala Etiennne Bacrot)
> 31. h6    How do we now stop the h-pawn and how do we  
>           defend our f-pawn at the same time?
> =======================================================
> 
> Variation No.1) Knight in shining armor to the rescue of the damsel 
> in distress (I'm not referring to Irina)
> 
> 31.......Nd4   with the idea of checking the King at
>                e2 and supporting the advancing c-pawn 
>                at c1.

Nd4 is simply bad.  31...b5 and black's connected passed pawns are on 
the march, black has a major advantage positionally, and Kasparov 
will not play this unless he had a stroke.  This is already all in 
the FAQ.  I've wasted a lot of time myself on variations only to see 
them already in the FAQ or refuted, so now I make sure to download 
the latest FAQ before I start working on a variation.  You obviously 
took some time to write this up, but your time would be spent much 
more productively trying to find holes in the FAQ lines......

Karl:
DK and I played almost the IDENTICAL line a couple nights ago.  I was 
trying to show him why Bf6 could win for white because of Qg8+ and 
Qh7+ allowing the white queen to cover the b1 queening square.  I did 
NOT see your f3 move for white that allows the white king to go to f2 
instead of e2 (at e2 the white king is in peril but with Kf2, Kg1, 
Kh2 he looks safe).  I needed an expert to help me because I'm not a 
very good player (I don't even use a computer).  Please respond.

On Sun Aug 15 22:02:04, Karl Juhnke wrote:
> The main FAQ line is just too confusing for me to understand.  The 
> only thing I feel I can do is have my computer play through the main 
> lines and try out any deviation that occurs to it or to me, to see 
> how I get crushed for deviating.
> 
> Usually I am missing some obvious and smashing tactic.  However, 
> there is one line where deviation seems to pay for white.  My 
> computer says black ends up in a lost end game.  The line (FAQ main 
> line through move 37) is as follows:
> 
> 28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf8 b4 31. h6 b3 32. Qf5+ e6 33. Qf7+ Kc8 
> 34. Bf6 b2 35. Kg8+ Kc7 36. Qh7+ Kb8 37. Bxe5 Nxe5 38. f3 Nf7 39. 
> Qxf7 Qxf1+ 40. Kxf1 b1Q+ 41. Kf2 Qb2+ 42. Kg1
> 
> From this position, even though white is a pawn down, the h-pawn 
> appears very strong.  There is no perpetual check for black; the 
> white queen can shepard the h-pawn forward while guarding against the 
> perpetual.
> 
> What is going on here?  Is my computer really evaluating the end 
> position correctly?  If black is lost here, what is the best place to 
> deviate?  There doesn't seem much chance to deviate before move 38... 
> Is there an improvement afterwards?
> 
> If I am just in a sleep-deprived haze, thanks to anyone who can bring 
> me clarity.
> 
> Peace,
> -Fritz

Available at SmartChess Online
http://www.smartchess.com/SmartChessOnline/
Click on "Garry Kasparov versus The World"
Click on "Irina Analysis FAQ"

Downloads in 
CBV/PGN - zipped
CBV 
PGN

On Sun Aug 15 23:17:17, Steve B. wrote:
> This post is in response to Dave Gale and Duncan Settles, who both 
> suggested that the 29... Qe2 30. Qf5+ line looks like could lead to a 
> draw.  Dave further suggested however the mighty GK might somehow 
> find a way to force his pawn home faster than projected by present 
> game analysis so instead of 29... Qe2, 29... Qc4 might be better 
> advised.
> 
> What follows is my attempt at analysis on 29... Qe2, only this time 
> incorporating 30. Qf5+, and it does make a difference.  I played 
> Fritz in a mock game, allowing Fritz to represent Black and took 
> advantage of Fritz's obliging blunder checks on my moves such that I 
> found (hopefully) reasonable moves for White.  My aim was to force 
> home White's h pawn as fast as possible and this meant at times 
> overriding Fritz's suggested moves for White.
> 
> I started off with Dave Gale's 33... e6 move for Black, even though 
> Fritz liked 33... Qd5 better.  After that, Fritz took over Black at a 
> ply depth of 10 (sometimes 11) as that is all I had time for.  
> 
> However, if this result is anything close to what could happen in the 
> game, it does not bode well for Black.  No pawns are queened at all.  
> However White nabs Black's two b pawns at the cost of White's g pawn 
> and leaves Black all bottled up on the back ranks.  The advantage is 
> all White.
> 
> 28. h4    b5
> 29. h5    Qe2
> 30. Qf5+  Kc7
> 
> This intervening check which at first seemingly serves no purpose 
> does pay off for White later on.
> 
> 31. Bxf4  Bxf4
> 32. Qxf4  Qxh5
> 33. Rc1   e6
> 
> Now it's me and Fritz from here on out.
> 
> 34. g4    Qg6
> 35. g5    Kd7
> 36. Kg2   b4
> 37. Rh1   b3
> 
> The pawn race is going full tilt, the Black King is trudging his way 
> back into the fray from c7, but what is that White Rook doing on h1?
> 
> 38. Rh6   Qg7
> 39. Qh4   Ke7
> 40. Rh7   Qg8
> 
> Now White shifts course 180 degrees.  At a time when White's drive to 
> Queen the g pawn appears stalled, he surrenders the g pawn for 
> seemingly nothing in return, and even exposes his King to a check for 
> good measure.
> 
> 41. g6    Qxg6+
> 42. Kh2   Qe8
> 
> Black doesn't any follow up checks against White's King thanks to 
> White King ducking out on a dark square.  However, Black must still 
> watch out for that pinned Knight on e7 which the White Queen is 
> longing to capture.  So the Black Queen retreats to protect the 
> Knight.  However White, like a good basketball player that can 
> dribble, pass or shoot, has more than one "threat" under his 
> sleeve.
> 
> 43. Qa4+  Kd8
> 44. Qa8+  Kd7
> 45. Qxb7+ Kd8
> 46. Qxb3  e5
> 
> And White has taken the two b pawns for the price of his one g pawn, 
> leaving Black all bottled up and on the defensive in the process.  
> The positional advantage appears decidedly in White's favor.
> 
> If anything like this could actually happen in the game, then 29... 
> Qe2 is to be avoided and 29... Qc4 appears the safer move.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> Regards, Steve B.



33 ..    Qh7
34 g4 ?! Qg6
35 g5 ?! b4!  
36 Qe3   e5
37 Kf1   Qh5
38 Qg3   b3
39 g6    b2
40 rb1   Qh1+
41 Qg1   Qh3+
42 Ke1   Qc3+
43 Kf1   Qd3+  And black wins

Pushing the g pawn is a double edged sword
which can lead to disaster. More likely
white would try to somehow tie black up before
pushing any pawns.

Don't you think that it was better to play f3 on the 28th move? 
(black made the move b5 instead).
I beg, the next move of Kasparov is 29.Rc1.
And what's YOUR opnion?

Ulf and others are convinced that after 29 h5, 29...Qe2!? loses.

My question, what about 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Qh3 Qe4!?
Isn't this better than 31..Qc2? If white plays 32. Qe6 now black can 
reply 32...f3!, and after 32. Qg4 Qh7 black is at least still playing.

Is 29...Qe2!? playable?

On Mon Aug 16 02:46:28, Martin Sims wrote:
> Ulf and others are convinced that after 29 h5, 29...Qe2!? loses.
> 
> My question, what about 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Qh3 Qe4!?
> Isn't this better than 31..Qc2? If white plays 32. Qe6 now black can 
> reply 32...f3!, and after 32. Qg4 Qh7 black is at least still playing.
> 
> Is 29...Qe2!? playable?
There are many good moves but only one best move.

Please see a couple postings below for my analysis...  and tell me if 
I'm stupid in it...

On Mon Aug 16 02:46:28, Martin Sims wrote:
> Ulf and others are convinced that after 29 h5, 29...Qe2!? loses.
> 
> My question, what about 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Qh3 Qe4!?
> Isn't this better than 31..Qc2? If white plays 32. Qe6 now black can 
> reply 32...f3!, and after 32. Qg4 Qh7 black is at least still playing.
> 
> Is 29...Qe2!? playable?

It's playable - which is why it's in the Smartchess FAQ but an 
improvement on Qh7 and the ensuing FAQ moves would be useful

hi ladies!! hee hee

On Mon Aug 16 14:17:24, Rene van den Broek wrote:
> The analysis are telling that after 29. ... b4  30. h6 Dc2  31. Lxf4 
> Pd8  32. Dh5  Lxf4  33. h7 Le5  34. Dxe5 dxe5  35. h8D Pc6  36. Dh5 
> white is better.
> 
> But is black really worse after 36. ... b3 ??
> 
> Suggestions.........

YES!  We must do something about whites Queen.  Our only hope is 
29...Qc4 and all the analysist agree.

R. Hinds

On Mon Aug 16 15:43:51, Rene van den Broek wrote:
> I wrote before
> The analysis are telling that after 29. ... b4  30. h6 Dc2  31. Lxf4 
> Pd8  32. Dh5  Lxf4  33. h7 Le5  34. Dxe5 dxe5  35. h8D Pc6  36. Dh5 
> white is better.
> 
> But is black really worse after 36. ... b3 ??
> 
> Suggestions.........
FAQ says after 36...b3 endgame will favor white. See FAQ for details.

F

Dear wiers on this board. Georg Jempty continiosly attack my name and 
calls me "gay". This hurts my dignity very much and I can not 
continue my analitical help in these circumstances. I can do nothing 
with other Fake Spiriev's either. They are dangerous and primitiv 
mans. Please ignore there posts. I can tell You that I made my steps 
to stop this was not sucseed as everything can be copied (even the 
e-mail and the host! ) I think microsoft and BBS should stop this 
site until they can not find out how to defend against Fakers. It is 
dangerous for everybody as everybody can write under everybody's name 
and nobody can show out was it real or not. This is dangerous and can 
hurt many peoples dignity - in this case my dignity .
Thank You for considering this serious problem.
Spiriev Peter Alain ,Budapest, Hungary. 
P.S :I can not continue my analyses here (This was there main aim and 
I see they succeded in this.) in these circumstances. Read 1st 2nd 
3rd 4th page all terrible hurting my name and imige. I think these 
are ill minded peples for whoom nothing is too expencive .

Spiriev Peter Alain, Hungary, Budapest.

kasp
8/1p1kpQ2/2np4/1p2b1BP/4qp2/8/5PP1/5RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Hiarcs 7.32:

™ (0.55): 29...Qc4 30.Qf8 b4 31.h6 b3 32.Qf5+ Kc7 33.h7 Bh8 34.Qxf4 
Qd3 35.Qe3 Qg6 36.Bxe7 b2 37.Qe1 Qxh7 38.Bg5 Be5 39.g3 

™ (0.66): 29...Qe2 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Qh3 Qe4 32.h6 Qg6 33.Qh4 f3 34.g3 
Qh7 35.Rc1 Kd8 

˜ (0.77): 29...b4 30.h6 Qd3 31.Bxf4 Nd8 32.Qh5 Bxf4 33.h7 Be5 34.Qxe5 
dxe5 35.h8Q Nc6 36.Qa8 Qb5 37.Rd1+ Nd4 

(panek, PII 300 mhz 40 mg hash 8/16/99)

Hi,

I think we have a big problem in our main line


29. h5 Qc4
30. Qf8 b4
31. h6 b3
32. Qf5+ e6
33. Qf7+ Kc8

I found

34. Rd1 b2
35. Qg6

the white plan is here to left the pawn on h6 and build later on a 
pawn/bishop fortress on g7

a critical point is also the square d3 where the white queen wants to 
go to.

Never think about moving white pwan to h7 because the white plan is 
to build later a pawn/bishop fortress.

Cheers Ulf

Someone suggested:

29...   Qc4
30.Qf8  b4
31.h6   b3
32.Qf5+ Qe6 ( or is there a better move?)

33.Qd4  Qg4
34.Qg6  seems to give White advantage.

Or, as usual, am I missing something?

I hate to break it to you Peter, but we told you to stop posting here 
weeks ago.
  You asked for money for your analyses, we collectively refused and 
asked you to stop asking.  You continued.  Then you insisted on 
writing lengthy posts like this one that have absolutlely nothing to 
do with chess, this particular game, Kasparov, or anything else 
that's even remotely relevant.  We told you once again to stop 
posting here, and once again you continued.  Then you began arguing 
with Brian McCarthy (I think) about who stole whose moves on this BBS.
  To be honest all of those involved with that crap should be ashamed 
of themselves.  You all acted irresponsibly like little third graders 
fighting over a candy bar.  No cares who thought of the moves first, 
or who wrote whom email.  At that point, people began to ridicule you 
and harass you.  But you know what Peter? No one cares anymore, in 
fact we're kind of enjoying it.  Because we told you to post strategy 
or leave, and you ignored us time and again.
  So don't blame Microsoft, don't blame the BBS readers, or the 
"Fake Spiriev's", BLAME ONLY YOURSELF.  If you are unable to 
post simple strategy concerns here, then you don't belong here and 
are getting what you deserve for your lack of respect.

On Mon Aug 16 16:30:40, Ulf wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I think we have a big problem in our main line
> 
> 
> 29. h5 Qc4
> 30. Qf8 b4
> 31. h6 b3
> 32. Qf5+ e6
> 33. Qf7+ Kc8
> 
> I found
> 
> 34. Rd1 b2
> 35. Qg6
> 
> the white plan is here to left the pawn on h6 and build later on a 
> pawn/bishop fortress on g7
> 
> a critical point is also the square d3 where the white queen wants to 
> go to.
> 
> Never think about moving white pwan to h7 because the white plan is 
> to build later a pawn/bishop fortress.
> 
> Cheers Ulf

Ulf - Take a deep breath.  Look at 35..Kb8 in response to your 
"big problem" move 35.Qg6.  Do you feel better now?

Generalmoe.

On Mon Aug 16 16:42:05, but what's our move after 33.Qd4 WJG wrote:
> Someone suggested:
> 
> 29...   Qc4
> 30.Qf8  b4
> 31.h6   b3
> 32.Qf5+ 


Here is the biggest moment of the game so far and we will see some 
variant of it, the question is after ...e6 or Kc7 does Re1 make a 
difference, there is a crushing sac on e5 to queen, but it doesn't 
seem to work, sine we have Qe4! and Qc1 to try and queen our pawn, 
the difference is that Kc7 costs a tempo, but queen to h8 will not be 
mate, although its hard to see that mattering, if Gary gets 2 queens!!

So sorry to say, the time for alternatives has come and gone, Qe2 may 
end up looking good, just like 26...Qe2 and b5 on the next move, but 
all the GM's who see the position say black is at least equal, and so 
do the computers. Lets see if this is true and if not why not.
We still have time to try Nd4 type defenses for sac draw etc. even if 
we see a hole in ...e6, but so far , as scary as it looks, my 
computer still likes black, even past an h8  queen junction



Qe6 ( or is there a better move?)
> 
> 33.Qd4  Qg4
> 34.Qg6  seems to give White advantage.
> 
> Or, as usual, am I missing something?

This line is supposed to be a "draw for black" with proper 
play.
I played white vs. my computer as black. Please show me the
"proper play."  If the world team wants to keep this proper 
play secret
to avoid helping GK, itÆs OK with me.  Just say so. Thank you.

29à..        Qc4?!
30. Qf5+     Qe6
31. Qxe6+    Kxe6
32.  g3!       fxg3
33.  fxg3    Bxg3
34.   h6      Be5
35.   h7       Bh8
36.   Rf8     Ne5
37. Rxh8     Nf3+
38.  Kf2      Nxg5
39.  Ke3      b4
40.   Kd4     d5
41.   Kd3     b6
42.   Kd4     b5
43.   Kd3     b3
44.   Kc3      b2
45.   Kxb2   d4
46.   Kb3    Nxh7
47.   Rxh7   Kd6
48.   Rh6+    e6
49.   Kb4     Kd5
50.   Kxb5    e5
51.   Rh5      d3
52.   Kb4    Kd4
53.   Rh4+    e4
54.   Kb3    Kd5
55.   Kc3    Ke5   (black would resign long ago,
                    but IÆm playing the ending 
                   down to the very clear R+K vs K end)
56.  Kd2     Kd4
57.  Rg4     Kd5
58.  Ke3      d2
59.  Kxd2   Kd4
60.  Rh4     Ke5
61   Ke3     Kf5
62.  Rxe4   resigns

29.....Qc4
30.Qh7 b4
31. h6   b3
32. Qf5+

You know that my english is not enough well so You are 
playing with words in a  tipical crafty mood. 
My  "proof" is here what kind of shameful attack You made 
again -without any base- 
http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?MondayAugust16199
91142pm.
If you read all these please pologise from me if you have enogh 
mankind in You.
Spiriev Peter Alain,Hungary,Budapest. 
you all like a little community but one time this community will fall 
apart because of these kind of dirty attacks you make and you are not 
even knowing who you attack. What you are doung is hurting a mans 
mind and dignity so do not be surprised if sometimes he will attack 
back and it will hurt I think much much more.I never thought I will 
tell this in my life but now I can understand Fischer much better. It 
is very sad to tell tom me as maybe You know who I am -but it is true 
now. Sorry. I hope my judgement will change sometimes but currently 
You are at lowest level. 
Sincerely Spiriev Peter Alain,Hungary Budapest.

 




Please read this site. I see You try to provoke me again. I never 
asked money for my analyses I asked respect but from primitive mans I 
do not need respect. 
I do not need respect from this BBS at all. 
I see what kind of peoples are here so I do not need any respect from 
them and not from You. If You dont interesting in truth I can not 
help. 
But probably You are all pitianer peoples who attack me before You 
shold see into Yourself. 

On Mon Aug 16 16:45:46, Corey wrote:
> I hate to break it to you Peter, but we told you to > weeks 
ago.stop posting here 

>   You asked for money for your analyses, we collectively refused and 
> asked you to stop asking.  You continued.  Then you insisted on 
> writing lengthy posts like this one that have absolutlely nothing to 
> do with chess, this particular game, Kasparov, or anything else 
> that's even remotely relevant.  We told you once again to stop 
> posting here, and once again you continued.  Then you began arguing 
> with Brian McCarthy (I think) about who stole whose moves on this BBS.
>   To be honest all of those involved with that crap should be ashamed 
> of themselves.  You all acted irresponsibly like little third graders 
> fighting over a candy bar.  No cares who thought of the moves first, 
> or who wrote whom email.  At that point, people began to ridicule you 
> and harass you.  But you know what Peter? No one cares anymore, in 
> fact we're kind of enjoying it.  Because we told you to post strategy 
> or leave, and you ignored us time and again.
>   So don't blame Microsoft, don't blame the BBS readers, or the 
> "Fake Spiriev's", BLAME ONLY YOURSELF.  If you are unable to 
> post simple strategy concerns here, then you don't belong here and 
> are getting what you deserve for your lack of respect.

On Mon Aug 16 17:11:55, Worried about 29.Qc4 wrote:
> 29.....Qc4
> 30.Qh7 b4
> 31. h6   b3
> 32. Qf5+

 Looks ok for Black! 32. ...Qe6, and White will have to exchange the 
queens without any gain at all, or move his queen back in a defending 
mode.  Black can activate the knight either forwardly on d4 or 
defensively via d8.

29....    Qc4
30.Qf8    b4
31.h6     b3
32.Qf5+   e6

Majority seems to think e6 is our best move and that White will 
continue with 33.Qf7+ but what is the answer to 33.Qg6

33.Qg6 b2
34.h7 seems to give advantage to Black.

Any comments?

%^)

Why do you keep participating in women-only competitions when you 
have Judith Polgar example in front of you?

The World.

UPDATED: Monday, August 16, 1999
(Yes, this is the second time posting this updated analysis... And it 
will be posted again, and again, before the world votes on Black's 
29th move... Because of the consequences following Black's 29th move.)

"28...b5 29.h5, after which Black will have two possible lines:
(A) 29...Qe2 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5 with an advantage 
for White. 
(B) 29...Qc4 30.Qf8! (30.Qf5+ Qe6) Qe2 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5, 
after which White is better off. Even if Black is worse off after 
either of these two lines, I think they represent our best chance to 
fight for a draw." - Etienne Bacrot

The above analysis (and comments) by Etienne Bacrot, inspired our 
small team to work hard on extensive analysis because Mr. Bacrot's 
statement "I think they represent our best chance to fight for a 
draw" is not sufficient for a positive conclusion.

UPDATE: Monday, August 16, 1999

Now the world apparently has a very serious dilemma to solve between 
two Queen moves: 29...Qe2! or 29...Qc4?! Why do I call this a 
dilemma? Because this is probably the most serious decision that the 
world players will make in this game.

"29...Qc4 30.Qf8! (30.Qf5+ Qe6) Qe2 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5, 
after which White is better off." - Etienne Bacrot 

Important to repeat: "29...Qc4, after which White is better 
off." - Etienne Bacrot

Next, we now have this extremely important statement in Mr. Danny 
King's commentary:

"As I see it, you have a choice between two quite different 
continuations:
the solid 29...Qe2, leading to a position giving Black drawing 
chances; or
a leap of faith with 29...Qc4, leading to random complications 
(though here
I would also say that Black cannot hope for more than a draw)." - 
Danny King

Important to repeat: 

"The solid (note "solid") 29...Qe2, leading to a position 
giving Black drawing chances; or a leap of faith (note "leap" 
and "faith") with 29...Qc4" - Danny King

Is the above statement by Mr. Danny King difficult to understand? If 
anyone does not understand, then clearly they cannot read! 29...Qe2! 
is "solid," while the alternative 29...Qc4?! is a 
"leap" into what?

It is my understanding that Irina Krush was also having a difficult 
time (at one time) concerning the decision on the Queen move to e2 or 
c4. I think that I recall that she first liked 29...Qc4, and then 
"switched" preferring 29...Qe2. Now, she has apparently 
"switched" again and prefers 29...Qc4. What or whom 
influenced her decision to select 29...Qc4? Please do not inform me 
that it was this Peter Spiriev again. Please... What a joke! While I 
am on the subject of Peter Spiriev, the following is an open 
challenge to you Mr. Spiriev: [Whoever you are (or think you are). 
Fischer? Naw, can't be true. Hitler? Well maybe, because his body was 
never found!] 

I will play the Black side in this current position (after Kasparov's 
29.h5) and you Mr. Spiriev will play the White side. Tournament 
conditions (no computers) with the time clocks starting at one-hour 
for each side to the 40th move. I think that this would be a fair 
time control! After the 40th move time control, then one-hour for 
each side to the 60th, 80th (if you last that long) and so on. 
Conditions: You Mr. Spiriev MUST WIN with White (since this is what 
you have proclaimed the outcome will be in all variations from this 
current position). I, on the otherhand, will only have to DRAW with 
Black. Prize Fund: Since you seem to be a money "hungry" 
mongrel, the winner of these conditions will receive $25,000.00 from 
the loser. Are you game? You have my e-mail address... Let me know 
before the world makes its 29th move for Black. Let's see if you will 
accept this challenge and put your money (and your supposed chess 
talent) where your "big mouth" is... Or, SHUT UP! Please... 
And stop influencing young Grandmaster Irina Krush with your 
"faulty" analysis. (By the way, I would most certainly back 
GM Krush in a chess match against you anytime! Tournament conditions, 
of course, and also with complete satisfaction that such a match 
would not be "fixed" beforehand). 

Back to the most important and serious matter at hand. It is now up 
to the world players to vote for 29...Qe2! ("The solid 
draw!") or 29...Qc4?! (The "leap" into uncertainty!). The 
choice is ours... And I certainly pray that the world elects 
29...Qe2! (This crucial time... For a change! :)

Note to Irina Krush: Which Queen move would you make (e2 or c4) if 
this were the position in the last round of a tournament, where first 
place was at stake if you lost, and a draw would secure first place? 
Would you still play 29...Qc4?! and risk falling, finishing in second 
place? It would be very difficult for me to accept a "yes" 
answer to this question from you.

I am submitting the following analysis again, because of the serious 
consequences that might follow if the world elects 29...Qc4. And no, 
I am not going to waste my time by submitting analysis on 29...Qc4, 
because it is inferior. Besides, all of you have plenty of analysis 
to study on this alternative Queen move anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------
NOTE: This entire analysis was submitted before Mr. Kasparov's 29th 
Move (29.h5).

We all feel that the following analysis shows that Black can survive 
with a draw in all ensuing variations... Yes, I am the first to admit 
that I am astonished (and very pleased) that we have successfully (in 
our collective opinions) found a miracle line for Black that ensures 
a drawn game.

Analysis: After 28...b5!  29.h5= ... 

Symbols used: [= Even]  [% Unclear]  [=> Slight Advantage]
[@ Winning Chances]

(A-main line) 29...Qe2!

(B) 29...Qc4!?
(B1) 30.Qf5+ Kc7% (30...Qe6?!%)
(B2) 30.Qf8 Qe2 31.Qf5+ (31.Bxf4!? Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5%) 31...Kc7 
32.Bxf4 Bxf4 33.Qxf4 Qxh5=, with hope of transposition to main line 
(A) analysis maybe? %

(A-main line) 30.Qf5+ ...

(A1) 30.Bh6!? b4 31.Rc1 Bd4 32.Qf5+ Kc7 33.Qxf4 Qxh5 34.Qxd4 Qxh6=

(A2) 30.Bxf4!? Bxf4 31.Qxf4 Qxh5 32.Qd2 e6 33.Rd1 Qe5=

(A3) 30.Qg6!? f3!? 31.Qf5+ Kc7 32.gxf3 Nd4 33.Rc1+ Kb6 34.Qf8 Nxf3+! 
35.Kh1 Nxg5! Forcing Kasparov to concede to a drawn game! 36.Qd8+ Ka7 
(36...Ka6 37.Qa8+ Kb6 38.Qd8+= repetition of position is forced) 
37.Qa5+ Kb8 38.Qd8+= etc.

(A-main line) 30...Kc7 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5

"It is very difficult to visualize and count on Kasparov to allow 
his precious h-Pawn to fall, but I see no other way for him to 
extricate his position in order to activate White's Rook." - 
GM2654 (Who, like myself, wishes to remain anonymous).

Another colleague stated: "In addition, White's g-Pawn has the 
potential of becoming a serious and dangerous threat in the future, 
but I do not think that it will become powerful enough to score the 
point, and Black should hold with a draw." (Statement after 
Today's analysis. - GM2590, who also wishes to remain anonymous 
during this fiasco). 

(A-main line) 33.Rc1 Qd5 

(33...Qe2=%, 33...Qg6=%, 33...Kb8!?=%) 

(A-main line) 34.Kf1 ...

(A1) 34.g4!? (Hope Kasparov sees this mirage! :) 34...e5! 35.Qf6 b4! 
36.g5!? Qd3! => 

(Not 36...b3? 37.Rb1 Nd4 38.g6 @)

(A1) continued: 37.Kg2! b3! 38.Qf7+ Kb6 39.Qf3 Qb5! 

(Not 39...Qxf3+ 40.Kxf3 =>) 

(A1) continued: 40.g6!? Nd4!=, and Black should survive with at least 
a draw. However, one slight slip in this position by Kasparov, would 
allow Black to realize a miracle win!

(A-main line) 34...e5 35.Qg4!? Qd3+

(35...Kb6!? 36.Qd1 Qe6% or, 36...Nd4%)

(A-main line) 36.Qe2 ...

(36.Ke1, or 36.Kg1, 36...d5 =>)

(A-main line) 36...Qh7!=

(36...Qxe2+?! 37.Kxe2%; 36...Qb3, or 36...Qa3, 37.Qe3%)

(A-main line) 37.Kg1 Kb6!=

(37...Qh6!? 38.Rd1 Nd4 39.Qa2%)

(A-main line) 38.Qe3+ ...

(38.f4 Nd4 39.Qe3 Qh5!= transposition to main line analysis) 

(A-main line) 38...Nd4!?

Might not be a good idea to continue hoping for a miracle win if we 
make it this far. (38...Kc7= putting the question to White 39.Qe2!? 
draw by repetition?)

(A-main line) 39.f4! Qh5

(39...Qg7 40.fxe5 dxe5=. Or, 39...Qh6 40.g3=)

(A-main line) 40.fxe5 dxe5=

(40...Qxe5!? 41.Kf2% or 41.Qxe5% or 41.Qf2%)

(A-main line) 41.Re1% Qg6! 42.Qe4 Qg5!
And the world should survive with a miracle draw no matter what the 
World Champion attempts from here! :)

(But not 42...Qxe4? 43.Rxe4 Nc6, leading to a text-book ending giving 
White winning chances after 44.g4! =>@).

Evaluation: 
Key for Black is to avoid exchanging Queens, unless, of course, 
Kasparov finds a way to force the Queens exchange. Although it 
appears that he will not be able to find a way to "force" the 
Queens exchange. Conclusion: Draw in all variations. However, 
remember that this "conclusion" is based only upon the 
"possible" positions presented in the analysis lines. 
Variations in chess are endless. Therefore, it is expected (and 
probably "predictable") that Mr. Kasparov will play 
"unexpected" moves that have not been foreseen by anyone in 
their analysis lines, including all of the world computers 
calculations of this game also.   

We sincerely hope that this analysis will help the world achieve a 
draw... Or, maybe some bright young star will find a miracle winning 
move for Black hidden somewhere in the world's analysis lines!

Go World :) Let's at least achieve a draw in this game... While the 
opportunity can be taken in this current position! My vote will be 
(of course :) 29...Qe2! and "hope" it becomes 
"President!" However, unfortunately, the election again 
appears to be landslide for 29...Qc4?!

Sincerely,
David GM2505

PS - I certainly hope that we have not overlooked any hidden dangers 
lurking in White's position. Mr. Kasparov is tenacious... Please 
remember this world!

One final comment on 29...Qc4?! This alternative will allow Mr. 
Kasparov to keep his "precious" h-Pawn... Are we (the world 
players) certain that we want to have to contend with White's h-Pawn 
in the future?

(Please forgive any "typo" errors in the event that any are 
discovered. Also, this analysis will be "updated" when and 
"if" it becomes necessary to do so).

On Mon Aug 16 17:38:59, but how do we answer 33.Qg6 WJG wrote:
> 29....    Qc4
> 30.Qf8    b4
> 31.h6     b3
> 32.Qf5+   e6
> 
> Majority seems to think e6 is our best move and that White will 
> continue with 33.Qf7+ but what is the answer to 33.Qg6
> 
> 33.Qg6 b2
> 34.h7 seems to give advantage to Black.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
You mean advantage white?

How about:
33...Nd4!?
34.Qf7+ Kc6
35.Bd8 b5
36.Rd1 Qc2 = ?

May need improvement...

F

I wouldnt Worry about GK doing this.. but if he DOES .... thats OK ! 

#################################################
#################################################

29. h5,  Qc4
30. Qf8, f3  This is a lousy move for white.Read on.

31. g3, Qg4 
     if  gxf3, Bh2+,KxB, QxROOK !Don't count  on this.
     if Qxf3, same thing--Rook for Bishop
     White starts attack here or looses chance since   
     W.Bf4, stops it all.

32. Qh6, Nd4
        W. must defend both B & hpawn this way.
        B. finally brings in Horsie to play too.
        Not needed at c6 now...

33. Bf4,   Nf5 a  GOOD attempt to stop the threat, 
            Bl. Just threatens  W.Q.
           (We need to hold this position)

34. Qg6, Nh6 
          W. must try this to stay alive now.
          B defends Queen & offers Night
          If lucky-QxNh6-- but W SHOULD tradeQ's here,           
which is ok for us....but,

35. Qxh6, Bxf4 -  its a good time for this

36. Qxf4,Qxh5  - B Likely gains the BIGGEST plus here

37. g4, Qd5 - B keeps a line on f3 as long as possible

38. g5, Qe5     What else can W do now???
           B offers another  Q trade, or Pawn trade...            Let 
it be White's choice.

No Problem after this....
                ################################################
##############################################################
Well, thats IT !! 
I Really Dont think GK would like this arrangement.
Maybe you can find better moves somewhere...... LET ME KNOW!

This is a good  position for Black,  So I dont think GK will even 
BOTHER playing Qf8 at this time...  so dont worry about that, DK ! 
Its a Real  BUM's  move.

        IIIIIIII  
      (  O    0  )
            >
         \____/
            )

SNAGGIN'

On Mon Aug 16 17:46:21, if you dare wrote:
> Why do you keep participating in women-only competitions when you 
> have Judith Polgar example in front of you?
> 
> The World.
Wasn't her last competition the US Juniors, and didn't she beat a 
bunch of guys there?

F

Hi World,

I actually do not see the point of the question. You could also ask 
Kasparov why he played in the junior World Championship when he was 
young. This event was/is also restricted (by age) and certainly does 
not include the best players.

Irina does play strong (male) grandmasters on a regular basis - so 
"World" what is your point ??????????????

Volker

Some worries about the mainline should be illiminated in this 
analyse. Please read:

29.h5 Qc4 
30.Qf8 b4 
31.h6 b3 
32.Qf5+ e6
 33.Qf7+ Kc8 
34.Qg6 b2 
35.Re1 Ross Aman / Plodd (THE SAME POS ARRISE AFTER 34.Re1 b2 35.Qg6)
35...Kb8! STENI (NOT QB1 AT A  FORCED PACE THAT GIVES WHITE ADVANTAGE 
)
36.h7 Ka7 
37.Qb1 Bh8 AND THE POSITION IS CONSOLIDATED MORE ANALYSE LATER

steni

On Mon Aug 16 17:46:21, if you dare wrote:
> Why do you keep participating in women-only competitions when you 
> have Judith Polgar example in front of you?
> 
> The World.

Irina Krush's only scheduled women-only tournament in 1999 is:

1999 Women's U-20 (World Junior) Championship

This year she has played in

San Francisco (made IM norm) - was only woman
Hampstead Invitational - was only woman

She will play in the 1999 FIDE U-18 BOYS World Championship (she is 
the #1 player in USA U-18 either gender).

This year she has played matches against GM Walter Browne, GM Tal 
Shaked and GM Lubomir Ftacnik.

In January 2000, she will play in the Category 13 Hastings 
Invitaional tournament - only woman.

She has made at least 4 WIM norms and 2 WGM norms and has declined 
all of them, as she only wants IM and GM titles.

Your research on the career of Irina Krush is misinformed.

On Mon Aug 16 17:38:59, but how do we answer 33.Qg6 WJG wrote:
> 29....    Qc4
> 30.Qf8    b4
> 31.h6     b3
> 32.Qf5+   e6
> 
> Majority seems to think e6 is our best move and that White will 
> continue with 33.Qf7+ but what is the answer to 33.Qg6
> 
> 33.Qg6 b2
> 34.h7 seems to give advantage to Black.
> 
> Any comments?
> 

33. ... Nb4! and black is fine:

34. Rb1! Qd3
35. Qxd3 Nxd3
36. Kf1 b5 and it's equal.

Cheers,
DBC

fill in the blanks:
# of people that got a draw from GK _____
# of people that got beat by GK     _____
# of people that will lie about beating GK ____

hey there are no wrong answers but i don"t like to lose, and i 
don't lie.

after 29.h5 b4 30.h6 Qc2 31.h7 b3 32.bxf4 (Re1 leads to draw 32...b2 
33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 draws) b2!! 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 
(Qb3 is same)
Analysis by Hiarcs 7.32:

= (0.00): 35...Nf3+ 36.gxf3 Qg6+ 37.Kh2 Qh5+ 38.Kg2 Qg5+ 39.Kh2 Qf4+ 
40.Kg2 Qg5+ 

= (0.00): 35...Qe4 36.Qb5+ Ke6 37.Qxb2 Nf3+ 38.gxf3 Qg6+ 39.Kh2 Qh5+ 
40.Kg2 Qg5+ 41.Kh2 Qh5+ 

(Panek, PII 300 mhz 40 mg hash 3,4,some 5 EGTB 8/16/99)


  try it

Ed Panek

Oh great computer guru god of northern Ohio (If I read your ISP 
correctly), what does hiarcs say about lines beginning Qc4, since 
that's what we're likely to play.  
BobE,
patzer of Southern Ohio



On Mon Aug 16 18:07:17, Ed Panek wrote:
> after 29.h5 b4 30.h6 Qc2 31.h7 b3 32.bxf4 (Re1 leads to draw 32...b2 
> 33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 draws) b2!! 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 
> (Qb3 is same)
> Analysis by Hiarcs 7.32:
> 
> = (0.00): 35...Nf3+ 36.gxf3 Qg6+ 37.Kh2 Qh5+ 38.Kg2 Qg5+ 39.Kh2 Qf4+ 
> 40.Kg2 Qg5+ 
> 
> = (0.00): 35...Qe4 36.Qb5+ Ke6 37.Qxb2 Nf3+ 38.gxf3 Qg6+ 39.Kh2 Qh5+ 
> 40.Kg2 Qg5+ 41.Kh2 Qh5+ 
> 
> (Panek, PII 300 mhz 40 mg hash 3,4,some 5 EGTB 8/16/99)
> 
> 
>   try it
> 
> Ed Panek

L. Nispeanu gives nothing away.  A. Khalifman has his hands full.

On Mon Aug 16 17:38:59, but how do we answer 33.Qg6 WJG wrote:
> 29....    Qc4
> 30.Qf8    b4
> 31.h6     b3
> 32.Qf5+   e6

****************************************************

WHAT ?????   Pawn to e6???  
Madness I tell you! 
Because.....
33. Qf7+, Kc8
34. Qe8+, Kc7 (if Nd8, Bxd8, and next move Bf6+               
(discovered check)and captures B bishop
35. Qf6+, Kb6??   We're staying on the run now...
36. Be3+, Bd4   to save ourselves?
37. Rc1 and now what??ask nicely if we can please win?

This is too uncertain to go with that pawn to e6 move.
DEFINATELY Qe6 is FAR BETTER!


***************************************************

> Majority seems to think e6 is our best move and that White will 
> continue with 33.Qf7+ but what is the answer to 33.Qg6
> 
> 33.Qg6 b2
> 34.h7 seems to give advantage to Black.
> 
> Any comments?
>

On Mon Aug 16 18:11:39, Snaggin' wrote:
> On Mon Aug 16 17:38:59, but how do we answer 33.Qg6 WJG wrote:
> > 29....    Qc4
> > 30.Qf8    b4
> > 31.h6     b3
> > 32.Qf5+   e6
> 
> ****************************************************
> 
> WHAT ?????   Pawn to e6???  
> Madness I tell you! 
> Because.....
> 33. Qf7+, Kc8
> 34. Qe8+, Kc7 (if Nd8, Bxd8, and next move Bf6+               
> (discovered check)and captures B bishop
> 35. Qf6+, Kb6??   We're staying on the run now...
Q from e8 to f6 illegal (Q not Knighted)

F
> 36. Be3+, Bd4   to save ourselves?
> 37. Rc1 and now what??ask nicely if we can please win?
> 
> This is too uncertain to go with that pawn to e6 move.
> DEFINATELY Qe6 is FAR BETTER!
> 
> 
> ***************************************************
> 
> > Majority seems to think e6 is our best move and that White will 
> > continue with 33.Qf7+ but what is the answer to 33.Qg6
> > 
> > 33.Qg6 b2
> > 34.h7 seems to give advantage to Black.
> > 
> > Any comments?
> >

Irina will show us how Black will win with Black! 
Just as she promised it. I think and thinked always the  the opposite 
as she and Smartchess. I think black is lost here . But they promised 
to win so I am waiting for show me how they will win.   
I think they (Smartchess and Irina Krush are are lost with black)
See my analyses where I prove I think why Black is lost

http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?MondayAugust16199

 because of  very bad moves proposed earlyer by Irina Krush and 
Smartchess (always You played what they proposed!!)

Irina always told we have good winning chanches!
Let's  see how Smartchess and Irina will win this game
as they promised it.
I think this posotion of World (Black's) is dead lost!

I hope I could help with this detailed analyses.
Best to You. God save Poorchess's Queen!
I see anonimus  nobodies feeling strong themselfes.
 posts 
Why dont'you give your real name to Your "strong" opinions? 
At move 15..., When I told 15...Rd8! or 15...b5! will win nobody 
belived me. Most You all chosed Irina'sd moves as You (ALWAYS!)voted 
for Irina's and Smartchess's move so faar. I see this is Your game. 
So why dont You win it, as You offered it when You played Your 
15...Ra8?(bad move)
Your 16...Ne4 (bad move) Your 18...f5? (bad move) Your 21...Rxa4? 
(bad move)
So I wish to see the promised win, as most of You told what an idiot 
I am, that I told these moves wre wrong.
Prove that You were right, and I was wrong. Show Your winning line 
finally Irina, and Smartchess! I just want to see What You promised 
to everybody, when You told that I'm "idiot" to tell we will 
losing with those bad moves, You made. I tell now too, Black will 
lose because of Your previous bad moves. My analyses are at Russian 
Gransdmaster's chess site. So prove me wrong, show You were right 
show the winning line for Black. 
Irina and Smartchess do not make secret from Your winning lines! 
Publish them righ here right now!
Or You still holding back Your promised winning line?
O.K. I will wait to the end of game. But show How You promised to win 
with 15...Ra8? I just to see that. 
Why is it bad if I want to see there proof that I was wrong when I 
promised 15...Rd8! or 15...b5
I want to see Irina's and Smartchess winning line just as they 
promied this. (I have there early promises and Your early promises 
supporters of Irina. I will publish here later What You Brian Mc 
Carty and Blue Danube (alias Georg Jempty US consulats'shame ) or 
Plain English (Andy Bacic) promised to World team with 15...Ra8 You 
all promised win. (I have Your promises and I will publish them here 
to BBS to everybody's enyoyment. You told me 1000 times the most 
dirty attacks when I proposed 15...Rd8! or 15...b5! and Irina and 
Smartchess were with You as they never defended me from Your dirty 
attacks. So they agreed 
with You that after 15...Ra8 You will win. So I just ask Show me Your 
(Iria's Smartchess and here supporters ) Show me Your winning line 
for Black just as You promised so many times!
Sincerely , Spiriev Peter Alain Budapest Hungary

On Mon Aug 16 18:10:16, BobE wrote:
HEHE well what part of southern Ohio are you from? Im from Cleveland  
 home of GM Yermolinsky  and burning rivers...anyways Qc4 ends up in 
a long endgame i havent analyzed yet

Ed


> Oh great computer guru god of northern Ohio (If I read your ISP 
> correctly), what does hiarcs say about lines beginning Qc4, since 
> that's what we're likely to play.  
> BobE,
> patzer of Southern Ohio
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon Aug 16 18:07:17, Ed Panek wrote:
> > after 29.h5 b4 30.h6 Qc2 31.h7 b3 32.bxf4 (Re1 leads to draw 32...b2 
> > 33.Bxe7 b1Q 34.Bf6+ Ne7 draws) b2!! 33.Qa2 Qxh7 34.Bxe5 Nxe5 35.Qxb2 
> > (Qb3 is same)
> > Analysis by Hiarcs 7.32:
> > 
> > = (0.00): 35...Nf3+ 36.gxf3 Qg6+ 37.Kh2 Qh5+ 38.Kg2 Qg5+ 39.Kh2 Qf4+ 
> > 40.Kg2 Qg5+ 
> > 
> > = (0.00): 35...Qe4 36.Qb5+ Ke6 37.Qxb2 Nf3+ 38.gxf3 Qg6+ 39.Kh2 Qh5+ 
> > 40.Kg2 Qg5+ 41.Kh2 Qh5+ 
> > 
> > (Panek, PII 300 mhz 40 mg hash 3,4,some 5 EGTB 8/16/99)
> > 
> > 
> >   try it
> > 
> > Ed Panek

Note: the reference points used here are our (E3d etc.,) points.  We 
have so many lines and branches, and analysis "superimposed", 
that the letters may or may not coorespond to yours. Just find the 
mutual positions in your lines.  We differ in move 31. in our 
analysis for white currently. We site 31.Re1 as follows:  
29.h5,Qc4,30.Qf8,b4,31.Re1,b3,32.and only now 
Qf5+,Kc7,33.h6,b2,34.h7,e6,35.Qg6,Qc1
36.Qb1,Qc3.37.Qe4.....

E3d231114 (ff. E3d2311141, and 11142)

E3d2311141

37à..d5 38. Qb1 white plus.
37à..f3  38. g3 Nb4, Rf1, Qb3. Qxe5 (Bf4, 
Bh8,Qb1,Nd3?,Bxd6!,Kb6,Rd1,Nc1Rxc1,bxc=R+,Qxc1 etc.,)
                dxe5,h=Q,b=Q,Qxe5,Kc6,Rxb1,Qxb1,Kh2,Qf5,Qc3+,Kb5,Qg7 
(Be7),Qd5,Be3,Nd3,g4~
37à..Nd4

These lines were done super (too) fast yesterday, so no chance to  
dissect.
Nd4 have not analyzed yet.

From now on we will post with our database reference numbers for 
quick look-up and editing (for us)
others simply give yours, so we can document for easy mutual 
reference.

Thank you, Chessmasterone Analysts.

Your like that dog on the Little Rascals, "Petey", the one 
with the bullseye on his eye.

Heel, Petey, Heel

On Mon Aug 16 18:11:33, GENDER SEPARATIST !!!! wrote:
> GET IT AGAIN?
> 
> THE WORLD.

Actually, I don't get the point again. Who is the "we" in 
"we are run by a gender separatist?" Maybe it is just 
pluralis majestatis since you sign as "The World."

If you think that there are more "victims" than yourself I 
would like to remind you that Irina is just making proposals for the 
World's move (well, not your move in particular but the world in 
"Kasparov vs The World"). If you disagree with her 
suggestions feel free to vote for another move.

I don't feel monopolized by Irina and, as I said, don't get the point 
what the fact that she is a woman should have to do with that.

Seems to me that you are the one who has actually a problem with that.

Volker

About who stole whose move.  Pathetic.

Both 29..Qc4 and 29..Qe2 are good moves.  I chose the latter.  
Goodnight.

Generalmoe.

Peter,

Take a deep breath and re-read the words and tone in your message 
which is directed to a 15-year-old girl.  She is a child under the 
laws of her country.  Are these words you are proud of?

You claim to be a successful business man and a manager of 
world-class athletes.  You are 29 years old.  Yet your postings to a 
child reflect a terrible attitude and lack of maturity for who you 
say you are.  

Let me give you an analogy.  When an orange is squeezed, orange juice 
comes out because that's what is inside.  It seems that when you are 
'squeezed' a lot of anger and hosility comes out.  As an adult we all 
face people every day who 'squeeze' us.  It is a measure of YOUR 
character how you react.

While a small number of people have said unpleasant things to you it 
is the content of your postings which have alienated the vast 
majority of people on this BBS.  Nobody came to this BBS with an 
agenda to embarass or hurt you but that has been the result because 
of the way you have behaved.  You need to ask yourself why you are 
the target of so much hostility?

Please think about the game, ignore the messages that have gone on in 
the past and just post solid analysis without the emotion or 
unecessary comments.  If you do this you will win new friends.

Ash



On Mon Aug 16 18:17:04, Spiriev tells:Irina will win as she pro wrote:
> Irina will show us how Black will win with Black! 
> Just as she promised it. I think and thinked always the  the opposite 
> as she and Smartchess. I think black is lost here . But they promised 
> to win so I am waiting for show me how they will win.   
> I think they (Smartchess and Irina Krush are are lost with black)
> See my analyses where I prove I think why Black is lost
> 
> http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/discus/messages/53/70.html?MondayAugust16199
> 
>  because of  very bad moves proposed earlyer by Irina Krush and 
> Smartchess (always You played what they proposed!!)
> 
> Irina always told we have good winning chanches!
> Let's  see how Smartchess and Irina will win this game
> as they promised it.
> I think this posotion of World (Black's) is dead lost!
> 
> I hope I could help with this detailed analyses.
> Best to You. God save Poorchess's Queen!
> I see anonimus  nobodies feeling strong themselfes.
>  posts 
> Why dont'you give your real name to Your "strong" opinions? 
> At move 15..., When I told 15...Rd8! or 15...b5! will win nobody 
> belived me. Most You all chosed Irina'sd moves as You (ALWAYS!)voted 
> for Irina's and Smartchess's move so faar. I see this is Your game. 
> So why dont You win it, as You offered it when You played Your 
> 15...Ra8?(bad move)
> Your 16...Ne4 (bad move) Your 18...f5? (bad move) Your 21...Rxa4? 
> (bad move)
> So I wish to see the promised win, as most of You told what an idiot 
> I am, that I told these moves wre wrong.
> Prove that You were right, and I was wrong. Show Your winning line 
> finally Irina, and Smartchess! I just want to see What You promised 
> to everybody, when You told that I'm "idiot" to tell we will 
> losing with those bad moves, You made. I tell now too, Black will 
> lose because of Your previous bad moves. My analyses are at Russian 
> Gransdmaster's chess site. So prove me wrong, show You were right 
> show the winning line for Black. 
> Irina and Smartchess do not make secret from Your winning lines! 
> Publish them righ here right now!
> Or You still holding back Your promised winning line?
> O.K. I will wait to the end of game. But show How You promised to win 
> with 15...Ra8? I just to see that. 
> Why is it bad if I want to see there proof that I was wrong when I 
> promised 15...Rd8! or 15...b5
> I want to see Irina's and Smartchess winning line just as they 
> promied this. (I have there early promises and Your early promises 
> supporters of Irina. I will publish here later What You Brian Mc 
> Carty and Blue Danube (alias Georg Jempty US consulats'shame ) or 
> Plain English (Andy Bacic) promised to World team with 15...Ra8 You 
> all promised win. (I have Your promises and I will publish them here 
> to BBS to everybody's enyoyment. You told me 1000 times the most 
> dirty attacks when I proposed 15...Rd8! or 15...b5! and Irina and 
> Smartchess were with You as they never defended me from Your dirty 
> attacks. So they agreed 
> with You that after 15...Ra8 You will win. So I just ask Show me Your 
> (Iria's Smartchess and here supporters ) Show me Your winning line 
> for Black just as You promised so many times!
> Sincerely , Spiriev Peter Alain Budapest Hungary
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

test

.

On Mon Aug 16 19:24:39, Dubravko Mazur wrote:
> test

So, do we pass or fail?

Hi world and now for something ompletely different:
has anyone investigated simply advancing our b pawn to b3 letting his 
queen take it from f7 while our queen is still on e4 (ie not lost a 
tempo going to c2) and then counterattacking with Nd4 along these 
interesting lines

 h5 b4
 h6 b3 !?
 Qxb3 Nd4  (note Q on e4 protects b2 pawn)
            if qxb3 not played we advance to b2
 Qh3+ e6   (e6 just one option but not K to 8th rank)
 h7   f3    (or option of Nf5 to consolidate)
 h8(Q) Ne2+!! surprise surprise
 Kh1  fxg2+ (kh1 forced as our B still on e5)
  EITHER 
Qxg2  Qxg2+
 Kxg2  Bxh8
 leaving us with BN3p v RB1p endgame (retained bishops,no doubled 
pawns must be a reasonable option)
  OR
Kh2 fxc1(=N)+ with
lots of other interesting possibilities which even win for us in some 
variations 
 
 Please refute or correct oversight(s). Have fun

On Mon Aug 16 19:23:07, tahiv wrote:
> Fritz 5.32 suggests at
> http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/gu/43114.asp
> 
> that 33...Nd4 (FAQ) is not the best response to
> 
> 29.h5    Qc4 (too late to change vote outcome now!)
> 30.Qf5+  Qe6 (only workable answer in FAQ)
> 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6
> 32.g4    

32...fxg3 transposes to 32.g3 fxg3, which is fine for Black.

I moved e4 to c4.  We end up with a much better position than GK. 
GO WORLD!!!!

29.h5    Qc4
30.Qf8   b4
31.h6    b3
32,Qf5+

Will our answer be Qe6 or pawn e6 or something else.

On Mon Aug 16 19:33:01, MJGrist wrote:

OK lets see this Grist attack worked out, it is certainly novel in 
this situation and we have a pawn to spare and still have many 
technical draws to aim for.  Run a few lines out, no one knows it 
like you now. I have to sort these new Crafty tries 1st. Maybe later.
Thanks


> Hi world and now for something ompletely different:
> has anyone investigated simply advancing our b pawn to b3 letting his 
> queen take it from f7 while our queen is still on e4 (ie not lost a 
> tempo going to c2) and then counterattacking with Nd4 along these 
> interesting lines
> 
>  h5 b4
>  h6 b3 !?
>  Qxb3 Nd4  (note Q on e4 protects b2 pawn)
>             if qxb3 not played we advance to b2
>  Qh3+ e6   (e6 just one option but not K to 8th rank)
>  h7   f3    (or option of Nf5 to consolidate)
>  h8(Q) Ne2+!! surprise surprise
>  Kh1  fxg2+ (kh1 forced as our B still on e5)
>   EITHER 
> Qxg2  Qxg2+
>  Kxg2  Bxh8
>  leaving us with BN3p v RB1p endgame (retained bishops,no doubled 
> pawns must be a reasonable option)
>   OR
> Kh2 fxc1(=N)+ with
> lots of other interesting possibilities which even win for us in some 
> variations 
>  
>  Please refute or correct oversight(s). Have fun

> >  h5 b4
> >  h6 b3 !?
> >  Qxb3 Nd4  (note Q on e4 protects b2 pawn)
> >             if qxb3 not played we advance to b2

I looked at it a while ago and rejected it because
of 32.f3

Sorry, for forgeting to mention that we'll have 6 days to study our 
line. 





On Mon Aug 16 19:36:42, ANSWER 32.QF5  (if it goes that way WJG wrote:
> 29.h5    Qc4
> 30.Qf8   b4
> 31.h6    b3
> 32,Qf5+
> 
> Will our answer be Qe6 or pawn e6 or something else.

Spiriev would never tell this story like that.  They were exposed on 
the racist, nationalistsic lines or just got bored with them and now 
want to try stirring up sexism  as their next way to draw attention 
away from the bad things they do.  they are found out and not very 
good at this game anymore.  DO NOT REPLY.

On Mon Aug 16 19:05:59, Spiriev tells Good point! But I won't p wrote:
> I tell You something. One of my fellow (very talented chessplayer an 
> International master ,Anka Emil of Hungary told me how she likes to 
> play with woman in chess. I could not understnd it why because here 
> in hungary womans are extremly beutiful and also chessplayers are 
> quite beutiful. Once  in 1988 I played on an Open tournament at 
> Balatonbereny. From the  crowd wiewrs I saw too many beutiful womans 
> looking at me. They were beutifully dressed as it was springtime. 
> They all were (about 20) very very sexy in there dresses even the 
> organizer woman  was very much sexy and she also lokked at me with 
> very big strage eyes. So suddenly I saw they all looking at my 
> "game". I had a very good position against Romanyishin at the 
> third round ( I had a winnng position with Black in very few moves 
> about 20 moves against this supergrandmaster that time and All 
> Russian soviet champion. I played a novelity in the opening and his 
> reaction for some reason was very unusual and very bad. But I noticed 
> that he alwas looked around before 20th move and did not see too much 
> from the board happenings  I was wondering what is happening. After 
> 21st move he suddenly started to concentrate very well in a very 
> difficult position and never ever looked up.
> He has not good feet but he always likes to walk between moves. But 
> now he stopped walking too!   
>  At one point I noticed he loked around (only once and for very very 
> short time) and laughed a big  when started to concentrate again. I 
> did not understood why he loughed. Only after the game I knew why he 
> loughed so big. Around 20th move the  beutiful womans happend to be 
> always there where I looked.I turned around, everywhere nicer and 
> nicer womand around our table and they came closer and closer every 
> time and it seemed to me they all loked at me. O.K. I'am a nansome 
> man I knew always but not That hansome.  But Romanyishin never looked 
> up not even a second. At 30th move (already in a slightly wors 
> position I offered Romanyishin a draw. He looked up and happily 
> sayed. "I accept it" but he added with wide smile "I 
> never made a draw from such a bad position my friend and plus  adding 
> that You are very attractive young boy from Persia and has six  wifes 
> plus owns three airplanes and 25 Mercedes it was a specially 
> interesting game to me."
> Got it?
> This is I know about  "woman's competition." I participated 
> in once time in my life.  I think I have no chance not even make a 
> draw in hungary against womans after that experiance. 
> And I can not even tell them I sold all of my wifes.  
> Very best to You, Spiriev Peter Alain, 
> Budapest, Hungary  
>              
> 
> 
> On Mon Aug 16 18:28:16, WIN TITLES. ANY TITLES. WHATEVER. wrote:
> > Dixit.
> > 
> > The World.

UPDATED: Monday, August 16, 1999
(Yes, this is the third time posting this updated analysis... And it 
will be posted again, and again, before the world votes on Black's 
29th move... Because of the consequences following Black's 29th move.)

"28...b5 29.h5, after which Black will have two possible lines:
(A) 29...Qe2 30.Qf5+ Kc7 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5 with an advantage 
for White. 
(B) 29...Qc4 30.Qf8! (30.Qf5+ Qe6) Qe2 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5, 
after which White is better off. Even if Black is worse off after 
either of these two lines, I think they represent our best chance to 
fight for a draw." - Etienne Bacrot

The above analysis (and comments) by Etienne Bacrot, inspired our 
small team to work hard on extensive analysis because Mr. Bacrot's 
statement "I think they represent our best chance to fight for a 
draw" is not sufficient for a positive conclusion.

UPDATE: Monday, August 16, 1999

Now the world apparently has a very serious dilemma to solve between 
two Queen moves: 29...Qe2! or 29...Qc4?! Why do I call this a 
dilemma? Because this is probably the most serious decision that the 
world players will make in this game.

"29...Qc4 30.Qf8! (30.Qf5+ Qe6) Qe2 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5, 
after which White is better off." - Etienne Bacrot 

Important to repeat: "29...Qc4, after which White is better 
off." - Etienne Bacrot

Next, we now have this extremely important statement in Mr. Danny 
King's commentary:

"As I see it, you have a choice between two quite different 
continuations:
the solid 29...Qe2, leading to a position giving Black drawing 
chances; or
a leap of faith with 29...Qc4, leading to random complications 
(though here
I would also say that Black cannot hope for more than a draw)." - 
Danny King

Important to repeat: 

"The solid (note "solid") 29...Qe2, leading to a position 
giving Black drawing chances; or a leap of faith (note "leap" 
and "faith") with 29...Qc4" - Danny King

Is the above statement by Mr. Danny King difficult to understand? If 
anyone does not understand, then clearly they cannot read! 29...Qe2! 
is "solid," while the alternative 29...Qc4?! is a 
"leap" into what?

It is my understanding that Irina Krush was also having a difficult 
time (at one time) concerning the decision on the Queen move to e2 or 
c4. I think that I recall that she first liked 29...Qc4, and then 
"switched" preferring 29...Qe2. Now, she has apparently 
"switched" again and prefers 29...Qc4. What or whom 
influenced her decision to select 29...Qc4? Please do not inform me 
that it was this Peter Spiriev again. Please... What a joke! While I 
am on the subject of Peter Spiriev, the following is an open 
challenge to you Mr. Spiriev: [Whoever you are (or think you are). 
Fischer? Naw, can't be true. Hitler? Well maybe, because his body was 
never found!] 

I will play the Black side in this current position (after Kasparov's 
29.h5) and you Mr. Spiriev will play the White side. Tournament 
conditions (no computers) with the time clocks starting at one-hour 
for each side to the 40th move. I think that this would be a fair 
time control! After the 40th move time control, then one-hour for 
each side to the 60th, 80th (if you last that long) and so on. 
Conditions: You Mr. Spiriev MUST WIN with White (since this is what 
you have proclaimed the outcome will be in all variations from this 
current position). I, on the otherhand, will only have to DRAW with 
Black. Prize Fund: Since you seem to be a money "hungry" 
mongrel, the winner of these conditions will receive $25,000.00 from 
the loser. Are you game? You have my e-mail address... Let me know 
before the world makes its 29th move for Black. Let's see if you will 
accept this challenge and put your money (and your supposed chess 
talent) where your "big mouth" is... Or, SHUT UP! Please... 
And stop influencing young Grandmaster Irina Krush with your 
"faulty" analysis. (By the way, I would most certainly back 
GM Krush in a chess match against you anytime! Tournament conditions, 
of course, and also with complete satisfaction that such a match 
would not be "fixed" beforehand). 

Back to the most important and serious matter at hand. It is now up 
to the world players to vote for 29...Qe2! ("The solid 
draw!") or 29...Qc4?! (The "leap" into uncertainty!). The 
choice is ours... And I certainly pray that the world elects 
29...Qe2! (This crucial time... For a change! :)

Question to Irina Krush: Which Queen move would you make (e2 or c4) 
if this were the position in the last round of a tournament, where 
first place was at stake if you lost, and a draw would secure first 
place? Would you still play 29...Qc4?! and risk falling, finishing in 
second place? It would be very difficult for me to accept a 
"yes" answer to this question from you.

I am submitting the following analysis again, because of the serious 
consequences that might follow if the world elects 29...Qc4. And no, 
I am not going to waste my time by submitting analysis on 29...Qc4, 
because it is inferior. Besides, all of you have plenty of analysis 
to study on this alternative Queen move anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------
NOTE: This entire analysis was submitted before Mr. Kasparov's 29th 
Move (29.h5).

We all feel that the following analysis shows that Black can survive 
with a draw in all ensuing variations... Yes, I am the first to admit 
that I am astonished (and very pleased) that we have successfully (in 
our collective opinions) found a miracle line for Black that ensures 
a drawn game.

Analysis: After 28...b5!  29.h5= ... 

Symbols used: [= Even]  [% Unclear]  [=> Slight Advantage]
[@ Winning Chances]

(A-main line) 29...Qe2!

(B) 29...Qc4!?
(B1) 30.Qf5+ Kc7% (30...Qe6?!%)
(B2) 30.Qf8 Qe2 31.Qf5+ (31.Bxf4!? Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5%) 31...Kc7 
32.Bxf4 Bxf4 33.Qxf4 Qxh5=, with hope of transposition to main line 
(A) analysis maybe? %

(A-main line) 30.Qf5+ ...

(A1) 30.Bh6!? b4 31.Rc1 Bd4 32.Qf5+ Kc7 33.Qxf4 Qxh5 34.Qxd4 Qxh6=

(A2) 30.Bxf4!? Bxf4 31.Qxf4 Qxh5 32.Qd2 e6 33.Rd1 Qe5=

(A3) 30.Qg6!? f3!? 31.Qf5+ Kc7 32.gxf3 Nd4 33.Rc1+ Kb6 34.Qf8 Nxf3+! 
35.Kh1 Nxg5! Forcing Kasparov to concede to a drawn game! 36.Qd8+ Ka7 
(36...Ka6 37.Qa8+ Kb6 38.Qd8+= repetition of position is forced) 
37.Qa5+ Kb8 38.Qd8+= etc.

(A-main line) 30...Kc7 31.Bxf4 Bxf4 32.Qxf4 Qxh5

"It is very difficult to visualize and count on Kasparov to allow 
his precious h-Pawn to fall, but I see no other way for him to 
extricate his position in order to activate White's Rook." - 
GM2654 (Who, like myself, wishes to remain anonymous).

Another colleague stated: "In addition, White's g-Pawn has the 
potential of becoming a serious and dangerous threat in the future, 
but I do not think that it will become powerful enough to score the 
point, and Black should hold with a draw." (Statement after 
Today's analysis. - GM2590, who also wishes to remain anonymous 
during this fiasco). 

(A-main line) 33.Rc1 Qd5 

(33...Qe2=%, 33...Qg6=%, 33...Kb8!?=%) 

(A-main line) 34.Kf1 ...

(A1) 34.g4!? (Hope Kasparov sees this mirage! :) 34...e5! 35.Qf6 b4! 
36.g5!? Qd3! => 

(Not 36...b3? 37.Rb1 Nd4 38.g6 @)

(A1) continued: 37.Kg2! b3! 38.Qf7+ Kb6 39.Qf3 Qb5! 

(Not 39...Qxf3+ 40.Kxf3 =>) 

(A1) continued: 40.g6!? Nd4!=, and Black should survive with at least 
a draw. However, one slight slip in this position by Kasparov, would 
allow Black to realize a miracle win!

(A-main line) 34...e5 35.Qg4!? Qd3+

(35...Kb6!? 36.Qd1 Qe6% or, 36...Nd4%)

(A-main line) 36.Qe2 ...

(36.Ke1, or 36.Kg1, 36...d5 =>)

(A-main line) 36...Qh7!=

(36...Qxe2+?! 37.Kxe2%; 36...Qb3, or 36...Qa3, 37.Qe3%)

(A-main line) 37.Kg1 Kb6!=

(37...Qh6!? 38.Rd1 Nd4 39.Qa2%)

(A-main line) 38.Qe3+ ...

(38.f4 Nd4 39.Qe3 Qh5!= transposition to main line analysis) 

(A-main line) 38...Nd4!?

Might not be a good idea to continue hoping for a miracle win if we 
make it this far. (38...Kc7= putting the question to White 39.Qe2!? 
draw by repetition?)

(A-main line) 39.f4! Qh5

(39...Qg7 40.fxe5 dxe5=. Or, 39...Qh6 40.g3=)

(A-main line) 40.fxe5 dxe5=

(40...Qxe5!? 41.Kf2% or 41.Qxe5% or 41.Qf2%)

(A-main line) 41.Re1% Qg6! 42.Qe4 Qg5!
And the world should survive with a miracle draw no matter what the 
World Champion attempts from here! :)

(But not 42...Qxe4? 43.Rxe4 Nc6, leading to a text-book ending giving 
White winning chances after 44.g4! =>@).

Evaluation: 
Key for Black is to avoid exchanging Queens, unless, of course, 
Kasparov finds a way to force the Queens exchange. Although it 
appears that he will not be able to find a way to "force" the 
Queens exchange. Conclusion: Draw in all variations. However, 
remember that this "conclusion" is based only upon the 
"possible" positions presented in the analysis lines. 
Variations in chess are endless. Therefore, it is expected (and 
probably "predictable") that Mr. Kasparov will play 
"unexpected" moves that have not been foreseen by anyone in 
their analysis lines, including all of the world computers 
calculations of this game also.   

We sincerely hope that this analysis will help the world achieve a 
draw... Or, maybe some bright young star will find a miracle winning 
move for Black hidden somewhere in the world's analysis lines!

Go World :) Let's at least achieve a draw in this game... While the 
opportunity can be taken in this current position! My vote will be 
(of course :) 29...Qe2! and "hope" it becomes 
"President!" However, unfortunately, the vote again appears 
to be another landslide election for 29...Qc4?! Unbelievable.

Sincerely,
David GM2505

PS - I certainly hope that we have not overlooked any hidden dangers 
lurking in White's position. Mr. Kasparov is tenacious... Please 
remember this world!

One final comment on the dubious 29...Qc4?! This alternative will 
allow Mr. Kasparov to keep his "precious" h-Pawn... Are we 
(the world players) certain that we want to have to contend with 
White's h-Pawn in the future? If the answer is "yes," then my 
response to this is "unbelievable!" After the Queen plays out 
her part on c4, there will be very little doubt remaining that this 
event has been nothing more than a prearranged underhanded staged 
show from the very beginning for the world to watch in awe... As the 
chessmen all play out their individual roles on the chessboard stage. 
Yes! This is our opinion, to which we are freely entitled to voice, 
no matter who likes it or not.

(Please forgive any "typo" errors in the event that any are 
discovered. Also, this analysis will be "updated" when and 
"if" it becomes necessary to do so).

Still waiting for a reply from "Spiriev" :)

"Sick" is right (for lack of a better word to think of for 
this fiasco) concerning all aspects of this truly "sickening 
fiasco!" GM2505

On Mon Aug 16 23:46:13, You ppl make me sick. wrote:
> On Mon Aug 16 16:20:38, Lew Kopenia wrote:
> > 
> > Irina Krush recently posted a message in the strategy forum to the 
> > effect of "Chill out, it's only a game!"
> > I was really impressed by the maturity and overall
> > perspective of her writing.  Since so many chessplayers with only a 
> > fraction of her accomplishments tend to be
> > arrogant and argumentative, it was a refreshing alternative.
> > 
> > Can anyone tell the message number (or link) to that post?  I'd like 
> > to save it as a positive example.
> > 
> > Thanks
> 
> Yes, lets all be impressed by how casual irena was about the game, I 
> mean, after all, it isn't like it would serve her purposes or 
> anything.

On Mon Aug 16 21:54:30, Anon wrote:

AOL makes an aggressive effort to follow up on obscene and 
threatening language and has verification built into IM's to 
"keep" people from faking them. In the face of obvious 
blatant violations and no action, some people will confront such a 
person in the language they understand. The crocodile tears dod not 
fool too many people. 


> Do any of the people screaming and abusing each other on this BBS 
> ever bother to read the bold type request at the top of each message 
> posting page -
> 
> >Before posting, be sure to read the posting guidelines. 
> 
> >It is a condition of your use of the bulletin boards 
> >and this Web site that you do not:
> >Restrict or inhibit any other user from using and 
> >enjoying the bulletin boards. 
>                       
>                      
> >Post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, 
> >libelous, defamatory, obscene, vulgar, pornographic, 
> >profane or indecent information of any kind, including 
> >without limitation any transmissions constituting or 
> >encouraging conduct that would constitute a criminal 
> >offense, give rise to civil liability or otherwise 
> >violate any local, state, national or international law. 
> 
> 
> 
>

May those few who voted 29…Qe2 celebrate for a draw and wish for a 
free T-shirt, displaying this move.
 We will accept the logos MSN and FIRST BANK in appreciation for this 
tremendous event. The level of chess has risen by a notch worldwide, 
the mystique of chess remains intact and the perfection of chess 
remains a dream for man and machine.


May those who voted 29…Qc4  stock up on Kleenex and try to finish the 
game with endings like

	30.Qf5+	Qe6
	31.g4 !

East Vancouver rules

Attn. entrepreneurs: toilet tissue printed with ‘s’piriev’s analyses
should sell like hot cakes.

On Tue Aug 17 09:16:51, YASHA wrote:

> 28...b5
> 29.h5 Qc4
> 30.Qf8 b4
> 31.h6 b3
> 32.Qf5+ e6
> 33.Qf7 Kc8
> 34.Bf6 b2
> 35.Qg8 Kc7
> 36.Qh7 Kb6

(Also 36...Kb8 37.Bxe5 Nxe5= but if 38.Qb1?? f3! -+ as given by Krush 
in FAQ)

> 37.Be5 Ne5
> 38.Qb1 Qc3

Now 39.h7 Nf3+ = CCT

If instead 39.Qe4?! then 39...Nc4 40.Rd1 Nd2 41.Qe1 Qc2 42.h7 Qxh7 
43.Qxd2 b1=Q 44.Qxd6+ Ka5 45.Qe5+ Ka4 46.Rxb1 Qxb1+ -/+ Krush (she 
analyzed this after being notified of Crafty's 36...Kb6.

Available at SmartChess Online
http://www.smartchess.com/SmartChessOnline/
Click on "Garry Kasparov versus The World"
Click on "Irina Analysis FAQ"

Downloads in 
CBV/PGN - zipped
CBV 
PGN

On Tue Aug 17 12:28:15, ...Nd8 wrote:
> This is the second or third move in a row.  Do they just suck at 
> chess, or are they saboteurs? (MeThinks I smell a Hungarian)

yeah BlauDanau 
you keep insulting Spiriev 
i don't know but you look like 2 lil' kids
in elementary school who always fight but they don't know why.

i know that Nd8 is a stupid move 
but don't blam spiriev for all the stupidities on earth(a couple but 
not all :) ) 

c'mon make peace,kiss each other and all the team will benefit here

MAYBE KASPAROV JUST WANTS THIS MATCH TO LAST TIL THE WC IS OVER TO 
GET THE FOCUS AWAY FROM IT, (ANYWAY HE SHOULD RATHER HAVE PLAYED IN 
VEGAS IN MY OPINION)

On Wed Aug 18 03:33:07, DK wrote:
> On Wed Aug 18 03:00:29, steni wrote:
> > On Wed Aug 18 02:27:33, DK wrote:
> > > Re this line 
> > > 
> > > Re Qc4 30 Qxc4 bxc4
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Can GK play g4 at 31 after the queen exchange? Is it good for White? 
> > > It's not in FAQ - I'm looking at this utterly zany idea and wondering 
> > > if I want to be Black or White?
> > > 
> > > 29...Qc4 
> > > 30. Qxc4 bxc4 
> > > 31. g4 fxg3 
> > > 32. fxg3 Bxg3 
> > > 33. h6 Be5 (do we need to make a knight move perhaps?) 
> > > 34. h7 b5 
> > > 35. Bf6 Bxf6 
> > > 36. Rxf6 exf6 
> > > 37. h8=Q Ne5
> > > 
> > > Can White eliminate our pawns? 
> > > 
> > > DK
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 32....Bxg3 is not good...b5! and black is in time
> > 
> > steni
> 
> Reply - I'm sure there's something right in what you say - but could 
> I see the full line please because clearly you don't intend to 
> suggest...
> 
> 
> 30. Qxc4 bxc4 
> 31. g4 fxg3 
> 32. fxg3 b5 
> 33. h6 b4 
> 34. h7 b3 
> 35. Bf6 Bxf6 
> 36. Rxf6 exf6 
> 37. h8=Q
> 
> DK
>

30.Qxc4 bxc4 31.g4 b5 is winning for Black.

On Thu Aug 19 17:36:28, Ross Amann wrote:
> It dismisses 31.g4 and 31.Qd3 - both with b4 - with lines close 
> (almost identical) to those worked out here.
> 
> Now we can concentrate on 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 - and we have till Sunday AM 
> to have analysis posted here for Irina.

If you see my post above you will see why it's not good to dismiss 
31.g4. The FAQ gives 31...b4 32.Rb1 Nd4 33.Qxe6+ Kxe6 line a good 
evaluation for Black, but white has many good winning tries!! There 
is another very beautiful draw only, not mentioned in the FAQ.

Thanks, IM LS
pearlcaster@hotmail.com

Many people are arguing about different 31.g4 lines, prove that this 
doesnt transpose then continue arguing :=).

Quick new outline, I will compare new developments and put out my 
final version. I think this was very up to date at 5 am. Anyone see 
any changes or reasons Zark's Bg3 line is no good, pls let me know. 

Best viewed at: http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

Kasparov proclaims game "the most complicated and analyzed game 
in the history of chess," Wall Street Journal 8/12/99 "It's 
quite annoying from my point of view because if I do a second-quality 
move in this game, there's just no way out." Does he mean 16. a4?!
The game so far:
[Site "Microsoft Gaming Zone"]
[White "Kasparov, G."]
[Black "The World"]
[ECO "B52"]
[EventDate "1999.??.??"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. 
O-O g6 8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Bg7 10. Nde2 Qe6 {N (Krush) The "World 
Variation"} 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Nc7+ Kd7 13. Nxa8 Qxc4 14. Nb6+ axb6 
15. Nc3 Ra8 {(Speelman)} 16. a4 16... Ne4 17. Nxe4 17... Qxe4 18. Qb3 
18... f5 (GM School - Khalifman)} 19. Bg5 19... Qb4 {(Jason Van 
Eaton)} 20. Qf7 Be5 {(Brian McCarthy)} 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. 
Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7 áBd4 26. Qb3 f4 {{Yasha}}27. Qf7 Be5 
28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 (above designations as given by analyst US 
Women's champion Irina Krush: www.smartchess.com):
World Annoys Kasparov! á á World Bluffs Kasparov!?
Outline 8/11/99 Predicting á 31. Qxe6 Score of Predictions so far 
15-1 (Qf5?!)
Recommending: 30.... Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 Bg3 
Garry has tried to sidestep our mountain of ...e6 analysis, but did 
he do anything else? He transposes to a line I had as recommended 
from the middle of last week till yesterday. Clearly the answer lies 
in white's g pawn. Can he play g4 instead of trading? Can he play g3 
or g4 once he does play Qxe6? The best way to look at this 
fascinating ending is by a concept introduced to me by one of my 
favorite Russian authors: Eugene Znosko-Borovsky, related sqaures. We 
have forcing sets of moves that can happen in many different 
sequences, and GK is a master of seeing the subtle difference. I 
believe that Garri may have considered Qf7 áa harmless prod and that 
he could retreat to other lines without losing a tempo if needed, but 
our plans of e6 and Qg4 spoil that. Gary needs a real plan to finish 
the game, whatever the result, and we need to be as ready as possible.
Developments! I just can't convince my computer Bxg3 isn't good after 
Qxe6 Kex6 32 g3 fg 33 fg, I ran it out to a billion nodes and it 
liked Bxg3, so i did it again, the result, pv h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 
Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Bd4 Be3 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 -7 [Zarkov] 1.17 billion 
nodes. +. The latest try is b4 and usually the 1st thing to look at 
in all lines, however if both moves are causing decent white 
positions, we need to think about it very carefully. I will verify 
this and other new developments for my final Qe6 outline. Zarkov's 
quick take on the computer chess teams expected line yesterday is 
inthe middle of the other beasts 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 
fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 b3 35. Bf4 áand 35...Bd4+ 36.Kg2 b2 37.Kf3 b5 
38.Rh1 d5 39.h6 Kf7 40.h7 Bh8. My current recommendation is not based 
on any secret knowledge, just trying to direct attention to all 
áplayable options. 
There are many new ideas after Qf5+ Qe6, g4!?, Qxe6 Kxe6 g3 and also 
ideas of Bc1 if we try f3. All moves have been looked at, but none to 
the 20 move level we had ...e6. The world has strengthened it defense 
to Qd3 in the initial line suggested by the Computer Chess Club: 
25.Qf7 Bd4 Logray 26. Qb3 26...f4 27. Qf7 Be5 28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 
30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qd3 Qc4 32. Rd1 Qxd3 33. Rxd3 e6 5/14 +0.17 35+ 
hours CM6K suggested by Krush to refute 25.Qf7; Crafty rates end pos. 
+1.33 @ 12ply. now 31...Qg4 and Nd4 are both good plans scoring well 
on the CC Club. By far our biggest pressing need is deciding whether 
to play ..b4 or Bxg3 in the g3 line.
MAIN LINE: Garry has entered the old main line, first appearing at 
the computer chess club site on 8/10/99. After having played out the 
pawn race in a mock game, I feel confident in black's position. The 
computer evaluations have been steadily improving since the key Bd4 
juncture. IM Orlov feels black is better and said if Kasparov doesn't 
make a draw he will be playing for the loss! To underline just how 
...e6 fit in that exact position áQf8-f5, ...e6 played now is rated 
at +350!
We are left with áthe pawn race. He repeated Qf7 to fix our weakness 
and tame our bishop. We have responded by sealing off his queen and 
bishop so we can try to queen our pawn and discourage any queen 
trades that bring bad technical endings! Did we succeed? It looks 
that way do far!
A) 30, Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qg6 b4 32.Rb1 b5 33.Qd3 Qg4 34.Qxb5 Qxg5 35.Qb7+ 
Ke6 36.Qxc6 Qxh6 37.Rxb4 Qd1+ 38.Kh2 Qh5+ 39.Kg1 full 18 0.00 
>20h rb crafty 16.15
B) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qd3 (Qb1 can also be met by the Qg4-f3 plan) 31. 
... Qg4 (It seems Qc4 is not needed but the CC Club suggests b4 as a 
winning attempt! see B3) 32. Qxb5 f3 33. Qxb7+ Kd8 34. g3 Bxg3 35. 
Qb6+ Kd7 36. Qb7+ Kd8 14 +0.00 (draw) Aaron Crafty 16.13 SmartFAQ 
8/11 Line E5a3) Pawn race looks fine.
B1) 32. Qh3 Qxh3 33. gxh3 Ke6 =
B2) 32. Qxb5 f3 33. Qxb7+ Kd8 34. Be7+!? Nxe7 35. Qxf3 Qxf3 36 gxf3 
Nf5 37 Re1 Kd7 38. Kf1 Bf6 (not Nd4 Rxe5! General Moe) 39.f4 Bc3 
40.Re4 d5 41.Ra4 Nd4 42.Ra3 Nb5 43.Rb3 Kc6 áand Zarkov +58 after 14 
million nodes but it is hard to see white winning with his split 
pawns.
B3) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qd3) b4 32.Rc1 jb 32...Nd4 33. f3 Qf7 34. Rc4 Ne6 
35. Bh4 Qxh5 36. Be1 Bc3 37. Bxc3 bxc3 38. Qxc3 b5 17 -0.63 8h crafty 
16.15/solaris SmartFAQ 8/11 Line E5a32; crafty rates end pos. -0.61 @ 
11ply

C) 30. Qf5 Qe6 31. g4!? This line is the subject of much debate, I 
will give Zarkov's take. Nd4 has been hot and cold, Qxf5 risks a 
possible f6 (Ross Amman) queening, but seems the best until an exact 
plan is found. Crafty agrees (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4 rb 31...Qxf5 32. gxf5 
Nd4 33. Kg2 f3+ 34. Kh3 Nxf5 35. Rb1 e6 36. h6 Nd4 37. Kg4 Kc6 38. 
Be3 18 -0.12 13h crafty 16.15 ) 31...Qxf5 32.gxf5 Nd4 33.Kg2 Nxf5 
34.Re1 Bc3 35.Rb1 Nd4 36.Bxf4 e6 37.h6 b4 Zarkov at 80 million nodes 
-12, however Zarkov flirts with +08 for a while. This line needs to 
be clarified, but does not seem dangerous.
C1) Past 90million nodes, Zarkov likes white again, but still close 
to even. 31...Qxf5 32.gxf5 Nd4 33.Kg2 Nxf5 34.Re1 Bc3 35.Rb1 Nd4 
36.h6 Ne6 37.Rxb5 Nxg5 38.Rxg5 e6 +8 97 million nodes.
C2) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4 b4 32.Kg2 b3 33.h6 b2 (FAQ one line played out 
on the BBS is : 34.Qxe6+ Kxe6 35.h7 f3+ 36. Kxf3 Nd4+ 37. Ke3 Nc2+ 
38. Kd3 Na3 39. f4 Bh8 40. Re1+ Kd7 á41. Rxe7+ Kc6 42. Re1 b1=Q+ 43. 
Rxb1 Nxb1 44. f5 Nc3 45. f6 Na4! 46. f7 Nc5+ 47. Kd2 Ne6 48. Be7 Kd7! 
draw. "DBC"
D) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g4 fxg3 andtransposes to below is the 
current recommendation.
E) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 (Can we reall do 
this?) 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37. Rf3 Ne5 38. Rg3 Bh8 (what?! 
rb) full 14 -0.06 21min crafty 16.15 ("can white win!? we can 
always play 33...b4, of course" rb )
E1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 37.h7 
Bg7 38.Rf8 b4 )37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 38...Kd5 39. Kf2 b3 40. Bc1 e5 
41. Rh1 b5 42. Rd1+ Kc5 43. Be3+ Kb4 44. Bc1 Nd4 45. Bb2 Kc4 46. Rc1+ 
Kd5 47.Rd1 Kc5 48. Bxd4+ exd4 49. Rc1+ Kd5 50. Kf3 full 18 -0.08 13h 
crafty 16.13 (who knows... rb)
E2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3) b4 34. Rb1 Bxg3 
35.Bd2 Kf5 36.Bxb4 Kg5 37.Kg2 Be5 38.Bd2+ Kxh5 39.Rxb7 d5 -20 CC Club
E2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34.g4 (rb) b3 
35.Bf4 Bc3 (35...Bd4+ 36. Kg2 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. h6 Nd3 39. Kf3 Kf5 
40. Bd2 Nc1 41. Rxc1 bxc1=Q 42. Bxc1 Kg6 +0.23 13h crafty ) 36. g5 
Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 41. g7 Bxg7 42. 
hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 13h crafty 16.15 
tablebases would probably solve that last position; TB says draw -jb
E2a1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3) 
35.h6 b3 (12/13 +0.20 3hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 
333Mhz CM6k first gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (+0.08) (then it changed line Raimondo D'Ambrosio)
E2b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 ) 
Bd4+35.Kg2 b3 36. g4 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. Bd2 Nd3 39. Rb1 Ne5 40. g6 Nc4 
41. Bb4 Kf5 42. Rh1 Ne3+ 43. Kg3 Nc2 18 +0.40 7h crafty 16.15/solaris 
w/TB end pos. -0.37 @ 14ply jb
E2b1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 jb 
34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. g4 ) Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 Kc4 16 
+0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris see below
E2b2) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 b3 35. 
Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 b2 38.Kf3 Bc3 39.g5 e5 40.Be3 Ne7 41.Rd1+ 
Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5 17 +0.58 12h crafty 16.15 "personally I 
find it hard to believe that black is holding this " rb.
Conclusion: Garri has left the most analyzed line in the most 
analyzed game, only to go to one of the next most analyzed 
comtinuation. He probably will try a g pawn manuever as opposed to a 
queen retreat. We need a complete line vs 32 g3 and the outlook 
remains positive.
(Computer Chess Club) 
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?method=reportRows&listname=computergang&tbl
=1&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&start_at=0&prntRpt=1
Thanks to everyone on the Compter Chess Team!
http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

8-19-99

33.f4, Kf5 (not !), 34.Kg2,Bd4, 35.h6,b4  36. Rf3 as follows:

F5b2112 Chessmasterone Analysts:  36.Rf3,Bh8 (another Bh8 line, but 
may not work this time)

37.Rb3 (Rxg3 which occurs anyway) Kg6, 38.Rxg3,e6 (or e5,or d5. Or 
King  move), 39. Be7+
Kxh6, 40.Bxd6 (again the a3-f8 diagonal key), Bc3 (all others the 
rook active on g5 or e file with
Re3) 41. Bxf8+!,Kh7 42.Rg5!,13/13 ply, b3, 43.Rb5 advantage white, 
b3, 43. Rb5, Nd4 (àNa5?
Bb4,Bxb4,Rxb4,Kg6,Rb5.) 44.Rxb7 advantage white.
This ending may still draw for black, but white+.

On Thu Aug 19 19:53:40, IM2429 wrote:
> Many people are arguing about different 31.g4 lines, prove that this 
> doesnt transpose then continue arguing :=).

I've looked at some, just in the hope of finding a crushing one that 
wins for us. ;)  If not we always have the transposition.

Please someone who attends the whole of tonight's
Chat could they record the whole session!

When the chat has finished! Do not leave the chat session!

Highlight all of the text!
Press "ctrl+c"
Open notepad or wordpad!
Press "ctrl+v"

Then save the file!

Then please e-mail the file as an attachment to me at 
webmaster@cork.zzn.com!


Thanks!
John
webmaster@cork.zzn.com
http://talk.to/cork

33. f4 Kf5 
34. Kg2 Kg4
35. h6 Bh8 
36. Rf3 Kf5 
37. Rxg3 b4 
38. Bh4 Ke4 
39. h7 Bd4 
40. Rg6 Nd8
41. Bf6 Nf7 
42. Bxd4 Kxd4 
43. Rg7 Nh8 
44. Rg8 b3 
45. Rxh8 b2 
46. Ra8 b1=Q
47. h8=Q+  and white has the advantage.

What is the best counter to 33. f4, so I can work it out?  I have 
read that Kf5 is not black's best response, so what is?  Is the FAQ 
up to date on this line?  Last I checked (this morning) it was not.

-Thomas

On Thu Aug 19 22:04:30, Thomas D wrote:
> 33. f4 Kf5      
no.33.....Bh8
> 34. Kg2 Kg4
> 35. h6 Bh8 
> 36. Rf3 Kf5 
> 37. Rxg3 b4 
> 38. Bh4 Ke4 
> 39. h7 Bd4 
> 40. Rg6 Nd8
> 41. Bf6 Nf7 
> 42. Bxd4 Kxd4 
> 43. Rg7 Nh8 
> 44. Rg8 b3 
> 45. Rxh8 b2 
> 46. Ra8 b1=Q
> 47. h8=Q+  and white has the advantage.
> 
> What is the best counter to 33. f4, so I can work it out?  I have 
> read that Kf5 is not black's best response, so what is?  Is the FAQ 
> up to date on this line?  Last I checked (this morning) it was not.
> 
> -Thomas

I do believe that it was on Turn 19 that I asked that question, and 
now, after GK has finally earned the sponsor's money by keeping 
people around long enough to apply for the credit card to get the 
"free" T-shirt (which is anything but), I'll take a few wild 
shots in the dark:  MOVE 31:  White Qf5 to f8 or Qf5 to either b1 or 
c2.  The first leaves Black with NO effective response, the second 
and third open the door to a "Ms. Pac-Man" chomping away with 
White's Queen and Rook on the b or c file, leading to an 
embarassingly amateurish defeat for the World Team and our supposed 
advisors, "the analysts".  (Who's paying THEM to give us 
"advice," anyway?)

I have repeatedly voted for the move, but now I shall voice it 
publicly, even though it is too late: f4 to f3.  To quote David Ben 
Gurion's orders to his field commander in Jerusalem in 1948, 
"Attack and attack and attack!"

Damn the analysts and their advice -- White's King has been sitting 
almost undefended for a good part of the game.  Remove his pawn from 
g2, and he is wide open to attack -- unless the world team caves in 
to ANOTHER brilliant analysis like that which removed Black's only 
strong piece -- the Queen -- from  the center, where she can do what 
she is SUPPOSED to be doing -- controlling the center of the board 
and threatening the White King and his defenders.  Now she does 
nothing but give White's Queen the freedom of the board (except for a 
whopping one space out of the sixty-four; any other action against 
the White Queen resulting in a trade-off that will be distinctly to 
Black's disadvantage).  

The wasteful advance of b6 to b5 was incredibly foolish.  What is 
that pawn supposed to do -- rush forward in a race with White's pawn 
on h5 just so that White's Rook can eat it on b1?  A few moves ago it 
provided density to Black's defense, now it is undefended and 
useless, providing support to nothing and merely clearing the way for 
Black's King to run away in disgrace for an extra move or so while we 
enjoy credit card advertisements.

Bah!  Black lost at least two moves ago -- where's the option that 
allows us to vote to knock over our King and depart with some measure 
of decorum and with at least a little dignity intact?  If we can't do 
that, then for pity's sake, let us ATTACK!  If Kasparov trades Queens 
now (why he would, I cannot imagine!), Black's Bishop will prevent 
the advancement of White's King's Rook's Pawn to h8, so let us ATTACK 
the enemy  King and at least go down in a blaze of glory.  

"To Valhalla or Hel!" sez I.

On Thu Aug 19 23:21:09, Chessmasterone Analyst's 33. f4 line wrote:

Who thinks Garri is going to start flipping his rook back and forth 
after what doing it to his queen got him??
 
I think Rxg3 is a good response to Bh8 and wonder why Kg6 before Bh8 
isn't better, but anyway, 1 line at a time and the reason Rd1 is 
clearly better is 36 Rf3?!
Bh8 Rb3? d5 and d5 scores a plus for a while until it sees a larger 
one. Here is our time to use the d pawn knowledge we have to verify 
this line!
37...d5 38.Rxg3 e5 39.fxe5 Bxe5 40.h7 Kg6 41.Bf6+ Kxh7 42.Rg7+ Kh6 
43.Bxe5 Nxe5 44.Rxb7 -35 or the -45 version

37...e5 38.Kxg3 e4 39.Kf2 d5 40.h7 d4 41.Ke2 b5 42.Kd2

Of course it is impossible for Garri to make 2 blunders in a row with 
Rf3 and Rb3, but we need to make sure. 



> 8-19-99, 8-20-99
> 
> 33.f4, Kf5 , 34.Kg2,Bd4, 35.h6,b4  36. Rf3 as follows:
> 
> F5b2112 Chessmasterone Analysts:  36.Rf3,Bh8 (another Bh8 line, but 
> may not work this time)
> 
> 37.Rb3 (Rxg3 which occurs anyway) Kg6, 38.Rxg3,e6 (or e5,or d5. Or 
> King  move), 39. Be7+
> Kxh6, 40.Bxd6 (again the a3-f8 diagonal key), Bc3 (all others the 
> rook active on g5 or e file with
> Re3) 41. Bxf8+!,Kh7 42.Rg5!,13/13 ply, b3, 43.Rb5 advantage white, 
> b3, 43. Rb5, Nd4 (Na5?
> Bb4,Bxb4,Rxb4,Kg6,Rb5.) 44.Rxb7 advantage white.
> This ending may still draw for black, but white+.
>  
> Ross A, we are looking now at your Rd1 move. Update
> appears to transpose...many lines
>

Ross already lectured you on your "borrowed opinion" on the 
position and suggested you are pushing Rf3 and ignoring Rd1. 

my 10 million node line asks the same question, you have been posting 
about this nonsense for at least 5 hours, it took me 10 minutes to 
bust it wide open so any one can see it is silly.

37...e5 38.Kxg3 e4 39.Rb1 d5 40.Kf2 d4 41.Ke2 Kg6 42.Rb3 b5 +56 10 
mill 

talk about Rd1 or bury this whole stupid idea.

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Please translate, can't do this under HP-UX 11.0

If the 2 computer brute force ideas work against g4, ie fg3 if qxq 
and qxf5 if not, then as posted by HIARCS, white is worse!!!


I knew from looking at the position that Bg3 was more desireable to 
b4, and didn't see why it couldn't be played. In a tourney game I am 
grabbing that pawn, after using as much free time as possible.

Here I had to go to work and needed the help of someone else who's 
instinct also said the same thing.
A person on the CC team with a knack for walking out lines and 
finding real solutions is Raimondo D'Ambrosio. His efforts to our 
...e6 "bluff" were crucial and here, once again, I think he 
has something:


30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 32... fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7!! 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 Bh8 40.Bxb4  13/14 
+0.18 17 hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 333Mhz NEW IDEA. 
First CM gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 Nc4 Bb4+ 
Kf1 (lost end-game) then it changed line to 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3 
35.h6 b3 (lost end-game). Now it changed back to 33. .. Bxg3 and the 
end-game seems DRAW thanks to 35. Bg7!!

PLease translate who knows russian

I saw a line in which Bg3 is based, where computer retreats after 
trying to sac rook for queen, It rates the position as better for 
black but obvious moves, simple to GK, produce a standoff position, 
where we might end up regretting eating on g3!

I have included Zark's sidelines, it seems this may be too deep for 
computers at 1st run:
29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 

pv Bxg3 h6 Be5 Kg2 b4 h7 Bg7 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 Ke4 d5+ 
Ke3 -10 [Zarkov] 

Bxg3 

pv h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Bd4 Be3 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 -7 
[Zarkov] 1.17 billion nodes 

34. h6 Be5 35. h7 Bg7 

pv Rb1 b4 Bd2 Kf7 Bxb4 Kg6 Bd2 Kxh7 Rxb7 -15 [Zarkov] 

36. Rf8 b4 (here at the CC team the comp went Rf3 promting a 
"what" comment, so naturally lets examine queening, it is 
high on Gari's list!!
 
37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kf5 

pv Bc1 d5 Kf2 Ke4 Rh4+ Kd3 Rh7 Kc2 Bg5 -51 [Zarkov] 

39. Bc1 Ke4 40. Rh3 e5 41. Kf2 Nd4 

pv Bd2 b3 Bc3 Nc6 Bd2 Nd4 +2 [Zarkov] 

42. Bd2 b3 43. Bc3 

pv Nc6 Bb2 Na5 Re3+ Kd5 Rd3+ Ke6 Ke2 d5 Rh3 -1 [Zarkov] pv Nc6 Bb2 
Na5 Ke2 Kd5 Rd3+ Ke6 Rh3 +8 [Zarkov] 

Nc6 44. Ke2 Kd5 45. Kd3 b6 

and we end up +32 11 + mill nodes pv Bb2 Na5 Kc3 Kc6 Rh6 Kd5 Ba3 Nc4 
Kxb3 Nxa3 Kxa3 +32 [Zarkov]

On Fri Aug 20 00:29:29, BMcC     Instict is important, Is white Worse 
wrote:
> If the 2 computer brute force ideas work against g4, ie fg3 if qxq 
> and qxf5 if not, then as posted by HIARCS, white is worse!!!
> 
> 
> I knew from looking at the position that Bg3 was more desireable to 
> b4, and didn't see why it couldn't be played. In a tourney game I am 
> grabbing that pawn, after using as much free time as possible.
> 
> Here I had to go to work and needed the help of someone else who's 
> instinct also said the same thing.
> A person on the CC team with a knack for walking out lines and 
> finding real solutions is Raimondo D'Ambrosio. His efforts to our 
> ...e6 "bluff" were crucial and here, once again, I think he 
> has something:
> 
> 
> 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 32... fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
> 35.h7 Bg7!! 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 Bh8 40.Bxb4  13/14 
> +0.18 17 hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 333Mhz NEW IDEA. 
> First CM gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 Nc4 Bb4+ 
> Kf1 (lost end-game) then it changed line to 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3 
> 35.h6 b3 (lost end-game). Now it changed back to 33. .. Bxg3 and the 
> end-game seems DRAW thanks to 35. Bg7!!  

ok.  the endgame is APPARENTLY drawn after 36.Rf8 b4
37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5!  but I'd like to
see some humans agreeing with me.  (I will
check out the FAQ after this)

I think 36.Bh6 may be more of a worry.

30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4 Qxf5 32.gxf5 Nd4 33.Kg2 f3+ rb 34.Kh3 Nxf5 35. h6 
e6 36. h7 Bh8 37. Kg4 d5 38. Rb1 Nd4 39. Be3 Kc6 40. Bxd4 Bxd4 41. 
Kxf3 b6 42. Rc1+ Kd7 43. Rh1 Bh8 44. Rc1  full 18 +0.20 ~3.5h crafty 
16.15 can't see where we're going wrong... FAQ doesn't consider 
...f3+ 

This seems to be the best idea to come from today, people may think 
they mean well extending an improbable sideline 50 moves, but we have 
only so many resources. Once we solve the positions that can lead to 
easy white edges, we can pull the wings off imaginary flies to build 
stature on our web page.

On Fri Aug 20 00:46:44, richard bean wrote:
> On Fri Aug 20 00:29:29, BMcC     Instict is important, Is white Worse 
> wrote:

You are right about Kd5, but it still looks shaky, however one pawn 
and a king can handle a rook, so if we get there before bishop, it 
could be holdable!

If you notice , Zarkov "found" Bg7 last night in my billion 
move runs. I will Bh6 now.



> > If the 2 computer brute force ideas work against g4, ie fg3 if qxq 
> > and qxf5 if not, then as posted by HIARCS, white is worse!!!
> > 
> > 
> > I knew from looking at the position that Bg3 was more desireable to 
> > b4, and didn't see why it couldn't be played. In a tourney game I am 
> > grabbing that pawn, after using as much free time as possible.
> > 
> > Here I had to go to work and needed the help of someone else who's 
> > instinct also said the same thing.
> > A person on the CC team with a knack for walking out lines and 
> > finding real solutions is Raimondo D'Ambrosio. His efforts to our 
> > ...e6 "bluff" were crucial and here, once again, I think he 
> > has something:
> > 
> > 
> > 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 32... fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
> > 35.h7 Bg7!! 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 Bh8 40.Bxb4  13/14 
> > +0.18 17 hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 333Mhz NEW IDEA. 
> > First CM gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 Nc4 Bb4+ 
> > Kf1 (lost end-game) then it changed line to 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3 
> > 35.h6 b3 (lost end-game). Now it changed back to 33. .. Bxg3 and the 
> > end-game seems DRAW thanks to 35. Bg7!!  
> 
> ok.  the endgame is APPARENTLY drawn after 36.Rf8 b4
> 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5!  but I'd like to
> see some humans agreeing with me.  (I will
> check out the FAQ after this)
> 
> I think 36.Bh6 may be more of a worry.

On Fri Aug 20 01:02:11, BMcC Agree Kd5! not Kf5?!  

29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 Bxg3 34. 
h6 Be5 35. h7 Bg7 36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. Rh3 Kc4 
40. Bd2 Nd4 41. Kf2 

pv b5 Rh7 b3 Rxe7 b2 Re1 Nb3 Ke3 Nc1 Rxc1+ bxc1 Bxc1 d5 -28 [Zarkov] 
at 5 million and at 13 mill:
41...d5 42.Bg5 e5 43.Bf6 Nc6 44.Rh7 d4 45.Ke2 e4 46.Rxb7 -38

wrote:
> On Fri Aug 20 00:46:44, richard bean wrote:
> > On Fri Aug 20 00:29:29, BMcC     Instict is important, Is white Worse 
> > wrote:
> 
> You are right about Kd5, but it still looks shaky, however one pawn 
> and a king can handle a rook, so if we get there before bishop, it 
> could be holdable!
> 
> If you notice , Zarkov "found" Bg7 last night in my billion 
> move runs. I will Bh6 now.
> 
> 
> 
> > > If the 2 computer brute force ideas work against g4, ie fg3 if qxq 
> > > and qxf5 if not, then as posted by HIARCS, white is worse!!!
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I knew from looking at the position that Bg3 was more desireable to 
> > > b4, and didn't see why it couldn't be played. In a tourney game I am 
> > > grabbing that pawn, after using as much free time as possible.
> > > 
> > > Here I had to go to work and needed the help of someone else who's 
> > > instinct also said the same thing.
> > > A person on the CC team with a knack for walking out lines and 
> > > finding real solutions is Raimondo D'Ambrosio. His efforts to our 
> > > ...e6 "bluff" were crucial and here, once again, I think he 
> > > has something:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 32... fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
> > > 35.h7 Bg7!! 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 Bh8 40.Bxb4  13/14 
> > > +0.18 17 hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 333Mhz NEW IDEA. 
> > > First CM gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 Nc4 Bb4+ 
> > > Kf1 (lost end-game) then it changed line to 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3 
> > > 35.h6 b3 (lost end-game). Now it changed back to 33. .. Bxg3 and the 
> > > end-game seems DRAW thanks to 35. Bg7!!  
> > 
> > ok.  the endgame is APPARENTLY drawn after 36.Rf8 b4
> > 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5!  but I'd like to
> > see some humans agreeing with me.  (I will
> > check out the FAQ after this)
> > 
> > I think 36.Bh6 may be more of a worry.

33.f4 Bf6![steni] 34.Kg2 Kf5 35.Bxf6 Kxf6 36.Kg3 b4 37.Rh1 Kg7 38.h6 
Kh7 39.Kg4 b3 40.Rh2 Nd4 41.Rd2 Nc2
42.Rd3 Kxh6 43.Rxb3 Kxg6 44.Rxb7 Kf6 45.Kf3 e5 draw

steni

33. Kg2 Nf7 34. Bh4 Nh6 35. Bg5 Nf7

IMHO this is the most significant CCT discovery
of recent days.

if smartchess is confident of the ...Bxg3 and ...Bh8
line drawing then we have a draw.

Khalifman wins Tiebreak vs. Nisipeanu 2:0

Commented games FIDE round 6 at

http://www.fortunecity.de/olympia/maradona/151/

Please note new address and bookmark accordingly.

best viewed at my page: 
http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html 

Kasparov proclaims game "the most complicated and analyzed game 
in the history of chess," Wall Street Journal 8/12/99 "It's 
quite annoying from my point of view because if I do a second-quality 
move in this game, there's just no way out." Does he mean 16. 
a4?! 

The game so far: 

[Site "Microsoft Gaming Zone"] 

[White "Kasparov, G."] 

[Black "The World"] 

[ECO "B52"] 

[EventDate "1999.??.??"] 

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. 
O-O g6 8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Bg7 10. Nde2 Qe6 {N (Krush) The "World 
Variation"} 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Nc7+ Kd7 13. Nxa8 Qxc4 14. Nb6+ axb6 
15. Nc3 Ra8 {(Speelman)} 16. a4 16... Ne4 17. Nxe4 17... Qxe4 18. Qb3 
18... f5 (GM School - Khalifman)} 19. Bg5 19... Qb4 {(Jason Van 
Eaton)} 20. Qf7 Be5 {(Brian McCarthy)} 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. 
Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7  Bd4 26. Qb3 f4 {{Yasha}}27. Qf7 Be5 
28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 (above designations as given by 
analyst US Women's champion Irina Krush: www.smartchess.com): 

World Annoys Kasparov!     World Bluffs Kasparov!? 

Outline 8/11/99 Predicting   31. Qxe6 Score of Predictions so far 
15-1 (Qf5+?!) 

Recommending: 30.... Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 Bg3 
"CM finds 35...Bh7! after 75 hours and switches from 33...b4 back 
to 33...Bxg3. " CC Team. It is based on a bishop sacrifice that 
need clarifying, hence its appearance here. 

Garry has tried to sidestep our mountain of ...e6 analysis, but did 
he do anything else? He transposes to a line I had as recommended 
from the middle of last week till yesterday. Clearly the answer lies 
in white's g pawn. Can he play g4 instead of trading? Can he play g3 
or g4 once he does play Qxe6? The best way to look at this 
fascinating ending is by a concept introduced to me by one of my 
favorite Russian authors: Eugene Znosko-Borovsky, related sqaures. We 
have forcing sets of moves that can happen in many different 
sequences, and GK is a master of seeing the subtle difference. I 
believe that Garri may have considered Qf7  a harmless prod and that 
he could retreat to other lines without losing a tempo if needed, but 
our plans of e6 and Qg4 spoil that. Gary needs a real plan to finish 
the game, whatever the result, and we need to be as ready as 
possible. 

Developments! Best new development of the day is an f3 idea: I just 
can't convince my computer Bxg3 isn't good after Qxe6 Kex6 32 g3 fg 
33 fg, I ran it out to a billion nodes and it liked Bxg3, so i did it 
again, the result, pv h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Bd4 Be3 Be5 
Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 -7 [Zarkov] 1.17 billion nodes. +. The latest try is 
b4 and usually the 1st thing to look at in all lines, however if both 
moves are causing decent white positions, we need to think about it 
very carefully. I will verify this and other new developments for my 
final Qe6 outline. Zarkov's quick take on the computer chess teams 
expected line yesterday is inthe middle of the other beasts 30.Qf5+ 
Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 b3 35. Bf4  and 
35...Bd4+ 36.Kg2 b2 37.Kf3 b5 38.Rh1 d5 39.h6 Kf7 40.h7 Bh8. +38 at 
10 million nodes. My current recommendation is not based on any 
secret knowledge, just trying to direct attention to all  playable 
options. 

There are many new ideas after Qf5+ Qe6, g4!?, Qxe6 Kxe6 g3 and also 
ideas of Bc1 if we try f3. All moves have been looked at, but none to 
the 20 move level we had ...e6. The world has strengthened it defense 
to Qd3 in the initial line suggested by the Computer Chess Club: 
25.Qf7 Bd4 Logray 26. Qb3 26...f4 27. Qf7 Be5 28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 
30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qd3 Qc4 32. Rd1 Qxd3 33. Rxd3 e6 5/14 +0.17 35+ 
hours CM6K suggested by Krush to refute 25.Qf7; Crafty rates end pos. 
+1.33 @ 12ply. now 31...Qg4 and Nd4 are both good plans scoring well 
on the CC Club. By far our biggest pressing need is deciding whether 
to play ..b4 or Bxg3 in the g3 line. 

MAIN LINE: Garry has entered the old main line, first appearing at 
the computer chess club site on 8/10/99. After having played out the 
pawn race in a mock game, I feel confident in black's position. The 
computer evaluations have been steadily improving since the key Bd4 
juncture. IM Orlov feels black is better and said if Kasparov doesn't 
make a draw he will be playing for the loss! To underline just how 
...e6 fit in that exact position  Qf8-f5, ...e6 played now is rated 
at +350! 

We are left with  the pawn race. He repeated Qf7 to fix our weakness 
and tame our bishop. We have responded by sealing off his queen and 
bishop so we can try to queen our pawn and discourage any queen 
trades that bring bad technical endings! Did we succeed? It looks 
that way so far! 

A) 30, Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qg6 b4 32.Rb1 b5 33.Qd3 Qg4 34.Qxb5 Qxg5 35.Qb7+ 
Ke6 36.Qxc6 Qxh6 37.Rxb4 Qd1+ 38.Kh2 Qh5+ 39.Kg1 full 18 0.00 
>20h rb crafty 16.15 

B) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qd3 (Qb1 can also be met by the Qg4-f3 plan) 31. 
... Qg4 (It seems Qc4 is not needed but the CC Club suggests b4 as a 
winning attempt! see B3) 32. Qxb5 f3 33. Qxb7+ Kd8 34. g3 Bxg3 35. 
Qb6+ Kd7 36. Qb7+ Kd8 14 +0.00 (draw) Aaron Crafty 16.13 SmartFAQ 
8/11 Line E5a3) Pawn race looks fine. 

B1) 32. Qh3 Qxh3 33. gxh3 Ke6 = 

B2) 32. Qxb5 f3 33. Qxb7+ Kd8 34. Be7+!? Nxe7 35. Qxf3 Qxf3 36 gxf3 
Nf5 37 Re1 Kd7 38. Kf1 Bf6 (not Nd4 Rxe5! General Moe) 39.f4 Bc3 
40.Re4 d5 41.Ra4 Nd4 42.Ra3 Nb5 43.Rb3 Kc6  and Zarkov +58 after 14 
million nodes but it is hard to see white winning with his split 
pawns. 

B3) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qd3) b4 32.Rc1 jb 32...Nd4 33. f3 Qf7 34. Rc4 Ne6 
35. Bh4 Qxh5 36. Be1 Bc3 37. Bxc3 bxc3 38. Qxc3 b5 17 -0.63 8h crafty 
16.15/solaris SmartFAQ 8/11 Line E5a32; crafty rates end pos. -0.61 @ 
11ply 

C) 30. Qf5 Qe6 31. g4!? This line is the subject of much debate, I 
will give Zarkov's take, Nd4 has been hot and cold on the BBS and 
Qxf5 risks a possible f6 (Ross Amman) queening, but seems the best 
until an exact plan is found. Crafty agrees (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4 rb 
31...Qxf5 32. gxf5 Nd4 33. Kg2 f3+ 34. Kh3 Nxf5 35. Rb1 e6 36. h6 Nd4 
37. Kg4 Kc6 38. Be3 18 -0.12 13h crafty 16.15 ) 31...Qxf5 32.gxf5 Nd4 
33.Kg2 Nxf5 34.Re1 Bc3 35.Rb1 Nd4 36.Bxf4 e6 37.h6 b4 Zarkov at 80 
million nodes -12, however Zarkov flirts with +08 for a while. This 
line needs to be clarified, but does not seem dangerous. 

C1) Past 90million nodes, Zarkov likes white again, but still close 
to even. 31...Qxf5 32.gxf5 Nd4 33.Kg2 Nxf5 34.Re1 Bc3 35.Rb1 Nd4 
36.h6 Ne6 37.Rxb5 Nxg5 38.Rxg5 e6 +8 97 million nodes. 

C2) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4 b4 32.Kg2 b3 33.h6 b2 (FAQ; one line played out 
on the BBS is : 34.Qxe6+ Kxe6 35.h7 f3+ 36. Kxf3 Nd4+ 37. Ke3 Nc2+ 
38. Kd3 Na3 39. f4 Bh8 40. Re1+ Kd7  41. Rxe7+ Kc6 42. Re1 b1=Q+ 43. 
Rxb1 Nxb1 44. f5 Nc3 45. f6 Na4! 46. f7 Nc5+ 47. Kd2 Ne6 48. Be7 Kd7! 
draw. "DBC" 

C2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4) Qxf5 32.gxf5 Nd4 33.Kg2 f3+ 34.Kh3 Nxf5 35. 
h6 e6 36. h7 Bh8 37. Kg4 d5 38. Rb1 Nd4 39. Be3 Kc6 40. Bxd4 Bxd4 41. 
Kxf3 b6 42. Rc1+ Kd7 43. Rh1 Bh8 44. Rc1 (full 18 +0.20 ~3.5h crafty 
16.15 can't see where we're going wrong... FAQ doesn't consider 
...f3+ rb ) 

C2b (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4 Qxf5 32.gxf5) Nd8!? (an idea of mine from Rh8 
lines!) 33. Kg2 Nf7 34. Bh4 Nh6 35. Bg5 Nf7 full 20 0.00 8h crafty 
16.15 Smart FAQ 8/18 Line E - draw 

D) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g4 fxg3 and transposes to below is the 
current recommendation. 

E) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33 f4 (this tricky try gets 
met by more tricks) Kf5! 34. Kg2 Bd4 (Rh1 b4 h6 b3 h7 b2 Kh3 d5 Kxg3 
Bh8 -16 [Zarkov]) 35 h6 b4 36 Rd1!? (Ross Amman 36. Rf3?! Bh8 Rb3 
(chessmasterone Rxg3=) and d5 or 37...e5 38.Kxg3 e4 39.Rb1 d5 40.Kf2 
d4 41.Ke2 Kg6 42.Rb3 b5 -56 10 million nodes Zarkov) this position 
has been discussed by the BBS and the best line is not clear, but it 
seems we are equal  as per Zark:) 36...Bh8 37.Rd5+ e5 38.Kxg3 b3 
39.Rxd6 b2 40.Rd1 Nd4 41.Kf2 exf4 42.Bd8 Be5 -26 at 31 million nodes 
Zarkov 

E1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3) 33.fxg3 Bxg3 (Can we reall 
do this?) 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7! 36.Rf8 ("I think 36.Bh6 may be 
more of a worry." R.Bean CC Team) b4 37. Rf3 (what?! rb) Ne5 38. 
Rg3 Bh8 full 14 -0.06 21min crafty 16.15 ("can white win!? we can 
always play 33...b4, of course" rb ) 

E1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 
Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 ) 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 38...Kd5 39. Kf2 b3 40. Bc1 e5 
41. Rh1 b5 42. Rd1+ Kc5 43. Be3+ Kb4 44. Bc1 Nd4 45. Bb2 Kc4 46. Rc1+ 
Kd5 47.Rd1 Kc5 48. Bxd4+ exd4 49. Rc1+ Kd5 50. Kf3 full 18 -0.08 13h 
crafty 16.13 (who knows... rb) 

E1b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7) 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1 Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 Bh8 40.Bxb4 13/14 
+0.18 17 hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 333Mhz " NEW 
IDEA. First CM gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (lost end-game) then it changed line to 33.fxg3 b4 34. 
Bf4 Bc3 35.h6 b3 (lost end-game). Now it changed back to 33. .. Bxg3 
and the end-game seems DRAW thanks to 35" Raimondo D'Ambrosio. 

E1c) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7!) 36.Bh6 (R.Bean CC Team) This needs to be checked, but at 
57 million nodes; 36...Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bh8 39.Rf8 Be5 40.Bf4 
Bd4 41.Be3 Bc3 42.Kf3 Ne5+ 43.Ke2 Nf7 -19 Zarkov 

E2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3) b4 34. Rb1 Bxg3 
35.Bd2 Kf5 36.Bxb4 Kg5 37.Kg2 Be5 38.Bd2+ Kxh5 39.Rxb7 d5 -20 CC Club 

E2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34. Kf2 b3 
(34...Kf5 35.Bf4 Bf6 36.Kf3 Nd4+ 15/31 +.23 5h Hiarcs 7.32 TM ) 
35.Bf4 b2 35.Bxe5 Nxe5 36.Ke2 Ng4 37.Rb1Nf6 38. Rxb1Nxh5 10/13 +0.13 
20 hours CM6000 Pentium 133Mhz selective search 6 Raimondo D'Ambrosio 
Smart FAQ 8/18 Line F2 

E2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34.g4 (rb) b3 
35.Bf4 (Bc3 (35...Bd4+ 36. Kg2 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. h6 Nd3 39. Kf3 Kf5 
40. Bd2 Nc1 41. Rxc1 bxc1=Q 42. Bxc1 Kg6 +0.23 13h crafty ) 36. g5 
Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 41. g7 Bxg7 42. 
hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 13h crafty 16.15 
tablebases would probably solve that last position; TB says draw -jb 

E2a1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3) 
35.h6 b3 (12/13 +0.20 3hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 
333Mhz CM6k first gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (+0.08) (then it changed line Raimondo D'Ambrosio) 

E2b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 ) Bd4+ 
35.Kg2 b3 36. g4 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. Bd2 Nd3 39. Rb1 Ne5 40. g6 Nc4 41. 
Bb4 Kf5 42. Rh1 Ne3+ 43. Kg3 Nc2 18 +0.40 7h crafty 16.15/solaris 
w/TB end pos. -0.37 @ 14ply jb 

E2b1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 jb 
34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. g4 ) 36...Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 
Kc4 16 +0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris see below 

E2b2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 ) 34. g4 b3 
35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 (37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 Kc4 16 
+0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris) b2 38.Kf3 Bc3 39.g5 e5 40.Be3 Ne7 
41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5 17 +0.58 12h crafty 16.15 
"personally I find it hard to believe that black is holding this 
" rb. 

E2b2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 b3 
35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 )36. ... b2 37.Kf3 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 Depth 12/14 
+0.18 (White) 53 hrs @ 10:30 PM PST 8/19 (400MHz) CM6K Smart FAQ 8/18 
Line F2b2. CM6K switched from 33...Bxg3 to 33...b4 after thirty-some 
hours.) 

E2b3) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.g4 b3) 
35.Bf4 Bc3 36. g5 Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 
41. g7 Bxg7 42. hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 
13h crafty 16.15 rb tablebases would probably solve that last 
position; TB says draw -jb 

Conclusion: Garri has left the most analyzed line in the most 
analyzed game, only to go to one of the next most analyzed 
comtinuation. He probably will try a g pawn manuever as opposed to a 
queen retreat. We need a complete line vs 32 g3 and the outlook 
remains positive. 

(Computer Chess Club) 
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?method=reportRows&listname=computergang&tbl
=1&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&start_at=0&prntRpt=1 

Thanks to everyone on the Compter Chess Team! 

http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

The latest figures prove that all votes are counted, even votes for 
illegal moves. We had only 5 legal moves last time, and the vote 
percentages quoted by microsoft add up to 98.5%.

The minimum number of voters from the figures quoted is 3519. This 
means that, deliberately or otherwise, at least 53 people (probably 
more like 150) voted for illegal moves last time. Does microsoft 
count a vote for an illegal move as a vote for "...resigns"? 
Just wondering.

It will be interesting to see the figures if Kasparov decides to 
exchange queens. There are only 4 legal replies to 31. Qxe6+, so it 
will be interesting to see if microsoft also displays the percentage 
of votes for the most popular illegal move!

Okay, let's get one thing straight... this is not a personal 
attack... but I think some of what you've been saying recently is a 
bit unfair... if people want to analyse other lines then why 
shouldn't they? - as long as the majority are analysing the main line 
then surely it doesn't particularly matter?...

Anyway, I'd just like your opinion on something....

How do you know that GK is going to play Qxe6+ now?

Surely it's a bad line for him to follow if all it does is lead to a 
draw like you say?

Andy

On Fri Aug 20 02:19:55, BMcC Qe6 g4 = , qxe6 kxe6 g3 fg3 f4 =  wrote:

Recommending: 30.... Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 Bg3 
"CM finds 35...Bh7! after 75 hours and switches from 33...b4 back 
to 33...Bxg3. " CC Team. It is based on a bishop sacrifice that 
need clarifying, hence its appearance here. 

The CC team quote has 35...Bh7, but with no white sq bishop, its kind 
of hard, 35...Bg7 is correct.



> best viewed at my page: 
> http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html 
> 
> Kasparov proclaims game "the most complicated and analyzed game 
> in the history of chess," Wall Street Journal 8/12/99 "It's 
> quite annoying from my point of view because if I do a second-quality 
> move in this game, there's just no way out." Does he mean 16. 
> a4?! 
> 
> The game so far: 
> 
> [Site "Microsoft Gaming Zone"] 
> 
> [White "Kasparov, G."] 
> 
> [Black "The World"] 
> 
> [ECO "B52"] 
> 
> [EventDate "1999.??.??"] 
> 
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. 
> O-O g6 8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Bg7 10. Nde2 Qe6 {N (Krush) The "World 
> Variation"} 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Nc7+ Kd7 13. Nxa8 Qxc4 14. Nb6+ axb6 
> 15. Nc3 Ra8 {(Speelman)} 16. a4 16... Ne4 17. Nxe4 17... Qxe4 18. Qb3 
> 18... f5 (GM School - Khalifman)} 19. Bg5 19... Qb4 {(Jason Van 
> Eaton)} 20. Qf7 Be5 {(Brian McCarthy)} 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. 
> Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7  Bd4 26. Qb3 f4 {{Yasha}}27. Qf7 Be5 
> 28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 (above designations as given by 
> analyst US Women's champion Irina Krush: www.smartchess.com): 
> 
> World Annoys Kasparov!     World Bluffs Kasparov!? 
> 
> Outline 8/11/99 Predicting   31. Qxe6 Score of Predictions so far 
> 15-1 (Qf5+?!) 
> 
> Recommending: 30.... Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 Bg3 
> "CM finds 35...Bh7! after 75 hours and switches from 33...b4 back 
> to 33...Bxg3. " CC Team. It is based on a bishop sacrifice that 
> need clarifying, hence its appearance here. 
> 
> Garry has tried to sidestep our mountain of ...e6 analysis, but did 
> he do anything else? He transposes to a line I had as recommended 
> from the middle of last week till yesterday. Clearly the answer lies 
> in white's g pawn. Can he play g4 instead of trading? Can he play g3 
> or g4 once he does play Qxe6? The best way to look at this 
> fascinating ending is by a concept introduced to me by one of my 
> favorite Russian authors: Eugene Znosko-Borovsky, related sqaures. We 
> have forcing sets of moves that can happen in many different 
> sequences, and GK is a master of seeing the subtle difference. I 
> believe that Garri may have considered Qf7  a harmless prod and that 
> he could retreat to other lines without losing a tempo if needed, but 
> our plans of e6 and Qg4 spoil that. Gary needs a real plan to finish 
> the game, whatever the result, and we need to be as ready as 
> possible. 
> 
> Developments! Best new development of the day is an f3 idea: I just 
> can't convince my computer Bxg3 isn't good after Qxe6 Kex6 32 g3 fg 
> 33 fg, I ran it out to a billion nodes and it liked Bxg3, so i did it 
> again, the result, pv h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Bd4 Be3 Be5 
> Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 -7 [Zarkov] 1.17 billion nodes. +. The latest try is 
> b4 and usually the 1st thing to look at in all lines, however if both 
> moves are causing decent white positions, we need to think about it 
> very carefully. I will verify this and other new developments for my 
> final Qe6 outline. Zarkov's quick take on the computer chess teams 
> expected line yesterday is inthe middle of the other beasts 30.Qf5+ 
> Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 b3 35. Bf4  and 
> 35...Bd4+ 36.Kg2 b2 37.Kf3 b5 38.Rh1 d5 39.h6 Kf7 40.h7 Bh8. +38 at 
> 10 million nodes. My current recommendation is not based on any 
> secret knowledge, just trying to direct attention to all  playable 
> options. 
> 
> There are many new ideas after Qf5+ Qe6, g4!?, Qxe6 Kxe6 g3 and also 
> ideas of Bc1 if we try f3. All moves have been looked at, but none to 
> the 20 move level we had ...e6. The world has strengthened it defense 
> to Qd3 in the initial line suggested by the Computer Chess Club: 
> 25.Qf7 Bd4 Logray 26. Qb3 26...f4 27. Qf7 Be5 28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 
> 30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qd3 Qc4 32. Rd1 Qxd3 33. Rxd3 e6 5/14 +0.17 35+ 
> hours CM6K suggested by Krush to refute 25.Qf7; Crafty rates end pos. 
> +1.33 @ 12ply. now 31...Qg4 and Nd4 are both good plans scoring well 
> on the CC Club. By far our biggest pressing need is deciding whether 
> to play ..b4 or Bxg3 in the g3 line. 
> 
> MAIN LINE: Garry has entered the old main line, first appearing at 
> the computer chess club site on 8/10/99. After having played out the 
> pawn race in a mock game, I feel confident in black's position. The 
> computer evaluations have been steadily improving since the key Bd4 
> juncture. IM Orlov feels black is better and said if Kasparov doesn't 
> make a draw he will be playing for the loss! To underline just how 
> ...e6 fit in that exact position  Qf8-f5, ...e6 played now is rated 
> at +350! 
> 
> We are left with  the pawn race. He repeated Qf7 to fix our weakness 
> and tame our bishop. We have responded by sealing off his queen and 
> bishop so we can try to queen our pawn and discourage any queen 
> trades that bring bad technical endings! Did we succeed? It looks 
> that way so far! 
> 
> A) 30, Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qg6 b4 32.Rb1 b5 33.Qd3 Qg4 34.Qxb5 Qxg5 35.Qb7+ 
> Ke6 36.Qxc6 Qxh6 37.Rxb4 Qd1+ 38.Kh2 Qh5+ 39.Kg1 full 18 0.00 
> >20h rb crafty 16.15 
> 
> B) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qd3 (Qb1 can also be met by the Qg4-f3 plan) 31. 
> ... Qg4 (It seems Qc4 is not needed but the CC Club suggests b4 as a 
> winning attempt! see B3) 32. Qxb5 f3 33. Qxb7+ Kd8 34. g3 Bxg3 35. 
> Qb6+ Kd7 36. Qb7+ Kd8 14 +0.00 (draw) Aaron Crafty 16.13 SmartFAQ 
> 8/11 Line E5a3) Pawn race looks fine. 
> 
> B1) 32. Qh3 Qxh3 33. gxh3 Ke6 = 
> 
> B2) 32. Qxb5 f3 33. Qxb7+ Kd8 34. Be7+!? Nxe7 35. Qxf3 Qxf3 36 gxf3 
> Nf5 37 Re1 Kd7 38. Kf1 Bf6 (not Nd4 Rxe5! General Moe) 39.f4 Bc3 
> 40.Re4 d5 41.Ra4 Nd4 42.Ra3 Nb5 43.Rb3 Kc6  and Zarkov +58 after 14 
> million nodes but it is hard to see white winning with his split 
> pawns. 
> 
> B3) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qd3) b4 32.Rc1 jb 32...Nd4 33. f3 Qf7 34. Rc4 Ne6 
> 35. Bh4 Qxh5 36. Be1 Bc3 37. Bxc3 bxc3 38. Qxc3 b5 17 -0.63 8h crafty 
> 16.15/solaris SmartFAQ 8/11 Line E5a32; crafty rates end pos. -0.61 @ 
> 11ply 
> 
> C) 30. Qf5 Qe6 31. g4!? This line is the subject of much debate, I 
> will give Zarkov's take, Nd4 has been hot and cold on the BBS and 
> Qxf5 risks a possible f6 (Ross Amman) queening, but seems the best 
> until an exact plan is found. Crafty agrees (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4 rb 
> 31...Qxf5 32. gxf5 Nd4 33. Kg2 f3+ 34. Kh3 Nxf5 35. Rb1 e6 36. h6 Nd4 
> 37. Kg4 Kc6 38. Be3 18 -0.12 13h crafty 16.15 ) 31...Qxf5 32.gxf5 Nd4 
> 33.Kg2 Nxf5 34.Re1 Bc3 35.Rb1 Nd4 36.Bxf4 e6 37.h6 b4 Zarkov at 80 
> million nodes -12, however Zarkov flirts with +08 for a while. This 
> line needs to be clarified, but does not seem dangerous. 
> 
> C1) Past 90million nodes, Zarkov likes white again, but still close 
> to even. 31...Qxf5 32.gxf5 Nd4 33.Kg2 Nxf5 34.Re1 Bc3 35.Rb1 Nd4 
> 36.h6 Ne6 37.Rxb5 Nxg5 38.Rxg5 e6 +8 97 million nodes. 
> 
> C2) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4 b4 32.Kg2 b3 33.h6 b2 (FAQ; one line played out 
> on the BBS is : 34.Qxe6+ Kxe6 35.h7 f3+ 36. Kxf3 Nd4+ 37. Ke3 Nc2+ 
> 38. Kd3 Na3 39. f4 Bh8 40. Re1+ Kd7  41. Rxe7+ Kc6 42. Re1 b1=Q+ 43. 
> Rxb1 Nxb1 44. f5 Nc3 45. f6 Na4! 46. f7 Nc5+ 47. Kd2 Ne6 48. Be7 Kd7! 
> draw. "DBC" 
> 
> C2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4) Qxf5 32.gxf5 Nd4 33.Kg2 f3+ 34.Kh3 Nxf5 35. 
> h6 e6 36. h7 Bh8 37. Kg4 d5 38. Rb1 Nd4 39. Be3 Kc6 40. Bxd4 Bxd4 41. 
> Kxf3 b6 42. Rc1+ Kd7 43. Rh1 Bh8 44. Rc1 (full 18 +0.20 ~3.5h crafty 
> 16.15 can't see where we're going wrong... FAQ doesn't consider 
> ...f3+ rb ) 
> 
> C2b (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.g4 Qxf5 32.gxf5) Nd8!? (an idea of mine from Rh8 
> lines!) 33. Kg2 Nf7 34. Bh4 Nh6 35. Bg5 Nf7 full 20 0.00 8h crafty 
> 16.15 Smart FAQ 8/18 Line E - draw 
> 
> D) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g4 fxg3 and transposes to below is the 
> current recommendation. 
> 
> E) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33 f4 (this tricky try gets 
> met by more tricks) Kf5! 34. Kg2 Bd4 (Rh1 b4 h6 b3 h7 b2 Kh3 d5 Kxg3 
> Bh8 -16 [Zarkov]) 35 h6 b4 36 Rd1!? (Ross Amman 36. Rf3?! Bh8 Rb3 
> (chessmasterone Rxg3=) and d5 or 37...e5 38.Kxg3 e4 39.Rb1 d5 40.Kf2 
> d4 41.Ke2 Kg6 42.Rb3 b5 -56 10 million nodes Zarkov) this position 
> has been discussed by the BBS and the best line is not clear, but it 
> seems we are equal  as per Zark:) 36...Bh8 37.Rd5+ e5 38.Kxg3 b3 
> 39.Rxd6 b2 40.Rd1 Nd4 41.Kf2 exf4 42.Bd8 Be5 -26 at 31 million nodes 
> Zarkov 
> 
> E1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3) 33.fxg3 Bxg3 (Can we reall 
> do this?) 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7! 36.Rf8 ("I think 36.Bh6 may be 
> more of a worry." R.Bean CC Team) b4 37. Rf3 (what?! rb) Ne5 38. 
> Rg3 Bh8 full 14 -0.06 21min crafty 16.15 ("can white win!? we can 
> always play 33...b4, of course" rb ) 
> 
> E1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 
> Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 ) 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 38...Kd5 39. Kf2 b3 40. Bc1 e5 
> 41. Rh1 b5 42. Rd1+ Kc5 43. Be3+ Kb4 44. Bc1 Nd4 45. Bb2 Kc4 46. Rc1+ 
> Kd5 47.Rd1 Kc5 48. Bxd4+ exd4 49. Rc1+ Kd5 50. Kf3 full 18 -0.08 13h 
> crafty 16.13 (who knows... rb) 
> 
> E1b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
> 35.h7 Bg7) 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1 Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 Bh8 40.Bxb4 13/14 
> +0.18 17 hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 333Mhz " NEW 
> IDEA. First CM gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
> Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (lost end-game) then it changed line to 33.fxg3 b4 34. 
> Bf4 Bc3 35.h6 b3 (lost end-game). Now it changed back to 33. .. Bxg3 
> and the end-game seems DRAW thanks to 35" Raimondo D'Ambrosio. 
> 
> E1c) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
> 35.h7 Bg7!) 36.Bh6 (R.Bean CC Team) This needs to be checked, but at 
> 57 million nodes; 36...Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bh8 39.Rf8 Be5 40.Bf4 
> Bd4 41.Be3 Bc3 42.Kf3 Ne5+ 43.Ke2 Nf7 -19 Zarkov 
> 
> E2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3) b4 34. Rb1 Bxg3 
> 35.Bd2 Kf5 36.Bxb4 Kg5 37.Kg2 Be5 38.Bd2+ Kxh5 39.Rxb7 d5 -20 CC Club 
> 
> E2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34. Kf2 b3 
> (34...Kf5 35.Bf4 Bf6 36.Kf3 Nd4+ 15/31 +.23 5h Hiarcs 7.32 TM ) 
> 35.Bf4 b2 35.Bxe5 Nxe5 36.Ke2 Ng4 37.Rb1Nf6 38. Rxb1Nxh5 10/13 +0.13 
> 20 hours CM6000 Pentium 133Mhz selective search 6 Raimondo D'Ambrosio 
> Smart FAQ 8/18 Line F2 
> 
> E2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34.g4 (rb) b3 
> 35.Bf4 (Bc3 (35...Bd4+ 36. Kg2 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. h6 Nd3 39. Kf3 Kf5 
> 40. Bd2 Nc1 41. Rxc1 bxc1=Q 42. Bxc1 Kg6 +0.23 13h crafty ) 36. g5 
> Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 41. g7 Bxg7 42. 
> hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 13h crafty 16.15 
> tablebases would probably solve that last position; TB says draw -jb 
> 
> E2a1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3) 
> 35.h6 b3 (12/13 +0.20 3hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 
> 333Mhz CM6k first gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
> Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (+0.08) (then it changed line Raimondo D'Ambrosio) 
> 
> E2b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 ) Bd4+ 
> 35.Kg2 b3 36. g4 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. Bd2 Nd3 39. Rb1 Ne5 40. g6 Nc4 41. 
> Bb4 Kf5 42. Rh1 Ne3+ 43. Kg3 Nc2 18 +0.40 7h crafty 16.15/solaris 
> w/TB end pos. -0.37 @ 14ply jb 
> 
> E2b1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 jb 
> 34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. g4 ) 36...Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 
> Kc4 16 +0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris see below 
> 
> E2b2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 ) 34. g4 b3 
> 35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 (37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 Kc4 16 
> +0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris) b2 38.Kf3 Bc3 39.g5 e5 40.Be3 Ne7 
> 41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5 17 +0.58 12h crafty 16.15 
> "personally I find it hard to believe that black is holding this 
> " rb. 
> 
> E2b2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 b3 
> 35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 )36. ... b2 37.Kf3 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 Depth 12/14 
> +0.18 (White) 53 hrs @ 10:30 PM PST 8/19 (400MHz) CM6K Smart FAQ 8/18 
> Line F2b2. CM6K switched from 33...Bxg3 to 33...b4 after thirty-some 
> hours.) 
> 
> E2b3) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.g4 b3) 
> 35.Bf4 Bc3 36. g5 Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 
> 41. g7 Bxg7 42. hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 
> 13h crafty 16.15 rb tablebases would probably solve that last 
> position; TB says draw -jb 
> 
> Conclusion: Garri has left the most analyzed line in the most 
> analyzed game, only to go to one of the next most analyzed 
> comtinuation. He probably will try a g pawn manuever as opposed to a 
> queen retreat. We need a complete line vs 32 g3 and the outlook 
> remains positive. 
> 
> (Computer Chess Club) 
> http://www.egroups.com/wdb?method=reportRows&listname=computergang&tbl
> =1&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&start_at=0&prntRpt=1 
> 
> Thanks to everyone on the Compter Chess Team! 
> 
> http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

On Fri Aug 20 02:31:13, meandyg wrote:

did you follow the initial thread today between Ross A and this guy? 
Not only has he spammed bogus losses for us, forcing good work to be 
put on hold to address his hysteria, much like Spiriev, but he stole 
my analysis and even the title of my post, yet refuses to acknowledge 
that it was my line. And this was after he asked for my help!!
     I can forgive a lot, but I don't forget much. It is clear he 
refuses to address direct hits on his 10 digit dewey decimal system 
and keeps spamming whatever nonsense he feels. 
    Many people have called me the leader, and some have asked me to 
take a role here. I call things the way I see them and I see no 
resason to be nice to someone who responds to 1/2 hr of my work 
refuting his 5 pages of spam line, with no analysis and the smart 
aleck remark "read".



> Okay, let's get one thing straight... this is not a personal 
> attack... but I think some of what you've been saying recently is a 
> bit unfair... if people want to analyse other lines then why 
> shouldn't they? - as long as the majority are analysing the main line 
> then surely it doesn't particularly matter?...
> 
> Anyway, I'd just like your opinion on something....
> 
> How do you know that GK is going to play Qxe6+ now?
> 
> Surely it's a bad line for him to follow if all it does is lead to a 
> draw like you say?
> 
> Andy

On Fri Aug 20 02:36:13, BMcC I treat people who posted we lose diff 
wrote:
If your wisdom is so valuable, why not put your name behind it? If 
you are too afraid of the geeks and trolls, send me an e mail. 

> On Fri Aug 20 02:31:13, meandyg wrote:
> 
> did you follow the initial thread today between Ross A and this guy? 
> Not only has he spammed bogus losses for us, forcing good work to be 
> put on hold to address his hysteria, much like Spiriev, but he stole 
> my analysis and even the title of my post, yet refuses to acknowledge 
> that it was my line. And this was after he asked for my help!!
>      I can forgive a lot, but I don't forget much. It is clear he 
> refuses to address direct hits on his 10 digit dewey decimal system 
> and keeps spamming whatever nonsense he feels. 
>     Many people have called me the leader, and some have asked me to 
> take a role here. I call things the way I see them and I see no 
> resason to be nice to someone who responds to 1/2 hr of my work 
> refuting his 5 pages of spam line, with no analysis and the smart 
> aleck remark "read".
> 
> 
> 
> > Okay, let's get one thing straight... this is not a personal 
> > attack... but I think some of what you've been saying recently is a 
> > bit unfair... if people want to analyse other lines then why 
> > shouldn't they? - as long as the majority are analysing the main line 
> > then surely it doesn't particularly matter?...
> > 
> > Anyway, I'd just like your opinion on something....
> > 
> > How do you know that GK is going to play Qxe6+ now?
> > 
> > Surely it's a bad line for him to follow if all it does is lead to a 
> > draw like you say?
> > 
> > Andy

On Fri Aug 20 02:30:17, Martin Sims wrote:
;)

> The latest figures prove that all votes are counted, even votes for 
> illegal moves. We had only 5 legal moves last time, and the vote 
> percentages quoted by microsoft add up to 98.5%.
> 
> The minimum number of voters from the figures quoted is 3519. This 
> means that, deliberately or otherwise, at least 53 people (probably 
> more like 150) voted for illegal moves last time. Does microsoft 
> count a vote for an illegal move as a vote for "...resigns"? 
> Just wondering.
> 
> It will be interesting to see the figures if Kasparov decides to 
> exchange queens. There are only 4 legal replies to 31. Qxe6+, so it 
> will be interesting to see if microsoft also displays the percentage 
> of votes for the most popular illegal move!

On Fri Aug 20 02:47:17, BMcC and now for your chess question.... 
wrote:

You are a veteran here, I figured you missed the post, When someone 
causes a panic, the board is much harder to keep up with. 


> On Fri Aug 20 02:36:13, BMcC I treat people who posted we lose diff 
> wrote:
> 
>      He has been headed steadily down hill evaluation wise since Bd4 
> and MChessPro says he is worse now. If he wanted to play Qd3, the 1st 
> thing I suspected he was up to, it means not only repeating with Qc4 
> or reinventing somehting he missed when he went to f7, but facing Qg4 
> or b4 which both score well and some endings have been hash tabled 
> out. There are still endings he can reach with a slight edge, if he 
> really wanted to bail out, he could try Qd3 Qg4 Qh3, where he has a 
> cosmetic edge, but it seems no real chance. Hence the fighter in 
> Garri will draw him into the hope he might find something in the g3 
> line, as we are going into a rook vs 4 pawn ending with minors or 
> staying on the defensive with ...b4 allowing the g and h pawns 
> forward.
> 
> That about sums it up from my view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Fri Aug 20 02:31:13, meandyg wrote:
> > 
> > did you follow the initial thread today between Ross A and this guy? 
> > Not only has he spammed bogus losses for us, forcing good work to be 
> > put on hold to address his hysteria, much like Spiriev, but he stole 
> > my analysis and even the title of my post, yet refuses to acknowledge 
> > that it was my line. And this was after he asked for my help!!
> >      I can forgive a lot, but I don't forget much. It is clear he 
> > refuses to address direct hits on his 10 digit dewey decimal system 
> > and keeps spamming whatever nonsense he feels. 
> >     Many people have called me the leader, and some have asked me to 
> > take a role here. I call things the way I see them and I see no 
> > resason to be nice to someone who responds to 1/2 hr of my work 
> > refuting his 5 pages of spam line, with no analysis and the smart 
> > aleck remark "read".
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Okay, let's get one thing straight... this is not a personal 
> > > attack... but I think some of what you've been saying recently is a 
> > > bit unfair... if people want to analyse other lines then why 
> > > shouldn't they? - as long as the majority are analysing the main line 
> > > then surely it doesn't particularly matter?...
> > > 
> > > Anyway, I'd just like your opinion on something....
> > > 
> > > How do you know that GK is going to play Qxe6+ now?
> > > 
> > > Surely it's a bad line for him to follow if all it does is lead to a 
> > > draw like you say?
> > > 
> > > Andy

33.f4, Kf5 , 34.Kg2,Bd4, 35.h6,b436. Rf3 as follows:
Theme: black advances in centre: Sample line

36.Rf3,Bh8,37.Rb3,  d5,  38.Rxg3, e5

39.  Bh4,exf4, 40.Rg8,Bd4

41.  Bf2, Be5?.  42 h7,  b3

43.  Rf8, Kg6     44. H=, Bxh8

45..Rxh8    +1.19    higher plys needed here

Previous:

F5b2112 Chessmasterone Analysts:  36.Rf3,Bh8 (another Bh8 line, but 
may not work this time)
37.Rb3 (Rxg3 which occurs anyway) Kg6, 38.Rxg3,e6 (or e5,or d5. Or 
King  move), 39. Be7+
Kxh6, 40.Bxd6 (again the a3-f8 diagonal key), Bc3 (all others the 
rook active on g5 or e file with
Re3) 41. Bxf8+!,Kh7 42.Rg5!,13/13 ply, b3, 43.Rb5 advantage white, 
b3, 43. Rb5, Nd4 (àNa5?
Bb4,Bxb4,Rxb4,Kg6,Rb5.) 44.Rxb7 advantage white.

Unbelievably we seem to be able to withstand even the h pawn queening 
due to the centralized king we obtained in the opening! Hence the CC 
team was interested in other attempts , like Bh6 , to the new idea 
35...Bg7!

Here my run on Bh6 

29. h5 Qc4 
30. Qf5+ Qe6 
31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 
32. g3 fxg3 
33. fxg3 Bxg3 (Zarkov absolutley agrees with Bg7!pv h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Kg2 
b4 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Bd4 Be3 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 -7 [Zarkov] 1.17 billion 
nodes )

34. h6 Be5 35. h7 Bg7 

pv Rb1 b4 Bd2 Kf7 Bxb4 Kg6 Bd2 Kxh7 Rxb7 -15 [Zarkov] 

36. Bh6 , ok here goes a billion: 1.2 actually, 

pv Bd4+ Kg2 b4 Be3 Bh8 Rf8 Be5 Bf4 Bd4 Be3 Bc3 Kf3 Ne5+ Ke2 Nf7 -19 
[Zarkov]

On Fri Aug 20 02:56:57, Chessmasterone Analyst's 33.f4 line wrote:

There are other people on this BBS u know?


> 33.f4, Kf5 , 34.Kg2,Bd4, 35.h6,b436. Rf3 as follows:
> Theme: black advances in centre: Sample line
> 
> 36.Rf3,Bh8,37.Rb3,  d5,  38.Rxg3, e5
> 
> 39.  Bh4,exf4, 40.Rg8,Bd4
> 
> 41.  Bf2, Be5?.  42 h7,  b3
> 
> 43.  Rf8, Kg6     44. H=, Bxh8
> 
> 45..Rxh8    +1.19    higher plys needed here
> 
> Previous:
> 
> F5b2112 Chessmasterone Analysts:  36.Rf3,Bh8 (another Bh8 line, but 
> may not work this time)
> 37.Rb3 (Rxg3 which occurs anyway) Kg6, 38.Rxg3,e6 (or e5,or d5. Or 
> King  move), 39. Be7+
> Kxh6, 40.Bxd6 (again the a3-f8 diagonal key), Bc3 (all others the 
> rook active on g5 or e file with
> Re3) 41. Bxf8+!,Kh7 42.Rg5!,13/13 ply, b3, 43.Rb5 advantage white, 
> b3, 43. Rb5, Nd4 (Na5?
> Bb4,Bxb4,Rxb4,Kg6,Rb5.) 44.Rxb7 advantage white.
> 
> 
>

thread with most recent post

#


On Fri Aug 20 03:08:45, Chessmasterone Analyst's 33.f4!? wrote:
> thread with most recent post

*

On Fri Aug 20 03:12:42, Chessmasterone Analyst's  wrote:
> #
> 
> 
> On Fri Aug 20 03:08:45, Chessmasterone Analyst's 33.f4!? wrote:
> > thread with most recent post

after ...Ne7 Qf3 Qf3 gf, we don't play ...Ke8?
as in the FAQ, we play ...Nf5! and White's
pawns are quite well blockaded.

32.g3 fxg3
33.f4 Bf6
34.Kg2 Kf5!
35.Bxf6 Kxf6
36.Kg3 b4
37.Rh1 Kg7
38.h6 Kh7
39.Kg4 b3
40.Rh2 Nd4
41.Rd2 Nc2
42.Rd3 Kxh6
43.Rxb3 Kg6
44.Rxb7 Kf6
45.Kf3 e5 draw..

a)
34.h6 Kf7
35.Kg2 Kg6
36.Rh1 Kh7
37.Kxg3 b4
38.Kg4 Bc3
39.Rh3 e6
40.Re3 Nd4
41.f5 exf
42.Kh5 Nc6
43.Re8 b3
44.Rc8 b2
45.Rc7+ Kh8
46.Kg6 Ne5
47.Kh5 Nd7
48.Rxb7 Nc5
49.Rb8+ Kh7
50.Bf4 d5
51.Bd6 Nd7
52.Rb7 b1Q
53.Rxb1 Nf6+
54.Kh4 Kxh6

ok for black

a1)
38.Rb1 d5
39.Kg4 Bh8
40.Kh5 e6
41.Rf1 Nd4
42.Ra1 Nf5
43.Ra5 Ng3+
44.Kh3 b3
better for black

a2)
38.Re1 b3 !

b)
51.Rb5 Nd3
52.Rb7+ Kh8
53.Bd6 f4
54.Kg6 Ne5
55.Kf5 f3
56.Rb8+ Kh7
57.Rb7+ perpetual

.

You gotta give him credit....maybe he's got some wicked move up his 
sleeve that's going to leave us hanging with our pants around our 
ankles....this is gonna be good!!!

How insulting to be told we don't need any move advice today after 
the incredible amount of work put into this ending.


Have any of the N/A analysts (Bacrot/Felecan) ever heard of A PLAN?

THANKS FOR POSTING ALL THIS RELEVANT STUFF
I'VE FELT THAT THIS WAS A TRUELY CLASSIC GAME FOR SOME TIME NOW, AND 
THIS WOULD BE A MOST FITTING END.  PERHAPS KASPAROV FEELS THE SAME. 
WE WILL KNOW SOON ENOUGH.




On Fri Aug 20 13:30:05, IM LS (Pearlcaster) wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> A few days ago I posted some lines showing clear draw after 31.Qxe6+ 
> Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3!(not b4?).
> 
> Now it looks like this line will happen! Here is rest of my analysis 
> of this crusial line. Here you see clear that it is draw even when 
> White has extra rook! The perpetual checks are very nice, and Black 
> draws if he stays with the DIAGONAL CHECKS.
> 
> I clipped the important part from the FAQ and put in my lines. This 
> is obviously the most important line now so everyone needs to work 
> more on these variants. I am almost sure it is good but we need to 
> check for errors. If no errors The World will have a draw!
> 
> Kasparov,G - The World
> 30.Qf5+ Qe6 Microsoft Gaming Zone, 1999
> [SMART-FAQ]
> 
> 33.fxg3 Bxg3! New analysis by "IM LS" and ter Haar indicate 
> that Black can safely play 33...Bxg3! 34.h6 Be5 35.h7
> 
> [35.Rf8? b4! 36.h7 b3 37.Rf6+ exf6 38.h8Q Bd4+ 39.Kg2 b2 40.Qg8+ 
> (40.Qh7 fxg5 41.Qxb7 Ne5 -/+ SmartChess Online) 40...Ke5 41.Kf3 fxg5 
> -/+ ter Haar]
> 
> 35...Bh8! [35...Bg7? 36.Rf8! b4 37.h8Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8+-] 36.Rf8 Ne5 
> 37.Rxh8 Nf3+ 38.Kf2 Nxg5 39.Ke3 b4 40.Kf4 b3! 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8
> 
> [42.Rc8 b1Q 43.h8Q Qf5+ 44.Kh6 Qh3+ 45.Kg7 Qg4+ 46.Kf8 Qf5+ 47.Ke8 
> Qb5+= "IM LS"]
> 
> 42...b1Q 43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kf4!? Another attempt to find escape for the 
> king, but there is not escape! IM LS
> 
> [44.Kh6 Qh2+ 45.Kg7 Qg3+ 46.Kh7 Qh4+ 47.Kg8 Qxh8+ 48.Kxh8 d5 49.Kg7 
> Ke5 50.Kf7 (50.Kg6 d4 51.Kg5 d3 52.Kg4 Ke4=) 50...d4 51.Kxe7 d3 
> 52.Rd8 Ke4 53.Kd6 d2 54.Kc5 Ke3 55.Kc4 Ke2= "IM LS"]
> 
> 44...Qf2+ 45.Ke4 Qe2+ 46.Kd4 Qd2+ 47.Kc4 Qe2+! Important diagonal 
> checks!
> 
> [47...d5+!? 48.Kb5
> (48.Kb3 Qd1+ 49.Ka2 Qa4+ 50.Kb2 Qb5+ 51.Kc1 Qc4+ 52.Kd2 Qa2+ 53.Ke3 
> Qb3+ 54.Kf2 Qc2+ 55.Kg3 Qg6+ 56.Kh3 Qd3+ 57.Kg2 Qg6+= White's king 
> can't escape from the checks.) 
> 48...Qd3+ 49.Ka4 
> (49.Kb6 Qa6+ 50.Kc7 Qc6+ 51.Kb8 Qd6+ 52.Kxb7 Qb4+=)
> 49...Qa6+ 50.Kb3 Qc4+ 51.Kb2 Qe2+ 52.Kb1 Qd1+ 53.Ka2 Qa4+ And draw 
> like in 48.Kb3 variant.]
> 
> 48.Kb3
> 
> [48.Kb4 Qe4+ 49.Kb3 (49.Kb5 Qd5+ 50.Kb6 Qc5+ 51.Kxb7 Qb5+=) 49...Qd5+ 
> 50.Kc3 Qa5+ 51.Kc2 Qa4+ 52.Kc1 Qc4+ 53.Kd2 Qd5+=]
> 
> 48...Qd1+ 49.Ka2 Qa4+ And draw!

On Fri Aug 20 13:58:14, Debbie wrote:
> On Fri Aug 20 13:56:37, Chantal wrote:
> > I prefered g4, I think it offered white 
better chances than Qxe6, but 
> > who am I to juge GK?
> 
> Gary, like most men, can never find the "G" 
spot.

A witticism and a wit.

"In the "Kasparov vs. The rest of the world" game we 
would need plenty of self-control so as not to get dizzy from all the 
witty maneuvers and unexpected tactical attacks. It became obvious 
long ago that the "GM School" of chess became the amateurs’ 
main consultant. Be are facing a huge analytical center, a helping 
hand from computer monsters like Crafty and thousands of 
recommendations from the Internet surfers. It is even hard to say if 
the tension reached its peak in the game or are in for another dash 
of feverish calculating of the most complex lines? Many call this 
dual a beautiful show, but I think that we’re witnessing a unique 
experiment on the creation of a global chess laboratory. Can you 
imagine what would happen if these matches become routine and assume 
a thematic character? Thousands of priceless opening novelties, 
thousands of effective combinations and positions. A boundless ocean 
of chess creativity."

Valery Tsaturjan (writer of the quote)

found it neat, maybe you will too.

nt

On Fri Aug 20 14:32:48, TonyC wrote:
> nt

On Fri Aug 20 14:26:58, KDP2561 wrote:
> Why? Well, it threatens to win a pawn with 33. Bxf4.
> And 32...Kf5 doesn't seem like a nice ending to me.
> 32. g3 Kf5
> 33. Bxf4 Bxf4
> 34. Pxf4 Kxf4
> 35. h6 Ne5(the king can't catch the pawn)
> 36. h7 Ng6
> 37. Rc1 or Rb1 or Re1
> And things look bad to me.
> 
> Since we can't guard the pawn f4 after 32. g3 what is our proper 
> reply? If we play f4Xg3 then:
> 33. f2Xg3 (and our king cannot reach the H-file)

try:

32 g3   f3 at least try some moves from here, not Kf5

like...

33 Rb1  b4
34 g4   Kf7
35 Be3  Kg7
36 g5   b5  and things kind of stall out.

On Fri Aug 20 13:30:05, IM LS (Pearlcaster) wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> A few days ago I posted some lines showing clear draw after 31.Qxe6+ 
> Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3!(not b4?).
> 
> Now it looks like this line will happen! Here is rest of my analysis 
> of this crusial line. Here you see clear that it is draw even when 
> White has extra rook! The perpetual checks are very nice, and Black 
> draws if he stays with the DIAGONAL CHECKS.
> 
> I clipped the important part from the FAQ and put in my lines. This 
> is obviously the most important line now so everyone needs to work 
> more on these variants. I am almost sure it is good but we need to 
> check for errors. If no errors The World will have a draw!

I did look at your line without having seen this post. See 
http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/pi/46191.asp .

> [...]
> 
> [47...d5+!? 48.Kb5
> (48.Kb3 Qd1+ 49.Ka2 Qa4+ 50.Kb2 Qb5+ 51.Kc1 Qc4+ 52.Kd2 Qa2+ 53.Ke3 
> Qb3+ 54.Kf2 Qc2+ 55.Kg3 Qg6+ 56.Kh3 Qd3+ 57.Kg2 Qg6+= White's king 
> can't escape from the checks.)

Here my line was 50. ... Qb4+ 51. Kc2 Qe4+ 52. Kd2 Qg2+ 53. Kc3! Qg3+ 
54. Kb2 but I agree checking from the "left" side (52. ... 
Qa2+ etc.) is better.

However, what about 54. Kf4!? (note king back to f4, but Q on b3 
instead of g1). 54. ...Qb4+ 55. Kg3 Qe1+ 56. Rf2.
  
> [...]

On Fri Aug 20 14:56:07, dr. Reidenschneider wrote:
> Red Alert!
> Dr. Erwin Reidenschneider calling all 
> computerpeople and serious analysts
> Is this dangerous?
> 
> 31. Qxe6 Kxe6
> 32. g3 fxg3
> 33. fxg3 Bxg3
> 34. h6 Be5
> 35. h7 Bh8
> 36. Bc1!? TN dr. Reidenschneider
> 
> the idea is to move the bishop out of the Ne5-f3xg5 function 
> maintaining the threat Rf8 as well creating a new threat in form of 
> Rf2 + Bb2. 
> 
> For instance if
>  
> A.)
> 36... Bd4+
> 37. Rf2 Nd8
> 38. Kf1
> 
> B.)
> 36... Na5 (with the idea counterplay Nc4, b5...b2)
> 37. Rf8 Bd4+
> 38. Kf1 Nc4
> 39. Ke2
> 
> C.)
> 36... Nd8
> 37. Rf2 d5
> 38. Bd2 d4 ( or maybe 38. Kf1)
> 39. Kf1 

31. Qxe6   Kxe6
32. g3       fxg3
33. fxg3    Bxf3

is dangerous, since it pulls our bishop off the long diagonal.  
Better I think is 33.. b4.

Possibly good may even be 32. g3 f3, but this feels intuitively 
wrong; I haven't done the anaylsis yet.

Probably not the only one, but we'll get a draw and we'll be happy 
with it. :)

On Fri Aug 20 14:02:07, pk wrote:
 see my latest outline or go to the CC team site for a thorough 
review of this line, has Bg7 been sunk? or the rook vs 4 pawns line 
it depends on?


> I looked at the following variation using Crafty. 5-man tablebases 
> come handy here.
> 
> 31. ... Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35. h7 Bh8 36. Rf8 
> Ne5 37. Rxh8 Nf3+ 38. Kf2 Nxg5 39. Ke3 b4 40. Kf4 b3 41. Kxg5 b2 42. 
> Rf8 b1=Q 43. h8=Q Qg1+.
> 
> Here the FAQ gives 44. Kh6 which indeed leads to a draw.
> 
> Instead, white can play 44. Kf4!? Now for instance 44. ... Kd5?? is 
> mate in 27 (45. Qg8+ etc.).
> 
> It seems that black now must try a long series of checks, e.g.
> 
> 44. Kf4 Qf2+ 45. Ke4 Qe2+ 46. Kd4 Qd2+ 47. Kc4 d5+ 48. Kb3 (fleeing 
> towards b6 is a draw) Qd1+ 49. Ka2 Qa4+ 50. Kb2 Qb4+ 51. Kc2 Qe4+ 52. 
> Kd2 Qg2+ 53. Kc3! Qg3+ 54. Kb2.
> 
> Now black is running out of useful checks, and for instance 54. ... 
> Qg4 is again 1-0 (55. Qg8+).
> 
> It all depends on the question if white can (1) avoid a perpetual and 
> (2) avoid being driven back towards g5.
> 
> Queen exchange is a win for white if the king is reasonably well 
> placed. If the king finds a safe place, white should win in the long 
> run. 
> 
>

FAQ is missing possible winning line
for white I posted several days ago:

31. Qxe6+ Kxe6
32.  g3!       fxg3
33.  fxg3    Bxg3
34.   h6      Be5
35.   h7       Bh8
36.   Rf8     Ne5
37. Rxh8     Nf3+
38.  Kf2      Nxg5
39.  Ke3      b4
40.  Kf4  draws, but

40.   Kd4     d5
41.   Kd3     b6
42.   Kd4     b5
43.   Kd3     b3
44.   Kc3      b2
45.   Kxb2   d4
46.   Kb3    Nxh7
47.   Rxh7   Kd6
48.   Rh6+    e6
49.   Kb4     Kd5
50.   Kxb5    e5
51.   Rh5      d3
52.   Kb4    Kd4
53.   Rh4+    e4
54.   Kb3    Kd5
55.   Kc3    Ke5   
56.  Kd2     Kd4
57.  Rg4     Kd5
58.  Ke3      d2
59.  Kxd2   Kd4
60.  Rh4     Ke5
61   Ke3     Kf5
62.  Rxe4   resigns  

Please check this out before we assume
pawn grab on 33...Bxg3 really OK.  Thanks.

On Fri Aug 20 16:03:21, Chessmasterone Analysts wrote:

We have all 3 credited every last borrowed idea, theme, mentor, and 
computer used to arrive at a new idea we didn't think of. Why do you 
make doing the right thing sound like an impossibel thing. Maybe if 
your head wasn't so far up your rear, you could type better.


> of every strategical priniciple ever discovered, re-invented, and 
> applied for every move we make in this game from now on from every 
> first exponent, and be sure to provide a footnote of credit for every 
> entry posted at this strategic dite.

On Fri Aug 20 16:05:55, Leif Mikkelsen wrote:

After enduring months of mocking, perhaps some deserved, ...Qe6 has 
its day in the sun, with Garri coming to us groveling to trade her!!

I wasn't around at Qe6 so it never really occured to me, good call!

> First 10......Qe6!! and now again 30...Qe6 and 31.Qxe6 and Kxe6.....!
>  The field e6 is  and has been the  energy center in this game and a 
> honourable  and also  highly symbolic draw is likely and near after 
> the black kings placement also  at E6!
>  And 3o Qe6 and 31.QxQ, after the "beginning" and 
> "birth" of the   essence  and substance of this game with the 
> move  10...Qe6!!, is a  beautiful  and truthful symbol  for this new  
> collektive  and intellectuel experience in the mankind, both 
> happening in the  waken conscienness and the hidden  unconscienness 
> and in relationship to the noble chess,who is highly symbolic and 
> arketypical. After the exstraordinary and brilliant move 10...Qe6!!, 
> who create a very original and strange position and a memorable  
> unique game without the usual thematic maneuvre, so it ended again 
> with Qe6 and Qxe6.... 
> This is really  the auroboros,the snake who bite herself in the tale, 
> the closed perfect circle and a perfect symbol for a new time with 
> closer relationship between the nations and hopefully a world with 
> lesser superficial  contradictions and more cooperation!
> 
> Leif Mikkelsen
> http://webhuset.dk/astrodyb
> Http://webhuset.dk/erhvervsfilosof

On Fri Aug 20 16:10:47, IM2429 wrote:
> 31...Kxe6 32.g3(forced) fxg3 ( 32...f3?! ) 
> 

Ross A. and myself have tried to engage in an intelligent debate on 
the f4 idea, beginning with Ross's Rd1 idea, but some idiot kept 
spamming our threads with talk of retarded moves like Rf3 and 
inferiior responses. Oh yeah that was the guy trying to grab more 
undeserved glory!!!!


> and now:
> 
> 
> a) 33.fxg3 Bxg3! most probably leads to a forced draw ( best white 
> can hope for I think is a R+B vs N+B no pawns endgame , which, Im 
> quite sure, is a theoretical draw ) 
> 
> 
> b) 33.f4!? only winning chance left for white, this may be what Garry 
> has in mind. 33...Kf5! 34.Kg2 ( I think other moves are poorer ) and 
> now:
> 
> 
> b1) 34...Bf6 35.Bxf6 Kxf6 36.Kxg3 and its clear that the only side 
> playing for the win is white
> 
> b2) 34...Bd4 35.Rd1! e6!? (suggested by Nick Pelling. only move that 
> doesnt lead to whites clear advantage I think) 36.h6 Kg6 37.Kxg3 d5 
> 38.Kg4 b4 and now FAQ gives only 39.Rd3 += but I think 39.Re1 may be 
> better because 39...b3? doesnt seem to work 40.Rxe6+ Kh(f)7 41.Rd6! 
> b2 42.Rd7+ Kg8 43.Rxb7 +-
> 
> b3) 34...Bh8 ( given ! in the FAQ ) 35.Kxg3 e5 and FAQ stops here 
> with =+, I DONT agree with this assesment; after 36.Bh6! I think that 
> it may be black that is in trouble, some premilinary analysis:
> 
> b31) 36...Ke6 37.fxe5 (37.f5+!?) 37...Bxe5 38.Bf4 white advantage
> 
> b32)  36...b4 37.fxe5+ Kxe5 
> b321) 38.Rf8 Bf6 ( 38...b3?? 39.Rxh8 b2 40.Bg7+ ) 39.Bf4+ Ke6 40.h6 
> Ne7 41.h7 Ng6 +=
> b322) 38.Bf8!? b3 ( 38...Nd4 39.h6 Nf5+ 40.Kg4! Ne3 41.Kg5 Nxf1 
> 42.Bg7 +- ) 39.h6 b2 40.Kg4 and doesnt look good for black e.g. 
> 40...Kd4 41.Bg7+ Bxg7 42.hxg7 Ne7 43.Kg5 Kc3 44.Rh1! Kc2 45.Kf6 Ng8 
> 46.Kf7 Nh6+ 47.Rxh6 b1=Q 48.g8=Q Qa2+ 49.Re6! +-
> 
> b33) 36...exf4+ 37.Rxf4+ (37.Bxf4 d5 38.Rg1!?+=) Ke6 38.Rf8 Be5+ 
> 39.Bf4 (39.Kg4!?) 39...Ke7 40.Ra8 +=
> 
> b34) 36...Nd4 37.fxe5+ Kxe5 38.Kg4! white advantage
> 
> b35) 36...e4!? most critical continuation 37.Bf8 ( 37.Rd1!?, 37.Rb1!? 
> ) d5 38.h6 ( 38.Rb1!? )
> 
> after 38.h6:
> 
> b351) 38...b4?! 39.Rd1! d4?! 40.Bg7! +-
> 
> b352) 38...d4
> 
> b3521) 39.Rb1 d3 ( 39...b4? 40.Bg7! +- ) 40.Bg7!? Bxg7 41.hxg7 Ne7 
> 42.Rxb5+ and white has very good winning chances
> 
> b3522) 39.Bg7!? is allso very good for white
> 
> 
> Ivent spend much time to this, but the feeling I got is that 33.f4!? 
> may mean trouble for black. Anyway its the only line worth analysing, 
> 33.fxg3 leads to a draw.
>

How easy can the position be if our 3 major sources of top level data 
are heading in 3 different directions, giving each other's moves 
question marks and only concentrating on their pet line??????????????

GM Chess' take on 32. g3 

32.g3 fxg3 {32...f3!? GM School [? Krush] 33.Rd1 Kf5 (33...b4 34.Rd3 
Kf5 35.Bc1 [35.Bd2 Ke4 36.Rb3 [+/- Krush] Kd4! = GM School] - 
33...Kf5) 34.Bc1 b4 35.Rd3 Ke4 36.Re3+ Kd5 37.h6 Kc4 38.h7 Bh8 
39.Rxf3 b3 40.Rf8 b2 41.Bxb2 Bxb2 42.Kf1 b5 43.Ke2 b4 44.Kd1 b3 
45.h8Q Bxh8 46.Rxh8 Nb4! =} 33.fxg3 b4! (33...Bxg3?? 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 
[threatening 35.Bf6 +-] Bh8 [35...Bg7? 36.Rf8! Ne5 37.Bh6! +-] 36.Rf8 
Ne5 37.Rxh8! GM School Nf3+ 38.Kf2 Nxg5 39.Ke3! [39.Kg3? Ne4+ 40.Kf4 
Nf6 41.Kg5 b5! 42.Kg6 Kd5! 43.Rb8 Nxh7 =] b4 [39...Ke5? 40.Re8! +-] 
40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 b1Q 43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 45.Kg7 Qg2+ 
46.Kh7 Qe4+ 47.Kg8 +-) 34.Rb1 - 32.Rb1; 

I will try to sort the 3 choices for my next outline!

The CCTeam line here looks very solid and dependable.
nft.

Team knows this is not over the board play, but analysis will be 
extremely both computer heuristic and "human", when the time 
comes.  This board hashing is good for the entire Team.

On Sat Aug 21 00:39:08, Martin Sims wrote:
> I note that Irina currently considers 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 Bxg3!? to 
> be the main line.
> 
> There's no way I could vote for such a risky move. 33...b4 is the 
> best practical choice.
> 
> Consider the following:
> 
> - The positions resulting from 33...Bxg3 are beyond the capabilities 
> of today's computers to analyze to a clear conclusion.
> - Kasparov has plenty of time to find improvements to the FAQ lines. 
> He may even play second best moves in order to steer the game towards 
> the lines where he knows the FAQ recommendations are in error.
> - Kasparov is probably the best endgame player in the world. Remember 
> his win with K+R+B vs K+R against Judith Polgar?
> - Be honest, would you play a move like that at the board? Would 
> KASPAROV even play a move like that at the board?
> 
> Irina, please be very careful before you recommend 33...Bxg3!? The 
> game could depend on it. You must be  100% certain about your 
> analysis, otherwise you must recommend 33...b4. You know the world 
> will almost certainly follow your recommendation, so you are in a 
> position of great responsibility.

The GM chess page has used a different set of queen checks from a 
forced position to claim a win and if true it refutes our ambitous 
new IM's attempt to scratch his name into the scoresheet for this 
epic battle! 

I will verify it, but their is no doubt Irina's line held by a tempo 
and GM Chess found an easy way to steal one, is another such trick 
available, or can FAQ find an easy escape? 

I say we focus on 35...Bg7 until we can see if it hold human scrutiny 
, as it has computer hash tables,

CC Club keep at it, and we need more b4 evaluations. 

se my post below entitled Celebrity Death match II

best viewed at my page:
http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html 

Kasparov proclaims game "the most complicated and analyzed game 
in the history of chess," Wall Street Journal 8/12/99 "It's 
quite annoying from my point of view because if I do a second-quality 
move in this game, there's just no way out." Does he mean 16. 
a4?! 

The game so far: 

[Site "Microsoft Gaming Zone"] 

[White "Kasparov, G."] 

[Black "The World"] 

[ECO "B52"] 

[EventDate "1999.??.??"] 

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. 
O-O g6 8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Bg7 10. Nde2 Qe6 {N (Krush) The "World 
Variation"} 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Nc7+ Kd7 13. Nxa8 Qxc4 14. Nb6+ axb6 
15. Nc3 Ra8 {(Speelman)} 16. a4 16... Ne4 17. Nxe4 17... Qxe4 18. Qb3 
18... f5 (GM School - Khalifman)} 19. Bg5 19... Qb4 {(Jason Van 
Eaton)} 20. Qf7 Be5 {(Brian McCarthy)} 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. 
Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7  Bd4 26. Qb3 f4 {{Yasha}}27. Qf7 Be5 
28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 (above designations as given by 
analyst US Women's champion Irina Krush: www.smartchess.com): 

World Annoys Kasparov!     World Bluffs Kasparov!? 

Outline 8/11/99 Predicting   32. g3 Score of Predictions so far 16-1 
(Qf5+?!) 

Recommending: 32. g3 fg3 33. fg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35 h7 Be5! "CM 
finds 35...Bg7! after 75 hours and switches from 33...b4 back to 
33...Bxg3. " CC Team. It is based on a bishop sacrifice that need 
clarifying, but the 4 pawns for a rook it brings seems to be best and 
is holding up well. 

Developments! Somehow just when all the non pros agree that the 
position is a draw,  Smartchess, GM Chess and the Computer Chess team 
are at extreme opposites of opinions. With the CC team doubting 
Irina's Bh8 (not running it) and GM Chess's b4 try. GM Chess labels 
both the CC team and Irina's main line Bxg3?? The FAQ and CC team 
have both abandoned the line GM Chess now clings to!!!. The GM try is 
b4 and usually the 1st thing to look at in all lines, however b4 is 
not scoring too well against the move Bf4! Zarkov's quick take on the 
computer chess teams expected line yesterday is in the middle of the 
other beasts 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 
b3 35. Bf4  and 35...Bd4+ 36.Kg2 b2 37.Kf3 b5 38.Rh1 d5 39.h6 Kf7 
40.h7 Bh8. +38 at 10 million nodes. My current recommendation is the 
only try that attempts to keep fighting Gary on an even footing, the 
other lines may still draw but we give Garri lots of time and 
opportunity to use his legendary endgame technique. The GM chess lien 
versus the CC team's 35...Bg7! is just weak [35...Bg7? 36.Rf8! Ne5 
37.Bh6! +-] , only 36...b4 has been analyzed in the last 2 days. 

By far our biggest pressing need is deciding whether to play ..b4 or 
Bxg3 in the g3 line. 

Garry has sidestepped our mountain of ...e6 analysis, but did he do 
anything else? He transposes to a line I recommended from 8/10 till 
8/18. How will he follow up QxQ? Clearly the answer lies in white's g 
pawn. The best way to look at this fascinating ending is by a concept 
introduced to me by one of my favorite Russian authors: Eugene 
Znosko-Borovsky, related sqaures. We have forcing sets of moves that 
can happen in many different sequences, and GK is a master of seeing 
the subtle difference. I believe that Garri may have considered Qf7  
a harmless prod and that he could retreat to other lines without 
losing a tempo if needed, but our plans of e6 and Qg4 spoil that. 
Gary needs a real plan to finish the game, whatever the result, and 
we need to be as ready as possible. 

MAIN LINE: Garry has entered the old main line, first appearing at 
the computer chess club site on 8/10/99. After having played out the 
pawn race in a mock game, I feel confident in black's position. The 
computer evaluations have been steadily improving since the key Bd4 
juncture. IM Orlov feels black is better and said if Kasparov doesn't 
make a draw he will be playing for the loss! To underline just how 
...e6 fit in that exact position  Qf8-f5, ...e6 played now is rated 
at +350! 

We are left with  a queenless the pawn race. We sealed off his queen 
and bishop with ...f4 to queen our pawn and discourage queen trades 
that bring bad technical endings! Did we succeed? It looks that way 
so far! 

A) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g4 fxg3 and transposes to below is the 
current recommendation. GM Chess says b4 is a good try to punish g4. 

B) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33 f4 (this tricky try gets 
met by more tricks) Kf5! 34. Kg2 Bd4 (Rh1 b4 h6 b3 h7 b2 Kh3 d5 Kxg3 
Bh8 -16 [Zarkov]) 35 h6 b4 36 Rd1!? (Ross Amman 36. Rf3?! Bh8 Rb3 
(chessmasterone Rxg3=) and d5 or 37...e5 38.Kxg3 e4 39.Rb1 d5 40.Kf2 
d4 41.Ke2 Kg6 42.Rb3 b5 -56 10 million nodes Zarkov) this position 
has been discussed by the BBS and the best line is not clear, but it 
seems we are equal  as per Zark:) 36...Bh8 37.Rd5+ e5 38.Kxg3 b3 
39.Rxd6 b2 40.Rd1 Nd4 41.Kf2 exf4 42.Bd8 Be5 -26 at 31 million nodes 
Zarkov 

B1) The FAQ Main line 33 fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 (the threat of Bf6 
was found on the BBS a week ago and temporarily sidelined the entire 
Bg3 idea) Bh8?! 36.Rf8 Ne5 37.Rxh8 (! GM School) Nf3+ 38.Kf2 Nxg5 
39.Ke3 [(! 39.Kg3? Ne4+ 40.Kf4 Nf6 41.Kg5 b5! 42.Kg6 Kd5! 43.Rb8 Nxh7 
=GM Chess)39...b4 (39...Ke5? 40.Re8! +-)  40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 
b1Q 43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 45.Kg7 Qg2+ !! (not the Qg3 of the FAQ) 
46.Kh7 Qe4+ 47.Kg8 +-) my sample line did not run out well: 47...Qg6+ 
48 Qg7 Qg7 49 Kg7 d5 50. Kg6 Ke5 (not Re8 and Kf7 to win pawns) 51. 
Kg5 d4 52. Kg4 Ke4 53. Rf1 d3 54. Re1+ Kd4 55. Kf3 b5 56. Rxe7 b4 57. 
Rb7 Kc3 58. Ke3 d2 59. Rc7+ Kb3 60. Kxd2 over: pv Kb2 Rb7 Ka3 Kc2 Ka4 
Rb8 b3+ Kb2 Ka5 Kxb3 Ka6 +918 [Zarkov]  One good tempo stolen 
back,can reverse this again! 

B1a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3) 33.fxg3 Bxg3 (Can we reall 
do this?) 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7! 36.Rf8 ("I think 36.Bh6 may be 
more of a worry." R.Bean CC Team) b4 37. Rf3 (what?! rb) Ne5 38. 
Rg3 Bh8 full 14 -0.06 21min crafty 16.15 ("can white win!? we can 
always play 33...b4, of course" rb ) 

B1b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 ) 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 38...Kd5 39. Kf2 b3 40. 
Bc1 e5 41. Rh1 b5 42. Rd1+ Kc5 43. Be3+ Kb4 44. Bc1 Nd4 45. Bb2 Kc4 
46. Rc1+ Kd5 47.Rd1 Kc5 48. Bxd4+ exd4 49. Rc1+ Kd5 50. Kf3 full 18 
-0.08 13h crafty 16.13 (who knows... rb) 

B1c) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7) 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1 Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 Bh8 40.Bxb4 13/14 
+0.18 17 hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 333Mhz " NEW 
IDEA. First CM gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (lost end-game) then it changed line to 33.fxg3 b4 34. 
Bf4 Bc3 35.h6 b3 (lost end-game). Now it changed back to 33. .. Bxg3 
and the end-game seems DRAW thanks to 35" Raimondo D'Ambrosio. 

B1d) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7!) 36.Bh6 (R.Bean CC Team) This needs to be checked, but at 
57 million nodes; 36...Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bh8 39.Rf8 Be5 40.Bf4 
Bd4 41.Be3 Bc3 42.Kf3 Ne5+ 43.Ke2 Nf7 -19 Zarkov 

B2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3) b4 34. Rb1 Bxg3 
35.Bd2 Kf5 36.Bxb4 Kg5 37.Kg2 Be5 38.Bd2+ Kxh5 39.Rxb7 d5 -20 CC Club 

B2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34. Kf2 b3 
(34...Kf5 35.Bf4 Bf6 36.Kf3 Nd4+ 15/31 +.23 5h Hiarcs 7.32 TM ) 
35.Bf4 b2 35.Bxe5 Nxe5 36.Ke2 Ng4 37.Rb1Nf6 38. Rxb1Nxh5 10/13 +0.13 
20 hours CM6000 Pentium 133Mhz selective search 6 Raimondo D'Ambrosio 
Smart FAQ 8/18 Line F2 

B2a1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34.g4 (rb) b3 
35.Bf4 (Bc3 (35...Bd4+ 36. Kg2 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. h6 Nd3 39. Kf3 Kf5 
40. Bd2 Nc1 41. Rxc1 bxc1=Q 42. Bxc1 Kg6 +0.23 13h crafty ) 36. g5 
Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 41. g7 Bxg7 42. 
hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 13h crafty 16.15 
tablebases would probably solve that last position; TB says draw -jb 

B2a2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3) 
35.h6 b3 (12/13 +0.20 3hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 
333Mhz CM6k first gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (+0.08) (then it changed line Raimondo D'Ambrosio) 

B2b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 ) Bd4+ 
35.Kg2 b3 36. g4 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. Bd2 Nd3 39. Rb1 Ne5 40. g6 Nc4 41. 
Bb4 Kf5 42. Rh1 Ne3+ 43. Kg3 Nc2 18 +0.40 7h crafty 16.15/solaris 
w/TB end pos. -0.37 @ 14ply jb 

B2b1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 jb 
34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. g4 ) 36...Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 
Kc4 16 +0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris see below 

B2b2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 ) 34. g4 b3 
35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 (37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 Kc4 16 
+0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris) b2 38.Kf3 Bc3 39.g5 e5 40.Be3 Ne7 
41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5 17 +0.58 12h crafty 16.15 
"personally I find it hard to believe that black is holding this 
" rb. 

B2b2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 b3 
35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 )36. ... b2 37.Kf3 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 Depth 12/14 
+0.18 (White) 53 hrs @ 10:30 PM PST 8/19 (400MHz) CM6K Smart FAQ 8/18 
Line F2b2. CM6K switched from 33...Bxg3 to 33...b4 after thirty-some 
hours.) 

B2b3) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.g4 b3) 
35.Bf4 Bc3 36. g5 Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 
41. g7 Bxg7 42. hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 
13h crafty 16.15 rb tablebases would probably solve that last 
position; TB says draw -jb 

Conclusion: Garri has left the most analyzed line in the most 
analyzed game, only to go to one of the next most analyzed 
comtinuation. He probably will try g3 to follow up his quuen trade. 
We need a complete line vs 32 g3 and the outlook remains positive. 

(Computer Chess Club) 
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?method=reportRows&listname=computergang&tbl
=1&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&start_at=0&prntRpt=1 

Thanks to everyone on the Compter Chess Team! 

http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

On Sat Aug 21 01:20:42, HC BSB wrote:
Good eye, I knew it was there! 


> Differences
> I dont agree Doctor said no difference about.
> Bh8- Unprotected in h8 and after 36.Ra8 the knight must defend it. 
> Black detains more one piece in defense. Ra8 seems enough to win 
> concerning your post and my test.
> 
> Bg7! - No attack by Rook. 36.Ra8 seems no sense here. But 36. Rf3! 
> with 39..Bh8(losing a tempo) Black has problems I think it is lost. 
> Better is 39...Kf7! fine chances to draw, please analyze this line, 
> read below.        
> 
> From your post:
> E1b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
> 35.h7 Bg7) 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1 Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 Bh8 40.Bxb4    I 
> think Black here is lost. (+1.74)
> 
> Improvement for Black:
> 
> 39. Bd2 Kf7! 
> Now if: 
> 40. Bxd4   White is which will play to draw.   
> 40...... Kg6
> 41. Bd2  Kxh7
> 42. Rxb7 (-0.18) 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Sat Aug 21 01:29:05, richard bean wrote:

I think a good run of the rook vs 3 pawns with Kg7 should settle if 
Bh8 is playable then we can focus on 1 line, or at least 1 line vs b4


> I think this is the only new CCT idea.  in the Bxg3
> line, Bg7 is still scoring slightly better
> than Bh8 but this may not mean much.
> 
> the idea of Bd4+ (a winning attempt, Kf5 apparently
> draws in both the Kg2 and fe variations) is
> 
> 
> 34.Kg2 b4 35.Kg3 b3 36.f5+ Kf7
> 37.h6 b2 38.h7 Kg7 39.Rh1 Kh8
> 40.Kf3 d5 41.Ke2 b5 42.Kd3 Bc5
> 43.Kc3 Bd4+ 44.Kd3 (+0.07 for Black)
> 
> I hope this helps...

On Sat Aug 21 00:39:08, Martin Sims wrote:
> I note that Irina currently considers 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 Bxg3!? to 
> be the main line.
> 
> There's no way I could vote for such a risky move. 33...b4 is the 
> best practical choice.
> 
> Consider the following:
> 
> - The positions resulting from 33...Bxg3 are beyond the capabilities 
> of today's computers to analyze to a clear conclusion.

All right, you convinced me! I'm voting for Bxg3.

> - Kasparov has plenty of time to find improvements to the FAQ lines. 
> He may even play second best moves in order to steer the game towards 
> the lines where he knows the FAQ recommendations are in error.

We can induce Kasparov to make inferior moves? Great! Maybe the FAQ 
recommendations will be corrected before we get to them. Wouldn't be 
the first time.

> - Kasparov is probably the best endgame player in the world. Remember 
> his win with K+R+B vs K+R against Judith Polgar?

Great, let's give the world's best endgame player a chance to show 
his stuff! (This *is* an exhibition game, right?) How many moves did 
that Polgar game take? I guess checkmating us on move 100 might be 
worse for Kasparov than drawing. When does his big match start?

> - Be honest, would you play a move like that at the board? Would 
> KASPAROV even play a move like that at the board?

Most of the moves I play at the board are much worse than that, and 
*every* move I play is beyond *my* ability to "analyze to a clear 
conclusion".


> Irina, please be very careful before you recommend 33...Bxg3!? The 
> game could depend on it. You must be  100% certain about your 
> analysis, otherwise you must recommend 33...b4.

You have to be able to live with a little uncertainty in life. Are 
you 100% sure that b4 doesn't lose?

 You know the world 
> will almost certainly follow your recommendation, so you are in a 
> position of great responsibility.

Too bad she isn't eligible to become President of the United States; 
the responsibilities of that office would be duck soup for her after 
this game.

Your assessment of the Bg7 line is totally based on your opininon 
that the resulting (35. ...Bg7 36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8) 
rook vs 4 pawns ending is holdable for black.

The Smartchess people don't seem to believe so, hence the '?' on 35. 
Bg7.  I don't know, but it's not impossible that black will lose all 
pawns eventually.

On Sat Aug 21 02:41:18, BMcC HUGE flaw in GM Chess analysis!!! wrote:
> The Garri's Men Chess site (GM Chess) has put out a total piece of 
> rubbish as its latest analysis. 
> I blamed the 5 am time for even going over their line. 
> I would bet alcohol is their excuse!
> 
> In their "refutation" to the FAQ main line, they assume we 
> want to play for a win and therefore lose instead of am easy h and g 
> file perpetual as pointed out in my thread below. 
> 
> I am hoping for a lot of spam tomorrow so no one sees my going along 
> with such nonsense!!!
> Faq 1
> GM Chess 0
> 
> CC Team 1
> GM Chess 0
> B1) The FAQ Main line 33 fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 (the threat of Bf6 
> was found on the BBS a week ago and temporarily sidelined the entire 
> Bg3 idea) Bh8?! 36.Rf8 Ne5 37.Rxh8 (! GM School) Nf3+ 38.Kf2 Nxg5 
> 39.Ke3 [(! 39.Kg3? Ne4+ 40.Kf4 Nf6 41.Kg5 b5! 42.Kg6 Kd5! 43.Rb8 Nxh7 
> =GM Chess)39...b4 (39...Ke5? 40.Re8! +-) 40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 
> b1Q 43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 45.Kg7 Qg2 (Qg3 in FAq is a 
> transposition, not a big deal,  this line is not at all forced as 
> pointed out below. 46.Kh7 Qe4+ ?? ( Qh3=) 
> 
> The FAQ line runs out  to a perpetual, even though we are a rook 
> down. Perhaps today Garri's men will pick on that line!

44. Kf4! is a better idea. I'm not totally convinced that black has a 
draw by perpetual then.

On Sat Aug 21 02:53:50, don't know much about chess wrote:

You may have to throw in a diagonal check or 2, but I see no way to 
escape. It is 6 am though

> On Sat Aug 21 02:41:18, BMcC HUGE flaw in GM Chess analysis!!! wrote:
> > The Garri's Men Chess site (GM Chess) has put out a total piece of 
> > rubbish as its latest analysis. 
> > I blamed the 5 am time for even going over their line. 
> > I would bet alcohol is their excuse!
> > 
> > In their "refutation" to the FAQ main line, they assume we 
> > want to play for a win and therefore lose instead of am easy h and g 
> > file perpetual as pointed out in my thread below. 
> > 
> > I am hoping for a lot of spam tomorrow so no one sees my going along 
> > with such nonsense!!!
> > Faq 1
> > GM Chess 0
> > 
> > CC Team 1
> > GM Chess 0
> > B1) The FAQ Main line 33 fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 (the threat of Bf6 
> > was found on the BBS a week ago and temporarily sidelined the entire 
> > Bg3 idea) Bh8?! 36.Rf8 Ne5 37.Rxh8 (! GM School) Nf3+ 38.Kf2 Nxg5 
> > 39.Ke3 [(! 39.Kg3? Ne4+ 40.Kf4 Nf6 41.Kg5 b5! 42.Kg6 Kd5! 43.Rb8 Nxh7 
> > =GM Chess)39...b4 (39...Ke5? 40.Re8! +-) 40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 
> > b1Q 43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 45.Kg7 Qg2 (Qg3 in FAq is a 
> > transposition, not a big deal,  this line is not at all forced as 
> > pointed out below. 46.Kh7 Qe4+ ?? ( Qh3=) 
> > 
> > The FAQ line runs out  to a perpetual, even though we are a rook 
> > down.
> 
> It does if White plays 44. Kh6. Has 44. Kf4! been solved yet?

I let Crafty run over the position after

32. g3 fxg3 33. f4 Kf5 34. Kg2 Bh8 35. Kxg3 e5 36. Bh6 e4 37. Bf8 d5 
38. h6.

17-> 296:37   0.00   38. ... Kg6 39. Rb1 Nd4 40. f5+ Nxf5+ 41. 
Kf4 Bc3 42. Rxb5 Bd2+ 43. Ke5 e3 44. Rb6+ Kg5 45. Rb1 Nxh6 46. Bxh6+ 
Kxh6 47. Rxb7 Kg5 48. Kxd5 e2 49. Re7  e1=Q 50. Rxe1 Bxe1 .

Very computerish I must say.

On Sat Aug 21 02:49:49, pk wrote:
yes, and bg7 is backed up by a 3 pawn for rook ending with questions 
a computer hasn't seen yet, are we ready to bet the game on that? 


> Your assessment of the Bg7 line is totally based on your opininon 
> that the resulting (35. ...Bg7 36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8) 
> rook vs 4 pawns ending is holdable for black.
> 
> The Smartchess people don't seem to believe so, hence the '?' on 35. 
> Bg7.  I don't know, but it's not impossible that black will lose all 
> pawns eventually.

I just visited GM school site and saw this as their official view on 
Bxg3 

33...Bxg3?? 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 [threatening
          35.Bf6 +-] Bh8 [35...Bg7? 36.Rf8! Ne5 37.Bh6! +-] 36.Rf8 
Ne5 37.Rxh8! GM School Nf3+
          38.Kf2 Nxg5 39.Ke3! [39.Kg3? Ne4+ 40.Kf4 Nf6 41.Kg5 b5! 
42.Kg6 Kd5! 43.Rb8 Nxh7 =] b4
          [39...Ke5? 40.Re8! +-] 40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 b1Q 
43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 45.Kg7
          Qg2+ 46.Kh7 Qe4+ 47.Kg8 +-


Seems we now have quite a collection of reasons not to play it - I 
know Steni posted one that seems to hold - I posted one that BMcC 
didn't argue with other than to suggest a stronger move for White! - 
anyone else? 

What's the current status of alternatives? 


DK

**

On Sat Aug 21 05:53:43, KJ wrote:
> I know most of you have probably already calculated these moves long 
> ago, but I decided to post this for players like myself that need a 
> little a longer to see the lines clearly.
> 
> 
> 32. h6 b4
> 33. h7 b3
> 34. Bxf4? or perhaps
> 34. Re1 
> 
> In  either circumstance, how do we progress from there?
> How do we prevent this series of moves?

We can move our king to f5 on move 33 to prevent it

maybe

On Sat Aug 21 05:12:35, DK wrote:
> I just visited GM school site and saw this as their official view on 
> Bxg3 
> 
> 33...Bxg3?? 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 [threatening
>           35.Bf6 +-] Bh8 [35...Bg7? 36.Rf8! Ne5 37.Bh6! +-] 36.Rf8 
> Ne5 37.Rxh8! GM School Nf3+
>           38.Kf2 Nxg5 39.Ke3! [39.Kg3? Ne4+ 40.Kf4 Nf6 41.Kg5 b5! 
> 42.Kg6 Kd5! 43.Rb8 Nxh7 =] b4
>           [39...Ke5? 40.Re8! +-] 40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 b1Q 
> 43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 45.Kg7
>           Qg2+ 46.Kh7 Qe4+ 47.Kg8 +-


> Seems we now have quite a collection of reasons not to play it - I 
> know Steni posted one that seems to hold - I posted one that BMcC 
> didn't argue with other than to suggest a stronger move for White! - 
> anyone else? 
> 
> What's the current status of alternatives? 
> 
> 
> DK

black seems ok after  
45..Qg3+ 
46.Kh7 Qh4+ 
47. Kg8 Qxh8+ 
48. Kxh8 d5 
49. Kg7 Ke5 
50. Kf7 d4 
51. Kxe7 d3 
52. Rd8 Ke4 
53. Kd6 d2 
54. Kc5 Ke3 
55. Kc4 Ke2 = 

(as in FAQ)


In the "Steni post" 35..Nd8 instead of 35..b4 seems OK for 
black

It seems risky not to play Bxg3 and to give white to passed pawns. 
The main problem beeing 
33..b4?
34. Kf2 b3 (or 34. g4 b3 35 Kf2)
35. g4 b2
36 Ld2 with a clear advantage for white (intending(Ke2) g5,g6,h6 and 
g7)

Øystein

On Sat Aug 21 05:12:35, DK wrote:
> I just visited GM school site and saw this as their official view on 
> Bxg3 
> 
> 33...Bxg3?? 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 [threatening
>           35.Bf6 +-] Bh8 [35...Bg7? 36.Rf8! Ne5 37.Bh6! +-] 36.Rf8 
> Ne5 37.Rxh8! GM School Nf3+
>           38.Kf2 Nxg5 39.Ke3! [39.Kg3? Ne4+ 40.Kf4 Nf6 41.Kg5 b5! 
> 42.Kg6 Kd5! 43.Rb8 Nxh7 =] b4
>           [39...Ke5? 40.Re8! +-] 40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 b1Q 
> 43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 45.Kg7
>           Qg2+ 46.Kh7 Qe4+ 47.Kg8 +-
> 
> 
> Seems we now have quite a collection of reasons not to play it - I 
> know Steni posted one that seems to hold - I posted one that BMcC 
> didn't argue with other than to suggest a stronger move for White! - 
> anyone else? 
> 
> What's the current status of alternatives? 
> 
> 
> DK

They are wrong in their assessment of 43.h8=Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 45.Kg7 
Qg2+ 46. Kh7

Simply 46. ... Qh3+ 47. Kg8 Qxh8 48. Kxh8 is a theoretical draw for 
black. Easily verified with Crafty using 5-man tablebases:

17->   2:38   0.00   48. ... d5 49. Kg7 d4 50. Kg6 Ke5 51. Re8 d3 
52. Rxe7+ <EGTB>

which Brian has been screaming at everyone for a week (it seems) now.

On Sat Aug 21 06:40:08, DK wrote:
> 
> ystein seems to have an answer for both GM School and Steni's post 
> re strong White lines in 33...Bxg3 
> 
> I have however yet to see an improvement for Black for this posting I 
> originally gave
> 
> 
> 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 
> 32. g3 fxg3 
> 33. fxg3 Bxg3 
> 34. h6 Be5 
> 35. h7 Bh8 
> 36. Rf8 Ne5 
> 37. Kg2 Nf7 
> 38. Bh4 (Bd2 BMcC)  b4 (Why not b6? to protect against Rb1 by 
> allowing Bishop to defend at Bd4? - if b6 see below)
> 
> Sartchess faq 082001 says39. Re8 - but what if 39. Rb8? 
>  
> 39. Rb8 b3 
> 40. Rxb7 b2 
> 41. Rxe7+ Kd5 
> 42. Rb7 Kc4 
> 43. Be7 +/-
> 
> 
> If B6? 
> 
> 
> 38. Bh4 b6
> 39. Rb8 Bd4
> 40. Re8 Nh8
> 41. Re7 Kf5
> 42. Bf2 Bf2
> 43. Kf2 d5
> 44. Kf3 +/-
> 
> either way 33..Bxg3 still looks a little under supported in this FAQ
> 
> How about it? I'd like to use Bxg3 if we possibly safely can. 
> 
> DK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Sat Aug 21 06:41:45, Ross Amann wrote:
> which Brian has been screaming at everyone for a week (it seems) now.
> 
> On Sat Aug 21 06:40:08, DK wrote:
> > 
> > ystein seems to have an answer for both GM School and Steni's post 
> > re strong White lines in 33...Bxg3 
> > 
> > I have however yet to see an improvement for Black for this posting I 
> > originally gave
> > 
> > 
> > 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 
> > 32. g3 fxg3 
> > 33. fxg3 Bxg3 
> > 34. h6 Be5 
> > 35. h7 Bh8 
> > 36. Rf8 Ne5 
> > 37. Kg2 Nf7 
> > 38. Bh4 (Bd2 BMcC)  b4 (Why not b6? to protect against Rb1 by 
> > allowing Bishop to defend at Bd4? - if b6 see below)
> > 
> > Sartchess faq 082001 says39. Re8 - but what if 39. Rb8? 
> >  
> > 39. Rb8 b3 
> > 40. Rxb7 b2 
> > 41. Rxe7+ Kd5 
> > 42. Rb7 Kc4 
> > 43. Be7 +/-
> > 
> > 
> > If B6? 
> > 
> > 
> > 38. Bh4 b6
> > 39. Rb8 Bd4
> > 40. Re8 Nh8
> > 41. Re7 Kf5
> > 42. Bf2 Bf2
> > 43. Kf2 d5
> > 44. Kf3 +/-
> > 
> > either way 33..Bxg3 still looks a little under supported in this FAQ
> > 
> > How about it? I'd like to use Bxg3 if we possibly safely can. 
> > 
> > DK
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 

And if White plays Rf8 anyway?

On Sat Aug 21 07:11:39, IM2429 wrote:
> 
> 32.g3 fg 33.fg Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 and now both
> 
> 35...Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8
> 
> et
> 
> 35...Bh8 36.Bc1 b4 37.Rf8 Bd4+ 38.Kf1 b5/b3/Kd5 39.h8=Q Bxh8 40.Rxh8
> 
> lead to an ending R+B vs N+4P, and now everyone seems to think these 
> endings are drawn? Why? Because the comp evaluations show -0.26 or 
> something? Ok first question how deep computers can see in these 
> endings? Lets say depth=24, that means 12 moves, possible blockades 
> and pawn grabs may be far in the future, and computers are not 
> programmed to see blockades, its -0.26 or whatever as long as they 
> dont lose any of those pawns. The crucial question here is can the 
> pawns be blockaded in these endings? If the pawns can be blockaded 
> and eventually grabbed then 33...Bxg3 is not playable.
> 
> 
> And another "can we trust computers"-line. 33.f4!? Kf5 34.Kg2 
> Bh8 35.Rf3!? Brian McCarthy has been ignoring this move, saying its 
> bad, I dunno why. I hope not because his computer says its bad, my 
> Crafty says allso its bad, but changes its mind later.
> 
> 
> e.g. 35...Nd4 36.Rxg3 e5 37.Bh6! exf5 38.Rg8 and black has big 
> problems handling whites h-pawn, it takes the computer long time to 
> see this, allso black pawns are rather weak. 35.Rf3!? is a human 
> move, computer would never consider, but that doesnt make it bad. 
> 35...b4 36.Rxg3 e5 37.Rg5+, here allso computer for some time thinks 
> black is better but changes its mind later to +2.50.
> 
> 
> 
> NOTE THAT the computer evaluations in this ending are many times 
> MISLEADING. Computer evaluates 4 pawns worth a rook, but it has no 
> idea when the pawns actually guarantee a draw and when not. Allso 
> note that in many lines it jumps to +2.00, but its still a clear 
> draw. I mean many lines that result in R vs B or R vs N no pawns 
> ending.
> 
> 
> Can we trust computer evaluations. I think better not trust them, 
> only use them to check immediate tactics.
> 
> At least dont think that: Fritz x.xx says -0.11 depth=12 would mean 
> something. It means absolutely NOTHING.
> 
> 
> Ok no more babbling this time, Go world!
> 
> 

have you considered 35...Bh8 36.Bc1 Nd8 37.Rc8 Nd7
38.Rb1 Bc6 39.Rxb2 Nh8 40.Rxb4 Kc7..

steni

Ok, first of all , try to explain me how do you imagine to promote 
our pawn BEFORE limiting 40th move at all?
Even if this will be the case, I imagine it like this:
you point on b7 square, then point on b8, then after prompt question: 
"promote to: Q,R,N,B" you click on one of them and that's it! 
It will be entered in percentage as entered (e.g.
b2-b1Q 90%
b2-b1R 7%
Nf3-g5 3%) etc...

regards... 




On Sat Aug 21 05:59:44, jzerobloggz wrote:
> The voting form shows only the piece you would like tomove and its 
> destination square. Since we have a pawn race it seems natural to ask 
> what happens if we promote a pawn, how do we vote for a queen rook 
> knight or bishop?
> 
> This is probably a silly question anyway but who cares?

On Sat Aug 21 06:11:52, Just a Chess Player (JaCP) wrote:
> On Sat Aug 21 05:59:44, jzerobloggz wrote:
> > The voting form shows only the piece you would like tomove and its 
> > destination square. Since we have a pawn race it seems natural to ask 
> > what happens if we promote a pawn, how do we vote for a queen rook 
> > knight or bishop?
> > 
> > This is probably a silly question anyway but who cares?
> 
> No, it is not a silly question.  I don't know how Micro$oft has it 
> set up, but we (not Garry) will want to promote a pawn sometime in 
> this game (hopefully).
> 
> I saw a chess puzzle many years ago that was "Black mates in 
> 3" and the third move was a promotion.  Promoting to a Knight was 
> checkmate, but ANY OTHER piece, Black was mated in the next move!!!
> 
> Most of us think about getting a Queen, but that *may* not be the 
> best piece!!
> 
> Just a Chess Player (JaCP)
> 

yes, it is a good question. right now, the box allows
only two characters to type. It should allow 4 so 
that we can type 

b7

b8=R for example

Well...our movement now is only one ,ok...d7-e6..
But it is time to think about our next movie..
we have to start our cruzade to earn a new queen.
Lets try  sacrifice one of the peons,attracting the tower.
We have to use two of them one in side of the other..
well 
the first one that reach it will win.

I mean, I play out Captain Zarkov's (aka Brian) main line here:

32.g3 fg 33.fg b4 34.g4 b3 35.Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 b2 37.Kf3 b5 38.Rh1 d5 
39.h6 Kf7 40.h7 Bh8

and arrive at a position Zarkov says is +.38 and Fritz 5.32 says is 
-.8. Almost a two pawn difference in evaluation. And, given that, 
does anyone trust the moves that got us here??

Why is the FAQ neglecting 33...b4? Does anyone have evidence against 
this move?

On Sat Aug 21 07:51:55, steni wrote:
> On Sat Aug 21 07:11:39, IM2429 wrote:
> > 
> > 32.g3 fg 33.fg Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 and now both
> > 
> > 35...Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8
> > 
> > et
> > 
> > 35...Bh8 36.Bc1 b4 37.Rf8 Bd4+ 38.Kf1 b5/b3/Kd5 39.h8=Q Bxh8 40.Rxh8
> > 
> > lead to an ending R+B vs N+4P, and now everyone seems to think these 
> > endings are drawn? Why? Because the comp evaluations show -0.26 or 
> > something? Ok first question how deep computers can see in these 
> > endings? Lets say depth=24, that means 12 moves, possible blockades 
> > and pawn grabs may be far in the future, and computers are not 
> > programmed to see blockades, its -0.26 or whatever as long as they 
> > dont lose any of those pawns. The crucial question here is can the 
> > pawns be blockaded in these endings? If the pawns can be blockaded 
> > and eventually grabbed then 33...Bxg3 is not playable.
> > 
> > 
> > And another "can we trust computers"-line. 33.f4!? Kf5 34.Kg2 
> > Bh8 35.Rf3!? Brian McCarthy has been ignoring this move, saying its 
> > bad, I dunno why. I hope not because his computer says its bad, my 
> > Crafty says allso its bad, but changes its mind later.
> > 
> > 
> > e.g. 35...Nd4 36.Rxg3 e5 37.Bh6! exf5 38.Rg8 and black has big 
> > problems handling whites h-pawn, it takes the computer long time to 
> > see this, allso black pawns are rather weak. 35.Rf3!? is a human 
> > move, computer would never consider, but that doesnt make it bad. 
> > 35...b4 36.Rxg3 e5 37.Rg5+, here allso computer for some time thinks 
> > black is better but changes its mind later to +2.50.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > NOTE THAT the computer evaluations in this ending are many times 
> > MISLEADING. Computer evaluates 4 pawns worth a rook, but it has no 
> > idea when the pawns actually guarantee a draw and when not. Allso 
> > note that in many lines it jumps to +2.00, but its still a clear 
> > draw. I mean many lines that result in R vs B or R vs N no pawns 
> > ending.
> > 
> > 
> > Can we trust computer evaluations. I think better not trust them, 
> > only use them to check immediate tactics.
> > 
> > At least dont think that: Fritz x.xx says -0.11 depth=12 would mean 
> > something. It means absolutely NOTHING.
> > 
> > 
> > Ok no more babbling this time, Go world!
> > 
> > 
> 
> have you considered 35...Bh8 36.Bc1 Nd8 37.Rc8 Nd7
> 38.Rb1 Bc6 39.Rxb2 Nh8 40.Rxb4 Kc7..
> 
> steni 

In relation to which lines from 31 - 35? If you mean the above lines 
at top of message - some typo surely? 

DK

We will review: On Sat Aug 21 08:51:32, Chessmasterone's Analyst's 
33.f4 wrote:
 The Chessmasterone Analysts ****UPDATE*** is as follows:  Deeper 
 anti-computer lines in the 35.Rf3 variation from Chessmasterone 
> Analysts (for other rook moves, consult other experts specializing in 
> their lines)
> 
> For clairity section E2a in the cooresponding FAQ  
> 33.f4,Kf5,34.Kg2,Bh8?!  35.Rf3!?
> 
> Themes: 1. Fluctuating computer evaluations due to computer 
> anti-positional evaluations in endings.
> 2.  Blacks e5 plan.
> 3.  Blacks Nd4 plan
> 4.  White rooks role on both the f and/or g files.
> 5.  Bh6 to exchange off the black bishop or challenge the diagonal.
> 6.  Separation of the knight from widely separated passed pawns
> 7.  The white rook eventually operating from the rear.
> 8.  Ignoring the e5 pawn, in some lines.
> 9.  Delaying the exchange on g3. (Kxg/ or Rxg)
> 
> Lines:
> 
> 35.Rf3! e5?!. 36.Bh6!,Ke4(a), 37.f5! Bf6(All others white plays 
> f6)38.Rxg3,Kxf5
> 39.Bg7(big advantage white)e4. 40.h6 Ne5, 41.Bxf6(or h7)Kxf6 
> 42.h7,Nf7, 
> 43.Rg8,Rg8 (43Nh8 44.Rxh8 Kg7, 45Rd8 Kxh7, 46.Rxd6 white wins easy)
> 44.Rf8,Kg7, 45.Rxf7 and white wins.
> 
> 36(a)Nd4. 37.Rxg3,exf4?!38.Rg8,Be5 39.Bg7,f3?, (..Bxg7 
> 40.Rxg7 
> Kf6 nothing else. Rxg6 and the rook on the g file is winning for 
> white..Kf7,Rxd6,Nf5
> Rb6,Nd4,Rxb7+,Kg8,Kf2, and blacks knight cannot protect the pawns, 
> white is winning)
> 40.Kf2 white.
> 
> E2a22 35..Nd4 the knight d4 move, pawn race line, dynamic and very 
> unbalanced
> white queens first)
> 36.Rxg3,e5,37.Bh4 12/12 ply, b4,38.fxe5 Bxe5, 39.Rxg5+Kf4,40.Kh3,b3 
> 41.Rg2=,Ke3
> 42.Rb2,Kd3(the only correct move here)43Be1,Kc4 44.Rb1,Nb5 
> 45.Rc1+Kc2,46.Rd1+
> Kc2,47.Rd2+Kc1,48.Rd5,Na3, 49Rxe5,dxe5
> 50.Bc3 Nc4, 51h6,Nd6,52.h7,Nf7 53.Kg4,34 54.Kf5,b4
> 58.Kg6,Nh8 59.Kg7,b3 60.Kh8 Ka2, 61 Kg7,b2
> 62.h8=Q, b1=Q and both queen draw.

Whoa did I ever get a nice surprise...he exchanged Queens...This is 
why I stayed out of the analysis so as not to be too confusing to the 
majority because I felt that with Queens on the board I shouldnt say 
anything. It looks like I can start analyzing again as Garry has 
simplified. I wish someone with a high rating could explain this to 
me. I dont feel white should have exchanged...Is he going to the 
defensive?...why did he exchange queens?...aside from this, lets 
press on...with this exchange, the game for us has taken an exciting 
turn: Garry has lost his drawing chances (the most obvious ones 
anyway)!!...Is it also possible that with this exchange he is 
conceding a loss?

Looking at the position now, again somewhat difficult for a player of 
my caliber to analyze, it is my feeling that white needs to regroup 
for the defensive, and not move his pawns, altho I am not against W 
g4 to set up his last hope on the white squares! and giving him some 
space should we exchange (I will leave that analysis to the experts 
and watch). Clearly our strength is now in our weak doubled pawns, 
and I think pushing the b-pawn should be foremost on our minds and 
setting up our pieces for it's march! The reason for this is to keep 
white's rook occupied...if the white rook gets to the last rank, then 
we go on the defensive again, which at this point I see no need for 
us to do!! My question comes for our King: do we move it up or keep 
it behind? Lets see what the experts think; lets watch and learn, and 
help when we can.

Strategy pages are running 9 or so pages a day, and I dont know if I 
will be posting anything on my site yet...just listen to the experts 
(not the computers alone), do some analyzing, fishing, sailing, have 
some barbecues, THEN VOTE VOTE VOTE...Your ideas will show now!

MrZ

Danny, keep nagging!  I became concerned with 33…Bxg3
on August 16 when I posted a win for white.  What disturbed
me is that I played white vs. my computer as black.  The line
was the same as your first listed below except that on move 37, I took
h8 with the rook, etc.. At that time, the better analysts on this
BB quoted 33. ….b4! so I played out a few games and it looked
like black could draw.  Now, some are saying  that move 35. 
should be Bg7 for black.

Let’s face it, this is a very complex, subtle position and we need
to find the best moves on each side to answer the
issue of   33…..Bxg3   vs.  …b4,  or another move.  Since we are
all taught that pawn grabbing can be fatal, and I haven’t seen a
clear win for white in the 33…..b4 line, I’m inclined to favor this 
move.

But let’s all keep an open mind.

Now that my tourney is over (I did quite well, didn't I), I'll be 
suggesting moves on this bulliten board.  For starters, I strongly 
recommend KxQ (of course)!

On Sat Aug 21 09:03:20, MrZetaOfMaine wrote:
> Whoa did I ever get a nice surprise...he exchanged Queens...This is 
> why I stayed out of the analysis so as not to be too confusing to the 
> majority because I felt that with Queens on the board I shouldnt say 
> anything. It looks like I can start analyzing again as Garry has 
> simplified. I wish someone with a high rating could explain this to 
> me. I dont feel white should have exchanged...Is he going to the 
> defensive?...why did he exchange queens?...aside from this, lets 
> press on...with this exchange, the game for us has taken an exciting 
> turn: Garry has lost his drawing chances (the most obvious ones 
> anyway)!!...Is it also possible that with this exchange he is 
> conceding a loss?

Doesn't your low rating suggest that GK may understand
the position better than you do?
 
> Looking at the position now, again somewhat difficult for a player of 
> my caliber to analyze, it is my feeling that white needs to regroup 
> for the defensive, and not move his pawns,

No wonder you expect him to lose!  White's win is
based on Qing his hp.

> altho I am not against W 
> g4 to set up his last hope on the white squares! and giving him some 
> space should we exchange (I will leave that analysis to the experts 
> and watch). Clearly our strength is now in our weak doubled pawns, 
> and I think pushing the b-pawn should be foremost on our minds and 
> setting up our pieces for it's march! The reason for this is to keep 
> white's rook occupied...if the white rook gets to the last rank, then 
> we go on the defensive again, which at this point I see no need for 
> us to do!! My question comes for our King: do we move it up or keep 
> it behind? Lets see what the experts think; lets watch and learn, and 
> help when we can.

The only thing that matters at this point is the
detailed analysis; general principles are dashed
on the the craggy rocks of contingency.

> Strategy pages are running 9 or so pages a day, and I dont know if I 
> will be posting anything on my site yet...just listen to the experts 
> (not the computers alone), do some analyzing, fishing, sailing, have 
> some barbecues, THEN VOTE VOTE VOTE...Your ideas will show now!

Is everyone on this board 13 yrs old, or do they just
try to sound that way?

On Sat Aug 21 09:53:47, Dave Gale wrote:
> Danny, keep nagging!  I became concerned with 33Bxg3
> on August 16 when I posted a win for white.  What disturbed
> me is that I played white vs. my computer as black.  The line
> was the same as your first listed below except that on move 37, I took
> h8 with the rook, etc.. At that time, the better analysts on this
> BB quoted 33. .b4! so I played out a few games and it looked
> like black could draw.  Now, some are saying  that move 35. 
> should be Bg7 for black.
> 
> Lets face it, this is a very complex, subtle position and we need
> to find the best moves on each side to answer the
> issue of   33..Bxg3   vs.  b4,  or another move.  Since we are
> all taught that pawn grabbing can be fatal, and I havent seen a
> clear win for white in the 33..b4 line, Im inclined to favor this 
> move.
> 
> But lets all keep an open mind.
> 	
> 

I'm not Danny (not 1/10th his talent if you meant Danny King - as I 
once told Spirief) but to your comment ... It would be GREAT to be 
able to play 33...Bxg3 if we possibly can - but I think the comments 
by IM 2429 on this page

http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/uy/46612.asp

are very pertinent - and I suspect when the FAQ is next updated some 
clarity on Bg7 will be forthcoming and some ? marks on Bh8 will be 
revealed - It may be that GK won't give us the option by declining to 
play g3 anyway of course. It does get chaotic here at times - but 
from the primordial soup comes light hopefully. 

DK

On Sat Aug 21 09:59:22, L. Nisipeanu wrote:
> Now that my tourney is over (I did quite well, didn't I), I'll be 
> suggesting moves on this bulliten board.  For starters, I strongly 
> recommend KxQ (of course)!

What did we ever do without you?

On Sat Aug 21 10:16:35, Ross Amann wrote:
> On 36.h6 b2 37.h7 Nc4 looks excellent. And 37.Bd2 (White's only other 
> reasonable move) Nc4 38.Bd4 Kf6 39.Ke2+ Kg6 looks better for us too.
> 
> I don't think 34.Kf2 is a threat; it allows our king to get to g6 - 
> after threats like Na5 here.
> 
> 
> On Sat Aug 21 10:01:18, OmniBob wrote:
> > Here's the line given in the latest FAQ:
> > 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 b3 35. g4 b2 36. Bd2, with advantage 
> > for white.
> > 
> > My new idea is 35.. Na5! And after that:
> > 36. h6 b2 37. h7 Nb3 38. Rb1 Kf7 39. Ke3 Kg6 40. Bxe7 Kxh7 41. Kd3 
> > Nc5+ 42. Kc2 Ne4 
> > This is the main line, and it leads to a tough game where black has a 
> > slight advantage. This line needs further analysis. Other 
> > possibilities along the way are:
> > 
> > 39. Rh1? Kg6 40. Be3(Bxe7? Nd2!-+) Nc1!-+
> > 37. Rb1 Nc4 38. h7 Na3 39. Re1 b1(Q) 40. Rxe5+ dxe5 41. h8(Q)Qc2, and 
> > black should win, especially if he can force a queen trade.

After the idiot move 34.Kf2? you are both correct that 34..b3 35.g4 
Na5 is good...but probably only for a draw.  Instead, 35..Nb4! is 
even better.

Generalmoe.

If the need arises for the World Team to make an en passant capture, 
I hope that a good explanation will be posted on the official 
commentary & analysis page, where all the voters will see it. An 
explanation has been posted on this BBS, but that doesn't help much 
because the voters who don't know all the rules of chess probably 
don't read it.

Even 35.Bd2 does not good. Black wins. Forget about 34.Kf2.


On Sat Aug 21 10:27:42, Otto ter Haar wrote:
> On Sat Aug 21 10:01:18, OmniBob wrote:
> > Here's the line given in the latest FAQ:
> > 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 b3 35. g4 b2 36. Bd2, with advantage 
> > for white.
> > 
> > My new idea is 35.. Na5! And after that:
> 
> Otto:
> A possible improvement for white seems to me
> 33...b4
> 34.Kf2 b3
> 35.Bd2 
> pawn g3 is saved and field b4 is just made free.
> 35...Kf5 is here neither a good manoeuvre, so this is the right 
> moment to play Bd2.
> 
> Otto

For those of you wondering why Gary played the weak 31.Qxe6+?, the 
answer is that he was traveling and away from his computer.  He 
phoned his move in.  He wanted to play the much better 31.Qg6.  The 
person at the other end of the phone at Microsoft thought he said 
"31.Qe6" and entered that move (they both sound the same.)  
Before anyone realized it, the mistake was officially posted, and 
Gary could not retract it.

Generalmoe.

On Sat Aug 21 11:21:11, generalmoe wrote:
> For those of you wondering why Gary played the weak 31.Qxe6+?, the 
> answer is that he was traveling and away from his computer.  He 
> phoned his move in.  He wanted to play the much better 31.Qg6.  The 
> person at the other end of the phone at Microsoft thought he said 
> "31.Qe6" and entered that move (they both sound the same.)  
> Before anyone realized it, the mistake was officially posted, and 
> Gary could not retract it.
> 
/
> Generalmoe.

On Sat Aug 21 11:22:09, Curious George wrote:
> I played out some variations down to the end where it's GK's rook vs 
> our knight. Is this an automatic draw or a win for white?

Depends.  What squares are the pieces on?

Generalmoe.

On Sat Aug 21 11:25:12, Sporty wrote:
> On Sat Aug 21 11:21:11, generalmoe wrote:
> > For those of you wondering why Gary played the weak 31.Qxe6+?, the 
> > answer is that he was traveling and away from his computer.  He 
> > phoned his move in.  He wanted to play the much better 31.Qg6.  The 
> > person at the other end of the phone at Microsoft thought he said 
> > "31.Qe6" and entered that move (they both sound the same.)  
> > Before anyone realized it, the mistake was officially posted, and 
> > Gary could not retract it.
> > 
> /
> > Generalmoe.

I'd be willing to do that, but Microsoft isn't.  It's too embarassing 
for them.

Generalmoe.

On Sat Aug 21 11:21:11, generalmoe wrote:
> For those of you wondering why Gary played the weak 

The World and the analysts should insist !

We cant have the "World Opening" and the ensuing play 
BESMIRCHED by a stupid M$ tyographical error!

I'm inclined to believe that generalmoe is talking a sackload of 
trash. Let's either hear it from the Champion himself or an official 
statement from MSN. Rumors are always bound to instigate the wrong 
sparks.

Thomas

Here's latest outline, it differs from last night only in my ideas 
section where I compare Bh4 to Bd2 in the Rxh8, Kg2 line. 
   I gave Dr. R his due credit, corrected spelling and added Otto to 
the people who could see GM Chess was full of hot air. 
   Thanks for correcting me, but who cares about credit anyway? 
(hehe) 
    I hope the GM Chess site is better prepared for tonight's version 
of "Celebrity Death Match" They were mauled by CC Team and 
FAQ. I had to call the FAQ/CCT a draw last night, but hopefully we 
can resolve that tonight! 



Kasparov proclaims game "the most complicated and analyzed game 
in the history of chess," Wall Street Journal 8/12/99 "It's 
quite annoying from my point of view because if I do a second-quality 
move in this game, there's just no way out." Does he mean 16. 
a4?! 

The game so far: 

[Site "Microsoft Gaming Zone"] 

[White "Kasparov, G."] 

[Black "The World"] 

[ECO "B52"] 

[EventDate "1999.??.??"] 

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. 
O-O g6 8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Bg7 10. Nde2 Qe6 {N (Krush) The "World 
Variation"} 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Nc7+ Kd7 13. Nxa8 Qxc4 14. Nb6+ axb6 
15. Nc3 Ra8 {(Speelman)} 16. a4 16... Ne4 17. Nxe4 17... Qxe4 18. Qb3 
18... f5 (GM School - Khalifman)} 19. Bg5 19... Qb4 {(Jason Van 
Eaton)} 20. Qf7 Be5 {(Brian McCarthy)} 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. 
Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7  Bd4 26. Qb3 f4 {{Yasha}}27. Qf7 Be5 
28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 (above designations as given by 
analyst US Women's champion Irina Krush: www.smartchess.com): 

World Annoys Kasparov!     World Bluffs Kasparov!? 

Outline 8/11/99 Predicting   32. g3 Score of Predictions so far 16-1 
(Qf5+?!) 

Recommending: 32. g3 fg3 33. fg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35 h7 Be5! "CM 
finds 35...Bg7! after 75 hours and switches from 33...b4 back to 
33...Bxg3. " CC Team. It is based on a bishop sacrifice that need 
clarifying, but the 4 pawns for a rook it brings seems to be best and 
is holding up well. 

Developments! Somehow just when all the non pros agree that the 
position is a draw,  Smartchess, GM Chess and the Computer Chess team 
are at extreme opposites of opinions. With the CC team doubting 
Irina's Bh8 (not running it) and GM Chess's b4 try. GM Chess labels 
both the CC team and Irina's main line Bxg3?? The FAQ and CC team 
have both abandoned the line GM Chess now clings to!!!. The GM try is 
b4 and usually the 1st thing to look at in all lines, however b4 is 
not scoring too well against the move Bf4! Zarkov's quick take on the 
computer chess teams expected line yesterday is in the middle of the 
other beasts 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 
b3 35. Bf4  and 35...Bd4+ 36.Kg2 b2 37.Kf3 b5 38.Rh1 d5 39.h6 Kf7 
40.h7 Bh8. +38 at 10 million nodes. My current recommendation g3 is 
the only try that attempts to keep fighting Gary on an even footing, 
the other lines may still draw but we give Garri lots of time and 
opportunity to use his legendary endgame technique. The GM chess line 
versus the CC team's 35...Bg7! is just weak [35...Bg7? 36.Rf8! Ne5 
37.Bh6! +-] , only 36...b4 has been analyzed in the last 2 days. 
Their line looks just as suspect against the FAQ. As they play until 
white can get his queen to g7 instead of forcing a perpetual or Kg8 
allowing Qxh8 Kxh8 analyzed as = in FAQ. 

By far our biggest pressing need is deciding whether to play ..b4 or 
Bxg3 in the g3 line. 

2 ideas: The most interesting line of the day was the idea to play 
Rf2 and Bc1-Bb2 by Doctor Reidenschneider: 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 
31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35. h7 Bh8 36. 
Bc1! Nd8 37. Rf2 (d5?!  38. Bb2 d4 39. Kf1 Nf7 40. Ke2 Ng5 41. Kd3 
Kd6 and at 3 million moves we are in trouble ) now 37...Bd4! (Peter 
Rihacek) prevents Bb2 by attacking the rook, and with the intent to 
stay out of g7 or h8 seems a draw as well. E.g. 38. Be3 Bc3 (Ok so 
far, but what if queen now? the comp is ready Kg2 (f1!?) is a slight 
edge at 5 million nodes 38.Kg2 Nf7 39.Rf3 d5 40.Rb3 Kd7 41.Rxb5 Kc6 
42.Rb3 +15 do we really get anyhting for tossing a button?  So we 
forced Bd4 Be3 Bc3 and after 39 Rf8 we have no time for the usualy 
Kxh7 plan, becasue Rb8xb7xe7 pins knight as we get there! However ir 
seems to still draw : 37...Bd4 38. Be3 Bc3 39. Rf8 Nf7 40. Rb8 Kf5 
41. Rxb7 Bf6 42. Kf2 Kg6 43. Rxb5 Kxh7 44. Kf3 Ne5+ 45. Ke4 Kg6 and a 
trivial ending 46.Kd5 Kf5 47.Bd4 Nd3 48.Bxf6 Nf4+ 49.Kd4+ Kxf6 50.Ke3 
e5 51.Rb7 d5 -13 ! So Kg2 or f1 seem the only responses: Kg2 tiny 
edge, Kf1 maybe more, 38. Kf1 Nf7 39 Rf4 is a better try, as it hits 
everyone and guards h pawn too! and if Bc3 Zarkov, our king is on e2 
and there will be no more letting queens Be5 42.Rb4 Nd6 43.Bf4 Bc3 
44.Bxd6 Kxd6 45.Rxb5 +22 but upgrades to 39...Bc3 40.Ke2 Bf6 41.Be3 
Kd5 42.Rb4 Kc6 43.Kd2 Bg7 +25   It is probably just an interesting 
sideline, but we don't want to be unprepared! 

This line is less serious, but needs checking: 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 
fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34 h6 Be5 35 h7 Bh8 36 Rf8 Ne5! 37.Kg2 Nf7 (forced) 
(38 Bh4 b6 39. Re8? (a pawn grabbing computer move for sure, but why 
not Bd2! shutting down all of blacks plans to push b pawn or take h 
pawn? A BBS post derided 38...b6 and rightfully so, but why Bh4 ? ) 
38 Bd2! and then :  +37 38...Bf6 39.Kf3 Ne5+ 40.Ke4 Nd7 41.Re8 Kf7 
42.h8 Bxh8 43.Rxh8 Nc5+ 44.Ke3 Zarkov)1st run, at 4 million 38...b6 
39.Kf3 Bg7 40.Rg8 Bf6 41.Be3 Ne5+ 42.Ke2 Nc4 43.Kd3 Nxe3 44.Kxe3 and 
at 5 mill: 38...Kf6 39.Re8 e6 40.Kf3 Kg6 41.Rxe6+ Kxh7 42.Re7 Kg6 
43.Rxb7 +21 then up to +25 with...38...Kf6 39.Bc3+ e5 40.Rb8 Bg7 
41.Rxb7 Ng5 42.Bb4 Nxh7 43.Bxd6 Bf8 and it seems safe at +25, but 3 
candidate move switched in the 1st 5 mins isn't usually a good sign. 

My overnight line was to choose between Bh4/Bd2, Zark liked Bh4: pv 
Bh4 b4 Rb8 Kf5 Rxb7 Kg6 Bxe7 b3 Rxb3 Kxh7 Rh3+ Kg8 Kf3 Bd4 +67 
[Zarkov] 1.1bill 

MAIN LINE: Garry has entered the old main line, first appearing at 
the computer chess club site on 8/10/99. After having played out the 
pawn race in a mock game, I feel confident in black's position. The 
computer evaluations have been steadily improving since the key Bd4 
juncture. IM Orlov feels black is better and said if Kasparov doesn't 
make a draw he will be playing for the loss! To underline just how 
...e6 fit in that exact position  Qf8-f5, ...e6 played now is rated 
at +350! 

We are left with  a queenless the pawn race. We sealed off his queen 
and bishop with ...f4 to queen our pawn and discourage queen trades 
that bring bad technical endings! Did we succeed? It looks that way 
so far! 

A) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g4 fxg3 and transposes to below is the 
current recommendation. GM Chess says b4 is a good try to punish g4. 

B) 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33 f4 (this tricky try gets 
met by more tricks) Kf5! 34. Kg2 Bd4 (Rh1 b4 h6 b3 h7 b2 Kh3 d5 Kxg3 
Bh8 -16 [Zarkov]) 35 h6 b4 36 Rd1!? (Ross Amman 36. Rf3?! Bh8 Rb3 
(chessmasterone Rxg3=) and d5 or 37...e5 38.Kxg3 e4 39.Rb1 d5 40.Kf2 
d4 41.Ke2 Kg6 42.Rb3 b5 -56 10 million nodes Zarkov) this position 
has been discussed by the BBS and the best line is not clear, but it 
seems we are equal  as per Zark:) 36...Bh8 37.Rd5+ e5 38.Kxg3 b3 
39.Rxd6 b2 40.Rd1 Nd4 41.Kf2 exf4 42.Bd8 Be5 -26 at 31 million nodes 
Zarkov 

B1) The FAQ Main line 33 fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 (the threat of Bf6 
was found on the BBS a week ago and temporarily sidelined the entire 
Bg3 idea) Bh8?! 36.Rf8 Ne5 37.Rxh8 (! GM School) Nf3+ 38.Kf2 Nxg5 
39.Ke3 [(! 39.Kg3? Ne4+ 40.Kf4 Nf6 41.Kg5 b5! 42.Kg6 Kd5! 43.Rb8 Nxh7 
=GM Chess)39...b4 (39...Ke5? 40.Re8! +-)  40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 
b1Q 43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 45.Kg7 ( this line is not at all forced 
as pointed out by Otto ter Harr and Paul Cornelius on the BBS. Qg2+  
Kh7 and not Qe4?? but 46...Qh3+! 47. Kg8 (or perp) Qxh8+ and the 
white king ends up on h8 instead of g7. Qg3 of the FAQ transposes)  
45...Qg3 46. Kh7 Qh4+ 47. Kg8 Qxh8 48. Qxh8 d5 49. Kg7 Ke5 50. Kf7 d4 
51. Ke7 d3 52. Rd8 Ke4 53. Kd6 d2  54. Kc5 Ke3  55. Kc4 Ke2= 

B1a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3) 33.fxg3 Bxg3 (Can we reall 
do this?) 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7! 36.Rf8 ("I think 36.Bh6 may be 
more of a worry." R.Bean CC Team) b4 37. Rf3 (what?! rb) Ne5 38. 
Rg3 Bh8 full 14 -0.06 21min crafty 16.15 ("can white win!? we can 
always play 33...b4, of course" rb ) 

B1b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 ) 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 38...Kd5 39. Kf2 b3 40. 
Bc1 e5 41. Rh1 b5 42. Rd1+ Kc5 43. Be3+ Kb4 44. Bc1 Nd4 45. Bb2 Kc4 
46. Rc1+ Kd5 47.Rd1 Kc5 48. Bxd4+ exd4 49. Rc1+ Kd5 50. Kf3 full 18 
-0.08 13h crafty 16.13 (who knows... rb) 

B1c) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7) 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1 Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 Bh8 40.Bxb4 13/14 
+0.18 17 hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 333Mhz " NEW 
IDEA. First CM gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (lost end-game) then it changed line to 33.fxg3 b4 34. 
Bf4 Bc3 35.h6 b3 (lost end-game). Now it changed back to 33. .. Bxg3 
and the end-game seems DRAW thanks to 35" Raimondo D'Ambrosio. 
However there is no need to drop the b pawn like that, as pointed out 
on the BBS by HC BSB: 

B1c1)(30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1 Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 ) 39...Kf7! (HC BSB) 
and a rather trivial draw seems forced: 40.Bxb4 Kg6 41.Bd2 Kxh7 
42.Rxb7 Bf6 43.Ke2 Ne5 44.Be3 +9 Zarkov 

B1d) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7!) 36.Bh6 (R.Bean CC Team) This needs to be checked, but at 
57 million nodes; 36...Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bh8 39.Rf8 Be5 40.Bf4 
Bd4 41.Be3 Bc3 42.Kf3 Ne5+ 43.Ke2 Nf7 -19 Zarkov 

B2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3) b4 34. Rb1 Bxg3 
35.Bd2 Kf5 36.Bxb4 Kg5 37.Kg2 Be5 38.Bd2+ Kxh5 39.Rxb7 d5 -20 CC Club 

B2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34. Kf2 b3 
(34...Kf5 35.Bf4 Bf6 36.Kf3 Nd4+ 15/31 +.23 5h Hiarcs 7.32 TM ) 
35.Bf4 b2 35.Bxe5 Nxe5 36.Ke2 Ng4 37.Rb1Nf6 38. Rxb1Nxh5 10/13 +0.13 
20 hours CM6000 Pentium 133Mhz selective search 6 Raimondo D'Ambrosio 
Smart FAQ 8/18 Line F2 

B2a1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34.g4 (rb) b3 
35.Bf4 (Bc3 (35...Bd4+ 36. Kg2 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. h6 Nd3 39. Kf3 Kf5 
40. Bd2 Nc1 41. Rxc1 bxc1=Q 42. Bxc1 Kg6 +0.23 13h crafty ) 36. g5 
Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 41. g7 Bxg7 42. 
hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 13h crafty 16.15 
tablebases would probably solve that last position; TB says draw -jb 

B2a2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3) 
35.h6 b3 (12/13 +0.20 3hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 
333Mhz CM6k first gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (+0.08) (then it changed line Raimondo D'Ambrosio) 

B2b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 ) Bd4+ 
35.Kg2 b3 36. g4 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. Bd2 Nd3 39. Rb1 Ne5 40. g6 Nc4 41. 
Bb4 Kf5 42. Rh1 Ne3+ 43. Kg3 Nc2 18 +0.40 7h crafty 16.15/solaris 
w/TB end pos. -0.37 @ 14ply jb 

B2b1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 jb 
34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. g4 ) 36...Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 
Kc4 16 +0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris see below 

B2b2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 ) 34. g4 b3 
35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 (37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 Kc4 16 
+0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris) b2 38.Kf3 Bc3 39.g5 e5 40.Be3 Ne7 
41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5 17 +0.58 12h crafty 16.15 
"personally I find it hard to believe that black is holding this 
" rb. 

B2b2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 b3 
35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 )36. ... b2 37.Kf3 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 Depth 12/14 
+0.18 (White) 53 hrs @ 10:30 PM PST 8/19 (400MHz) CM6K Smart FAQ 8/18 
Line F2b2. CM6K switched from 33...Bxg3 to 33...b4 after thirty-some 
hours.) 

B2b3) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.g4 b3) 
35.Bf4 Bc3 36. g5 Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 
41. g7 Bxg7 42. hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 
13h crafty 16.15 rb tablebases would probably solve that last 
position; TB says draw -jb 

Conclusion: 35...Bg7 and 35 ...Bh8 seem to hold at the present, it 
would be nice to know which is our best play. Garri has left the most 
analyzed line in the most analyzed game, only to go to one of the 
next most analyzed comtinuation. He probably will try g3 to follow up 
his quuen trade. We need a complete line vs 32 g3 and the outlook 
remains positive. 

(Computer Chess Club) 
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?method=reportRows&listname=computergang&tbl
=1&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&start_at=0&prntRpt=1 

Thanks to everyone on the Compter Chess Team! 

http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

On Sat Aug 21 11:21:11, generalmoe wrote:
> For those of you wondering why Gary played the weak 31.Qxe6+?

We MUST insist that MS regroup and post the correct move !!!!

ELSE
this Game will be recorded in the anals of foolishness
NOT
the anals of CHESS !!!

On Sat Aug 21 11:31:17, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
> On Sat Aug 21 11:22:09, Curious George wrote:
> > I played out some variations down to the end where it's GK's rook vs 
> > our knight. Is this an automatic draw or a win for white?
> 
> It depends on the position.  Usually if the king and knight are far 
> apart or at the edge of the board, the chance for white to find a win 
> is greater.  If our king and knight have running room and the knight 
> hovers around the king, it's most likely a draw.  Programs with the 
> endgame tablebases will know instantly if we are drawn or not.  For 
> those that are unfamiliar with tablebases, they are endgame databases 
> that contain exact win or draw information for any configuration of 
> up to five pieces (kings count as pieces in this nomenclature).  So 
> the 4-man krkn tablebase has complete information on any possible 
> position involving knight vs. rook, whether it's mate in 27 or draw.  
> So we will know in advance if we can reach a drawn position or not, 
> no way on earth Kasparov or anyone else can surprise there.

Do the tablebases also cover sparse positions with pawns, e.g. K+Q+P 
vs K+Q?

32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rf8 Ne5 37.Rxh8 Nf3+ 
38.Kf2 Nxg5 39.Ke3 b4 40.Kf4 b3! 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 b1=Q 43.h8=Q Qg1+ 

Here, 44. Kh6 is a draw as indicated in the FAQ.

But white can try 44.Kf4!

Black is now forced to give a series of checks. Otherwise, the 
position is utterly lost. "IM LS" has analyzed this, see 
http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/kh/46160.asp . He 
believes that 44. Kf4 is "Another attempt to find escape for the 
king, but there is not escape!"

44...Qf2+ 45.Ke4 Qe2+ 46.Kd4 Qd2+ 47.Kc4 Qe2+

Here IM LS gives the following line:

48.Kb4 Qe4+ 49.Kb3 Qd5+ 50.Kc3 Qa5+ 51.Kc2 Qa4+ 52.Kc1 Qc4+ 53.Kd2 
Qd5+ =

However, 51. Kd3! allows the white king to walk back to the king 
side, and black will run out of checks eventually. For instance, 51. 
... Qb5+ 52. Ke3 Qb3+ 53. Kf2 Qc2+ 54. Kg3 Qg6+ 55. Kf4!

Another variation given by IM LS:

47...d5+!? 48.Kb3 Qd1+ 49.Ka2 Qa4+ 50.Kb2 Qb5+ 51.Kc1 Qc4+ 52.Kd2 
Qa2+ 53.Ke3 Qb3+ 54.Kf2 Qc2+ 55.Kg3 Qg6+ 56.Kh3 Qd3+ 57.Kg2 Qg6+ =

However, 54. Kf4! ends the checks: 54. ...Qb4+ 55. Kg3 Qe1+ 56. Rf2! 
Qe3+ 57. Kg2 Qe4+ 58. Kh2!

Note that in both variations the white king returns to f4, but the 
black queen is placed worse.

Conclusion: The 082001 FAQ line C2e) is not playable.

Am I missing the trees for the wood? If I were White and in a rare 
moment of frustrated exhasperation exchanged queens, I might then be 
looking for some kind of way to drag my sorry King's ass up the board 
as the only feasible way to force that pawn to h8. However, I haven't 
seen any lines whatsoever suggesting White might even want to try to 
do this. In fact I've never seen anything more than Kg2 suggested so 
I suppose I must be wrong?

On Sat Aug 21 11:21:11, generalmoe wrote:
> For those of you wondering why Gary played the weak 31.Qxe6+?, the 
> answer is that he was traveling and away from his computer.  He 
> phoned his move in.  He wanted to play the much better 31.Qg6.  The 
> person at the other end of the phone at Microsoft thought he said 
> "31.Qe6" and entered that move (they both sound the same.)  
> Before anyone realized it, the mistake was officially posted, and 
> Gary could not retract it.
> 
> Generalmoe.

if this WAS true then I would also  say back up and start with 
correct move that GK wants to play.
However I need a whole lot more than one person on this BBS saying it 
is so without any mention of how he knows this.  not even unnamed 
source at MSN  or whatever.  Sheesh, man  your Commanding Officer 
would be most unhappy for you to spread scuttlebutt without a factual 
basis.

On Sat Aug 21 11:49:49, generalmoe wrote:
> He's responsible for this move.  Even though he wanted to play 
> 31.Qg6, the move actually posted is 31.Qxe6+.  These things happen.  
> Despite the miscommunication with Microsoft, Gary's good enough to 
> beat us with 31.Qxe6.
> 
> Generalmoe.
:)

On Sat Aug 21 11:39:58, don't know much about chess wrote:
> On Sat Aug 21 11:31:17, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
> > On Sat Aug 21 11:22:09, Curious George wrote:
> > > I played out some variations down to the end where it's GK's rook vs 
> > > our knight. Is this an automatic draw or a win for white?
> > 
> > It depends on the position.  Usually if the king and knight are far 
> > apart or at the edge of the board, the chance for white to find a win 
> > is greater.  If our king and knight have running room and the knight 
> > hovers around the king, it's most likely a draw.  Programs with the 
> > endgame tablebases will know instantly if we are drawn or not.  For 
> > those that are unfamiliar with tablebases, they are endgame databases 
> > that contain exact win or draw information for any configuration of 
> > up to five pieces (kings count as pieces in this nomenclature).  So 
> > the 4-man krkn tablebase has complete information on any possible 
> > position involving knight vs. rook, whether it's mate in 27 or draw.  
> > So we will know in advance if we can reach a drawn position or not, 
> > no way on earth Kasparov or anyone else can surprise there.
> 
> Do the tablebases also cover sparse positions with pawns, e.g. K+Q+P 
> vs K+Q?

Yes, all possible combinations of up to 5 men on the board are 
covered.  Dr. Eugene Nalimov of Microsoft made substantial 
improvements to the tablebases with a new compressed format, which 
also gives programs the ability to use the tablebases within the 
search tree. So if you had the kqpkq files, and the position on the 
board was, say, k+q+p+p vs k+q, a program that uses these tablebases 
would search to future positions that are within the tablebase.  One 
of the achilles' heels of computer chess programs is the horizon 
effect.  Say you have enough time to search 12 ply, but out at 15 ply 
there is some move that totally revises the correct eval of the 
current position, and the program may not see it.  When it gets to a 
position 12 ply out, it evaluates that position using it's evaluation 
function along with perhaps some selective deeper searching to try to 
get a firmer evaluation of that distant position.  But since chess is 
an exponential problem, you can only go so deep.  However if you are 
searching a position where material has liquidated down to 5 men on 
the board (which can happen even from the middlegame sometimes), you 
get an *exact* evaluation returned.  For example Crafty on Dr. 
Hyatt's (Crafty's author) quad-Xeon machine played a very interesting 
blitz game on ICC against GM Loek Van Wely, a very complicated 
Najdorf Poisoned Pawn game.  Van Wely made an inaccurate move in the 
endgame, and two moves later Crafty announced mate in 38. :) How's 
that for a morale-killer? :)  That's superhuman chess no one can 
compete with.  God could only play slightly better at that point, 
since some of the tablebase values involving mate in 37 and other 
large numbers might run afoul of the 50-move rule in rare positions.  
Hence the computer knows it has a technical win, but the game will 
still draw in such a case.  Other than that tablebases offer 
superhuman play in the endgame, even Kasparov wouldn't stand a chance 
against the computer verdict at that point.  Since the queens are now 
off the board, the number of legal moves per ply is reduced, and 
computers can search much deeper.  They still have their problems, 
but assessing a 5-man position is not one of them. :)

> > On Sat Aug 21 11:49:49, generalmoe wrote:
> > > He's responsible for this move.  Even though he wanted to play 
> > > 31.Qg6, the move actually posted is 31.Qxe6+.  These things happen.  

GeneralMoe,
How did you find this out? I thought he also would play Qg6 and was 
surprised to see the queen trade. I was getting discouraged, because 
none of my suggested moves for GK have proved to be correct since I 
joined in more than two weeks ago.

On Sat Aug 21 12:00:36, Henry Murrell wrote:
> but Qg6 is a lousy move
> 
> Qg6 Qg4 threatens both f3 AND Bf6 
> 
> 
> On Sat Aug 21 11:21:11, generalmoe wrote:
> > For those of you wondering why Gary played the weak 31.Qxe6+?, the 
> > answer is that he was traveling and away from his computer.  He 
> > phoned his move in.  He wanted to play the much better 31.Qg6.  The 
> > person at the other end of the phone at Microsoft thought he said 
> > "31.Qe6" and entered that move (they both sound the same.)  
> > Before anyone realized it, the mistake was officially posted, and 
> > Gary could not retract it.
> > 
> > Generalmoe.

Henry - Any debate about the merits of 31.Qg6 is moot. However, in no 
case is 31..Qg4? any problem after the simple 32.f3.

Generalmoe.

Who cares about this guy, Kasparov!

On Sat Aug 21 11:54:34, ATTENTION TO THE FIDE CHAMPION MATCH! wrote:
> That's it.
> No more analysis.
> 
> We are all dummies obeying the master.

Losing the bishop in the FAQ endgame E3b25)37.Rxh8 is not at all 
necessary as long as black doesn't play Bh8.

After:
E3) 33.fxg3 Bxg3! 34.h6 Be5
E3b) 35.h7! Bg7!

looks much better for black.


M.

On Sat Aug 21 12:00:55, kwest wrote:
> > > On Sat Aug 21 11:49:49, generalmoe wrote:
> > > > He's responsible for this move.  Even though he wanted to play 
> > > > 31.Qg6, the move actually posted is 31.Qxe6+.  These things happen.  
> 
> GeneralMoe,
> How did you find this out? I thought he also would play Qg6 and was 
> surprised to see the queen trade. I was getting discouraged, because 
> none of my suggested moves for GK have proved to be correct since I 
> joined in more than two weeks ago. 

As frustrating as this may sound, that's all I can tell you now.  
Sorry.

Generalmoe.

On Sat Aug 21 11:15:04, Ross Amann wrote:
> Even 35.Bd2 does not good. Black wins. Forget about 34.Kf2.
> 
Otto:
32.g3 fxg3
33.fxg3 b4
34.Kf2 Nb4 is illegal (black pawn on b4)
34... b3
35.Bd2 prevents 35...Nd4? 36.Bxd4 +-

> On Sat Aug 21 10:27:42, Otto ter Haar wrote:
> > On Sat Aug 21 10:01:18, OmniBob wrote:
> > > Here's the line given in the latest FAQ:
> > > 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 b3 35. g4 b2 36. Bd2, with advantage 
> > > for white.
> > > 
> > > My new idea is 35.. Na5! And after that:
> > 
> > Otto:
> > A possible improvement for white seems to me
> > 33...b4
> > 34.Kf2 b3
> > 35.Bd2 
> > pawn g3 is saved and field b4 is just made free.
> > 35...Kf5 is here neither a good manoeuvre, so this is the right 
> > moment to play Bd2.
> > 
> > Otto

...the outcome of the game is less than he expected.
  I can imagine him saying, "I could have won easily from move 31 
if I had been able to play Qg6 like I wanted...."
  :)

On Sat Aug 21 12:29:41, OmniBob wrote:
> The line general moe suggested was 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 b3 
> 35. g4 Nb4, so it's not illegal. Irina's FAQ doesn't even mention 35. 
> Bd2(yet another problem with the 33.. b4 portion of the FAQ) Otto: if 
> he puts his bishop on d2, how would it take a knight on d4?

Otto:
Please read carefully before you respond:
I suggested an improvement of my line: 35.Bd2 in stead of 35.g4 see 
below.
> 
>  
> > Otto:
> > 32.g3 fxg3
> > 33.fxg3 b4
> > 34.Kf2 Nb4 is illegal (black pawn on b4)
> > 34... b3
> > 35.Bd2 prevents 35...Nd4? 36.Bxd4 +-
> > 
> > > On Sat Aug 21 10:27:42, Otto ter Haar wrote:
> > > > On Sat Aug 21 10:01:18, OmniBob wrote:
> > > > > Here's the line given in the latest FAQ:
> > > > > 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 b3 35. g4 b2 36. Bd2, with advantage 
> > > > > for white.
> > > > > 
> > > > > My new idea is 35.. Na5! And after that:
> > > > 
> > > > Otto:
> > > > A possible improvement for white seems to me
> > > > 33...b4
> > > > 34.Kf2 b3
> > > > 35.Bd2 
> > > > pawn g3 is saved and field b4 is just made free.
> > > > 35...Kf5 is here neither a good manoeuvre, so this is the right 
> > > > moment to play Bd2.
> > > > 
> > > > Otto

I absolutely agree.  Everyone knows that Microsoft 
didn't make a mistake as Qxe6 was the best move for white.  On top of 
which when generalmoe says "as frustrating as this may sound, 
that's all i can tell you right now"  it is pretty obvious that 
he is simply trying to cause trouble because he can't give any 
meaningful analysis so he chooses to start flase rumors for 
attention.  I hope people on here are now so naive and stupid to 
believe generalmoe's idiotic comments.  Granted it is Microsoft, but 
do you really think Gary would let them get away with making a move 
that he did not choose?  Of course not, and in this case Qxe6 was a 
better move than Qg6 anyway.  It is just a shame that people like 
generalmoe are still active on this board, i thought that we weeded 
them all out by now.

1) 32.g3 fg 33.fg Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rf8 Ne5 37.Rxh8 Nf3+ 
38.Kf2 Nxg5 39.Ke3 b4 40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 b1=Q 43.h8=Q Qg1+ 
44.Kf4!, should be worked out whether this is a perpetual or not, if 
no perpetual or favorable queen exchange 35...Bh8 loses I think

bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/jd/46731.asp , is good basis 
for working on this


2) 32.g3 fg 33.fg Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 
38.Rxh8 is this really a draw as BMcC and CCC claim, or just some 
computer evaluation -0.21 at depth ~20. It should be made clear 
whether white can blockade black pawns or not, if white can blockade 
them he probably can eventually grab them allso. I fear computers are 
not very much help when trying to work this out.


The two above lines are quite questionable, and if it begins to look 
like that 33...Bxg3 doesnt hold then 33...b4 is the only alternative 
I suppose when 34.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2 is said to give white advantage. Any 
analysis of that line?



The following lines I dont think to be so critical anymore: 33.fg 
Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Bc1 Nd8! 37.Rf2 Bd4!=

and 33.f4 Kf5! 34.Kg2 Bh8! 35.Kxg3 b4 ( not 35...e5? as in FAQ ) or 
35.Rf3 e5! 36.Bh6 Nd4 37.Rxg3 b4 38.Rg5+ Ke6!=

IMO Questions to answer are:

Is 33...Bxg3 playable?
If not how black answers 33...b4 34.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2

On Sat Aug 21 13:11:52, IM2429 wrote:
> 1) 32.g3 fg 33.fg Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rf8 Ne5 37.Rxh8 Nf3+ 
> 38.Kf2 Nxg5 39.Ke3 b4 40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 b1=Q 43.h8=Q Qg1+ 
> 44.Kf4!, should be worked out whether this is a perpetual or not, if 
> no perpetual or favorable queen exchange 35...Bh8 loses I think
> 
> bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/jd/46731.asp , is good basis 
> for working on this
> 
> 
> 2) 32.g3 fg 33.fg Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 
> 38.Rxh8 is this really a draw as BMcC and CCC claim, or just some 
> computer evaluation -0.21 at depth ~20. It should be made clear 
> whether white can blockade black pawns or not, if white can blockade 
> them he probably can eventually grab them allso. I fear computers are 
> not very much help when trying to work this out.
> 
> 
> The two above lines are quite questionable, and if it begins to look 
> like that 33...Bxg3 doesnt hold then 33...b4 is the only alternative 
> I suppose when 34.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2 is said to give white advantage. Any 
> analysis of that line?
> 
> 
> 
> The following lines I dont think to be so critical anymore: 33.fg 
> Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Bc1 Nd8! 37.Rf2 Bd4!=
> 
> and 33.f4 Kf5! 34.Kg2 Bh8! 35.Kxg3 b4 ( not 35...e5? as in FAQ ) or 
> 35.Rf3 e5! 36.Bh6 Nd4 37.Rxg3 b4 38.Rg5+ Ke6!=
> 
> IMO Questions to answer are:
> 
> Is 33...Bxg3 playable?
> If not how black answers 33...b4 34.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2
> 
I posted this line before and concluded that Kasparov would queen, 
but would lose rook and bishop in process.  Here's how I worked it 
out:
32.g3   fxg3
33.fxg3 b4
34.Bf4  Bd4
35.Kg2  b3
36.h6   b2
37.g4   Nb4
38.g5   Nd3
39.Bd2  Ne5
40.Kh3  Nc4
41.Bc3  Bxc3
42.g6   Ne3
43.g7   Nxf1
44.g8(Q)Kd7
45.Qb3  Nd2
46.Qxb7 Kd8
47.Qb8+ Kd7  GK forced into perpetual check

I don't believe Garry intended to play 31.Qg6 instead of 31.Qxe6+

IMO Garry had to get rid of our Queen in order to keep advantage for 
his pieces (however small they might be) and to eliminate any 
possibilities of Black winning (however slight it might've been).

As I said before, THIS GAME IS A DRAW!

P.S.

No need to repeat here what's already been shown on this bulletin 
board. If anyone has a winning line for White or Black, please come 
forward with it.

The sum of the percentages for the 4 legal moves is 99.64%  This 
means at least 0.34% but less than 0.38% voted for an illegal 
move.

The minimum possible totals are 2202 through 2204, 2986-2990, 
3889-3909, 4404-4409

Despite this analysis, I think the recent vote totals are near 
10,000.  This vote should be lower, as the result was obvious.  But I 
estimate at least 6,000 voted this time.

Andy

..

There being no way Kasparov can check our King on this move, let us 
show our contempt for FirstUSA's "free" T-shirt scam -- a 
bait and switch with Kasparov as the bait and the switch being 
FirstUSA sucking up valuable credit records in exchange for NOTHING, 
by making our next move -- regardless of Kasparov's! --  Be5 to a1.

As I have said elsewhere, when an opponent cheats in a tournament, 
one immediately registers a protest.  Let us respond to FirstUSA's 
and Billionaire Gates's cheating by deliberately throwing away our 
Bishop.  THAT should serve to publicize this game in the world-wide 
media and demonstrate that we, as a chess community, do not 
appreciate being played for fools by billionaires.

Sitting through a month of FirstUSA advertising was one thing.  Being 
toyed with like children offered a sweet before being jabbed by a 
doctor's needle is quite another thing entirely!

For our own self-respect and for the dignity of the chess community, 
let us show our indignation by playing Be5 to A1.

(And for the benefit of the smart-asses who are going to suggest that 
this is sour grapes speaking, I did not even bother to apply for the 
credit card from this no-name bank.  Why should I, when Chase just 
offered me a Platinum Visa with a $100,000 line-of-credit at 3.9% 
 I don't NEED FirstUSA's damned card, but I WANT the T-shirt; I, and 
all of us, have EARNED them.)

Be5 to a1 for the dignity of chess players everywhere!
Down with the plutocrats and contempt to the cheaters!

On Sun Aug 22 00:16:17, Andy McFarland wrote:
> I have "won" 3 t-shirts in the chats.  None have arrived.  
> Anyone else get theirs ?
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
I won two in Danny King's chat and received both. Arrived Federal 
Express within a week of my sending request. (I live in Canada).

Most of us are here to play chess and don't care about some stupid 
T-shirt. If you're that pissed off with microsoft, I suggest you stop 
visiting this site.

They think you are whining in New Zealand.  That is almost like 15 
minutes of fame, right?  


The offer looks like a win-win deal to me.  You have to read *all* 
the details if you are random enough or purposeful enough to hover 
and read the hyperlink, and then click on it.  You only have to use 
the card once (insead of your usual yearly-maximum-rebate-exceeded 
card, for instance) after completely, honestly and accurately filling 
out the application fields and getting the card, to get the 
"free" T-shirt (6-8 weeks mailing, "U.S. Citizens" 
only).  You don't even have to spend for a postage stamp, do you?

i know it looks like capturing the pawn on g3 is the most logical 
choice, but for about the last 5 moves, kasparov has been forcing 
moves on the board.  i dont understand why he didnt just move g2-g4, 
it would have had the same outcome because the world would surely 
have executed an en-passant and we are right where we are right now.  
i voted for making a complete mess by moving the black king to f5.  
this would force a bishop exchange and black would definitely capture 
the passed pawn on h leaving kasparov with 3 pieces.  the only 
problem is that the black king has to make his way back towards the 
pawns to protect them.

anyway, just wanted to share my thoughts.

The 32.  ...  fxg3  33. f4!!  is far better for white than you may 
think. Check it out more before voting.

The f pawn will be used to block f6 for one turn to allow the h pawn 
to queen.

The current position is very sharp!  To see it from Kasparov's point 
of view, visit:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~lcabana/Chess.html

New main line (from Irina's FAQ):
(someone please verify?)
32...fxg3
33.fxg3 b4
34.Kf2!? b3!?
35.Bd2! b2!?
36.g4 Nd4
37.Be3 Nc6
38.Bxe5 Nxe5
39.Kg3 Nd3
40.Rb1 b5
41.Kh4 Kf6
42.g5+ Kg7
43.Kg4 e6
44.Kf3 Ne5+

Is 32. ...ND4 worth a vote?

check out the posts on the other page. we need to plan on Kasparvos 
playing 33.P-f4! very powerful move, he will either win or draw but 
he will not lose with this move!!

Too much emphasis seems to be placed on variations leading to a 
desirable end. This is useful, but it would appear there isn't a 
combination for black right now.
   Garry seems to have been going for an end-game by trading queens, 
so that may be where he is seeking to win or draw (the endgame).  
From the two moves being most considered right now, we should choose 
based on strategic considerations more than anything else. 
Personally, I'm leaning towards fg since the masters tend towards it, 
but there are strategic merits to both.  I would like to see some 
discussion on the strategy board that compared those merits with an 
open eye to both...

On Sun Aug 22 13:26:16, cls wrote:
> i know it looks like capturing the pawn on g3 is the most logical 
> choice, but for about the last 5 moves, kasparov has been forcing 
> moves on the board.  i dont understand why he didnt just move g2-g4, 
> it would have had the same outcome because the world would surely 
> have executed an en-passant and we are right where we are right now.  
> i voted for making a complete mess by moving the black king to f5.  
> this would force a bishop exchange and black would definitely capture 
> the passed pawn on h leaving kasparov with 3 pieces.  the only 
> problem is that the black king has to make his way back towards the 
> pawns to protect them.
> 
> anyway, just wanted to share my thoughts.

I don't think 32. g4 is quite as accurate, since black then has the 
options of other moves such as 32. ... b4, making things complicated. 
Garry, with 32. g3 threatens 33. gxf4 so forces a clearer line of 
play (i.e. 32. ... fxg3 or the risky 32. ... f3). On 32. g3 Kf5 I 
don't see the forced B exchange. The game could go 33. gxf4 Bxf4 34. 
Bxf4 Kxf4 35. h6 and black is dead meat since 35. ... Ne5 36. h7 Ng6 
37. Kh2 followed by 38. Rg1 and 39. Rg8 looks crushing. What are you 
thinking if not this line?

please consider that we have to kill the white pawns more than worry 
about the rook.  f3 gives us to many pawn problems with white.  The 
rook will come into play  what Nd4 does AFTER fxg is force the rook 
away from f column.  Please look at this and see why f3 is not needed 
and indeed negates the ACTIVE side of the Nd4 move which is to keep 
after whites pawns while using the b4, etc. distraction to its 
fullest resource.

here is the line I Think better than b4.

32. g3   fxg
33. fxg  Nd4

  if 
  34. h6  Ne2+   (Nd4 also ends h6 threat AFTER fxg)
  if 
  35. Kg2 Nxg3 
   if 
   36. Rf3  Nf5  and the dreaded Rf8 is blocked and we have the g and 
f pawns of white off the board.
   if 
   36. Rb1 Ne4  and it transposes to Kf2 line below
  
  if
  35. Kf2  Nxg3
  36. Rb1  Ne4+
  37. Ke3  Nxg5
  38. Rxb5 Nf7    (and it looks like either Bishop and Knight on rook 
 or Knight and two pawns on King. Black wins .   so Nd4 stops the h6 
move pretty effectively

    
most likely in Nd4 2 lines are
A
34. Kf2  b4 
  if
  34. kf2  Nf5 
  35. g4   Ng3  and bad for Black 
35. h6   Ne2
36. g4   B3
  if 
  37. h7  Bh8
  38. Rf8 b2    (and obviously to late for white)
37. Rb1  b2
38. Bd2  Ng3
39. h7   Ne4   I see no way for White to get a queen before we clear 
the rook and get our own or watch GK give up his rook or bishop to 
stop our queening 

B
34. kf2  Nf5 
35. Rb1  Nxg3
36. Rxb5 Nxh5
37. Rxb2 Be6

we are down to Knight and and two pawns with centralized pawns  VS 
rook and King seperated.  You can not promote a rook so this is draw 
at worst and With all our talent I am sure we can figure out how to 
promote one of our two remaining pawns.  I unfortunately have not had 
the time to play this last part out yet.  I will work on this next 
unless someone refutes this Nd4 line to me.

Hasn't made a move in 35 minutes.  Has a lost position, knows it, so 
looking at every possible angle before resigning.

On Sun Aug 22 19:44:08, Brother Bozo wrote:
> Hasn't made a move in 35 minutes.  Has a lost position, knows it, so 
> looking at every possible angle before resigning.

He's still playing.  

Generalmoe.

He has the better position (Black is all bottled up) however being 
down a piece means he has to be very careful.

On Sun Aug 22 19:50:50, chesslad wrote:
> He has the better position (Black is all bottled up) however being 
> down a piece means he has to be very careful.  
 He is about to lose his bishop for a knight

What if Vladamir had moved the queen to c3 instead of the rook to e 3 
to protec the pawn. Or am I missing something.

On Sun Aug 22 19:59:20, chesslad wrote:
> What if Vladamir had moved the queen to c3 instead of the rook to e 3 
> to protec the pawn. Or am I missing something.
> 
Why 45.Qa3?  Won't the exchange of queens benefit 
Khalifman?

On Sun Aug 22 19:59:20, chesslad wrote:
> What if Vladamir had moved the queen to c3 instead of the rook to e 3 
> to protec the pawn. Or am I missing something.
> 

Hmmm.  Probably would have been good move, but I'm not sure.

He may be maneuvering himself to clear the a7 pawn with his rook 
after a few exchanges.  Perhaps to advance his own pawn later on?

On Sun Aug 22 19:50:50, chesslad wrote:
> He has the better position (Black is all bottled up) however being 
> down a piece means he has to be very careful.  

Now that the Queen exchange has happened, Black's Knight on f6 is no 
longer pinned.

As GM Rohdes put it on 45. Qa3, "White cannot put up any more 
real resistance in this position."

Regards, Steve B.

Does anyone have an idea just how much time is left in this match?

On Sun Aug 22 20:20:16, Steve B wrote:
> On Sun Aug 22 19:50:50, chesslad wrote:
> > He has the better position (Black is all bottled up) however being 
> > down a piece means he has to be very careful.  
> 
> Now that the Queen exchange has happened, Black's Knight on f6 is no 
> longer pinned.
> 
> As GM Rohdes put it on 45. Qa3, "White cannot put up any more 
> real resistance in this position."
> 
> Regards, Steve B.

And is about to lose a pawn.   It should be over soon.

On Sun Aug 22 20:07:33, chesslad wrote:
> He may be maneuvering himself to clear the a7 pawn with his rook 
> after a few exchanges.  Perhaps to advance his own pawn later on?

It seems as of 51... Ke5 Khalifman is moving aggresively to either 
take the c6 pawn or force a Knight/Bishop exchange.  White can only 
choose which way he will get ground down into resignation.

Regards, Steve B.

On Sun Aug 22 20:20:52, chesslad wrote:
> Does anyone have an idea just how much time is left in this match?
probably goes to 12:00 EST (w/o resign)

On Sun Aug 22 20:26:44, Brother Bozo wrote:
> On Sun Aug 22 20:20:16, Steve B wrote:
> > On Sun Aug 22 19:50:50, chesslad wrote:
> > > He has the better position (Black is all bottled up) however being 
> > > down a piece means he has to be very careful.  
> > 
> > Now that the Queen exchange has happened, Black's Knight on f6 is no 
> > longer pinned.
> > 
> > As GM Rohdes put it on 45. Qa3, "White cannot put up any more 
> > real resistance in this position."
> > 
> > Regards, Steve B.
> 
> And is about to lose a pawn.   It should be over soon.

Yes, I looks like the c6 pawn will fall or White must accept 
exchanging his Bishop for a Knight.

Regards, Steve B.

On Sun Aug 22 20:26:44, Brother Bozo wrote:
> On Sun Aug 22 20:20:16, Steve B wrote:
> > On Sun Aug 22 19:50:50, chesslad wrote:
> > > He has the better position (Black is all bottled up) however being 
> > > down a piece means he has to be very careful.  
> > 
> > Now that the Queen exchange has happened, Black's Knight on f6 is no 
> > longer pinned.
> > 
> > As GM Rohdes put it on 45. Qa3, "White cannot put up any more 
> > real resistance in this position."
> > 
> > Regards, Steve B.
> 
> And is about to lose a pawn.   It should be over soon.

And the c6 pawn just did fall to Black.  White plays on with f4.  He 
is tenacious, even when playing with the chips down.

Regards, Steve B.

On Sun Aug 22 20:33:35, Steve B. wrote:
> On Sun Aug 22 20:26:44, Brother Bozo wrote:
> > On Sun Aug 22 20:20:16, Steve B wrote:
> > > On Sun Aug 22 19:50:50, chesslad wrote:
> > > > He has the better position (Black is all bottled up) however being 
> > > > down a piece means he has to be very careful.  
> > > 
> > > Now that the Queen exchange has happened, Black's Knight on f6 is no 
> > > longer pinned.
> > > 
> > > As GM Rohdes put it on 45. Qa3, "White cannot put up any more 
> > > real resistance in this position."
> > > 
> > > Regards, Steve B.
> > 
> > And is about to lose a pawn.   It should be over soon.
> 
> Yes, I looks like the c6 pawn will fall or White must accept 
> exchanging his Bishop for a Knight.
> 
> Regards, Steve B.
Akopian resigns at move 58

On Sun Aug 22 19:44:08, Brother Bozo wrote:
> Hasn't made a move in 35 minutes.  Has a lost position, knows it, so 
> looking at every possible angle before resigning.

Akopian's ill fated Knight sacrifice ends in victory for Khalifman.

Regards, Steve B.

++

Elisabeth is not given high marks by Kasparov for nothing.  F3 works. 
 I don't like the pawn capure because it opens the file for the rook. 
 The problem that Irina proposes concerning the two passed pawn can 
be met by 1.) advancing the d4 pawn as a counterattack and 2.) 
sealing in the rook activity by b4 and the bishop at c3.  3.) The 
black king's mobility to f5 can stop any further advance of the g 
pawn.  4.) the push of the pawn to f3 also makes the black night more 
powerful, take note it has the check potential at e2 and the d4 
square as options.  5. Finally, and the main point the white king is 
sealed in and can only make headway to the h file.  The question is 
can the white king move up the h file to do its dirty work before 
black can counter with the d pawn in the center.

On Sun Aug 22 20:40:34, Brother Bozo wrote:
> On Sun Aug 22 20:33:35, Steve B. wrote:
> > On Sun Aug 22 20:26:44, Brother Bozo wrote:
> > > On Sun Aug 22 20:20:16, Steve B wrote:
> > > > On Sun Aug 22 19:50:50, chesslad wrote:
> > > > > He has the better position (Black is all bottled up) however being 
> > > > > down a piece means he has to be very careful.  
> > > > 
> > > > Now that the Queen exchange has happened, Black's Knight on f6 is no 
> > > > longer pinned.
> > > > 
> > > > As GM Rohdes put it on 45. Qa3, "White cannot put up any more 
> > > > real resistance in this position."
> > > > 
> > > > Regards, Steve B.
> > > 
> > > And is about to lose a pawn.   It should be over soon.
> > 
> > Yes, I looks like the c6 pawn will fall or White must accept 
> > exchanging his Bishop for a Knight.
> > 
> > Regards, Steve B.
> Akopian resigns at move 58

Amazing blunder on move 17, knight for two pawns was all he got

On Sun Aug 22 20:45:05, lovestomate wrote:
> Elisabeth is not given high marks by Kasparov for nothing.  F3 works. 
>  I don't like the pawn capure because it opens the file for the rook. 
>  The problem that Irina proposes concerning the two passed pawn can 
> be met by 1.) advancing the d4 pawn as a counterattack and 2.) 
> sealing in the rook activity by b4 and the bishop at c3.  3.) The 
> black king's mobility to f5 can stop any further advance of the g 
> pawn.  4.) the push of the pawn to f3 also makes the black night more 
> powerful, take note it has the check potential at e2 and the d4 
> square as options.  5. Finally, and the main point the white king is 
> sealed in and can only make headway to the h file.  The question is 
> can the white king move up the h file to do its dirty work before 
> black can counter with the d pawn in the center.
I totally agree with that. Unfortunately there is no chance f3 will 
be played because Krush and Felecan both gave long explanations to 
their wrong move while Elizabeth just put a couple of lines for the 
right move because she thought it was obvious.

On Sun Aug 22 20:55:27, Loner wrote:
> On Sun Aug 22 20:45:05, lovestomate wrote:
> > Elisabeth is not given high marks by Kasparov for nothing.  F3 works. 
> >  I don't like the pawn capure because it opens the file for the rook. 
> >  The problem that Irina proposes concerning the two passed pawn can 
> > be met by 1.) advancing the d4 pawn as a counterattack and 2.) 
> > sealing in the rook activity by b4 and the bishop at c3.  3.) The 
> > black king's mobility to f5 can stop any further advance of the g 
> > pawn.  4.) the push of the pawn to f3 also makes the black night more 
> > powerful, take note it has the check potential at e2 and the d4 
> > square as options.  5. Finally, and the main point the white king is 
> > sealed in and can only make headway to the h file.  The question is 
> > can the white king move up the h file to do its dirty work before 
> > black can counter with the d pawn in the center.
> I totally agree with that. Unfortunately there is no chance f3 will 
> be played because Krush and Felecan both gave long explanations to 
> their wrong move while Elizabeth just put a couple of lines for the 
> right move because she thought it was obvious.


THE BULLETIN DISCUSSIONS GIVE LONG EXPLANATIONS , BUT ALL OVER THE 
PLACES...

On Sun Aug 22 20:45:05, lovestomate wrote:
> Elisabeth is not given high marks by Kasparov for nothing.  F3 works. 


Best analysis of the alternatives is at the Russian Grandmaster site:

http://www.gmchess.spb.ru/english/kasworld/sici59.html

They believe that f3 does not work and that fxg3 works only if 
followed by Bxg3, and even then only because even though White ends 
up a rook for three pawns ahead, he can't escape pepetual check.

On Sun Aug 22 20:44:12, steni wrote:
> ++

[Event "World Chess Championship"]
[Site "Las Vegas USA"]
[Date "1999.08.22"]
[Round "21"]
[White "V. Akopian"]
[Black "A. Khalifman"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. b4 Bg7 4. Bb2 O-O 5. g3 d6 6. Bg2 e5 7. d3 Nh5
8. Nc3 f5 9. O-O Nc6 10. b5 Ne7 11. e4 c5 12. bxc6ep bxc6 13. c5 d5
14. exd5 cxd5 15. Qb3 e4 16. dxe4 fxe4 17. Nxe4 Bxb2 18. Qxb2 dxe4 19.
Ng5 Bf5 20. Nxe4 Rb8 21. Qc3 Nd5 22. Qa3 Bxe4 23. Bxe4 Nhf6 24. Bf3
Qc7 25. Rac1 Ne7 26. c6 Nf5 27. Qc3 Rbc8 28. Rfe1 Qg7 29. Rcd1 Rc7 30.
Re6 h5 31. Qe5 Kh7 32. h3 Ng8 33. Qe4 Nf6 34. Qe5 Ng8 35. Qe4 Rf6 36.
Rxf6 Nxf6 37. Qb4 Qe7 38. Qb8 Nd6 39. g4 hxg4 40. hxg4 Nf7 41. Kg2 Kg7
42. Re1 Qd8 43. Qb2 Ng5 44. Re3 Qd6 45. Qa3 Qxa3 46. Rxa3 Kf7 47. Be2
Ne6 48. Ra4 Nd5 49. Bf3 Ne7 50. Kg3 Kf6 51. Rc4 Ke5 52. Rc1 Nd4 53.
Re1+ Kf6 54. Bg2 Nexc6 55. f4 Ne7 56. Bf1 Rc3+ 57. Kg2 Nc2 0-1

Yes, although oddly, if you play through game using the Java applet 
at www.worldfide.com, it ends by announcing *Akopian WINS*.

Oops!

A wild game from Akopian, playing 3.b4 and then blundering a piece at 
move 17 leaving him with a technically lost position. Khalifman was 
clinical in convertng his advantage

Steve Gardner

fxg3:
1) keeps material even (assuming Garry's fxg3)
2) opens the d4-gi diag. to Garry's King!
3) likewise, does not allow Garry's King a shelter after Black's f3
4} and does not allow Garry to protect his h pawn with g4
5} finally, Black gets the initative after Garry's must do of fxg3

Vote for fxg3.

F3 is a winning move for the World Team!
I checked the Faq and it was weak, missing was our winning move which 
is as follows:

32. ...  f3
33. Rb1  b4
34. g4   d5  (d5 is the key)

or the variation as I see it:

33. g4   b4
34. Rb1  d5 
35. Be3  Bc3 
36. h6   d4 
37. Bc1  Ne5 
38. h7   Nf7 
39. Bg5  d3 
40. Be3  Kf6 
41. Rd1  b3 
42. Rxd3 b2 
43. Rd1  Kg7 
44. Kh2  Ne5 
45. Kg3  Kxh7 
46. Bg5  Nc4 
47. Bxe7 Nd2 
48. Bg5  b1Q 
49. Rxb1 Nxb1 
50. Kxf3 Kg6 
51. Bd8  b5  and we will WIN!


The best I see with fxg3 is maybe a draw: 

 [32...fxg3 33.fxg3 (33.f4 Kf5 34.Kg2 Kg4 35.h6 Bh8 36.Rf3 b4 
37.Rxg3+ Kh5 38.Rh3+ Kg6 39.Rd3 Nd4 40.Bxe7 b3 41.Bxd6 b2 42.Rd1 Nb5 
43.f5+ Kxh6 44.Bf4+ Kh7 45.Rh1+ Kg8 46.Rxh8+ Kxh8 47.Be5+ Kg8 48.Bxb2 
Nd6 49.f6 Kf7 50.Kf3 b5 51.Ke3 Nc4+ 52.Kd4 Nxb2 53.Kc5 Kxf6 54.Kxb5) 
33...Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Bh6 Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bg7 39.Bh6 
Bd4 40.Be3]

What do you think?

..we do not think any line......any "main" line is refuted 
upon analysis at this stage yet.  However, as a matter of simple 
principle, white's only winning chances lie in his pawns (with 
perhaps the exception of the long shot rook vs. 4 pawn ending), fxg 
eliminates one, while b4 now, allows white greater options (g4, gxf 
etc.,, and perhaps even rook activation on the g file.



On Sun Aug 22 22:22:41, Ogodei wrote:
> It's probably too late now, but why won't ANYBODY even check out 
> 32.... b4.???
> Danny King's analysis listed it as one of Black's three possible 
> moves.
> I've been posting it for 2 days (OK, I'm no "serious analyst" 
> - not enough time, no track record) but nobody has even bothered to 
> try to refute it.
> Opening the f-file with fxg3 is suicide!
> No winning line yet discovered for White (after ...b4), nor even a 
> certain draw!
> What the hell, I'm voting for it anyway.
> Good night all...

World team:

I predicted 30.Qf5 while everybody was considering 30.Qf8,I predicted 
32.g3 while everybody was waiting 32.g4.

Now I am telling you that Kasparov will play:33.f4

Are we prepared for that move?.

World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier.

http://watch.at/chesstree

Please note: The file is too big, it may take few minutes to get 
loaded!. [I hope it's worth it.]

Let's be logical about this, if GK wanted two passed pawns he would 
have played g4, but no he played g3 instead. He want's us to take the 
pawn and in return he gets two passed connected pawns and BONUS, the 
open f file for his rook. Let us play against is mind frame and play 
f3 keeping the f file closed and then our king, if need be, can swing 
to the king side to stop the pawns. An open f file for his rook and 
our king can't get there.

*
On Sun Aug 22 22:42:21, K57 wrote:
> F3 is a winning move for the World Team!
> I checked the Faq and it was weak, missing was our winning move which 
> is as follows:
> 
> 32. ...  f3
> 33. Rb1  b4
> 34. g4   d5  (d5 is the key)
> 
> or the variation as I see it:
> 
> 33. g4   b4
> 34. Rb1  d5 
> 35. Be3  Bc3 
> 36. h6   d4 
> 37. Bc1  Ne5 
> 38. h7   Nf7 
> 39. Bg5  d3 
> 40. Be3  Kf6 
> 41. Rd1  b3 
> 42. Rxd3 b2 
> 43. Rd1  Kg7 
> 44. Kh2  Ne5 
> 45. Kg3  Kxh7 
> 46. Bg5  Nc4 
> 47. Bxe7 Nd2 
> 48. Bg5  b1Q 
> 49. Rxb1 Nxb1 
> 50. Kxf3 Kg6 
> 51. Bd8  b5  and we will WIN!
> 
> 
> The best I see with fxg3 is maybe a draw: 
> 
>  [32...fxg3 33.fxg3 (33.f4 Kf5 34.Kg2 Kg4 35.h6 Bh8 36.Rf3 b4 
> 37.Rxg3+ Kh5 38.Rh3+ Kg6 39.Rd3 Nd4 40.Bxe7 b3 41.Bxd6 b2 42.Rd1 Nb5 
> 43.f5+ Kxh6 44.Bf4+ Kh7 45.Rh1+ Kg8 46.Rxh8+ Kxh8 47.Be5+ Kg8 48.Bxb2 
> Nd6 49.f6 Kf7 50.Kf3 b5 51.Ke3 Nc4+ 52.Kd4 Nxb2 53.Kc5 Kxf6 54.Kxb5) 
> 33...Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Bh6 Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bg7 39.Bh6 
> Bd4 40.Be3]
> 
> What do you think?

Well, for the first time, I am considering deviating from the 
analysts, and voting b4. If gxf4, then bc3, with eventual  Kf5 and 
perhaps e5 and our knight can join the fray. This appears to me, 
anyway, to stop the h and g pawns, keeps white's bishop locked, 
forces Kasparov to use his own moves to activate his rook, and 
furthers our own passed pawn, though it also weakens our position in 
certain ways, and there is still the f2 pawn to worry about. 
  Perhaps I am wrong, I don't have the current FAQ, but I just don't 
like giving Kasparov a tempo or two in certain lines by releasing 
that rook with fxg3, even though it seems likely to be voted in; so I 
guess my vote is simply a small voice of protest. Oh well; I hope our 
endgame experts keep up the good work!!
GO WORLD!

fxg3

I agree with you. F3 is our best move, but it is late know.We can't 
win the vote against Irina.We are playing without considering Garry's 
plans,and in Chess that is a mistake.

World Soldier

[dr.Reidenschneider views on SMART-FAQ ]

Kasparov,G - The World [B52]
32.g3 Microsoft Gaming Zone, 23.08.1999

32.g3 fxg3  
33.fxg3 b4
34.Kf2 b3  
35.Bd2 b2 
36.g4!  

36...Kf7     

(not in faq) perhaps necessary move to               save the game.

37.Ke2+ Kg8 
38.Kd3 Bg7± 

[36...Na7?! 
37.Ke3!!   

 This move solves it all not allowing function           Nb5 + Bc3

37...Nb5 
38.Bb4 Nc7 
39.Kd3 Nd5 
40.Bd2! dr.R: Why not this? The natural move. The pawns seems 
unstoppable. Most likely a won position. 

36...Nd4?!  This have nearly always been the wrong idea. 
37.Bc3! +-
White gets to trade the bishops for free

And the plan (not in faq) to try to consistently play for Nc4, Nb3 by

36... b6    

seems a little bit slow

37. Ke3!   

 And the king is in range of the pawns. If

37... Na5?
38. Bxa5 bxa5
39. Kd3 +-

What more to look out for:
Additionally all the gambit possibilities where
pawn g3 is at stake. Perhaps still poisoned
Hurry with Kf7 ?

dr. Reidenschneider

I'm glad that you have changed your minds to support
33... b4.


dr. Reidenscheider corrections of
Smart-chess faq regarding
36. Bc1 - line

32. g3 fxg3
33. fxg3 Bxg3?
34. h6 Be5
35. h7 Bh8 or Bg7
36. Bc1!

With the idea Rf2 + Bb2 trading bishops

36... Nd8
37. Rf2        

And if now

37... Bd4        
38. Be3 Bc3   ( 38... Bxe3 the endgame N + 4 pawns vs Q is lost) 

then

39. Kf1! Nf7      (Not! 39. Rf8? as in faq (wrong plan))

this position could also be reached from

38. Kf1 Nf7
39. Be3! Bc3   

(of moves given here in faq after 38...Nf7: 39. Rg2?, Rd2?, Re2?, 
Rf3!? 
only 39. Rf3!? meets the positional demands of the idea.)

40. Ke2 Bf6
41. Kd3
   
Consistently following the plan to trade the bishops.
Black must give the b-pawn to prevent the Bd4 plan.
White can defend the far advanced pawn cramping the black troups. 
Unable to create sufficient counterplay, black is lost.

dr. Erwin Reidenschneider

On Sun Aug 22 23:08:06, World Soldier. wrote:
> 
> I agree with you. F3 is our best move, but it is late know.We can't 
> win the vote against Irina.We are playing without considering Garry's 
> plans,and in Chess that is a mistake.
> 
> World Soldier

   I agree, but I don't like f3. A simple g4 after f3 and Kasparov 
would still have connected passed pawns, if he really wanted them. f3 
gives an interesting square to our knight, if we can somehow keep our 
b pawns AND stop Kasparov's h pawn.  Instead, I prefer Danny's brief 
reference to b4 better than f3. The darn thing is, this is a very 
complicated end game <duh> and no one will truly know which 
works better for black, until it is all played out. ;)

Count me out, I am for f3, click 
http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/tp/47729.asp  to see why.

On Sun Aug 22 22:57:50, Chantal wrote:
> Let's be logical about this, if GK wanted two passed pawns he would 
> have played g4, but no he played g3 instead. He want's us to take the 
> pawn and in return he gets two passed connected pawns and BONUS, the 
> open f file for his rook.

On the contrary.  Since we could capture the pawn with the same 
effect whether he moved to g3 or g4, this move shows little about 
GK's opinion concerning the pawn exchange.  What it means is that of 
the two scenarios in which we do not exchange pawns, he considers 32. 
g3 f3 to be better for him.  This does not prove that f3 is inferior 
(in GK's opinion) to fxg3, but it is an indication thereof.

> Let us play against is mind frame and play 
> f3 keeping the f file closed and then our king, if need be, can swing 
> to the king side to stop the pawns. An open f file for his rook and 
> our king can't get there.

You are correct that our king should move toward the kingside.  
However, if given enough time, our knight can form a shield for our 
king.  If GK tries to deprive us of that time, he will have to move 
the rook off the f-file.

Young and Naive

On Sun Aug 22 22:53:47,  World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier. wrote:
> 
> World team:
> 
> I predicted 30.Qf5 while everybody was considering 30.Qf8,I predicted 
> 32.g3 while everybody was waiting 32.g4.
> 
> Now I am telling you that Kasparov will play:33.f4
> 
> Are we prepared for that move?.
> 
> World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier.

IK's FAQ shows Black's response as 33... Bh8.  Commentary in the FAQ 
suggests 33. f4 is not White's strongest move.  It looks like White 
stands to loose all his remaining pawns and the end game will come 
down to White R+B+K against Black B+N+2P+K end game, most probably a 
draw.

Besides, last I checked Nostradamus was doing a stint for McDonnalds 
Hamburgers.  <g>

Regards, Steve B.

32..fxg will be played see link

http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/pp/47725.asp

On Sun Aug 22 22:53:47,  World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier. wrote:
> 
> World team:
> 
> I predicted 30.Qf5 while everybody was considering 30.Qf8,I predicted 
> 32.g3 while everybody was waiting 32.g4.
> 
> Now I am telling you that Kasparov will play:33.f4
> 
> Are we prepared for that move?.
> 
> World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier.

It's a fair question to ask. I must've missed your g3 prediction - In 
fairness you could scarcily claim g3 hasn't been analysed in some 
depth though. 

If f4 then the question may become can we draw with a knight and 2 
doubled pawns against a rook, because if he plays PxB he loses the h 
pawn after Kf5 Kxg5 Kxh5 surely? We'll then (I think) soon lose our d 
pawn to a fork - and a rook against doubled pawns doesn't thrill me 
altogether. Am I warm?

On Sun Aug 22 23:31:58, Steve B. wrote:
> On Sun Aug 22 22:53:47,  World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier. wrote:
> > 
> > World team:
> > 
> > I predicted 30.Qf5 while everybody was considering 30.Qf8,I predicted 
> > 32.g3 while everybody was waiting 32.g4.
> > 
> > Now I am telling you that Kasparov will play:33.f4
> > 
> > Are we prepared for that move?.
> > 
> > World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier.
> 
> IK's FAQ shows Black's response as 33... Bh8.  Commentary in the FAQ 
> suggests 33. f4 is not White's strongest move.  It looks like White 
> stands to loose all his remaining pawns and the end game will come 
> down to White R+B+K against Black B+N+2P+K end game, most probably a 
> draw.
> 
> Besides, last I checked Nostradamus was doing a stint for McDonnalds 
> Hamburgers.  <g>
> 
> Regards, Steve B.

But if it's the d pawn that falls - how do you plan to hang onto 
doubled pawns against a rook? I'd like to see the drawing line before 
putting that particular bone down.

On Sun Aug 22 23:31:58, Steve B. wrote:
> On Sun Aug 22 22:53:47,  World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier. wrote:
> > 
> > World team:
> > 
> > I predicted 30.Qf5 while everybody was considering 30.Qf8,I predicted 
> > 32.g3 while everybody was waiting 32.g4.
> > 
> > Now I am telling you that Kasparov will play:33.f4
> > 
> > Are we prepared for that move?.
> > 
> > World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier.
> 
> IK's FAQ shows Black's response as 33... Bh8.  Commentary in the FAQ 
> suggests 33. f4 is not White's strongest move.  It looks like White 
> stands to loose all his remaining pawns and the end game will come 
> down to White R+B+K against Black B+N+2P+K end game, most probably a 
> draw.
> 
> Besides, last I checked Nostradamus was doing a stint for McDonnalds 
> Hamburgers.  <g>
> 
> Regards, Steve B.


I SAID JUST FOR STEVE, AND YOU ARE NOT STEVE SO GET OUT

Steve:

It's late at night, and I got to get to sleep.I think there is no 
many people in the chat so i will tell you a little secret.
I have the same idea of which will be Garry's next move than the 
other players.But i predicted successfully the last four moves, and 
two of them where not easy (Qf5 and g3).Garry makes his move three 
hours before we all know it,but IRINA knows at that time.When Irina 
recibes the move she starts asking analysis to other people about 
that move to prepare her recomendation.Irina posts using other 
names.i just learned to recongnize those posts,so l never failed.I 
make my prediction now and if i see that Garry played the same move 
that i predicted,i just say nothing.If not, two hours before we all 
know the move,i change my prediction to the one I know and I start to 
say it loud in the chat.
So If garry playes the crazy f4, i won't say nothing.If not I will 
change my prediction  before the voting time.
Most of the people knows this is same kind of joke and just a way to 
talk about the game,and we have interesting replies.Others think that 
i am just arrogant and starts fighting.But I have fun with all.

Well Steve,don't tell anybody,and you will see that two hours before 
we all know Garry's move i never fail a prediction.

Bye.

World Soldier

On Sun Aug 22 23:50:39, Slapdash wrote:
> On Sun Aug 22 22:53:47,  World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier. wrote:
> > 
> > World team:
> > 
> > I predicted 30.Qf5 while everybody was considering 30.Qf8,I predicted 
> > 32.g3 while everybody was waiting 32.g4.
> > 
> > Now I am telling you that Kasparov will play:33.f4
> > 
> > Are we prepared for that move?.
> > 
> > World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier.
> 
> It's a fair question to ask. I must've missed your g3 prediction - In 
> fairness you could scarcily claim g3 hasn't been analysed in some 
> depth though. 
> 
> If f4 then the question may become can we draw with a knight and 2 
> doubled pawns against a rook, because if he plays PxB he loses the h 
> pawn after Kf5 Kxg5 Kxh5 surely? We'll then (I think) soon lose our d 
> pawn to a fork - and a rook against doubled pawns doesn't thrill me 
> altogether. Am I warm? 
To Slapdash:
:-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Sun Aug 22 14:33:10, LCabana - please verify main line wrote:
> The current position is very sharp!  To see it from Kasparov's point 
> of view, visit:
> 
> http://mailer.fsu.edu/~lcabana/Chess.html
> 
> New main line (from Irina's FAQ):
> (someone please verify?)
> 32...fxg3
> 33.fxg3 b4
> 34.Kf2!? b3!?
> 35.Bd2! b2!?
> 36.g4 Nd4
> 37.Be3 Nc6
> 38.Bxe5 Nxe5
> 39.Kg3 Nd3
> 40.Rb1 b5
> 41.Kh4 Kf6
> 42.g5+ Kg7
> 43.Kg4 e6
> 44.Kf3 Ne5+
    I believe that is 37. Bc3 rather than 37. Be3

On Sun Aug 22 15:18:28, headhundt wrote:
> Is 32. ...ND4 worth a vote?

     Probably not.  How do we recover the pawn & not make trades that 
look bad for us?
    Off the top of my head anaylsis...
      33. gf  Ne2
      34. Kg2 Nf4
      35. Bg4 Bg4
      36. Rb1 & our lovely passed pawn passes from the scene.

On Sun Aug 22 10:00:25, sme wrote:
> They think you are whining in New Zealand.  That is almost like 15 
> minutes of fame, right?  

I wasn't the one who was whining.
Let me clarify things. This is a corporate web site/BB. Where there 
are corporations, there is advertising, and where there is 
advertising there is bullshit. We need to accept that, and develop 
the essential skill of recognising bullshit when we see it.

If someone wants to have a moan at Microsoft and First USA, good luck 
to him. Personally I have more pressing things to worry about (like 
whether Australia or South Africa will improve enough to threaten the 
All Blacks at the Rugby World Cup).

Nor do I really care that it's for US citizens only. It's a bit like 
those competitions that we aren't allowed to enter when we're 
watching cricket matches from Australia, or the freebies we don't get 
when we buy British and American magazines. Mildly annoying, but not 
something to make a big issue of.

What really annoyed me was the asinine suggestion that we should 
throw one of the most fascinating games in chess history over some 
stupid bloody T-shirt promo. Understand my position now?

And by the way, New Zealand may be a small country, but we don't 
appreciate being patronised.

I suggest not to follow the sequence 32. g3 fxg3 
33. f2xg3 e5xg3. At this point GK would move the rook to f8, which 
would lead to a double threat (pawn on h column ready to descent and 
b/pawns on b column ready to be captured once we move the Knight). 
Maybe my analisys is wrong somewhere (help me to find where...) but i 
think our best move is 32. ... f3.

> > > 
> > > I predicted 30.Qf5 while everybody was considering 30.Qf8,I predicted 
> > > 32.g3 while everybody was waiting 32.g4.
> > > 
> > > Now I am telling you that Kasparov will play:33.f4
> > > 
> > > Are we prepared for that move?.
> > > 
> > > World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier.
> > 
> > It's a fair question to ask. I must've missed your g3 prediction - In 
> > fairness you could scarcily claim g3 hasn't been analysed in some 
> > depth though. 
> > 
> > If f4 then the question may become can we draw with a knight and 2 
> > doubled pawns against a rook, because if he plays PxB he loses the h 
> > pawn after Kf5 Kxg5 Kxh5 surely? We'll then (I think) soon lose our d 
> > pawn to a fork - and a rook against doubled pawns doesn't thrill me 
> > altogether. Am I warm? 
> To Slapdash:
> :-)

BTW - didn't mean to suggest you hadn't posted g3 - my apologies if 
it read that way - but I did personally miss it - I enjoy your 
predictions - they provide a useful platform for discussion - all 
power to your water bowl...

 ... wonder how long a doubled pawn line will hold against a rook?

On Mon Aug 23 00:36:41, P.D. wrote:
> I suggest not to follow the sequence 32. g3 fxg3 
> 33. f2xg3 e5xg3. At this point GK would move the rook to f8, which 
> would lead to a double threat (pawn on h column ready to descent and 
> b/pawns on b column ready to be captured once we move the Knight). 
> Maybe my analisys is wrong somewhere (help me to find where...) but i 
> think our best move is 32. ... f3.

I agree with you ... at this late time of the night, having looked at 
the various options and arguments I have decided to go with ... f3 as 
my vote for the next move.  GO WORLD!

On Sun Aug 22 19:13:52, Plain English (Analysis) wrote:
> please consider that we have to kill the white pawns more than worry 
> about the rook.  f3 gives us to many pawn problems with white.  The 
> rook will come into play  what Nd4 does AFTER fxg is force the rook 
> away from f column.  Please look at this and see why f3 is not needed 
> and indeed negates the ACTIVE side of the Nd4 move which is to keep 
> after whites pawns while using the b4, etc. distraction to its 
> fullest resource.
> 
> here is the line I Think better than b4.
> 
> 32. g3   fxg
> 33. fxg  Nd4
> 
>   if 
>   34. h6  Ne2+   (Nd4 also ends h6 threat AFTER fxg)
>   if 
>   35. Kg2 Nxg3 
>    if 
>    36. Rf3  Nf5  and the dreaded Rf8 is blocked and we have the g and 
> f pawns of white off the board.
>    if 
>    36. Rb1 Ne4  and it transposes to Kf2 line below

     36. Rf8 & we are about to give up our bishop.  Haven't looked 
close, but...
>   
>   if
>   35. Kf2  Nxg3
>   36. Rb1  Ne4+
>   37. Ke3  Nxg5
>   38. Rxb5 Nf7    (and it looks like either Bishop and Knight on rook 
>  or Knight and two pawns on King. Black wins .   so Nd4 stops the h6 
> move pretty effectively
> 
>     
> most likely in Nd4 2 lines are
> A
> 34. Kf2  b4 
>   if
>   34. kf2  Nf5 
>   35. g4   Ng3  and bad for Black 
> 35. h6   Ne2
   Am I missing why 36. Ke2 doesn't win?
> 36. g4   B3
>   if 
>   37. h7  Bh8
>   38. Rf8 b2    (and obviously to late for white)
> 37. Rb1  b2
> 38. Bd2  Ng3
> 39. h7   Ne4   I see no way for White to get a queen before we clear 
> the rook and get our own or watch GK give up his rook or bishop to 
> stop our queening 
> 
> B
> 34. kf2  Nf5 
> 35. Rb1 
   Why chase after the pawn?  Better..
   35. h6
 Nxg3
> 36. Rxb5 Nxh5
     
> 37. Rxb2 Be6
> 
> we are down to Knight and and two pawns with centralized pawns  VS 
> rook and King seperated.  You can not promote a rook so this is draw 
> at worst and With all our talent I am sure we can figure out how to 
> promote one of our two remaining pawns.  I unfortunately have not had 
> the time to play this last part out yet.  I will work on this next 
> unless someone refutes this Nd4 line to me.
> 
>

I don't like the f pawn and the implications of Irina's 

g3 fxg fxg Bxg3 Rf8!

b4 will make Kasparov play g4 (this will make his last move a wasted 
tempo. since he could have played g4 here and saved time) 

World gains time with b4 now and g4 b3 Rb1 b2. Now the rook is semi 
pinned to the backrank. 

if Kasparov plays g4 b3 h6 Nd8 h7 Nf7 Kg2 Nh8 preparing the rook to 
come to the h file supporting the pawn our knight gains time with Nd8 
Nf7 Nh8.

I don't see us winning in the fxg fxg Bxg Rf8!! scenario because the 
rook is too active. 

b4 now is the best way to tie down Kasparov's rook to the backrank. 

b4 gxf?? (doubles f pawn and isolates h pawn looks good for black) 

32. g3? b4! 
33. g4 b3 34. Kg2 Nd4 35. h6 f3+ 36. Kh3 b2 37. h7 Kf7 38. Rb1 Ne6 
39. Bh4 Kg6 40. Bg3 Kxh7 41. Bxe5 dxe5 42. Rxb2

Very technical but winable game after b4.

On Mon Aug 23 01:45:05, chris wrote:
> I don't like the f pawn and the implications of Irina's 
> 
> g3 fxg fxg Bxg3 Rf8!
> 
> b4 will make Kasparov play g4 (this will make his last move a wasted 
> tempo. since he could have played g4 here and saved time) 
> 
> World gains time with b4 now and g4 b3 Rb1 b2. Now the rook is semi 
> pinned to the backrank. 
> 
> if Kasparov plays g4 b3 h6 Nd8 h7 Nf7 Kg2 Nh8 preparing the rook to 
> come to the h file supporting the pawn our knight gains time with Nd8 
> Nf7 Nh8.
> 
> I don't see us winning in the fxg fxg Bxg Rf8!! scenario because the 
> rook is too active. 
> 
> b4 now is the best way to tie down Kasparov's rook to the backrank. 
> 
> b4 gxf?? (doubles f pawn and isolates h pawn looks good for black) 
> 
> 32. g3? b4! 
> 33. g4 b3 34. Kg2 Nd4 35. h6 f3+ 36. Kh3 b2 37. h7 Kf7 38. Rb1 Ne6 
> 39. Bh4 Kg6 40. Bg3 Kxh7 41. Bxe5 dxe5 42. Rxb2
> 
> Very technical but winable game after b4. 
> 
> 

Nice analysis, but what if...

32.... b4?!
33. Bxf4!

(33... Bxf4? 34. gxf4 followed by 35. Kg2 and 36. Rh1 looks bad for 
black)

Andy

Smartchess at index6 wrote

> In the main line after 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2 b2 
 > 36.g4, we believe we have two interesting choices available:
 > 
 > A) 36...Na7!? 37.Ke3 Nb5 38.Bb4 Nc7 39.Kd3 Nd5 40.Ba3 Nf6 
41.Rg1 
 > b1Q+! 42.Rxb1 Nxg4 
 > 
 > B) 36...Nd4!? 37.Bc3 Nc6 38.Bxe5 Nxe5 39.Kg3 Nd3 40.Rb1 b5 
41.Kh4 Kf6 
 > 42.g5+ Kg7 43.Kg4 e6!

Just slightly curious why FAQ doesn't mention 35. Bf4 in this line -  
I presume it's duff for White - but I can't immediately grasp why? 


 32. g3 fxg3 33.
 fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 b3 35. Bf4

OK-  I'm voting now -- -which way should I go? 
 
 I like the position after f3 better, cuz It looks harder for GK to 
use his rook, but then, IK's analysis has been accurate so far..... 
it'd be blind faith for me to vote her way right now cuz I havent 
seen much yet on this move....
( at least not on this page)

.

Without having done deeper analysis, I seems to me that 35. Bf4 is a 
loss of tempo for white, Our Bishop must go to h8 at a time, some 
white spending a move in sending it down there doesnt seem right.,


On Mon Aug 23 01:57:22, DK wrote:
> Smartchess at index6 wrote
> 
> > In the main line after 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2 b2 
>  > 36.g4, we believe we have two interesting choices available:
>  > 
>  > A) 36...Na7!? 37.Ke3 Nb5 38.Bb4 Nc7 39.Kd3 Nd5 40.Ba3 Nf6 
> 41.Rg1 
>  > b1Q+! 42.Rxb1 Nxg4 
>  > 
>  > B) 36...Nd4!? 37.Bc3 Nc6 38.Bxe5 Nxe5 39.Kg3 Nd3 40.Rb1 b5 
> 41.Kh4 Kf6 
>  > 42.g5+ Kg7 43.Kg4 e6!
> 
> Just slightly curious why FAQ doesn't mention 35. Bf4 in this line -  
> I presume it's duff for White - but I can't immediately grasp why? 
> 
> 
>  32. g3 fxg3 33.
>  fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 b3 35. Bf4
>

I think I just spotted a line that I also see in the FAQ that seems 
to allow the bishop exchange - tell me this has been plugged please? 


32. g3 fxg3 
33. fxg3 b4 
34. Kf2 b3 
35. Bd2 b2 
36. g4 Nd4 
37. Bc3 Nc6 
38. Bxe5 Nxe5 etc

:(

DK

On Mon Aug 23 02:10:26, DK wrote:
> I think I just spotted a line that I also see in the FAQ that seems 
> to allow the bishop exchange - tell me this has been plugged please? 
> 
> 
> 32. g3 fxg3 
> 33. fxg3 b4 
> 34. Kf2 b3 
> 35. Bd2 b2 
> 36. g4 Nd4 
> 37. Bc3 Nc6 
> 38. Bxe5 Nxe5 etc
> 
> :(
> 
> DK

sorry if I'm being really REALLY thick here but as I posted a couple 
of days ago, I still have no problem so far with this line instead

31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 
32. g3 fxg3 
33. fxg3 b4 
34. Kf2 Kf5 
35. Bd2 Kg4 
36. h6 b3
37. h7 b2 =? 

where does it go to from here? 

DK

It was 87.95, but I just voted.

Generalmoe.

On Mon Aug 23 02:37:11, generalmoe wrote:
> It was 87.95, but I just voted.
> 
> Generalmoe.

really??

I'd be surprised if it got that much...

(I voted f3)

Andy

Why all this talk about the dubious 32. ... f3?

If we just play it straight, like for instance
32. ...  fxg3
33. fxg3 Bxg3
We win a pawn without any real harm to our well positioned pieces.
For example:
34. Rf1 Be8
And we still control the h8-square.
Even if might later in the game be forced to trade the Bishop for 
GK´s last remaining pawn, we still hold the balance:
4P(some well advnaced)+N vs. B+R will be hard for White I think.

Bye,
FlorianT

On Mon Aug 23 02:45:29, so what´s the problem? wrote:
> Why all this talk about the dubious 32. ... f3?
> 
> If we just play it straight, like for instance
> 32. ...  fxg3
> 33. fxg3 Bxg3
> We win a pawn without any real harm to our well positioned pieces.
> For example:
> 34. Rf1 Be8
> And we still control the h8-square.
> Even if might later in the game be forced to trade the Bishop for 
> GKs last remaining pawn, we still hold the balance:
> 4P(some well advnaced)+N vs. B+R will be hard for White I think.
> 
> Bye,
> FlorianT

All this talk about the "dubious" f3 because some of us don't 
like giving GK an open file for his rook.

Andy

P.S. I am anlysing what's going to happen after fxg3, because it's 
inevitable...

unfortunately the 35...Bh8 line seems to be
killed by that 44.Kf4! move as in the FAQ.  It looked like a nice 
idea from IM LS.

However, there is a big improvement in the ...Bg7 line.

after 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7
36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 39.Kf1 b3
40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Nd4 (crafty, transposes back
into FAQ) 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5,

instead of 43...Nxg5?? as in the FAQ which crafty sees loses quite
quickly (+0.20 at 18 ply), we have

43...e5!

and the position seems to be drawn (d5,e4,d4,e3
etc follow).  the main line is

44. Bc1 d5 (44.Be7 d5, or 44.Bf6 b5 45.Rh8 d5) 45. Bb2 (45.Ke2 Nd4+ 
46.Ke3 e4, or 45.Rh7 b5)
d4 46.Ke2 e4 47. Rh8 b5 48. Rc8+ Kd5 49. Rd8+ Ke5
50. Rxd4 Nxd4+ 51. Ke3 Kd5 52. Bxd4 b4
with a draw! (17 ply)  (we even have 38...b3 earlier on, which seems 
ok!)

BTW in the 32...fxg3 33.f4 line I have posted
multiple times about 33...Bd4+, which seems
to be even better than 33...Bh8, but noone
has added it to the FAQ.  I wonder what the
matter is?

Computer Chess Team:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

I still want to know (no-one has given a valid response) - why 34. 
Kf2??

Aside from that, 36... Nd4 looks wrong because it blocks off the 
bishop from defending the b-pawn and forces an exchange of bishops, 
which we don't want.

Andy

P.S. bad luck everyone who voted f3.... it's the better move.

On Mon Aug 23 06:58:30, endgame tablebases needed - IM2429 wrote:
> I dislike the idea behind this move, but on the other hand our 
> position is so bad that no line should be left unchecked.
> 
> I posted yesterday 32...fg 33.fg b4 34.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2 b2 36.g4 Nd4 
> 37.Bc3 Nc6 38.Bxe5 Nxe5 39.Kg3 Nd3 40.Rb1 b5 41.Kh4 Kf6 42.g5+ Kg7 
> 43.Kg4 e6 44.Kh4 b4 45.g6 Kh6 46.Rg1 Nc1 47.g7 b1=Q 48.g8=Q Qe4+ 
> 49.Qg4 Qxg4+ 50.Rxg4 b3 51.Rb4 51...Nd3 52.Rxb3 Nf4 53.Kg4 Nd5 54.Rf3 
> e5 55.Rf2 e4 56.Rd2 Nf6+ 57.Kf5 Ne8, and asked if someone could check 
> this with tablebases, noone answered so I analysed it myself, I think 
> 58.Rd1!! wins here, black will always be in zugzwang and white grabs 
> both the pawns and eventually wins. But its not done yet, I think 
> blacks play may be improved upon:
> 
> 55...Nf4 (instead 55...e4) 56.Rd2 ( other rook moves black answers 
> 56...Nd5 and white cant make progress I think ) 56...d5 57.Kf5 d4! ( 
> 57...Nxh5?? 58.Rh2 )
> After 57...d4 I cant and Crafty cant either find white anything 
> better than 58.Kxe5 Nxh5 59.Rxd4 and somewhat troublesome looking RvN 
> endgame, I'd bet its a draw, but someone with tablebases please 
> confirm this.
>

A couple of days ago and yesterday, I proposed these lines but never 
got a single comment or answer.

Are these lines so bad ?

33.fxg3 Bxg3
34.h6 Be5
35.h7 Bg7
36.Rf8 b4
37.h8Q Bxh8
38.Rxh8 Kd5
39.Kf2 e5
40.Rh1 b3
41.Ke2 b5
42.Kd3 b4
43.Bd2 Kc5
44.Rc1+ Kb5
45.Rb1 Na5
46.Bg5 Ka4
47.Bf6 Nc6
48.Kc4 Na5+
49.Kd5 Ka3
50.Ra1+ Kb2
51.Rxa5 Kc2
52.Kxd6 b2
53.Ra2 b3
54.Rxb2+ Kxb2
55.Bxe5+ Kb1 draw

Now for the 39.Kf1...40.Rh2 combo

33.fxg3 Bxg3
34.h6 Be5
35.h7 Bg7
36.Rf8 b4
37.h8Q Bxh8
38.Rxh8 Kd5
39.Kf1 b3
40.Rh2 Kc4
41.Ke1 Nd4
42.Kd1 Nf3
43.Rh5 e5
44.Bf6 b5
45.Rh8 Ne1 (Drawing move)
46.Rh4+ Kc5
47.Rh3 b2
48.Rb3 Nd3
49.Kc2 e4
50.Bxb2 b4
51.Rxd3 exd3+ (if 51.Bc1 Ne1+)
52.Kxd3 d5
53.Ke3 Kb5
54.Kd2 Kc5
55.Kc2 Kb5
56.Kd3 Kc5 draw

In other words nobody was influenced by you B.S.

On Mon Aug 23 13:09:09, Are these lines so bad ? wrote:
> A couple of days ago and yesterday, I proposed these lines but never 
> got a single comment or answer.

Since they had a problem with Kd5, it seemed logical to start there, 
and a tempo winning idea presents itself, 

both deserve to be fully tested, as there is no doubt our game will 
be much easier, if we can eat g3

> 
> Are these lines so bad ?
> 
> 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> 34.h6 Be5
> 35.h7 Bg7
> 36.Rf8 b4
> 37.h8Q Bxh8
> 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> 39.Kf2 e5
> 40.Rh1 b3
> 41.Ke2 b5
> 42.Kd3 b4
> 43.Bd2 Kc5
> 44.Rc1+ Kb5
> 45.Rb1 Na5
> 46.Bg5 Ka4
> 47.Bf6 Nc6
> 48.Kc4 Na5+
> 49.Kd5 Ka3
> 50.Ra1+ Kb2
> 51.Rxa5 Kc2
> 52.Kxd6 b2
> 53.Ra2 b3
> 54.Rxb2+ Kxb2
> 55.Bxe5+ Kb1 draw
> 
> Now for the 39.Kf1...40.Rh2 combo
> 
> 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> 34.h6 Be5
> 35.h7 Bg7
> 36.Rf8 b4
> 37.h8Q Bxh8
> 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> 39.Kf1 b3
> 40.Rh2 Kc4
> 41.Ke1 Nd4
> 42.Kd1 Nf3
> 43.Rh5 e5
> 44.Bf6 b5
> 45.Rh8 Ne1 (Drawing move)
> 46.Rh4+ Kc5
> 47.Rh3 b2
> 48.Rb3 Nd3
> 49.Kc2 e4
> 50.Bxb2 b4
> 51.Rxd3 exd3+ (if 51.Bc1 Ne1+)
> 52.Kxd3 d5
> 53.Ke3 Kb5
> 54.Kd2 Kc5
> 55.Kc2 Kb5
> 56.Kd3 Kc5 draw

I was sent an e-mail by a strong player I know (we will leave him as 
anonymous as it was a private e-mail).

Consider the following position:

White: Rook on b7, Bishop on a7, King on d1 (to move).

Black: Knight on f3, King on d3, pawns on b3, d4 and e3.

White plays 1.Rxb3+ Ke4 2.Rb8 Kd3 3.Re8 Ng1 (beginning a knight 
shuttle to and from g1 and f3) 4.Ke1 Nf3+ 5.Kf1 Nd2+ 6.Kg2 Nb3 7.Rh8

(7.Kf3 - king going behind pawns - 7...Nd2+ 8.Kf4 e2 9.Bxd4 Kxd4 
10.Rxe2 - draw)

7...Kd2 8.Rh1 d3 9.Kf3 e2 10.Be3+ Kc2 11.Rg1 d2 12.Kxe2 Nc1+ 13.Kf3 
d1Q+ 14.Rxd1 Kxd1 - draw.

Does this piece-pawn configuration offer drawing chances? Can this 
piece-pawn configuration be reached?

After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 
Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 39.Kf1 b3 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Ne5 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5 e5 
44.Bc1, we reach a position that is the FAQ. 

Now let's exercise "a little fantasy" and "help" 
White reach the desired piece-pawn configuration:

44...Kd3!? 45.Rh7 d5 46.Rxb7 Kc3 47.Bh6 e4 48.Rc7+ Kd3 49.Rb7 Kc3 
50.Bg7+ d4 51.Rc7+ Kd3 52.Rb7 Kc3 53.Bf6 e3 54.Be7 Kd3 55.Rxb3+ Ke4 
56.Bc5 Ng1 57.Rb4 Nf3 - voila! Of course this is not forced - nor is 
it even likely to be correct, but it does provide fuel for thought.

Ron

Wouldn't the likely reply to 33.....Bxg3 be 34.Bf4 with a lot more 
problems for black? We would probably lose control over the main 
diagonal!


On Mon Aug 23 13:34:30, BMcC I saw, but still on 38...Kf5/Kd5 wrote:
> On Mon Aug 23 13:09:09, Are these lines so bad ? wrote:
> > A couple of days ago and yesterday, I proposed these lines but never 
> > got a single comment or answer.
> 
> Since they had a problem with Kd5, it seemed logical to start there, 
> and a tempo winning idea presents itself, 
> 
> both deserve to be fully tested, as there is no doubt our game will 
> be much easier, if we can eat g3
> 
> > 
> > Are these lines so bad ?
> > 
> > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > 34.h6 Be5
> > 35.h7 Bg7
> > 36.Rf8 b4
> > 37.h8Q Bxh8
> > 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> > 39.Kf2 e5
> > 40.Rh1 b3
> > 41.Ke2 b5
> > 42.Kd3 b4
> > 43.Bd2 Kc5
> > 44.Rc1+ Kb5
> > 45.Rb1 Na5
> > 46.Bg5 Ka4
> > 47.Bf6 Nc6
> > 48.Kc4 Na5+
> > 49.Kd5 Ka3
> > 50.Ra1+ Kb2
> > 51.Rxa5 Kc2
> > 52.Kxd6 b2
> > 53.Ra2 b3
> > 54.Rxb2+ Kxb2
> > 55.Bxe5+ Kb1 draw
> > 
> > Now for the 39.Kf1...40.Rh2 combo
> > 
> > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > 34.h6 Be5
> > 35.h7 Bg7
> > 36.Rf8 b4
> > 37.h8Q Bxh8
> > 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> > 39.Kf1 b3
> > 40.Rh2 Kc4
> > 41.Ke1 Nd4
> > 42.Kd1 Nf3
> > 43.Rh5 e5
> > 44.Bf6 b5
> > 45.Rh8 Ne1 (Drawing move)
> > 46.Rh4+ Kc5
> > 47.Rh3 b2
> > 48.Rb3 Nd3
> > 49.Kc2 e4
> > 50.Bxb2 b4
> > 51.Rxd3 exd3+ (if 51.Bc1 Ne1+)
> > 52.Kxd3 d5
> > 53.Ke3 Kb5
> > 54.Kd2 Kc5
> > 55.Kc2 Kb5
> > 56.Kd3 Kc5 draw

.
On Mon Aug 23 13:34:30, BMcC I saw, but still on 38...Kf5/Kd5 wrote:
> On Mon Aug 23 13:09:09, Are these lines so bad ? wrote:
> > A couple of days ago and yesterday, I proposed these lines but never 
> > got a single comment or answer.
> 
> Since they had a problem with Kd5, it seemed logical to start there, 
> and a tempo winning idea presents itself, 
> 
> both deserve to be fully tested, as there is no doubt our game will 
> be much easier, if we can eat g3
> 
> > 
> > Are these lines so bad ?
> > 
> > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > 34.h6 Be5
> > 35.h7 Bg7
> > 36.Rf8 b4
> > 37.h8Q Bxh8
> > 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> > 39.Kf2 e5
> > 40.Rh1 b3
> > 41.Ke2 b5
> > 42.Kd3 b4
> > 43.Bd2 Kc5
> > 44.Rc1+ Kb5
> > 45.Rb1 Na5
> > 46.Bg5 Ka4
> > 47.Bf6 Nc6
> > 48.Kc4 Na5+
> > 49.Kd5 Ka3
> > 50.Ra1+ Kb2
> > 51.Rxa5 Kc2
> > 52.Kxd6 b2
> > 53.Ra2 b3
> > 54.Rxb2+ Kxb2
> > 55.Bxe5+ Kb1 draw
> > 
> > Now for the 39.Kf1...40.Rh2 combo
> > 
> > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > 34.h6 Be5
> > 35.h7 Bg7
> > 36.Rf8 b4
> > 37.h8Q Bxh8
> > 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> > 39.Kf1 b3
> > 40.Rh2 Kc4
> > 41.Ke1 Nd4
> > 42.Kd1 Nf3
> > 43.Rh5 e5
> > 44.Bf6 b5
> > 45.Rh8 Ne1 (Drawing move)
> > 46.Rh4+ Kc5
> > 47.Rh3 b2
> > 48.Rb3 Nd3
> > 49.Kc2 e4
> > 50.Bxb2 b4
> > 51.Rxd3 exd3+ (if 51.Bc1 Ne1+)
> > 52.Kxd3 d5
> > 53.Ke3 Kb5
> > 54.Kd2 Kc5
> > 55.Kc2 Kb5
> > 56.Kd3 Kc5 draw

33...Bxg3
34.Bf4 Bh4
35.h6 Bf6
36.h7 b4
37.Bc1 Bg7
38.Rf8

seems to transpose into some kind of Bg7 Bc1 line.

I'd feel confident for black in this line but as of now cannot 
substantiate this statement with concrete analysis.


On Mon Aug 23 13:49:11, chessnut wrote:
> Wouldn't the likely reply to 33.....Bxg3 be 34.Bf4 with a lot more 
> problems for black? We would probably lose control over the main 
> diagonal!
> 
> 
> On Mon Aug 23 13:34:30, BMcC I saw, but still on 38...Kf5/Kd5 wrote:
> > On Mon Aug 23 13:09:09, Are these lines so bad ? wrote:
> > > A couple of days ago and yesterday, I proposed these lines but never 
> > > got a single comment or answer.
> > 
> > Since they had a problem with Kd5, it seemed logical to start there, 
> > and a tempo winning idea presents itself, 
> > 
> > both deserve to be fully tested, as there is no doubt our game will 
> > be much easier, if we can eat g3
> > 
> > > 
> > > Are these lines so bad ?
> > > 
> > > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > > 34.h6 Be5
> > > 35.h7 Bg7
> > > 36.Rf8 b4
> > > 37.h8Q Bxh8
> > > 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> > > 39.Kf2 e5
> > > 40.Rh1 b3
> > > 41.Ke2 b5
> > > 42.Kd3 b4
> > > 43.Bd2 Kc5
> > > 44.Rc1+ Kb5
> > > 45.Rb1 Na5
> > > 46.Bg5 Ka4
> > > 47.Bf6 Nc6
> > > 48.Kc4 Na5+
> > > 49.Kd5 Ka3
> > > 50.Ra1+ Kb2
> > > 51.Rxa5 Kc2
> > > 52.Kxd6 b2
> > > 53.Ra2 b3
> > > 54.Rxb2+ Kxb2
> > > 55.Bxe5+ Kb1 draw
> > > 
> > > Now for the 39.Kf1...40.Rh2 combo
> > > 
> > > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > > 34.h6 Be5
> > > 35.h7 Bg7
> > > 36.Rf8 b4
> > > 37.h8Q Bxh8
> > > 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> > > 39.Kf1 b3
> > > 40.Rh2 Kc4
> > > 41.Ke1 Nd4
> > > 42.Kd1 Nf3
> > > 43.Rh5 e5
> > > 44.Bf6 b5
> > > 45.Rh8 Ne1 (Drawing move)
> > > 46.Rh4+ Kc5
> > > 47.Rh3 b2
> > > 48.Rb3 Nd3
> > > 49.Kc2 e4
> > > 50.Bxb2 b4
> > > 51.Rxd3 exd3+ (if 51.Bc1 Ne1+)
> > > 52.Kxd3 d5
> > > 53.Ke3 Kb5
> > > 54.Kd2 Kc5
> > > 55.Kc2 Kb5
> > > 56.Kd3 Kc5 draw

This is indeed a very good question. I think the best answer may be 
as follows: GK is now playing a complex system of real people 
(ranging from GMs to 'Jones in the street') and their computers. This 
is unlike anything he has played before, as this system will behave 
differently than any computer or any single person on earth would. It 
is possible to imagine that it could indeed outperform all its 
component parts. If this is indeed the case is very hard, if not 
impossible, to determine up front.

The crucial point, however, is this: As we would leave the arena to 
"the GMs and the analysts" as you say, the play of our 
"system" would more and more resemble the play of GK's 
traditional (inferior) opponents. Therefore, we might be better off 
if all of us continue to combine our computers, the analysts' advice 
and our own feeble chess playing skills to match GK.

Petter Karal

On Mon Aug 23 13:45:21, Mike wrote:
> I mean, Kaspy was able to beat Deeper Blue which calculated at the 
> rate of 200,000,000 positions per second.  Is all this analysis going 
> to get us somewhere or are the GM's and the analysts our only hope?

OK.  I had to get this in some where.  This is a message to all on 
the world team to be very careful.  I have been studying this game 
for weeks now.  And, to me it looks like Gary is going to do it 
again.  He has lulled the world to sleep just waiting to strike and 
the time in nigh.  He will take the pawn, daring the world to place 
him in check.  He will simply move to the safety of an odd colored 
square, probably g2 then to g1 later if necessary, but before that 
look for him to go to a nasty possible check of the King freezing the 
bishop.  The pawn on h will just saunter right on home and be born 
into a queen with that bishop pointing right at it and won't be able 
to a thing about it.  Then look for a ton of checks and eventual mate 
or Gary just might get a hair up his a$$ and go for the complete wipe 
out.  Be careful.  Be very very careful.




On Mon Aug 23 14:05:05, the secret IRINA-World 

N.Soldier E-MAILS  wrote:
> 
> I'm World Soldier's Uncle.Ron Henley,you did not pologize so here 
> comes the secret E-Mails between Irina KRUSH and World NOSTRADAMUS 
> Soldier, so everybody knows who is really Irina KRUSH.
> 
> E-MAIL N
1.-WORLD SOLDIER to IRINA KRUSH
> 
> Miss IRINA KRUSH:
> 
> Ron henley is the son of one of my pupils that I had 50 years ago in 
> Nepal,and he told me that you are going to be one of the analysts of 
> a match between Kasparov and the World, and he also told me you are a 
> genius but you are only 15 years old.So he asked me if I can use my 
> prediction power to help you.-
> I was a very strong chess player 70 years ago.Now I'm 94 years old.
> Ron gave me your personal E-Mail and he asked if I can predict the 
> first Garry's ten moves of the match, so I used my brain in all it's 
> power and  here they come:
> 1.e4,2.Nf3,3.Bb5+,4.Bxd7+,5.c4,6.Nc3,7.0-0,8.d4,9.Nxd4,10.Nde2.-
> I suggest you should play 10...Qe6, but don't give my name to this 
> move.Just say this variation is your idea.
>  I want not to be recognized, so I will use the name "World 
> Soldier".-
> I have a new feeling right now: one of the analysts (BARCOT or 
> something), will use the word "forced" many times(maybe the 
> force is with him).-
> I will use the chat to comunicate the other Garry's moves and I will 
> add to my name "NOSTRADAMUS", but only when predicting, so 
> you can recognize the real predictions.-
> World Soldier
> 
> 
> 
> FIRST E-MAIL from Irina Krush to World Soldier:
> 
> Mr.World NOSTRADAMUS Soldier:
> 
> Ron told me that you are a real and fantastic predictor,and I am very 
> glad to be helped by you.I thank you a lot for the E-Mail you sended 
> me with Garry's ten first moves and a fantastic variation for the 
> World's 10
 move.-I just would appreciate if the next time you send 
> me your post before Garry plays his  first ten moves, and not after, 
> because we are already in the 20
 move.-
> Ron's father told me that when you were young you invented to choose 
> a Queen when a pawn gets to the last line,instead of the current move 
> at that time that was to choose another pawn.From that time up to now 
> everybody is using your variation.
> I will keep an eye on the chat to see your next predictions.
> Love and admiration,
> Irina KRUSH.- 
> 
>

It has been pointed out that the position after 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 
Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35. h7 Bg7 36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. 
Kf1 b3 40. Rh2 Kc4 41. Ke1 Ne5 42. Kd1 Nf3 43. Rh5 is not necessarily 
lost for black (if black doesn't play 43. ... Nxg5).

The Computer Chess team proposes 43. ... e5 "with the idea of 
advancing the d- and e-pawns".

I think the opportunity to push these pawns is present earlier in 
this variation. I tried 

41. ... d5!?

The following is not a thorough analysis but it should illustrate the 
idea.

42. Kd1 e5
  a) 43. Kc1 Nb4
  b) 43. Bc1 d4 44. Ke2 (44. Rh7 b5 45. Rc7 Kd5) 44. ... e4 45. 
Rh4(?) Kc3 =
  c) 43. Rh7 b5 44. Rc7 Kc5 45. Kc1 d4 46. Kb2 Kd5 47. Kxb3 e4
    1) 48. Rc8 e3 49. Re8 Ne5 50. Kb4 e2 51. Bd2 d3 52. Kxb5 Nf3 =
    2) 48. Kc2 Ne5 49. Rc8 e3 50. Re8 d3+ 51. Kc3 b4+ 52. Kxb4 d2 53. 
Rd8+ Ke4 54. Kc3 Nf3 =
    3) 48. Rf7 e3 49. Rf5+ Ke4 50. Rxb5 d3 51. Kc3 d2 52. Rb1 Nd4 53. 
Rh1 Nf3 54. Bh4 d1=Q =

HIARCS 7.32's main line:

32...fxg3     +.23  15/31
32.fxg3
33...b4!     =0.12  15/31   Posted Friday
34.Kf2       =0.23  15/31   Posted Saturday
34...b3      =0.00  15/31
line:
35.Bd2 Kd5
36.g4 Ke4
37.g5 Kd3
38.Be3 b2
39.h6

Alternative moves:

33...Bxg3     +.40  15/31
34.h6 Be5
35.h7
35...Bg7      +.48  15/31
36.Rf8
36...b4       +.55  14/30
37.Kf2 b3
38.h8Q Bxh8
39.Rxh8 Kd5


34.g4        =0.10  15/31
line:
34...b3
35.Bf4 Bd4+
36.Kg2 Nb4
37.g5 b2
38.g6 Nd3

34...Kf5      +.30  15/30
line:
35.Bf4 Bc3
36.Ke2 Kg4
37.h6 b3

> 32...fxg3     +.23  15/31
> 32.fxg3
> 33...b4!     =0.12  15/31   Posted Friday
> 34.Kf2       =0.23  15/31   Posted Saturday
> 34...b3      =0.00  15/31
> line:
> 35.Bd2 Kd5
> 36.g4 Ke4
> 37.g5 Kd3
> 38.Be3 b2
> 39.h6

Do you have any score after 39.h6???

I have been looking to see if I can accelerate the Ke6-d5 plan in the 
34.Kf2 line, applying some of the ideas I had to combat 34.Ke2. So 
far...

33...b4 34.Kf2 

(34.g4 b3 35.Kf2 Na5 -> GM School, but 35.Bd2 has not been 
addressed - need help here!)

34...b3 35.Bd2 Kd5 36.g4 

(36.Ke3 and 36.Kf3 are other stories - need help!) 

36...Ke4 37.g5 Kd3, and now: 

A) 38.h6 Kxd2 39.g6 e6 40.g7 (40.h7 b2-+) 40...Ne7-+; 

B) 38.g6 Kxd2 39.h6 -> 38.h6 Kxd2 39.g6; 

C) 38.Be3 e6! 

(38...b2? 39.g6 e6 40.Bg5 Kc2 41.h6 b1Q 42.Rxb1 Kxb1 43.g7+-) 

39.g6 Ne7 40.Bg5 Nf5 41.Rd1+ 

(41.h6? b2 42.Kg2 Kc2 43.Rf2+ Kb3 44.Rf1 Ka2 45.Rf2 Ka1-+) 

41...Kc2 42.Rc1+ Kd3 43.Rd1+ Kc2=; 

D) 38.Bc1 (giving up the bishop for the b-pawn instead of a rook) 
38...b2 39.Bxb2 Bxb2, and at the moment I am analyzing the 
continuations 

40.g6, 40.h6, and 40.Rb1. Help requested!!

Please also check the above analysis.

Ron

NT

just wondering:)

On Mon Aug 23 16:40:08, steni .. wrote:

> > > D) 38.Bc1 (giving up the bishop for the b-pawn instead of a rook) 
> > > 38...b2 

> > In the last variation try e6 instead of 40.g6 etc.
> > 
> > steni
> 
> sorry I mean e6 instead of b2..
> 
> steni

Of course!

AFTER 33...P-B4  Why not 34. B-f4  it seems to be a very strong 
consolidating move for white and lacking a forced win, I would play 
it in a heartbeat.



sorry for the lack of 25 move deep analysis, but in the plain english 
tradition 34. B-f4 does 2 important things. It unblocks the g pawn 
and 34.....B-d5+ is certainly no hardship for white.



p.s.   those passers move very fast

nt

Your lines A, B and C look fine. In line C: 38...b2 39.g6 Nd8 40.h6 
Ne6 is also a draw (verified by IM2429) so we
have two draws to choose from there.
 
The trouble line, first pointed out by IM2429, is 36.Ke3 Bxg3 (seems 
best) 37.Kd3 Ne5+ (I tried Nd8, b2, e5,  Be5 here without any luck) 
38.Kc3 Ke4 (Nc4? 39.Bf4 Bxf4 40.Rxf4) 39.h6 Nf3 40.Bc1 Be5+ 41.Kxb3 
(IM2429 got to here) d5 42.Bb2 d4 43.Rc1 Ng5 44.Rh1 e6 45.h7 Bh8 
46.Rh4+ Kf5 47.Bc1 Nf7 which looks drawn. Obviously this needs a lot 
of checking.
 


On Mon Aug 23 16:47:42, GM Ron Henley wrote:
> On Mon Aug 23 16:40:08, steni .. wrote:
> 
> > > > D) 38.Bc1 (giving up the bishop for the b-pawn instead of a rook) 
> > > > 38...b2 
> 
> > > In the last variation try e6 instead of 40.g6 etc.
> > > 
> > > steni
> > 
> > sorry I mean e6 instead of b2..
> > 
> > steni
> 
> Of course!

On Mon Aug 23 13:34:35, GM Ron Henley wrote:

> After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 
> Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 39.Kf1 b3 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Ne5 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5 e5 

thanks for looking.  that position is definitely
a draw.  19 ply analysis:

44.Bc1 d5 45.Bb2 d4 46.Ke2 e4 47.Rh8 b5 48.Rc8+ Kd5 49.Rd8+ Kc4;

44.Bc1 d5 45.Rh7 b5;

44.Bc1 d5 45.Ke2 e4;

44.Bf6 b5 45.Rh8 Ne1!! 46.Rh4+ Kc5 47.Kc1 Nd3+ 48.Kd2 b2;

44.Be7 d5 45.Bf6 b2 46.Kc2 e4 47.Bxb2 d4 48.Rh7 d3+
49.Kd1 b5 50.Bc1 Nd4.

(I see pk suggested 41...d5 but I like 41...Nd4
better as it threatens Nf3+)

so I looked for earlier improvements for white.

there is only 36.Bh6, the rest of it you have
seen (crafty liked 39.Kf2/Kf1 b3 40.Bc1 more than
this line).  So unless white can improve on
move 40, this Bxg3 variation is fine.

Brian Mccarthy - see the computer gang bbs
for ...Kf5 results

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

Ok, so not only have the CC Team defined what they see as the 
difference between my Zarkov run line and the crafty table base 
version, They have a pretty convincing line against the FAQ Kf1.


So nothing has changed in the standings, and I , like the CC team 
seem to feel Bf4 is the real worry. I have seen no Bd4+ position that 
equals the Kd5 defense of Bxg3. I only wanted to examine Kf5 to show 
the line has possibilities besides Kd5, if we had a line scoring +34 
10 days ago, we'd be high fiving all over the place!

    If g3 is poisoned must be considered, because fear and chess 
don't go well together. The worst that can possible happen is that 
Garri can queen his h pawn, We have a line that does that and we 
don't lose. All you hope chessers out there still have no 
clarification as to will Garri queen, if he does we lose in b4, here 
we can laugh all the way to the bank, no more moves to think about 
and game over one way or the other.

If you think b4 is better come up with a line that convinces Crafty 
or any computer, otherwise show me analysis to a clear draw. Failing 
any of that, try to show why Bxg3 is bad. 

    Connected pass pawns are worth a rook, our bishop has said he 
will take care of them both, and leave us with 4 pawns and a knight 
who guards each and every last one of them!!!!!!

    I am the one who activated this piece, I feel I am in the best 
position to say what the best role is.
The Computer chess team has every right to claim that they had the 
idea to activate this bishop before anyone, as it was their 2% 
recommendation a move earlier than we played Be5(McCarthy).
We are the King's bishop camp in this game, lobbying for its unique 
role has been both our major contributons. We bluffed Garri with e6, 
it has ourname on it too. 

We have a few hours, lets talk facts, not poisons, I'm a pathology 
PhD candidate, I think I have the corner on poisons.

First off let me reiterate that I am looking at Nd4 as way to bolster 
the b4 line.  White has ways to make sure Knight does not havoc his 
pawns and GK will certainly play best moves.  So this is not to 
promote any new line but I just want to explore 33. .. Nd4 as much as 
I can before tomorrow nights vote.  So I am thinking Nd4 has ways to 
push the rook off the f column and make it harder for GK to 
centralize his King.  two problems with the b4 line, I think. 

I was drawn to Nd4 because it forces a king move over any other for 
White because of Ne2+ possibility otherwise.  The replies I got to my 
posts of this afternoon - Thanks all (Nd4 is not all mine by any 
stretch) - all agreed on this and that whites strongest move was Kg2. 
 this is good news because the idea of forcing the king move was to 
make White loose a little tempo by disallowing Kf2 as that move. 

so now the smart guy Analysts ravaged the line with
 
33. fxg   Nd4 
34. Kg2   b4 
35. Bf4!  Bh8 (Bg7? h6!)  (Pete Rihaczek) 
  36. Rb1   Nc6             (Pete Rihaczek) 
here I disagree with Peter and say 
36. Rb1   b3           (Plain English reasons below)  
37. Be3  was reply by Russ Jones see below and white wins

PS Peter Rihaczek line B I agree with totally,  if White moves his 
king then Ne2 is losing move for sure


so now I try a last attempt at salvation, Beleive me all else fails 
on the 33. fxg  Nd4 line
B)
33. fxg   Nd4
34. Kg2   b4
35. Bf4!  Bh8   (this Bf4 is really a killer move)
36. Rb1   b3
37. Be3   Nc2
38. Rxb3  Ne3+
39. Rxe3+ Kf7

not saying this is great but I place it on the altar as well, in the 
hopes that someone might make something good out of it.  I definitely 
have come to appreciate the Bf4 move now.  HiHo.  




On Mon Aug 23 11:19:16, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
>> As always the most time-saving thing to do is try 
>> to find the strongest line for white and see if we 
>> can refute it. I have my  doubts about the following:
 
>> 33...Nd4!? 34. Kg2! and now I've tried 34...b4 and 
>> Ne2 with little success:
>> 
>> A) 33...Nd4 34. Kg2 b4 35. Bf4! Bh8 (Bg7? h6!) 
>> 36. Rb1 Nc6   

>Instead of Nc6 here I think 36. ..  b3 is more in >line with 
Nd4 thinking in that it keeps the rook tied >up on the b column 
while we take care of whites >kingside pawns.  cost is that 
knight is locked on >protecting pawn and the pawn will be hard to 
move for >awhile but the gain is the rook is off the f column. 
>I am at work so I can not sit down and run out the >line 
from here.  


>>(Nc2 similar) 37. Bd2 Bc3 38. Bxc3 bxc3 39. Rc1+-
 
>> B) 33...Nd4 34. Kg2 Ne2 35. h6 Nxg3 36. Bf4 Nf5 ( 
>> Nxf1? 37. Bxe5 Ne3+  38. Kg1 Kxe5 39. h7+-) 37. 
>>Bxe5 Nxh7 and I don't believe black can hold this 
>>endgame. 

Russ Joones also replied this afternoon with

Hi Andy,Seems to me we've got a serious problem after  33...Nd4 34. 
Kg2 b4 35. Bf4 Bh8 36. Rb1 b3 37. Be3. White's looking to trade his 
bishop for our knight, dooming both our b-pawns in the process. There 
doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it. E.g., 37. ... Nf5 38. 
Rxb3, or 37. ... b2 38. Rxb2 Nf5 39. Rb3. Is it possible to draw the 
resulting R+2P v. B+2P ending? Maybe, but I kinda doubt it. In any 
event, it'd be a grim, ugly chore. Regards, RJ

33.gf3 b4 34.Kf2 Kf7!? [Sorry if I'm redundant in this concept]
A.
35.Bd2 b5!? 36.g4 Kg7 37.Rb1 Bc3!? if 38.Be3 d5 39.g5 d4 40.Bc1 Ne5 
41.Kg3 Nc4 = (at least);

B.
35.Ke3+ Kg7 36.Bf4 ("popular" move) Bc3 37.Ke4 (otherwise d5) 
b3 e.g. 38.Kd5 b2 39.Kc4 Bf6 40.g4 Ne5+ if 41.Be5: Be5: 42.Kb3 (g5? 
Bf4!) Kh6 =/+;

D.M.

We should  be deciding on 34:...Bh8 Or 34:...Bc3!!! after GK sure  
move of 33:Pf4    that is all!!

just a rookie but you guys only see GK taking the g3 pawn!!

I;m a rookie and i can see trouble for white with a g3 capture!!

Go ahead prove me wrong!!!

> 44.Bc1 d5 45.Ke2 e4;

I should really cover myself in this line
by pointing out 45...Nd4+ too...

btw still no sign of 33.f4 Bd4+ 34.Kg2 b4 35.Kxg3 b3
in the FAQ... oh well...

You should pay attention to this move!!!

Am I now observing that the world players (Joke! Should be: observing 
that Irina Krush) are suddenly in a dilemma, and do not know how to 
solve Black's problems in this position. I find this to be extremely 
hilarious. The world was warned that Black's last chance for a draw 
was 29...Qe2! But, of course, no one listened, or even gave any 
thought to the analysis that we grandmasters submitted.

The world deserves everything that now lies ahead, for allowing this 
game to become a match between Kasparov vs. Krush. Fiasco! We shout! 
And we will continue to voice this opinion (which is shared by many 
others) until this staged farce is finally over!

Anonymous

I gave up on this just minutes earlier.

On Mon Aug 23 17:32:35, Plain English     wrote:
> First off let me reiterate that I am looking at Nd4 as way to bolster 
> the b4 line.  White has ways to make sure Knight does not havoc his 
> pawns and GK will certainly play best moves.  So this is not to 
> promote any new line but I just want to explore 33. .. Nd4 as much as 
> I can before tomorrow nights vote.  So I am thinking Nd4 has ways to 
> push the rook off the f column and make it harder for GK to 
> centralize his King.  two problems with the b4 line, I think. 
> 
> I was drawn to Nd4 because it forces a king move over any other for 
> White because of Ne2+ possibility otherwise.  The replies I got to my 
> posts of this afternoon - Thanks all (Nd4 is not all mine by any 
> stretch) - all agreed on this and that whites strongest move was Kg2. 
>  this is good news because the idea of forcing the king move was to 
> make White loose a little tempo by disallowing Kf2 as that move. 
> 
> so now the smart guy Analysts ravaged the line with
>  
> 33. fxg   Nd4 
> 34. Kg2   b4 
> 35. Bf4!  Bh8 (Bg7? h6!)  (Pete Rihaczek) 
>   36. Rb1   Nc6             (Pete Rihaczek) 
> here I disagree with Peter and say 
> 36. Rb1   b3           (Plain English reasons below)  
> 37. Be3  was reply by Russ Jones see below and white wins
> 
> PS Peter Rihaczek line B I agree with totally,  if White moves his 
> king then Ne2 is losing move for sure
> 
> 
> so now I try a last attempt at salvation, Beleive me all else fails 
> on the 33. fxg  Nd4 line
> B)
> 33. fxg   Nd4
> 34. Kg2   b4
> 35. Bf4!  Bh8   (this Bf4 is really a killer move)
> 36. Rb1   b3
> 37. Be3   Nc2
> 38. Rxb3  Ne3+
> 39. Rxe3+ Kf7
> 
> not saying this is great but I place it on the altar as well, in the 
> hopes that someone might make something good out of it.  I definitely 
> have come to appreciate the Bf4 move now.  HiHo.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon Aug 23 11:19:16, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
> >> As always the most time-saving thing to do is try 
> >> to find the strongest line for white and see if we 
> >> can refute it. I have my  doubts about the following:
>  
> >> 33...Nd4!? 34. Kg2! and now I've tried 34...b4 and 
> >> Ne2 with little success:
> >> 
> >> A) 33...Nd4 34. Kg2 b4 35. Bf4! Bh8 (Bg7? h6!) 
> >> 36. Rb1 Nc6   
> 
> >Instead of Nc6 here I think 36. ..  b3 is more in >line with 
> Nd4 thinking in that it keeps the rook tied >up on the b column 
> while we take care of whites >kingside pawns.  cost is that 
> knight is locked on >protecting pawn and the pawn will be hard to 
> move for >awhile but the gain is the rook is off the f column. 
> >I am at work so I can not sit down and run out the >line 
> from here.  
> 
> 
> >>(Nc2 similar) 37. Bd2 Bc3 38. Bxc3 bxc3 39. Rc1+-
>  
> >> B) 33...Nd4 34. Kg2 Ne2 35. h6 Nxg3 36. Bf4 Nf5 ( 
> >> Nxf1? 37. Bxe5 Ne3+  38. Kg1 Kxe5 39. h7+-) 37. 
> >>Bxe5 Nxh7 and I don't believe black can hold this 
> >>endgame. 
> 
> Russ Joones also replied this afternoon with
> 
> Hi Andy,Seems to me we've got a serious problem after  33...Nd4 34. 
> Kg2 b4 35. Bf4 Bh8 36. Rb1 b3 37. Be3. White's looking to trade his 
> bishop for our knight, dooming both our b-pawns in the process. There 
> doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it. E.g., 37. ... Nf5 38. 
> Rxb3, or 37. ... b2 38. Rxb2 Nf5 39. Rb3. Is it possible to draw the 
> resulting R+2P v. B+2P ending? Maybe, but I kinda doubt it. In any 
> event, it'd be a grim, ugly chore. Regards, RJ

On Mon Aug 23 17:28:56, BMcC ok, great Kf5 is  34 in 384 mbyte hash 
wrote:
> Ok, so not only have the CC Team defined what they see as the 
> difference between my Zarkov run line and the crafty table base 
> version, They have a pretty convincing line against the FAQ Kf1.
> 
> 
> So nothing has changed in the standings, and I , like the CC team 
> seem to feel Bf4 is the real worry. I have seen no Bd4+ position that 
> equals the Kd5 defense of Bxg3. I only wanted to examine Kf5 to show 
> the line has possibilities besides Kd5, if we had a line scoring +34 
> 10 days ago, we'd be high fiving all over the place!
> 
>     If g3 is poisoned must be considered, because fear and chess 
> don't go well together. The worst that can possible happen is that 
> Garri can queen his h pawn, We have a line that does that and we 
> don't lose. All you hope chessers out there still have no 
> clarification as to will Garri queen, if he does we lose in b4, here 
> we can laugh all the way to the bank, no more moves to think about 
> and game over one way or the other.
> 
> If you think b4 is better come up with a line that convinces Crafty 
> or any computer, otherwise show me analysis to a clear draw. Failing 
> any of that, try to show why Bxg3 is bad. 
> 
>     Connected pass pawns are worth a rook, our bishop has said he 
> will take care of them both, and leave us with 4 pawns and a knight 
> who guards each and every last one of them!!!!!!
> 
>     I am the one who activated this piece, I feel I am in the best 
> position to say what the best role is.
> The Computer chess team has every right to claim that they had the 
> idea to activate this bishop before anyone, as it was their 2% 
> recommendation a move earlier than we played Be5(McCarthy).
> We are the King's bishop camp in this game, lobbying for its unique 
> role has been both our major contributons. We bluffed Garri with e6, 
> it has ourname on it too. 
> 
> We have a few hours, lets talk facts, not poisons, I'm a pathology 
> PhD candidate, I think I have the corner on poisons.
>  
> 
Is time You post line again?
I³ve comments about some possibility having end of 4 pawns vs Rook . 
I don't know about this. Is it possible?

That is where I wanted 15: ....Pe6!!!!

That is where we blew it I think!!!

On Mon Aug 23 13:49:11, chessnut wrote:
> Wouldn't the likely reply to 33.....Bxg3 be 34.Bf4 with a lot more 
> problems for black? We would probably lose control over the main 
> diagonal!

that is handled in the FAQ...

> > > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > > 34.h6 Be5
> > > 35.h7 Bg7
> > > 36.Rf8 b4
> > > 37.h8Q Bxh8
> > > 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> > > 39.Kf2 e5

haven't looked at that... my attention was
on 39...b3, which even the hostile-to-Bxg3 FAQ ( :-) )
says draws.

> > > 40.Rh1 b3
> > > 41.Ke2 b5
> > > 42.Kd3 b4
> > > 43.Bd2 Kc5
> > > 44.Rc1+ Kb5
> > > 45.Rb1 Na5
> > > 46.Bg5 Ka4
> > > 47.Bf6 Nc6
> > > 48.Kc4 Na5+
> > > 49.Kd5 Ka3
> > > 50.Ra1+ Kb2
> > > 51.Rxa5 Kc2
> > > 52.Kxd6 b2
> > > 53.Ra2 b3
> > > 54.Rxb2+ Kxb2
> > > 55.Bxe5+ Kb1 draw
> > > 
> > > Now for the 39.Kf1...40.Rh2 combo
> > > 
> > > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > > 34.h6 Be5
> > > 35.h7 Bg7
> > > 36.Rf8 b4
> > > 37.h8Q Bxh8
> > > 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> > > 39.Kf1 b3
> > > 40.Rh2 Kc4
> > > 41.Ke1 Nd4
> > > 42.Kd1 Nf3
> > > 43.Rh5 e5
> > > 44.Bf6 b5
> > > 45.Rh8 Ne1 (Drawing move)

yes, I agree with everything you say here.
I hope Henley sees it.

On Mon Aug 23 17:35:44, Prove me wrong!!! wrote:
>  We should  be deciding on 34:...Bh8 Or 34:...Bc3!!! after GK sure  
> move of 33:Pf4    that is all!!
> 
> just a rookie but you guys only see GK taking the g3 pawn!!
> 
> I;m a rookie and i can see trouble for white with a g3 capture!!
> 
> Go ahead prove me wrong!!!

hmmmmm everyone ignores ME when I say 33.f4 Bd4+!
the FAQ people must be really confident of ...Bh8
being good I guess.

On Mon Aug 23 17:35:44, Prove me wrong!!! wrote:
>  We should  be deciding on 34:...Bh8 Or 34:...Bc3!!! after GK sure  
> move of 33:Pf4    that is all!!
> 
> just a rookie but you guys only see GK taking the g3 pawn!!
> 
> I;m a rookie and i can see trouble for white with a g3 capture!!
> 
> Go ahead prove me wrong!!!
It is possible 34...Kf5 too, but I didn³t  analyze this line. But you 
are sure we should cover the possibilities

Available at SmartChess Online
http://www.smartchess.com/SmartChessOnline/
Click on "Garry Kasparov versus The World"
Click on "Irina Analysis FAQ"

Downloads in 
CBV/PGN - zipped
CBV 
PGN 

Lines GM Ron Henley thinks need work and/or further  study:

33.fxg3 b4 34.g4 b3 35.Bd2
33.fxg3 b4 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke2
33.fxg3 b4 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke3
33.fxg3 b4 34.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2 Kd5 36.Ke3 Bxg3 37.Kd3

Pf4 should be the move that GK will play because of the fact that 
fxg3 does nothing for him except exchanging one of his last two pawns 
for an already dead pawn that is going nowhere: Hurrah for f4!!!

Hard to believe but the line is:

33...b4 34.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2 Kd5 36.Ke3 Bd4!+ (Bxg3 37.Kd3 seems to lose 
- I have tried loads of lines...) 37.Ke2 (37.Kd3 Ne5+ 38.Ke2 b2 39.h6 
Nc4) Ke4! (attacking) 38.g4 b2 39.g5 Be5! 40.g6 (40.Be3 Nb4 41.g6 Nc2 
42.h6 Nxe3 is in time too!) Nd4+ 41.Kf2 Nf5 42.h6 Bd4+ 43.Kg2 Nh4+ 
and White's pawns fall!

IM2429 and others, please check!!

With chessboard (400kb):

http://www.comicastle.com/99percent/pgn2.html

Without chessboard but much faster loading:

http://www.comicastle.com/cgi-bin/pgn.pl?T1=082301.pgn&T2=http://www.s
martchess.com/SmartChessOnline/smartchessonline/archive/MSNKasparov/fa
q14nb6.htm&T3=Smart%20Chess%20Online

99% Energy

Hello,

The lines in the 33.fxg3 Bxg3 line can be fixed...

34.h6 Be5
35.h7 Bg7
36.Rf8 b4
37.h8=Q Bxh8
38.Rxh8 Kd5
39.Kf1 b3
40.Rh2 Kc4
41.Ke1 Nd4
42.Kd1 Nf3
43.Rh5 e5
44.Bc1 d5
45.Bb2 d4
46.Ke2 e4
47.Rh8 

then 47...Ng1+ 48.Kf2 Nf3 repeating the position.
(instead of 47...b5)

why isn't the reply - f4 mentioned. If Kasparov play f4 and take the 
pawn with his king instead he maybe would be better of than if he 
plays - f*g3.

just a thought

33......P-b4  34.B-f4  B-d5+  35. K-g2  P-b3

36. P-g4  P-b2   37. P-g5  N-a5  38. P-g6 N-c4

39. P-h6  N-a3  40. P-g7 and wins

I don't have a current FAQ right now, but is Nd8 considered a bad 
move?

fxg3 b4
h6 Nd8
Rf8 Nf7
Bf4 Bxf4
gxf4 Nxh6 
   Ok, white won't play that line.  Kasparov wants h7 before trying 
to get us outmanuevered, does he not? Well then:
fxg3 b4
h6 Nd8
h7 b3
Bf4 Bh8 
   with Kd5 or Kd7, and e5 and b2 and perhaps Nf7 to come, depending 
on what white does with his bishop. Seems that Nd8 keeps the bishop 
from g5 and h6; but does it weaken black too much? The g pawn advance 
is tempered by our pawn advance on the b file, and our center pawns. 
When white activates the king, would this still be ok, or does it 
give up too much initial space for Kasparov to operate?
   Don't have a program to check this, so sorry if I am missing 
something obvious. ;)

This was an answer to something I said at work, I think its relevant 
since the inventor is admitting to long term problems with the g 
pawn!!

Re: it isn't " at least not for a long time" 
BMcC Inventor says b4 problem in long run 
spider-tf022.proxy.aol.com
Mon Aug 23 18:34:04 

On Mon Aug 23 14:34:12, OmniBob wrote:

If this is the best advocacy the inventor can come up with what does 
that say for a move? 

Many more positions have been held by the person who took what 
other's thought was poisoned that by the person who allowed 2 
connected past pawns!! . Remember Fischer in 72 ans his poisoned pawn 
Najdorf?
   Just because your horizon prevents you from seeing danger doesn't 
mean everyone else's is.
  
> 33.. b4 is a much stronger move. The g-pawn is what's known as a 
> "poisoned" pawn. In most of the main b4 lines the g-pawn 
> isn't even a problem, at least not for a long time. We need to make 
> every move count, and we can't afford to spend moves on things like 
> that.

On Mon Aug 23 18:21:21, richard bean wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> The lines in the 33.fxg3 Bxg3 line can be fixed...
> 
> 34.h6 Be5
> 35.h7 Bg7
> 36.Rf8 b4
> 37.h8=Q Bxh8
> 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> 39.Kf1 b3
> 40.Rh2 Kc4
> 41.Ke1 Nd4
> 42.Kd1 Nf3
> 43.Rh5 e5
> 44.Bc1 d5


44... d5 is illegal move. Your King is already there.
> 45.Bb2 d4
> 46.Ke2 e4
> 47.Rh8 
> 
> then 47...Ng1+ 48.Kf2 Nf3 repeating the position.
> (instead of 47...b5)

At the present time people are feverishly trying to save a game by 
allowing connected passers against the world champion, when one of 
his best lines consists of him giving his bihop for just our B pawn, 
yet we won't go for a deal where our bishop takes his last 2 pawns, 
one of which may very well queen.

I am going to examine the new b4 savest to maintain my perspective, 
but I see no convinging Bf4 line (See CCTeam) and g4 is far from 
being solved.

So the people screaming b4 because their name was in a sideline 
somewhere, you do the same and ask yourself what is best for the 
team. When the time came to abandon Rh8 (McCarthy) I was the 1st 
person, followed in hours by Smartchess/GM Chess.

We have almost a day, lets be objective and compare.

33.fxg3 b4
34.Kf2 b3

35.Bf4

For example

35... Bd4+
36.Ke2 b2
37.g4 Na5
38.Be3 Be5
39.Kd3 Kd5
40.Bd2 Nc4
41.Bc3
with advantage for white

On Mon Aug 23 18:15:12, 99 (na link only) wrote:
> With chessboard (400kb):
> 
> http://www.comicastle.com/99percent/pgn2.html
Unfortunately, this update doesn't work (Netscape)
while previous version worked perfectly.
> 
> Without chessboard but much faster loading:
> 
> http://www.comicastle.com/cgi-bin/pgn.pl?T1=082301.pgn&T2=http://www.s
> martchess.com/SmartChessOnline/smartchessonline/archive/MSNKasparov/fa
> q14nb6.htm&T3=Smart%20Chess%20Online
> 
> 99% Energy

nt, na

On Mon Aug 23 18:40:45, BMcC summary, 4 lines to 0 wrote:

> At the present time people are feverishly trying to save a game by 

> allowing connected passers against the world champion, when one of 

> his best lines consists of him giving his bihop for just our B pawn, 

> yet we won't go for a deal where our bishop takes his last 2 pawns, 

> one of which may very well queen.

> 

> I am going to examine the new b4 savest to maintain my perspective, 

> but I see no convinging Bf4 line (See CCTeam) and g4 is far from 

> being solved.

> 

> So the people screaming b4 because their name was in a sideline 

> somewhere, you do the same and ask yourself what is best for the 

> team. When the time came to abandon Rh8 (McCarthy) I was the 1st 

> person, followed in hours by Smartchess/GM Chess.

> 

> We have almost a day, lets be objective and compare.

On Mon Aug 23 18:39:20, WJG wrote:
> On Mon Aug 23 18:21:21, richard bean wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > The lines in the 33.fxg3 Bxg3 line can be fixed...
> > 
> > 34.h6 Be5
> > 35.h7 Bg7
> > 36.Rf8 b4
> > 37.h8=Q Bxh8
> > 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> > 39.Kf1 b3
> > 40.Rh2 Kc4
           ^^^
> > 41.Ke1 Nd4
> > 42.Kd1 Nf3
> > 43.Rh5 e5
> > 44.Bc1 d5
> 
> 
> 44... d5 is illegal move. Your King is already there.

It is not.  The black king is on c4.

I would advise that every effort be made to salvage
the move 33..Bxg3!? because the alternative 
33..b4 is really getting into murky waters.
For example the hardly analyzed

33      ..b4
34Bf4!? Bd4+
35Kg2   b3
36Kf3!        leads to all sorts of complications
              as the white king enters the game. 
              This line for example is not even    
              mentioned in Irina's latest FAQ.

Garri will try to keep his g pawn if given a chance and also will 
probably try to save a tempo by Bf4.

These plans need to be at the top of anyone's list anytime we 
consider b4.

in the FAQ position reached after:

33.fxg3 Bxg3
34.h6 Be5
35.h7 Bg7
36.Rf8 b4
37.h8Q Bxh8
38.Rxh8 Kd5
39.Kf1 b3
40.Rh2 Kc4
41.Ke1 Ne5
42.Kd1 Nf3
43.Rh5 e5 
44.Bc1

now:

44...d5
45.Rh7 b6
46.Rc7+ Kd3
47.Rb7 e4
48.Rxb6 Kc3
49.Ke2 Ne5
50.Bg5 d4
51.Bf6 Kc2
52.Bxe5 b2
53.Bxd4 b1Q
54.Rxb1 Kxb1 draw

Comments

On Mon Aug 23 18:57:22, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> I would advise that every effort be made to salvage
> the move 33..Bxg3!? because the alternative 
> 33..b4 is really getting into murky waters.
> For example the hardly analyzed
> 
> 33      ..b4
> 34Bf4!? Bd4+
> 35Kg2   b3
> 36Kf3!        leads to all sorts of complications
>               as the white king enters the game. 
>               This line for example is not even    
>               mentioned in Irina's latest FAQ.  
>

Duncan this line is their least analyzed, they had line B in the 
middle of the week as a loss by their own analysis, they recommended 
Bh8 to Bf4, but on g4 went to d4+. They claimed the lines transpose, 
I told them Kf3 was completely independent and they still posted it 
as a transposition!!

My ignored line, which I ran out 720 million moves was :
pv Nb4 g4 b2 Bd2 Nd3 Rb1 d5 g5 Kf5 Ke2 Nc1+ Kd1 +26 [Zarkov]732 mill


On Mon Aug 23 18:57:22, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> I would advise that every effort be made to salvage
> the move 33..Bxg3!? because the alternative 
> 33..b4 is really getting into murky waters.
> For example the hardly analyzed
> 
> 33      ..b4
> 34Bf4!? Bd4+
> 35Kg2   b3
> 36Kf3!        leads to all sorts of complications
>               as the white king enters the game. 
>               This line for example is not even    
>               mentioned in Irina's latest FAQ.  
>

Bxg3 line will leave us with the Knight and 2 pawns (e7&d6) against 
the Rook or the Knight and 3 pawns (2b pawns & d pawn). This is 
playable with a draw as most likely outcome.

But so is b4 line.See my lines further down the page (or next page).

Am I missing something?




On Mon Aug 23 18:40:45, BMcC summary, 4 lines to 0 wrote:
> At the present time people are feverishly trying to save a game by 
> allowing connected passers against the world champion, when one of 
> his best lines consists of him giving his bihop for just our B pawn, 
> yet we won't go for a deal where our bishop takes his last 2 pawns, 
> one of which may very well queen.
> 
> I am going to examine the new b4 savest to maintain my perspective, 
> but I see no convinging Bf4 line (See CCTeam) and g4 is far from 
> being solved.
> 
> So the people screaming b4 because their name was in a sideline 
> somewhere, you do the same and ask yourself what is best for the 
> team. When the time came to abandon Rh8 (McCarthy) I was the 1st 
> person, followed in hours by Smartchess/GM Chess.
> 
> We have almost a day, lets be objective and compare.

This is not even in the FAQ and I've posted
it about 5 times.  (33.f4 Bd4 34.Kg2 b4)

Perhaps I should try to nail their suggestion
instead.

By the way, I compiled the new version of
crafty (16.16) with the better passed pawn
evaluation code & ran it on a computer with
384Mb hash & 32Mb pawn hash.  It liked
Duncan Suttles' idea of 34.Bf4... which has
been looked at the CCT, true.  A little.

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

Don't count on 35. P-h7   that isn't a Gary move either, he would 
preserve the option of K-h7 and K-g8 (unless of course he sees a 
forced win)

On Mon Aug 23 19:03:59, Check this wrote:
> in the FAQ position reached after:
> 
> 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> 34.h6 Be5
> 35.h7 Bg7
> 36.Rf8 b4
> 37.h8Q Bxh8
> 38.Rxh8 Kd5
> 39.Kf1 b3
> 40.Rh2 Kc4
> 41.Ke1 Ne5
> 42.Kd1 Nf3
> 43.Rh5 e5 
> 44.Bc1
> 
> now:
> 
> 44...d5
> 45.Rh7

sure... ...b5 and ...b6 probably draw.
but I have this feeling that the
FAQ maintainers are a little hostile to
the whole Bxg3 idea.   Oh well...

Thanks for the advise.

BTW I downloaded Netscape and frankly it looks much better in IE 
because it supports the ability to change the level of indentation of 
the <UL> tag with a style tag. This means moves don't get 
thrown too much toward the right in variations in IE

But I understand that IE is not available on all platforms. Oh well.

Another comment: At the begining of the PGN file SmartChess says that 
red squares require further study. Unfortunately that comment applies 
to the CBV version of this file not the PGN file and works only for 
Chessbase. 

99%

On Mon Aug 23 18:48:05, misxyz wrote:
> On Mon Aug 23 18:15:12, 99 (na link only) wrote:
> > With chessboard (400kb):
> > 
> > http://www.comicastle.com/99percent/pgn2.html
> Unfortunately, this update doesn't work (Netscape)
> while previous version worked perfectly.
> > 
> > Without chessboard but much faster loading:
> > 
> > http://www.comicastle.com/cgi-bin/pgn.pl?T1=082301.pgn&T2=http://www.s
> > martchess.com/SmartChessOnline/smartchessonline/archive/MSNKasparov/fa
> > q14nb6.htm&T3=Smart%20Chess%20Online
> > 
> > 99% Energy

Please read:

http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/rc/48065.asp

On Mon Aug 23 18:57:22, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> I would advise that every effort be made to salvage
> the move 33..Bxg3!? because the alternative 
> 33..b4 is really getting into murky waters.
> For example the hardly analyzed
> 
> 33      ..b4
> 34Bf4!? Bd4+
> 35Kg2   b3
> 36Kf3!        leads to all sorts of complications
>               as the white king enters the game. 
>               This line for example is not even    
>               mentioned in Irina's latest FAQ.  
>

We people who support Bxg3 (GM Suttles, CC Team , myself, , and many 
others) are examining the b4 lines and comparing, I do not see that 
same effort from the b4 crowd and you have many more potential 
problems, besides allowing connected passers.

I see 2 simple ways to absolutely get an edge vs b4

1. Bf4 and Kf3, 2. Bf4 g4 ( more likely to be a maegeable draw. 

33.fxg3 b4 shawn 34.Bf4 34...Bd4 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3 b2 37.Ke4 Bf6 38.g4 
Nd4 39.g5 Nb5 40.gxf6 b1Q 41.Rxb1 Nxc3+ 42.Kd4 Nxb1 43.fxe7 Kxe7  14 
+0.11 9h CM5K Smart FAQ 8/18 Line F2b22 + my zarkov line, any plus 
score deserves a look!


2. 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 jb 34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. g4 Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. 
Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 Kc4 16 +0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris see below 
33.fxg3 b4 rb 34.g4 34...b3 35.Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 b2 38.Kf3 
Bc3 39.g5 e5 40.Be3 Ne7 41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5  17 +0.58 
12h crafty 16.15 personally I find it hard to believe that black is 
holding this latest hiarcs says we can draw, 
tablebases say we draw, but no line is given, are we trusting the 
entire game to someone's windows virtual memory?

On Mon Aug 23 18:57:22, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> I would advise that every effort be made to salvage
> the move 33..Bxg3!? because the alternative 
> 33..b4 is really getting into murky waters.
> For example the hardly analyzed
> 
> 33      ..b4
> 34Bf4!? Bd4+

Why do we have to give check? We could play 34... Bc3 and what will 
White do? Maybe 35.g4 Kf6 36.Bxd6+ Kg5 37.Bf5+ Kxg4 38.h6 b3 etc.

Of course, there might be holes in this line, but it shouldn't be 
hard to correct it. Didn't go into detail analysis, yet.

p.s.

Bxg3 is a playable line also. 



> 35Kg2   b3
> 36Kf3!        leads to all sorts of complications
>               as the white king enters the game. 
>               This line for example is not even    
>               mentioned in Irina's latest FAQ.  
>

(nt)

On Mon Aug 23 19:10:36, richard bean wrote:
> This is not even in the FAQ and I've posted
> it about 5 times.  (33.f4 Bd4 34.Kg2 b4)
> 
> Perhaps I should try to nail their suggestion
> instead.
> 
> By the way, I compiled the new version of
> crafty (16.16) with the better passed pawn
> evaluation code & ran it on a computer with
> 384Mb hash & 32Mb pawn hash.  It liked
> Duncan Suttles' idea of 34.Bf4... which has
> been looked at the CCT, true.  A little.
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

33.fxg3 b4 TM 34.Kf2 34...b3 35.Bf4 Bh8 36.g4 b2 37.Bd2 Ne5 38.g5 
Nd3+ 39.Kf3 Nc1 40.Rxc1 bxc1Q 41.Bxc1 Kf5 42.g6 Bg7  15/31 =0.23 
14.5h Hiarcs 7.32 15 ply 34.g4 =0.10  line: 34...b3 35.Bf4 Bd4+ Kg2 
Nb4 37.g5 b2 38.g6 Nd3 39.Kg3 Nc1 40.Rxc1 bxc1Q 41.Bxc1 b5 42.Kf3 Kf5 
43.Bh6 Ke6    analysis stopped  

they seem confident that is a draw.


On Mon Aug 23 19:00:48, BMcC Dealyed/Accelrated Bf4 calls all into ? 
wrote:
> On Mon Aug 23 18:43:28, vardi wrote:
> 
> Did 35 g4 come and go? looks good to Zarkov: 35...b2 36.Bd2 Nd4 
> 37.Bc3 Nb5 38.Bxe5 Kxe5 39.Re1+ Kf4 40.Rb1 Kxg4 41.Rxb2
> 
> We may not have paid attention before because all lines transposed 
> into pawn races, but now that we want to play Kf5 as our last gasp, 
> g4 looksdarn good!
> 
> 35...Nd4 36.h6 b2 37.h7 Nb5 38.Bf4 Bd4+ 39.Be3 Bc3 +17
> 
> but white has a completely free hand to walk to q side it seems. 
> 
> 
> Funny you have come across that idea, I was just analyzing that 
> possibility, when your post made me realize I played Kf5 out of 
> order!!
> But my plan was to interpose every Bf4 possible, as it seems to be an 
> ignored plan, once the King is on f2, we can 
> 
> 
> > 33.fxg3 b4
> > 34.Kf2 b3
> > 
> > 35.Bf4
> > 
> > For example
> > 
> > 35... Bd4+
> > 36.Ke2 b2
> > 37.g4 Na5
> > 38.Be3 Be5
> > 39.Kd3 Kd5
> > 40.Bd2 Nc4
> > 41.Bc3
> > with advantage for white

On Mon Aug 23 19:30:53, BMcC b4 fans hiding? what about Kf3?g4?Bf4? 
wrote:
> We people who support Bxg3 (GM Suttles, CC Team , myself, , and many 
> others) are examining the b4 lines and comparing, I do not see that 
> same effort from the b4 crowd and you have many more potential 
> problems, besides allowing connected passers.
> 
> I see 2 simple ways to absolutely get an edge vs b4
> 
> 1. Bf4 and Kf3, 2. Bf4 g4 ( more likely to be a maegeable draw. 
> 
> 33.fxg3 b4 shawn 34.Bf4 34...Bd4 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3 b2 37.Ke4 Bf6 38.g4 
> Nd4 39.g5 Nb5 40.gxf6 b1Q 41.Rxb1 Nxc3+ 42.Kd4 Nxb1 43.fxe7 Kxe7  14 
> +0.11 9h CM5K Smart FAQ 8/18 Line F2b22 + my zarkov line, any plus 
> score deserves a look!
> 
> 
> 2. 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 jb 34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. g4 Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. 
> Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 Kc4 16 +0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris see below 
> 33.fxg3 b4 rb 34.g4 34...b3 35.Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 b2 38.Kf3 
> Bc3 39.g5 e5 40.Be3 Ne7 41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5  17 +0.58 
> 12h crafty 16.15 personally I find it hard to believe that black is 
> holding this latest hiarcs says we can draw, 
> tablebases say we draw, but no line is given, are we trusting the 
> entire game to someone's windows virtual memory?
> 
> 
> 

Ron Henley likes it so you are right, you Bxg3 guys are doomed.  
35.Bf4 is a white move, RH thinks it will be Bd2 and he has some 
novel ideas for that line.  
Yes, I'm definetly a b4 guy, so I have less to fret about than you do 
and that's why we b4 guys are not frantically waving our arms as much 
as you Bxg3 guys.

On the ...BxG3 line black's strategy should be to exchange for 
white's rook and remaining pawn. The result would be a textbook draw, 
due to insufficient mating material. Black could even win if played 
well.
In either case, considering the champion's renowned expertise in the 
endgame, I think the world should offer a draw. I believe it is 
better to be safe than sorry. I would offer the draw.

On Mon Aug 23 19:17:49, richard bean wrote:...

> sure... ...b5 and ...b6 probably draw.
> but I have this feeling that the
> FAQ maintainers are a little hostile to
> the whole Bxg3 idea.   Oh well...

So I'm not the only one who feels that, 
would anyone  like to explain why we have become camps of various 
moves instead of trying to find the best moves.

After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3, I am cognizant of the latest ideas and 
improvements in the 33...b4 variation. (See may additional notes 
below).

As a chess player, my instinct would be to play 33...b4. However, I 
am also an open-minded chess player. When I first look at 33...Bxg3, 
I think it is suicide. However, I don't want to leave any 
possibilities out. Obviously to play 32.g3, GK has put ALL of his 
faith in the h-pawn and is willing to discard his g-pawn, and fight 
against a pawn mass.

After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 36.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 
Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 (38...Kf5 helps!?) 39.Kf1 

(We think we can handle 39.Kf2 - is that so!?)

39...b3 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Ne5 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5 e5 

(With the idea of advancing the d- and e-pawns. Computer Chess Team 
thinks this is a draw.) 

44.Bc1 d5 (44...Kd3!?) 45.Bb2 d4 46.Ke2 e4 47.Rh8

IK Question - is that White's best play from moves 39-47, because I 
don't know.  

Now 47...Ng1+ 48.Kf2 Nf3 "repeating the position" - Computer 
Chess Team.

If White tries 49.Rb8 Kd3 50.Rxb7 Kc2, then either 

51.Ba1 Kb1, or

51.Ba3 Ne5 52.Rb8 Nd3+ 53.Ke2 b2 54.Bxb2 Nxb2 55.Rc8+ Kb3 56.Re8 Kc3 
57.Rxe4, with a draw.

From moves 39-47, it seems that all of our faith must be placed in 
"silicon dreams". I am not a chess player who likes to be 
guided by computer generated analysis - I know the danger! The 
problem with this variation for a practical player is that IF you are 
wrong - then you are DEAD wrong.

As for 33...b4, there are still questions (as I see them) to answer 
in the lines:

34.g4 b3 35.Bd2
34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke2
34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke3
34.Bf4 Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3

Can these questions all be answered - we are working on it with the 
time limitations that are imposed on us.

Irina

snip
> 
> I see 2 simple ways to absolutely get an edge vs b4
> 
> 1. Bf4 and Kf3, 2. Bf4 g4 ( more likely to be a maegeable draw. 
> 

Why do you insist in both lines on 34... Bd4+ and thus give White 
tempi by letting him move his King closer to action.

Wouldn't 34... Bc3 be better. 





> 33.fxg3 b4 shawn 34.Bf4 34...Bd4 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3 b2 37.Ke4 Bf6 38.g4 
> Nd4 39.g5 Nb5 40.gxf6 b1Q 41.Rxb1 Nxc3+ 42.Kd4 Nxb1 43.fxe7 Kxe7  14 
> +0.11 9h CM5K Smart FAQ 8/18 Line F2b22 + my zarkov line, any plus 
> score deserves a look!
> 
> 
> 2. 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 jb 34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. g4 Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. 
> Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 Kc4 16 +0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris see below 
> 33.fxg3 b4 rb 34.g4 34...b3 35.Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 b2 38.Kf3 
> Bc3 39.g5 e5 40.Be3 Ne7 41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5  17 +0.58 
> 12h crafty 16.15 personally I find it hard to believe that black is 
> holding this latest hiarcs says we can draw, 
> tablebases say we draw, but no line is given, are we trusting the 
> entire game to someone's windows virtual memory?
> 
> 
>

On Mon Aug 23 19:37:18, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> ...After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 36.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 
> Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 (38...Kf5 helps!?)

I think if we need to keep out the king then Kf5 is the way to go, if 
we can continue to make progress as the CC team thinks and it 
appears, then the shortcut to c4 is the way to go.

since we are having a hard time selling a line that can't be stopped, 
it makes little sense to argue for a holding pattern in the same 
position.





 39.Kf1 
> 
> (We think we can handle 39.Kf2 - is that so!?)
> 
> 39...b3 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Ne5 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5 e5 
> 
> (With the idea of advancing the d- and e-pawns. Computer Chess Team 
> thinks this is a draw.) 
> 
> 44.Bc1 d5 (44...Kd3!?) 45.Bb2 d4 46.Ke2 e4 47.Rh8
> 
> IK Question - is that White's best play from moves 39-47, because I 
> don't know.  
> 
> Now 47...Ng1+ 48.Kf2 Nf3 "repeating the position" - Computer 
> Chess Team.
> 
> If White tries 49.Rb8 Kd3 50.Rxb7 Kc2, then either 
> 
> 51.Ba1 Kb1, or
> 
> 51.Ba3 Ne5 52.Rb8 Nd3+ 53.Ke2 b2 54.Bxb2 Nxb2 55.Rc8+ Kb3 56.Re8 Kc3 
> 57.Rxe4, with a draw.
> 
> From moves 39-47, it seems that all of our faith must be placed in 
> "silicon dreams". I am not a chess player who likes to be 
> guided by computer generated analysis - I know the danger! The 
> problem with this variation for a practical player is that IF you are 
> wrong - then you are DEAD wrong.
> 
> As for 33...b4, there are still questions (as I see them) to answer 
> in the lines:
> 
> 34.g4 b3 35.Bd2
> 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke2
> 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke3
> 34.Bf4 Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3
> 
> Can these questions all be answered - we are working on it with the 
> time limitations that are imposed on us.
> 
> Irina

The World loses with 32 ... FxG3
the World played the obvious move, and on the surface a harmless 
move, but the world loses with 
32 ... FxG3
why?
white replies with
33 F2-F4  

and white gains enough tempo to queen the h pawn, with black losing 
in the pawn race.

On Mon Aug 23 19:37:18, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3, I am cognizant of the latest ideas and 
> improvements in the 33...b4 variation. (See may additional notes 
> below).
> 
> As a chess player, my instinct would be to play 33...b4. However, I 
> am also an open-minded chess player. When I first look at 33...Bxg3, 
> I think it is suicide. However, I don't want to leave any 
> possibilities out. Obviously to play 32.g3, GK has put ALL of his 
> faith in the h-pawn and is willing to discard his g-pawn, and fight 
> against a pawn mass.
> 
> After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 36.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 
> Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 (38...Kf5 helps!?) 39.Kf1 
> 
> (We think we can handle 39.Kf2 - is that so!?)
> 
> 39...b3 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Ne5 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5 e5 
> 
> (With the idea of advancing the d- and e-pawns. Computer Chess Team 
> thinks this is a draw.) 
> 
> 44.Bc1 d5 (44...Kd3!?) 45.Bb2 d4 46.Ke2 e4 47.Rh8
> 
> IK Question - is that White's best play from moves 39-47, because I 
> don't know.  
> 
> Now 47...Ng1+ 48.Kf2 Nf3 "repeating the position" - Computer 
> Chess Team.
> 
> If White tries 49.Rb8 Kd3 50.Rxb7 Kc2, then either 
> 
> 51.Ba1 Kb1, or
> 
> 51.Ba3 Ne5 52.Rb8 Nd3+ 53.Ke2 b2 54.Bxb2 Nxb2 55.Rc8+ Kb3 56.Re8 Kc3 
> 57.Rxe4, with a draw.
> 
> From moves 39-47, it seems that all of our faith must be placed in 
> "silicon dreams". I am not a chess player who likes to be 
> guided by computer generated analysis - I know the danger! The 
> problem with this variation for a practical player is that IF you are 
> wrong - then you are DEAD wrong.
> 
> As for 33...b4, there are still questions (as I see them) to answer 
> in the lines:
> 
> 34.g4 b3 35.Bd2
> 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke2
> 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke3
> 34.Bf4 Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3
> 
> Can these questions all be answered - we are working on it with the 
> time limitations that are imposed on us.
> 
> Irina


Is 34... Bd4+ best move? It seems to give White King a tempi to move 
closer to action. Wouldn't 34... Bc3 be better?

IRINA
       __ If GK moves f pawn at 33, is there any value to The World 
playing 33...Bf6 with the idea of sliding Black's king over to halt 
the h pawn?

For what it's worth . . .

35 Bd2 Nd4
36 Kh1 ...
   (36. Bc1 Ne2+ 37. Kf2 Nxc1 38. Rxc1 b2 39. Rh1 Kf6 =+)
   (36. Kf2 Nc2 -+)
36 ... Ne2
37 Rb1 b2
38 h6 Kf6
39 Kg2 b5! =+

Hope this helps a little, Ron.

I can imagine that Kasparov is burning the candle at both ends with 
this dilema.  There are no easy answers for him either.

On Mon Aug 23 19:42:27, BMcC my take on Kf5/Kd5 wrote:
> On Mon Aug 23 19:37:18, Irina Krush wrote:
> > 
> > ...After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 36.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 
> > Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 (38...Kf5 helps!?)

>  39.Kf1 
> > 
> > (We think we can handle 39.Kf2 - is that so!?)

hopefully.  I skipped a detailed analysis of that because crafty & 
the FAQ agreed it was no problem.

> > 39...b3 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Ne5 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5 e5 
> > 
> > (With the idea of advancing the d- and e-pawns. Computer Chess Team 
> > thinks this is a draw.) 
> > 
> > 44.Bc1 d5 (44...Kd3!?) 45.Bb2 d4 46.Ke2 e4 47.Rh8
> > 
> > IK Question - is that White's best play from moves 39-47, because I 
> > don't know.  
> > 
> > Now 47...Ng1+ 48.Kf2 Nf3 "repeating the position" - Computer 
> > Chess Team.
> > 
> > If White tries 49.Rb8 Kd3 50.Rxb7 Kc2, then either 

or 49...Ne5, too.

> > From moves 39-47, it seems that all of our faith must be placed in 
> > "silicon dreams". I am not a chess player who likes to be 
> > guided by computer generated analysis - I know the danger! The 
> > problem with this variation for a practical player is that IF you are 
> > wrong - then you are DEAD wrong.

True.  There may be an improvement at move 40,
but after a very long time crafty saw nothing
better than 40.Bc1.  (and 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Bc1,  met by ...d5, was quite 
good for Black).

There's 36.Bh6, but I don't think there are
any post-move-41 improvements.

nt

On Mon Aug 23 19:37:18, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3, I am cognizant of the latest ideas and 
> improvements in the 33...b4 variation. (See may additional notes 
> below).
> 
> As a chess player, my instinct would be to play 33...b4. However, I 
> am also an open-minded chess player. When I first look at 33...Bxg3, 
> I think it is suicide. However, I don't want to leave any 
> possibilities out. Obviously to play 32.g3, GK has put ALL of his 
> faith in the h-pawn and is willing to discard his g-pawn, and fight 
> against a pawn mass.
> 
> After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 36.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 
> Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 (38...Kf5 helps!?) 39.Kf1 
> 
> (We think we can handle 39.Kf2 - is that so!?)
> 
> 39...b3 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Ne5 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5 e5 
> 
> (With the idea of advancing the d- and e-pawns. Computer Chess Team 
> thinks this is a draw.) 
> 
> 44.Bc1 d5 (44...Kd3!?) 45.Bb2 d4 46.Ke2 e4 47.Rh8
> 
> IK Question - is that White's best play from moves 39-47, because I 
> don't know.  
> 
> Now 47...Ng1+ 48.Kf2 Nf3 "repeating the position" - Computer 
> Chess Team.
> 
> If White tries 49.Rb8 Kd3 50.Rxb7 Kc2, then either 
> 
> 51.Ba1 Kb1, or
> 
> 51.Ba3 Ne5 52.Rb8 Nd3+ 53.Ke2 b2 54.Bxb2 Nxb2 55.Rc8+ Kb3 56.Re8 Kc3 
> 57.Rxe4, with a draw.
> 
> From moves 39-47, it seems that all of our faith must be placed in 
> "silicon dreams". I am not a chess player who likes to be 
> guided by computer generated analysis - I know the danger! The 
> problem with this variation for a practical player is that IF you are 
> wrong - then you are DEAD wrong.
> 
> As for 33...b4, there are still questions (as I see them) to answer 
> in the lines:
> 
> 34.g4 b3 35.Bd2
> 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke2
> 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke3
> 34.Bf4 Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3
> 
> Can these questions all be answered - we are working on it with the 
> time limitations that are imposed on us.
> 
> Irina

Dear Irina,

Ask your co-analysts to give a quick look at 33. Kg2. It just seems 
to have something wise in it, in case we decide to take also the pawn 
on f2, which would be retaken by the rook, advancing the defence 
against our b-pawn to the second rank, and keeping all white's 
attacking possibilities open in our king's side...

From your brazilian-ukrainian co-warrior,

Wolodymir Boruszewski

what is the idea? an extra move in the B-c1, R-f2 blockade?   nice 
thought











On Mon Aug 23 19:58:50, WolŸ wrote:

> On Mon Aug 23 19:37:18, Irina Krush wrote:

> > 

> > After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3, I am cognizant of the latest ideas and 

> > improvements in the 33...b4 variation. (See may additional notes 

> > below).

> > 

> > As a chess player, my instinct would be to play 33...b4. However, I 

> > am also an open-minded chess player. When I first look at 33...Bxg3, 

> > I think it is suicide. However, I don't want to leave any 

> > possibilities out. Obviously to play 32.g3, GK has put ALL of his 

> > faith in the h-pawn and is willing to discard his g-pawn, and fight 

> > against a pawn mass.

> > 

> > After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 36.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 

> > Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 (38...Kf5 helps!?) 39.Kf1 

> > 

> > (We think we can handle 39.Kf2 - is that so!?)

> > 

> > 39...b3 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Ne5 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5 e5 

> > 

> > (With the idea of advancing the d- and e-pawns. Computer Chess Team 

> > thinks this is a draw.) 

> > 

> > 44.Bc1 d5 (44...Kd3!?) 45.Bb2 d4 46.Ke2 e4 47.Rh8

> > 

> > IK Question - is that White's best play from moves 39-47, because I 

> > don't know.  

> > 

> > Now 47...Ng1+ 48.Kf2 Nf3 "repeating the position" - Computer 

> > Chess Team.

> > 

> > If White tries 49.Rb8 Kd3 50.Rxb7 Kc2, then either 

> > 

> > 51.Ba1 Kb1, or

> > 

> > 51.Ba3 Ne5 52.Rb8 Nd3+ 53.Ke2 b2 54.Bxb2 Nxb2 55.Rc8+ Kb3 56.Re8 Kc3 

> > 57.Rxe4, with a draw.

> > 

> > From moves 39-47, it seems that all of our faith must be placed in 

> > "silicon dreams". I am not a chess player who likes to be 

> > guided by computer generated analysis - I know the danger! The 

> > problem with this variation for a practical player is that IF you are 

> > wrong - then you are DEAD wrong.

> > 

> > As for 33...b4, there are still questions (as I see them) to answer 

> > in the lines:

> > 

> > 34.g4 b3 35.Bd2

> > 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke2

> > 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke3

> > 34.Bf4 Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3

> > 

> > Can these questions all be answered - we are working on it with the 

> > time limitations that are imposed on us.

> > 

> > Irina

> 

> Dear Irina,

> 

> Ask your co-analysts to give a quick look at 33. Kg2. It just seems 

> to have something wise in it, in case we decide to take also the pawn 

> on f2, which would be retaken by the rook, advancing the defence 

> against our b-pawn to the second rank, and keeping all white's 

> attacking possibilities open in our king's side...

> 

> From your brazilian-ukrainian co-warrior,

> 

> Wolodymir Boruszewski

In your variation 33 ...  Bxg3 WHY 36 ... Bg7?  This move has no 
value.  It does not prevent Rf8.   Why not 36 ... b4.  Leading to one 
variation:

37 Rf8  b3
38 h8   Bxh8
39 Rxh8 b2 with no way to stop b1?

Just wondering...
Mike


On Mon Aug 23 19:37:18, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3, I am cognizant of the latest ideas and 
> improvements in the 33...b4 variation. (See may additional notes 
> below).
> 
> As a chess player, my instinct would be to play 33...b4. However, I 
> am also an open-minded chess player. When I first look at 33...Bxg3, 
> I think it is suicide. However, I don't want to leave any 
> possibilities out. Obviously to play 32.g3, GK has put ALL of his 
> faith in the h-pawn and is willing to discard his g-pawn, and fight 
> against a pawn mass.
> 
> After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 36.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 
> Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 (38...Kf5 helps!?) 39.Kf1 
> 
> (We think we can handle 39.Kf2 - is that so!?)
> 
>

This better be important, they are into a sudden death chukker at the 
polo matches. (reminder to myself:next time at polo matches, sit 
upwind)

Dear Dr. Chess-Garri has played 32. g3, the world has countered with 
fxg. Help what are we to do???Aussie chess club.

Dear gooday mates:It that you Chips? Tell the fellows at the pub have 
a foster's on me. Now what the bloody fuss all about. 

You tell those lads to turn off those computers and scatter those 
pieces off the board and let go for a 
walkout...............................................................
.............................................OK, now they better turn 
back on those computers and pick up the piece quickly and put them 
back on the board because we lost a time doing that.  

Cheers!

On Mon Aug 23 20:06:34, WhisperIII wrote:
> In your variation 33 ...  Bxg3 WHY 36 ... Bg7?  This move has no 
> value.  It does not prevent Rf8.   Why not 36 ... b4. 

37.Re1 wins for White.

On Mon Aug 23 20:06:34, WhisperIII wrote:

> In your variation 33 ...  Bxg3 WHY 36 ... Bg7?  This move has no 

> value.  It does not prevent Rf8.   Why not 36 ... b4.  Leading to one 

> variation:

> 

> 37 Rf8  b3

> 38 h8   Bxh8

> 39 Rxh8 b2 with no way to stop b1?

> 

> Just wondering...

> Mike

> (.) (.)

not 38. P-h8 (Q) but 38. R-f6+ wins

> 

> On Mon Aug 23 19:37:18, Irina Krush wrote:

> > 

> > After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3, I am cognizant of the latest ideas and 

> > improvements in the 33...b4 variation. (See may additional notes 

> > below).

> > 

> > As a chess player, my instinct would be to play 33...b4. However, I 

> > am also an open-minded chess player. When I first look at 33...Bxg3, 

> > I think it is suicide. However, I don't want to leave any 

> > possibilities out. Obviously to play 32.g3, GK has put ALL of his 

> > faith in the h-pawn and is willing to discard his g-pawn, and fight 

> > against a pawn mass.

> > 

> > After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 36.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 

> > Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 (38...Kf5 helps!?) 39.Kf1 

> > 

> > (We think we can handle 39.Kf2 - is that so!?)

> > 

> >

On Mon Aug 23 20:03:31, horndog187 wrote:
> what is the idea? an extra move in the B-c1, R-f2 blockade?   nice 
> thought

Please excuse me I did not get your whole idea but the things I 
noticed when observed the Kg2 suggestions where:

. if we take the pawn at f2, then GK retakes it with the rook, that 
in conjunction with Bc1, moves the stop square to our b-pawn to b2;

. if we do not take that f2 pawn, then GK takes our g3 pawn with his 
king's support, having then those wonderful two connected passed 
pawns;

Now, as I confess in my previous comment I am an average player (my 
best achievement was a win against Chessmaster 5000 at Championship 
level, with no tricks) but my point is just to call attention to a 
possible third move by Kasparov. Anyway, according to my readings 
there is always a surprising move when a great player beats another 
one...

Thanking for your answer,

Wolodymir Boruszewski

R vs N+2 pawns     R vs N+3 pawns

33.fxg3   Bxg3     
34.h6     Be5
35.h7     Bg7
36.Rf8    Ne5       36.Bxe7   Kxe7
37.h8Q    Bxh8      37.h8Q    Bxh8
38.Rxh8   Nf3+      38.Rxh8   Kd7
39.Kf2    Nxg5
40.Rb7

Both lines should give easy DRAW!

33.fxg3   b4
34.Bf4    Bc3!
35.g4     Kf6
36.Bxd6+  Kg5
37.Bf5+   Kxg4
38.h6     b3  and Black is OK.

My usual opponent has the irritating habit of dumping his colostomy 
bag upon the board after a blunder.  What should I do?

On Mon Aug 23 19:37:18, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> IK Question - is that White's best play from moves 39-47, because I 
> don't know.  
 33. fxg3 

pv Bxg3 h6 Be5 Kg2 b4 h7 Bg7 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 Ke4 d5+ 
Ke3 -10 [Zarkov] 

Bxg3 

pv h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Bd4 Be3 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 -7 
[Zarkov] 1.17 billion nodes 

34. h6 Be5 35. h7 

Bf6 big threat!  (GM Chess) 

35...Bg7! (CCTeam worked on by /Suttles/BMcC) 

(pv Rb1 b4 Bd2 Kf7 Bxb4 Kg6 Bd2 Kxh7 Rxb7 -15 [Zarkov] )

36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. Rh3 

(39 Kc4 40. Bd2 Nd4 41. Kf2 pv b5 Rh7 Nf5 Rf7 e6 Rc7+ Kb3 Ke2 d5 -40 
[Zarkov] pv b5 Rh7 b3 Rxe7 b2 Re1 Nb3 Ke3 Nc1 Rxc1+ bxc1 Bxc1 d5 -28 
[Zarkov]  

39. Kf2  pv b3 Rh1 Kd4 Rb1 Kc3 Ke3 Kc2 Rh1 -39 [Zarkov] 2 mill)

OK Here's the new start of the "main line Bg3" 

36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. Kf1 b3 


36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. Kf1 b3  (then ran: 

pv Bc1 Kc4 Bb2 Kd3 Rh3+ Kc2 Rh2+ Kb1 Bc3 Kc1 Bb2+ Kd1 -40 [Zarkov] 2 
million Rh2 seems forced, Ke2 maybe? but it stops quick, and goes 
back to rh2 )

40. Rh2 Kc4  (pv Rf2 e6 Rd2 Nd4 Kf2 d5 Ke3 Nf5+ Ke2 -78 [Zarkov] 2 
mill pv Rh4+ Kd3 Rh3+ Kc2 Rh2+ Kb1 Re2 e5 Kf2 -61 [Zarkov] 
Zarkov is ready to call it a day for white, it is convinced white is 
worse, with black he is not  as quick to shake:  )

41. Ke1  (pv Nd4 Kd1 Nf3 Rh5 e5 Bc1 Kd3 Rh7 b5 -81 [Zarkov] 1.5 mill 
pv Nd4 Kd1 Nf3 Rg2 Nxg5 Rxg5 e6 Kc1 -79 [Zarkov] did we look at Nd4? 
probably transposes since nf3 is coming )

Nd4 (pv Rh4+ Kb5 Ke2 e6 Bc1 b6 Rh6 Nc6 Bb2 -19 [Zarkov] 3 mill Zark 
is still wishin on a rook perp, of course that makes no sense, but 
what else? the pawns  are coming! Kb5 seems too optomistic though, we 
could take this rook perp at will. )

42. Kd1 Nf3 (Rh5 only candidate after 2 secs of Rg2 )

43. Rh5 e5 

(e5 no brainer, unless we lose e5 is in,  )

44. Bc1 

(pv d5 Rh7 b6 Rc7+ Kd3 Rb7 Nd4 Rxb6 e4 -31 [Zarkov] Bc1 only 
candidate!  )

d5 (pv Rh7 b6 Rc7+ Kb4 Ke2 Nd4+ Kd2 Nf5 Bb2 e4 Rd7 Kc4 Rc7+ Kb5 -10 
[Zarkov] 2 mill pv Rh7 b6 Rc7+ Kb4 Bb2 e4 Rc6 Kb5 Rd6 Kc5 Ba3+ Kc4 
Rxb6 -12 [Zarkov] )

45. Bb2 d4 (pv Rh7 b5 Ke2 e4 Rc7+ Kd5 Rd7+ Kc5 Re7 d3+ Kd1 Kd5 -41 
[Zarkov]
Last chance for Rh7 it seems, )

46. Ke2 e4 who can argue we aren't fine here? Absolutey not Zarkov, 
he is ready to run away and try again before coughing up a 1/2. With 
4 pawns who can blame them. I onced helped Jay Bonin analyze an 
adjournment with Walter Browne, 4 pawns vs rook and it took exact 
play for the rook to hold. The game ended in a draw, but our knight 
adds dynamic chances to counter a doubled button. 

Zarkov gives up on Rh7 fast :pv Rh8 b5 Rc8+ Kd5 Rd8+ Kc5 Re8 d3+ Ke3 
d2 Ke2 Kd5 Rd8+ Kc4 Rxd2 Nxd2 Kxd2 -13 [Zarkov] 2 mill

47 Ng1+ The king can go to f2, but must it seems forced he must 
return when we do Nf3

Looks awful tight to me, we might even have obscure winning chances, 
if we bother to look!



the 1st line where black always is better, in b4 we're always worse, 
and they say computers like material
> 
> Now 47...Ng1+ 48.Kf2 Nf3 "repeating the position" - Computer 
> Chess Team.
> 
> If White tries 49.Rb8 Kd3 50.Rxb7 Kc2, then either 
> 
> 51.Ba1 Kb1, or
> 
> 51.Ba3 Ne5 52.Rb8 Nd3+ 53.Ke2 b2 54.Bxb2 Nxb2 55.Rc8+ Kb3 56.Re8 Kc3 
> 57.Rxe4, with a draw.
> 
> From moves 39-47, it seems that all of our faith must be placed in 
> "silicon dreams". I am not a chess player who likes to be 
> guided by computer generated analysis - I know the danger! The 
> problem with this variation for a practical player is that IF you are 
> wrong - then you are DEAD wrong.
> 
> As for 33...b4, there are still questions (as I see them) to answer 
> in the lines:
> 
> 34.g4 b3 35.Bd2
> 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke2
> 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke3
> 34.Bf4 Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3
> 
> Can these questions all be answered - we are working on it with the 
> time limitations that are imposed on us.
> 
> Irina

take a breather

On Mon Aug 23 20:19:11, pvt1curly wrote:

> My usual opponent has the irritating habit of dumping his colostomy 

> bag upon the board after a blunder.  What should I do?

On Mon Aug 23 20:19:11, pvt1curly wrote:
> My usual opponent has the irritating habit of dumping his colostomy 
> bag upon the board after a blunder.  What should I do?

Don't let it hit the fan.

On Mon Aug 23 20:19:11, pvt1curly wrote:
> My usual opponent has the irritating habit of dumping his colostomy 
> bag upon the board after a blunder.  What should I do?
Dear Private Curley. Above all be sure his bean intake is limited. 
The only absolutely anticipated move in chess is that when it is your 
turn to play, you MUST move some piece--unless of course you are 
playing by Dr. Chess's rules.

Hang on, what that charles, the ponies are off...love to chat but 
duty calls. 

p.s pro bono

On Mon Aug 23 20:22:19, BMcC Ok u asked, every alternative 39-47 
wrote:
> On Mon Aug 23 19:37:18, Irina Krush wrote:
> > 
> > IK Question - is that White's best play from moves 39-47, because I 

<snip>

> 39. Kf2  pv b3 Rh1 Kd4 Rb1 Kc3 Ke3 Kc2 Rh1 -39 [Zarkov] 2 mill)

can I point out 39.Kf2 b3 40.Bc1 Kc4! seems to draw
- same idea - d5, e5, d4 etc.  40...Ne5 was claimed in the FAQ to 
draw.  40...e5 is another idea.

also crafty likes 39.Kf2 b3 40.Rh1 Kc4.

I am quite confident about 43...e5 drawing as it
went to 19 ply last night.  So really we
only need to consider 39-43 alternatives.

isn't it great that zarkov & crafty agree :-)

Whichever line is picked by Krush/Henley, let's have no complaints - 
let's ALL start analyzing it - because we have tough decisions on 
Thursday and Sunday and we have less time to prepare for them. We 
have had almost a week to analyze b4 vs. Bxg3 - and we could have 
used a month...

So, since we know the Krush/Henley pick will win, at 3PM tomorrow 
(EST) I start analyzing that line (even if they pick Bxg3).

If he plays f4? Then too I accept the Krush/Henley recommendation as 
they have seen our discussions of Kf5 (which seemed OK) and still 
changed to Bh8 in their FAQ.

I thought my cry to examine possibilities to play Kd3 had gone 
unanswered, but actually CC Team ran my line and it cam out +34, not 
bad, but no ...Kd5. 
Here GM Henley presents a position to visualize before embarking on 
specific analysis, The way Lev Alburt taught when he was giving 
lectures on most every K-K game during match 1 at the Manhattan Chess 
Club.


Here is the impact of the idea on the game variation , and also the 
position itself: 


33. fxg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35. h7 Bg7  36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. 
Rxh8 Kd5 39. Kf1 b3 
40. Rh2 Kc4 41. Ke1 Ne5 42. Kd1 Nf3 43. Rh5 e5 44. Bc1 

Here's the new try , the idea stands up, it is an important model to 
show we can drop both b pawns and make a draw with a pawn on 5th and 
1 on 6th , due to the knight's dynamic effect and unability to put us 
is a zugzwang! 

Kd3 !? =

pv Rh6 d5 Rb6 Kc3 Rxb7 d4 Rc7+ Kd3 Rb7 Kc3 +2 [Zarkov] 

45. Rh7 d5 46. Rxb7 Kc3 47. Bh6 e4 

pv Kc1 d4 Re7 Kd3 Kb2 e3 Kxb3 +52 [Zarkov] 

48. Rc7+ Kd3 49. Rb7 Kc3 

pv Kc1 d4 Re7 Kd3 Kb2 e3 Kxb3 +52 [Zarkov] 

50. Bg7+ d4 51. Rc7+ Kd3 52. Rb7 Kc3 53. Bf6 e3 

pv Rb6 Kc4 Ke2 Ng1+ Kd1 d3 Re6 e2+ Kc1 Nf3 Re4+ Kd5 -45 [Zarkov] 

54. Be7 Kd3 55. Rxb3+ Ke4 56. Bc5 Ng1 

pv Rb4 Nf3 Ra4 Kd3 Ra3+ Kc4 Bb6 Ne5 Ra4+ Kb5 +152 [Zarkov] 

57. Rb4 Nf3 58. Rb8 Ng1 59. Ke1 Nf3+ 60. Kd1 Ng1 61. Ra8 Nf3 

pv Ra3 Nd2 Ra4 Nb3 Bd6 Kd3 +138 [Zarkov] pv Rf8 Nd2 Rd8 Nf3 Re8+ Kd3 
Bd6 Ng1 +153 [Zarkov] 

62. Rd8 Kd3 63. Re8 Ng1 64. Rf8 Ke4 65. Ra8 Nf3 

Here is position 1 ran out, in both lines even though the evals are 
150, no breakthrough can be found at these trial runs. 

1. Rxb3+ Ke4 2. Rb4 Kd3 3. Rb3+ Ke4 4. Bb6 Ng1 5. Ra3 

pv Nf3 Ba7 Ne5 Ra4 Nf3 Bc5 Kd3 Ra3+ Ke4 +147 [Zarkov] 

Nf3 6. Ba7 Ng1 7. Ra4 Nf3 8. Ke2 Ng1+ 9. Ke1 Nf3+ 10. Kd1 Kd3 

1. Rxb3+ Ke4 2. Rb4 Kd3 3. Rb3+ Ke4 4. Bb6 Ng1 5. Ra3 

pv Nf3 Ba7 Ne5 Ra4 Nf3 Bc5 Kd3 Ra3+ Ke4 +147 [Zarkov] 

Nf3 6. Ba7 Ng1 7. Ra4 Nf3 8. Ke2 Ng1+ 9. Ke1 Nf3+ 10. Kd1 Kd3 


Here's GM Henley's orinal post requesting us to examine the 
"fantasy variation" 


I was sent an e-mail by a strong player I know (we will leave him as 
anonymous as it was a private e-mail).

Consider the following position:

White: Rook on b7, Bishop on a7, King on d1 (to move).

Black: Knight on f3, King on d3, pawns on b3, d4 and e3.

White plays 1.Rxb3+ Ke4 2.Rb8 Kd3 3.Re8 Ng1 (beginning a knight 
shuttle to and from g1 and f3) 4.Ke1 Nf3+ 5.Kf1 Nd2+ 6.Kg2 Nb3 7.Rh8

(7.Kf3 - king going behind pawns - 7...Nd2+ 8.Kf4 e2 9.Bxd4 Kxd4 
10.Rxe2 - draw)

7...Kd2 8.Rh1 d3 9.Kf3 e2 10.Be3+ Kc2 11.Rg1 d2 12.Kxe2 Nc1+ 13.Kf3 
d1Q+ 14.Rxd1 Kxd1 - draw.

Does this piece-pawn configuration offer drawing chances? Can this 
piece-pawn configuration be reached?

After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 
Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 39.Kf1 b3 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Ne5 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5 e5 
44.Bc1, we reach a position that is the FAQ. 

Now let's exercise "a little fantasy" and "help" 
White reach the desired piece-pawn configuration:

44...Kd3!? 45.Rh7 d5 46.Rxb7 Kc3 47.Bh6 e4 48.Rc7+ Kd3 49.Rb7 Kc3 
50.Bg7+ d4 51.Rc7+ Kd3 52.Rb7 Kc3 53.Bf6 e3 54.Be7 Kd3 55.Rxb3+ Ke4 
56.Bc5 Ng1 57.Rb4 Nf3 - voila! Of course this is not forced - nor is 
it even likely to be correct, but it does provide fuel for thought.

Ron

On Mon Aug 23 19:37:18, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3, I am cognizant of the latest ideas and 
> improvements in the 33...b4 variation. (See may additional notes 
> below).
> 
> As a chess player, my instinct would be to play 33...b4. However, I 
> am also an open-minded chess player. When I first look at 33...Bxg3, 
> I think it is suicide. However, I don't want to leave any 
> possibilities out. Obviously to play 32.g3, GK has put ALL of his 
> faith in the h-pawn and is willing to discard his g-pawn, and fight 
> against a pawn mass.
> 
> After 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 36.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8Q 
> Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 (38...Kf5 helps!?) 39.Kf1 
> 
> (We think we can handle 39.Kf2 - is that so!?)
> 
> 39...b3 40.Rh2 Kc4 41.Ke1 Ne5 42.Kd1 Nf3 43.Rh5 e5 
> 
> (With the idea of advancing the d- and e-pawns. Computer Chess Team 
> thinks this is a draw.) 
> 
> 44.Bc1 d5 (44...Kd3!?) 45.Bb2 d4 46.Ke2 e4 47.Rh8
> 
> IK Question - is that White's best play from moves 39-47, because I 
> don't know.  
> 
> Now 47...Ng1+ 48.Kf2 Nf3 "repeating the position" - Computer 
> Chess Team.
> 
> If White tries 49.Rb8 Kd3 50.Rxb7 Kc2, then either 
> 
> 51.Ba1 Kb1, or
> 
> 51.Ba3 Ne5 52.Rb8 Nd3+ 53.Ke2 b2 54.Bxb2 Nxb2 55.Rc8+ Kb3 56.Re8 Kc3 
> 57.Rxe4, with a draw.
> 
> From moves 39-47, it seems that all of our faith must be placed in 
> "silicon dreams". I am not a chess player who likes to be 
> guided by computer generated analysis - I know the danger! The 
> problem with this variation for a practical player is that IF you are 
> wrong - then you are DEAD wrong.
> 
> As for 33...b4, there are still questions (as I see them) to answer 
> in the lines:
> 
> 34.g4 b3 35.Bd2
> 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke2
> 34.Kf2 b3 35.Ke3
> 34.Bf4 Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3
> 
> Can these questions all be answered - we are working on it with the 
> time limitations that are imposed on us.
> 
> Irina

What about 33. fxg3 Bxg3 34. Bf4

On Mon Aug 23 23:01:02, BMcC CC Team line vs f4?! wrote:
> On Mon Aug 23 22:56:38, Cloverhead wrote:
> 
> 
> These lines do however hold up to human analysis:
> fg3 f4 Bd4+ and....
> 34. Kg2 b4 35. Kxg3 b3 36. f5+ Kf7 37. h6 b2 38. h7 Kg7 39. Rh1 Kh8 
> 40. Kf3 d5 41. Ke2 b5 42. Kd3 Be5 43. Ke3 b4 44. Kd3 is the main line 
> (-14 for Black) 
> 
 I haven't gone through these moves but isn't -14 bad???

GM Henley's 4' oclock post referred to a popular theme, giving away 
bishop for a pawn, although the computer says +100, he is correct we 
need to see it thru: Zarkov has no clue until he sees the pieces 
can't get over, it goes from -100 to + 400  very fast

These were just my 1st thought, but it verifies the critical nature 
of this dirty trick!
33. fxg3 

pv Bxg3 h6 Be5 Kg2 b4 h7 Bg7 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 Ke4 d5+ 
Ke3 -10 [Zarkov] 

b4 34. Kf2 Kd5 35. g4 b3 36. Bd2 Ke4 37. g5 Kd3 38. Bc1 b2 39. Bxb2 
Bxb2 40. Rb1 Bd4+ 41. Kf3 b6 42. Rd1+ Kc4 43. h6 Ne5+ 44. Ke4 d5+ 45. 
Kf5 Nf7 

nope 46.Rxd4+ Kxd4 47.h7 Nh8 48.g6 e6+ 49.Kf6 Nxg6 50.Kxg6 Kc5 51.h8 
Kd6 52.Qd4 Kc6 +557

What is the line for white which caused Irina and
her advisors to start considering 33..b4?! when they
had all but decided on 33..Bxg3!? a few days ago.

On Mon Aug 23 23:17:01, Duncan Suttles wrote:

They weren't convinced about the ending after they saw Kf1, and 
switched back to b4 from Bg3, the line is fine now onthe CC team 
page, and GM Henley even found a game position where we can toss our 
b pawns for nothing and still draw easy (see my fanatasy camp post).
I would think with the problems in Kf2 line (Bc1 idea) and the 
unanswered questions of Bf4, that Bg3 will be their choice. No one 
can say they haven't looked at both lines, that's for sure!


> What is the line for white which caused Irina and
> her advisors to start considering 33..b4?! when they
> had all but decided on 33..Bxg3!? a few days ago.

SEE DISCUSSION BOARDS...

33.fxg3 Nd4 !!! [..Nd4-..Ne2+-..Nc3 LIVES ON DESPITE NOT PLAYING 
32..f3 WHICH WORLD WOULD HAVE WON!]
34.h6   b4
35.h7   b3
36.Bf6  Nf3+
37.Kg2  b2
38.Kxf3 Kf7!!! +++

You are right... (sigh) (whimper) (groan) f4 cannot win ever, ever, 
ever.

The only way he can cover h8 is with his rook and he cannot do that 
in enough time to also protect b1

I commend you (or at the very least your computer)

;-(

The timing of this event sucs. It is bound to last until the WCC is 
over. Good strategy KASPAROV.

Very few posts at this time, I think. Guess the Americans are gone to 
bed. Also, on my browser there is only 6 rows of bulletin posts 
compared to the normal 12. Anybody know why?

On Mon Aug 23 23:57:49, Cloverhead wrote:
)
> You are right... (sigh) (whimper) (groan) f4 cannot win ever, ever, 
> ever.
> 
> The only way he can cover h8 is with his rook and he cannot do that 
> in enough time to also protect b1
> 
> I commend you (or at the very least your computer)
> 
> ;-(

Best viewed at my page: 
http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html 

Kasparov proclaims game "the most complicated and analyzed game 
in the history of chess," Wall Street Journal 8/12/99 "It's 
quite annoying from my point of view because if I do a second-quality 
move in this game, there's just no way out." Does he mean 16. 
a4?! 

The game so far: 

[Site "Microsoft Gaming Zone"] 

[White "Kasparov, G."] 

[Black "The World"] 

[ECO "B52"] 

[EventDate "1999.??.??"] 

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. 
O-O g6 8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Bg7 10. Nde2 Qe6 {N (Krush) The "World 
Variation"} 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Nc7+ Kd7 13. Nxa8 Qxc4 14. Nb6+ axb6 
15. Nc3 Ra8 {(Speelman)} 16. a4 16... Ne4 17. Nxe4 17... Qxe4 18. Qb3 
18... f5 (GM School - Khalifman)} 19. Bg5 19... Qb4 {(Jason Van 
Eaton)} 20. Qf7 Be5 {(Brian McCarthy)} 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. 
Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7  Bd4 26. Qb3 f4 {{Yasha}}27. Qf7 Be5 
28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. g3 fg3 (above designations as 
given by analyst US Women's champion Irina Krush: 
www.smartchess.com): 

World Annoys Kasparov!     World Bluffs Kasparov!?  9 New, Critical 
Ideas! 

35...Bg7 is the 1st main line to be all better for black!! I like 
that in a game! 
Other supporters of Bxg3 include GM Duncan Suttles and Computer Chess 
Team. 

Outline 8/23/99 Predicting   32. fg3 Score of Predictions so far 18-1 
(Qf5+?!) 

Recommending: 33. fg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35 h7 Bg7 36 Rf8 b4! 37. h8(Q) 
Bxh8 "CM finds 35...Bg7! after 75 hours and switches from 33...b4 
back to 33...Bxg3. " CC Team. It is based on a bishop sacrifice 
that need clarifying, but the 4 pawns for a rook it brings seems to 
be best and is holding up well. 

Developments! Smartchess and GM Chess both support b4 today but it is 
not scoring too well against a couple of moves and GM Suttles has 
agreed with an earlier post I made concerning Bf4 and Kf3 +26. People 
may ask if I was the person who's name is Be5, how could u send him 
to the sidelines, dying a brutal rook sac induced death? Simple Chess 
is the game of Kings! I see no reason to forfeit a chance to end the 
game for murky play with 4 lines in need of work, hopefully we can 
reach an agreement based on an intellectual discussion, Irina is 
making a good effort to examine all possibilities and her presence on 
the BBS add hope to a successful solution. 

The trickiest try for Kasparov in the b4 lines seems to be giving 
bishop for b pawn and then trying to queen passers: In a line asked 
to be reviewed by GM Henley: 33. fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 Kd5 35. g4 b3 36. 
Bd2 Ke4 37. g5 Kd3 38. Bc1 b2 39. Bxb2 Bxb2 40. Rb1 (probably not 
better than h6 see below) Bd4+ 41. Kf3 b6 42. Rd1+ Kc4 43. h6 Ne5+ 
44. Ke4 d5+ 45. Kf5 Nf7 nope loses easy: pv Rxd4+ Kxd4 h7 Nh8 g6 e6+ 
Kf6 Nxg6 Kxg6 b5 h8+ e5 +451 [Zarkov] 

fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 Kd5 35. g4 b3 36. Bd2 Ke4 37. g5 Kd3 38. Bc1 b2 39. 
Bxb2 Bxb2 40. h6 Ke4 41. g6 (pv e6 g7 Ne7 Rg1 Bd4+ Ke2 Bxg7 Rxg7 Nd5 
Rxb7 +85 [Zarkov] pv Ne5 Re1+ Kf5 Rxe5+ Kxg6 Rxe7 Kxh6 Rxb7 Bc3 +41 
[Zarkov] )  so 41...Ne5 (pv e6 g7 Ne7 Rg1 Bd4+ Ke2 Bxg7 Rxg7 Nd5 Rxb7 
+85 [Zarkov] pv Ne5 Re1+ Kf5 Rxe5+ Kxg6 Rxe7 Kxh6 Rxb7 Bc3 +41 
[Zarkov] ) 

Doesn't look good, we need a reliable defense to this very tricky 
idea or we really need Bxg3! 

I will present my case for 35...Bg7 and then repost my comparisons 
later. This is the biggest 24 hours of the game: 

33. fxg3 

pv Bxg3 h6 Be5 Kg2 b4 h7 Bg7 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 Ke4 d5+ 
Ke3 -10 [Zarkov] 

Bxg3 

pv h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Bd4 Be3 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 -7 
[Zarkov] 1.17 billion nodes 

34. h6 Be5 35. h7 

Bf6 big threat! (GM Chess) 

35...Bg7! (CCTeam worked on by /Suttles/BMcC) 

(pv Rb1 b4 Bd2 Kf7 Bxb4 Kg6 Bd2 Kxh7 Rxb7 -15 [Zarkov] ) 

36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. Rh3 

(39 Kc4 40. Bd2 Nd4 41. Kf2 pv b5 Rh7 Nf5 Rf7 e6 Rc7+ Kb3 Ke2 d5 -40 
[Zarkov] pv b5 Rh7 b3 Rxe7 b2 Re1 Nb3 Ke3 Nc1 Rxc1+ bxc1 Bxc1 d5 -28 
[Zarkov] 

39. Kf2 pv b3 Rh1 Kd4 Rb1 Kc3 Ke3 Kc2 Rh1 -39 [Zarkov] 2 mill) 

OK Here's the new start of the "main line Bg3" 

36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. Kf1 b3 

36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. Kf1 b3 (then ran: 

pv Bc1 Kc4 Bb2 Kd3 Rh3+ Kc2 Rh2+ Kb1 Bc3 Kc1 Bb2+ Kd1 -40 [Zarkov] 2 
million Rh2 seems forced, Ke2 maybe? but it stops quick, and goes 
back to rh2 ) 

40. Rh2 Kc4 (pv Rf2 e6 Rd2 Nd4 Kf2 d5 Ke3 Nf5+ Ke2 -78 [Zarkov] 2 
mill pv Rh4+ Kd3 Rh3+ Kc2 Rh2+ Kb1 Re2 e5 Kf2 -61 [Zarkov] 

Zarkov is ready to call it a day for white, it is convinced white is 
worse, with black he is not as quick to shake: ) 

41. Ke1 (pv Nd4 Kd1 Nf3 Rh5 e5 Bc1 Kd3 Rh7 b5 -81 [Zarkov] 1.5 mill 
pv Nd4 Kd1 Nf3 Rg2 Nxg5 Rxg5 e6 Kc1 -79 [Zarkov] did we look at Nd4? 
probably transposes since nf3 is coming ) 

Nd4 (pv Rh4+ Kb5 Ke2 e6 Bc1 b6 Rh6 Nc6 Bb2 -19 [Zarkov] 3 mill Zark 
is still wishin on a rook perp, of course that makes no sense, but 
what else? the pawns are coming! Kb5 seems too optomistic though, we 
could take this rook perp at will. ) 

42. Kd1 Nf3 (Rh5 only candidate after 2 secs of Rg2 ) 

43. Rh5 e5 

(e5 no brainer, unless we lose e5 is in, ) 

44. Bc1 

(pv d5 Rh7 b6 Rc7+ Kd3 Rb7 Nd4 Rxb6 e4 -31 [Zarkov] Bc1 only 
candidate! ) 

d5 (pv Rh7 b6 Rc7+ Kb4 Ke2 Nd4+ Kd2 Nf5 Bb2 e4 Rd7 Kc4 Rc7+ Kb5 -10 
[Zarkov] 2 mill pv Rh7 b6 Rc7+ Kb4 Bb2 e4 Rc6 Kb5 Rd6 Kc5 Ba3+ Kc4 
Rxb6 -12 [Zarkov] ) 

45. Bb2 d4 (pv Rh7 b5 Ke2 e4 Rc7+ Kd5 Rd7+ Kc5 Re7 d3+ Kd1 Kd5 -41 
[Zarkov] 

Last chance for Rh7 it seems, ) 

46. Ke2 e4 who can argue we aren't fine here? Absolutey not Zarkov, 
he is ready to run away and try again before coughing up a 1/2. With 
4 pawns who can blame them. I onced helped Jay Bonin analyze an 
adjournment with Walter Browne, 4 pawns vs rook and it took exact 
play for the rook to hold. The game ended in a draw, but our knight 
adds dynamic chances to counter a doubled button. 

Zarkov gives up on Rh7 fast :pv Rh8 b5 Rc8+ Kd5 Rd8+ Kc5 Re8 d3+ Ke3 
d2 Ke2 Kd5 Rd8+ Kc4 Rxd2 Nxd2 Kxd2 -13 [Zarkov] 2 mill 

47 Ng1+ The king can go to f2, but must it seems forced he must 
return when we do Nf3 

This is the 1st line the entire game where every line is rated better 
for black ! 

By far our biggest pressing need is deciding whether to play ..b4 or 
Bxg3 in the g3 line. 

Status of the new ideas from 8/21 on 8/24: 

(Kf2 line still problems (see above) 1) "32.g3 fg 33.fg b4.34.Kf2 
b3 35.Bd2 b2 36.g4 Na7 (FAQ/Spy49) 37.Ke3!! (Fireman/Amann) and we 
can't find a draw.The closest we can come is 37... Nb5 38.Bb4 Nc7 
39.Kd3 Nd5 40.Ba3 Nf6 41.Rg1 Ke3 is a subtle move here - as shown by 
comparing: 37.Ke3 Nb5 38.Bb4 Bc3 39.Bxc3 Nxc3 40.h6 to the FAQ which 
has played g5 instead of h6 here and there Black is OK." (Amann) 
so Kf5 was suggested: 

(Kf5 still on shelf, Kd5 now) 2) I tried Kf5 too and flunked it. 
White just continues the Kd3/Bc3 plan: 34.Kf2 Kf5 35.Bd2 Kg4 (b3 
36.Ke3+ Kg5 37.Rh1 b2 38.Kd3+ is similar - White keeps the Black K 
away from g6) 36.h6 b3 37.h7 b2 38.Ke3 Kxg3 39.Kd3 Bh8 40.Bc3 e5 
41.Bxb2 and White should win.(Amann) 

(bye bye Kf5) 3) Then a new main line was suggested: Fritz 5.32 
sez:" ...but I think I have an important  correction. Here is the 
FAQ Main Line: 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Kf2 b3 What I suggest is 
34...Kf5. That line in the FAQ I believe is flawed. Here is that 
line: 34.Kf2 Kf5 35.Be3 Kg4 36.h6 Bxg3+ <-----Here is my biggest 
disagreement 37.Ke2 Be5 38.h7 Nd4+ 39.Bxd4 Bxd4 40.Rf8 +- (I score 
this as +2.19/13) Here is what I suggest: 36...b3 37.h7 b2 38.Ke2 Bh8 
Now, further analysis needs to be done. I see that White's best  
choices are 39.Kd2 (+0.06/12) or 39.Rf4+ (0.00/12) " and he 
further adds: 

(this line and Bf4 are the top 2 still) ) 4) 32.g3 fxg333.fxg3 
b434.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2 I score this as even, BUT what if Garry 
plays:35.Bf4 I score this as +/-35...Bh8 36.g4 b237.g5 Nb4 +/- 
(+0.34/11)Perhaps my 34...Kf5 is best after all! Fritz 5.32 sez  

5) (Kf5 scored +38 on the tablebases, but Kf1 not a problem anymore 
in Kd5 line) Bg7 was "refuted by the move Kf1 after we play Kd5 
in the main line, I am suggesting Kf5!? and hope the table base work 
will answer this unusual looking move designed to avoid check: 29. h5 
Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 Bxg3 (pv h6 Be5 
h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Bd4 Be3 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 -7 [Zarkov] 1.17 
billion nodes ) 34. h6 Be5 35. h7 (Bf6 big threat! GM Chess) Bg7! (pv 
Rb1 b4 Bd2 Kf7 Bxb4 Kg6 Bd2 Kxh7 Rxb7 -15 [Zarkov] ) 36. Rf8 b4 37. 
h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kf5 (if Kd5 Kf1 FAQ) and pv Bxb4 Kg6 Ba3 b5 Rxb5 
Nd4 Rb7 Nf5 Ke2 Kxh7 Kd3 Kg6 +7 [Zarkov] or 40.Bxb4 Kg6 41.Bd2 Kxh7 
42.Rxb7 Bf6 43.Ke2 Ne5 44.Be3 5 mill and finally it settled on pv Bc1 
d5 Kf2 Ke4 Rh4+ Kd3 Rh7 Kc2 Bg5 -51 [Zarkov]  so 39. Bc1 d5 40. Kf2 
Ke4 41. Rh4+ Kd3 and black look prepared to ram his pawns home! 

6) (My idea was used a move earlier by CC Team to correct this line, 
black good) An error to the main line of CC Team 35...Bg7? I was sent 
an intersting e mail: ...line B1c1 after 39...Bh8 Black lose...: 
B1c1)(30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5   
35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1 Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 ) After: 39...Bh8 
40. Bxb4 b5 41. Bc3! Nd4 42. Bxd4 Bxd4 43. Rxb5 wins Best HC BSB so I 
am trying Kf7 which watches the h pawn instead of killing time with 
bh8: my line is 39...Kf7! (BMcC) pv Bxb4 Kg6 Ba3 b5 Rxb5 Nd4 Rb7 Nf5 
Ke2 Kxh7 Kd3 Kg6 +7 [Zarkov]or 40.Bxb4 Kg6 41.Bd2 Kxh7 42.Rxb7 Bf6 
43.Ke2 Ne5 44.Be3 and we are ok it seems, but it was just a quick 
run, needs more work. 

7) (Bingo) The CC Team made a clean improvement on the f4 idea: 
Richard Bean A cct discovery - still not in the FAQ 33. f4 Bd4+ 34. 
Kg2 b4 35. Kxg3 b3 36. f5+ Kf7 37. h6 b2 38. h7 Kg7 39. Rh1 Kh8 40. 
Kf3 d5 41. Ke2 b5 42. Kd3 Be5 43. Ke3 b4 44. Kd3 is the main line 
(+0.14 for Black) 

8) ( Dead) If its drawable , its beyond man and comp now) What 
happened to the Bh8 main line? As per IM2429: 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g4 
fxg3 33. fxg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35. h7 Bh8 36. Rf8 Ne5 (pv Kf2 Nf7 Bd2 
Be5 Rb8 b6 Be3 Kd5 Rxb6 +30 [Zarkov] ) 37. Rxh8 Nf3+ 38. Kf2 Nxg5 39. 
Ke3 b4 40. Kf4 b3 41. Kxg5 b2 42. Rf8 b1=Q 43. h8=Q Qg1+ 44.Kf4! Qf2+ 
45.Ke2 Qe4+ 46.Kd2 Qb2+ (BMcC) (the Faq gave the weaker Qd2) 47. Kc4 
b5+ 48. Kd3 Qb1+  48.Kd2 Qa2+ 49.Ke3 Qa3+ 50.Kf2 Qc5+ 51.Kg2 and now: 
51...Qd5+ 52.Rf3! 51...Qc2+ 52.Kg3 Qd3+ 53.Rf3 Qg6+ 54.Kh2 Qc2+ 
55.Kh3 51...Qg5+ 52.Kf3 Qd5+ 53.Ke3 and now: 53...Qb3+ 54.Kf2 Qc2+ 
55.Kg3 Qd3+ 56.Rf3 etc. 53...Qg5+ 54.Rf4 and now: 54...Qg3+ 55.Rf3 
Qe1+ 56.Kf4 and eventually white stops the black checks or 54...Qg1+ 
55.Rf2 Qg5+ 56.Ke2 and allso here the black checks seems  to 
stop" Zarkov likes 56.Kg3 Qg6+ 57.Kf4 Qg2 58.Ke3 Qg3+ 59.Ke4 d5+ 
60.Kd4 Qg1+ 61.Kc3 Qa1+ 62.Kc2 Qxh8 63.Rxh8 Of course Qa2 is an 
option Even if the checks are stopped, does it mean the ending is 
lost? All very mind boggling! 

9) Faq fixed sort ot, we don't lose but they avoided Kf3 independent 
line and are looking at it now after it was recommended by GM 
Suttles) Last and absolutely not last! The FAQ outline contradicts 
itself, suggesting 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 b4 34 Bf4 Bh8 
and gives a transposition to 34 g4 b3 35 Bf4 Bd4+ and now says Bh8 
loses to g5! Smartchess Online. They responded that they missed 
updating that and would correct, I would think this means Bd4+ at 
move 34, but can white try anything else besides g4, especially since 
Bishop is protecting pawn now. I tried Kf3 and it seems to get some 
edge, but not convincing yet: 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 b4 
34 Bf4 Bd4+ 35 Kg2 b3 36 Kf3!? pv d5 g4 Ne5+ Bxe5 Kxe5 Rd1 b2 Rh1 Kf6 
h6 Kg6 h7 +27 [Zarkov] or 36...d5 37.g4 Ne5+ 38.Bxe5 Kxe5 39.Ke2 Ke4 
40.g5 b2 41.Rb1 e5 +24 at 10 million nodes. 

Comapre and contrast: CC Team, suggests we compare : 33.fxg3 b4 rb 
34.g4 34...b3 35.Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 b2 38.Kf3 Bc3 39.g5 e5 
40.Be3 Ne7 41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5 17 +0.58 12h crafty 16.15 
personally I find it hard to believe that black is holding this  with 
33.fxg3 rb 33...Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Bh6 Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Bg5 
Bg7 39.Bh6 Bd4 full 16 0.00 45min crafty 16.16 I just thought I'd put 
this in here... you need to compare the pos after b4 (+0.58) to the 
pos after Bxg3 h6 

MAIN LINE: Garry has entered the old main line, first appearing at 
the computer chess club site on 8/10/99. After having played out the 
pawn race in a mock game, I feel confident in black's position. The 
computer evaluations have been steadily improving since the key Bd4 
juncture. IM Orlov feels black is better and said if Kasparov doesn't 
make a draw he will be playing for the loss! To underline just how 
...e6 fit in that exact position  Qf8-f5, ...e6 played now is rated 
at +350! 

We are left with  a queenless the pawn race. We sealed off his queen 
and bishop with ...f4 to queen our pawn and discourage queen trades 
that bring bad technical endings! Did we succeed? It looks that way 
so far! 

A) 32.g3 fxg3 33 f4 (this tricky try gets met by more tricks) Kf5 
(Bd4+ =)34. Kg2 Bd4 (Rh1 b4 h6 b3 h7 b2 Kh3 d5 Kxg3 Bh8 -16 [Zarkov]) 
35 h6 b4 36 Rd1!? (Ross Amann 36. Rf3?! Bh8 Rb3 (chessmasterone 
Rxg3=) and d5 or 37...e5 38.Kxg3 e4 39.Rb1 d5 40.Kf2 d4 41.Ke2 Kg6 
42.Rb3 b5 -56 10 million nodes Zarkov) this position has been 
discussed by the BBS and the best line is not clear, but it seems we 
are equal  as per Zark:) 36...Bh8 37.Rd5+ e5 38.Kxg3 b3 39.Rxd6 b2 
40.Rd1 Nd4 41.Kf2 exf4 42.Bd8 Be5 -26 at 31 million nodes Zarkov 

B2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3) b4 34. Rb1 Bxg3 
35.Bd2 Kf5 36.Bxb4 Kg5 37.Kg2 Be5 38.Bd2+ Kxh5 39.Rxb7 d5 -20 CC Club 

B2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34. Kf2 b3 
(34...Kf5 35.Bf4 Bf6 36.Kf3 Nd4+ 15/31 +.23 5h Hiarcs 7.32 TM ) 
35.Bf4 b2 35.Bxe5 Nxe5 36.Ke2 Ng4 37.Rb1Nf6 38. Rxb1Nxh5 10/13 +0.13 
20 hours CM6000 Pentium 133Mhz selective search 6 Raimondo D'Ambrosio 
Smart FAQ 8/18 Line F2 

B2a1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34.g4 (rb) b3 
35.Bf4 (Bc3 (35...Bd4+ 36. Kg2 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. h6 Nd3 39. Kf3 Kf5 
40. Bd2 Nc1 41. Rxc1 bxc1=Q 42. Bxc1 Kg6 +0.23 13h crafty ) 36. g5 
Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 41. g7 Bxg7 42. 
hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 13h crafty 16.15 
tablebases would probably solve that last position; TB says draw -jb 

B2a2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3) 
35.h6 b3 (12/13 +0.20 3hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 
333Mhz CM6k first gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (+0.08) (then it changed line Raimondo D'Ambrosio) 

B2b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 ) Bd4+ 
35.Kg2 b3 36. g4 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. Bd2 Nd3 39. Rb1 Ne5 40. g6 Nc4 41. 
Bb4 Kf5 42. Rh1 Ne3+ 43. Kg3 Nc2 18 +0.40 7h crafty 16.15/solaris 
w/TB end pos. -0.37 @ 14ply jb 

B2b1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 jb 
34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. g4 ) 36...Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 
Kc4 16 +0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris see below 

B2b2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 ) 34. g4 b3 
35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 (37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 Kc4 16 
+0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris) b2 38.Kf3 Bc3 39.g5 e5 40.Be3 Ne7 
41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5 17 +0.58 12h crafty 16.15 
"personally I find it hard to believe that black is holding this 
" rb. 

B2b2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 b3 
35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 )36. ... b2 37.Kf3 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 Depth 12/14 
+0.18 (White) 53 hrs @ 10:30 PM PST 8/19 (400MHz) CM6K Smart FAQ 8/18 
Line F2b2. CM6K switched from 33...Bxg3 to 33...b4 after thirty-some 
hours.) 

B2b3) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.g4 b3) 
35.Bf4 Bc3 36. g5 Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 
41. g7 Bxg7 42. hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 
13h crafty 16.15 rb tablebases would probably solve that last 
position; TB says draw -jb 

C1) The FAQ Main line earlier in the week 33 fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 (the threat of Bf6 was found on the BBS a week ago and 
temporarily sidelined the entire Bg3 idea) Bh8?! 36.Rf8 Ne5 37.Rxh8 
(! GM School) Nf3+ 38.Kf2 Nxg5 39.Ke3 [(! 39.Kg3? Ne4+ 40.Kf4 Nf6 
41.Kg5 b5! 42.Kg6 Kd5! 43.Rb8 Nxh7 =GM Chess)39...b4 (39...Ke5? 
40.Re8! +-)  40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 b1Q 43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 
45.Kg7 ( this line is not at all forced as pointed out by Otto ter 
Harr and Paul Cornelius on the BBS. Qg2+  Kh7 and not Qe4?? but 
46...Qh3+! 47. Kg8 (or perp) Qxh8+ and the white king ends up on h8 
instead of g7. Qg3 of the FAQ transposes)  45...Qg3 46. Kh7 Qh4+ 47. 
Kg8 Qxh8 48. Qxh8 d5 49. Kg7 Ke5 50. Kf7 d4 51. Ke7 d3 52. Rd8 Ke4 
53. Kd6 d2  54. Kc5 Ke3  55. Kc4 Ke2= 

C2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3) 33.fxg3 Bxg3 (Can we reall 
do this?) 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7! 36.Rf8 b4 37. Rf3 (what?! rb) Ne5 38. 
Rg3 Bh8 full 14 -0.06 21min crafty 16.15 ("can white win!? we can 
always play 33...b4, of course" rb ) 

C2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 ) 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 38...Kd5 39. Kf2 b3 40. 
Bc1 e5 41. Rh1 b5 42. Rd1+ Kc5 43. Be3+ Kb4 44. Bc1 Nd4 45. Bb2 Kc4 
46. Rc1+ Kd5 47.Rd1 Kc5 48. Bxd4+ exd4 49. Rc1+ Kd5 50. Kf3 full 18 
-0.08 13h crafty 16.13 (who knows... rb) 

C2b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7) 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1 Ne5 38.Rb3 Kf7!+ 

C2c) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7!) 36.Bh6 (R.Bean CC Team) This needs to be checked, but at 
57 million nodes; 36...Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bh8 39.Rf8 Be5 40.Bf4 
Bd4 41.Be3 Bc3 42.Kf3 Ne5+ 43.Ke2 Nf7 -19 Zarkov 

C2d) The old main line:  33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 
37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 rb 38...Kd5 39. Kf2 b3 40. Bc1 e5 41. Rh1 b5 42. 
Rd1+ Kc5 43. Be3+ Kb4 44. Bc1 Nd4 45. Bb2 Kc4 46. Rc1+ Kd5 47.Rd1 Kc5 
48. Bxd4+ exd4 49. Rc1+ Kd5 50. Kf3 full 18 -0.08 13h crafty 16.13 
who knows... 

C2d1) (33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 
38.Rxh8 Kd5 rb 39.Kf2 )39...b3 40. Bc1 e5 41. Rh1 Na5 42. Ba3 Nc4 43. 
Bb4 b2 44. Bc3 e4 45. Rb1 e3+ 46. Ke2 Ke4 47. Bxb2 d5 48. Bf6 b6 18 
-0.07 27h crafty 16.15 

C2d2) 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 
b3 rb 39.Bc1 Kd5 40. Rh3 Kc4 41. Bb2 d5 42. Rc3+ Kb4 43. Rc1 d4 44. 
Kf2 e5 45. Kf3 Kb5 46. Ke4 Kb6 47. Rc4 Kc7 48. Rc1 full 18 -0.05 
>30h crafty 16.15 this too is a draw; b3 looks ok! 

C2d3) The reason Smartchess gave up line in its improved version: 
(33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 
39.Kf1 b3 40. Bc1 Na5 41. Rh3 e5 42. Ke2 b5 43. Kd3 b4 44. Rh4 Kc5 
full 16 -0.28 ~16h crafty 16.15 will hardly convince irina now... 
" CC Team" rb 

Conclusion: Bxg3 and b4 seem to hold, but I believe more potential 
beyond the horizon dangers lay in 2 passers than 4 pawms vs rook, 
espacially since GM Henley has demonstrtaed how to draw without both 
b pawns , if our king gets to d3. It would be nice to know which is 
our best play, but time is running out. Garri has left the most 
analyzed line in the most analyzed game, only to go to one of the 
next most analyzed comtinuation. We need a complete line vs 32 g3 and 
the outlook remains positive. 

(Computer Chess Club) 
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?method=reportRows&listname=computergang&tbl
=1&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&start_at=0&prntRpt=1 

Thanks to everyone on the Compter Chess Team! 

http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html 


Kasparov proclaims game "the most complicated and analyzed game 
in the history of chess," Wall Street Journal 8/12/99 "It's 
quite annoying from my point of view because if I do a second-quality 
move in this game, there's just no way out." Does he mean 16. 
a4?! 

The game so far: 

[Site "Microsoft Gaming Zone"] 

[White "Kasparov, G."] 

[Black "The World"] 

[ECO "B52"] 

[EventDate "1999.??.??"] 

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. 
O-O g6 8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Bg7 10. Nde2 Qe6 {N (Krush) The "World 
Variation"} 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Nc7+ Kd7 13. Nxa8 Qxc4 14. Nb6+ axb6 
15. Nc3 Ra8 {(Speelman)} 16. a4 16... Ne4 17. Nxe4 17... Qxe4 18. Qb3 
18... f5 (GM School - Khalifman)} 19. Bg5 19... Qb4 {(Jason Van 
Eaton)} 20. Qf7 Be5 {(Brian McCarthy)} 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. 
Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7  Bd4 26. Qb3 f4 {{Yasha}}27. Qf7 Be5 
28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. g3 fg3 (above designations as 
given by analyst US Women's champion Irina Krush: 
www.smartchess.com): 

World Annoys Kasparov!     World Bluffs Kasparov!?  9 New, Critical 
Ideas! 

35...Bg7 is the 1st main line to be all better for black!! I like 
that in a game! 
Other supporters of Bxg3 include GM Duncan Suttles and Computer Chess 
Team. 

Outline 8/23/99 Predicting   32. fg3 Score of Predictions so far 18-1 
(Qf5+?!) 

Recommending: 33. fg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35 h7 Bg7 36 Rf8 b4! 37. h8(Q) 
Bxh8 "CM finds 35...Bg7! after 75 hours and switches from 33...b4 
back to 33...Bxg3. " CC Team. It is based on a bishop sacrifice 
that need clarifying, but the 4 pawns for a rook it brings seems to 
be best and is holding up well. 

Developments! Smartchess and GM Chess both support b4 today but it is 
not scoring too well against a couple of moves and GM Suttles has 
agreed with an earlier post I made concerning Bf4 and Kf3 +26. People 
may ask if I was the person who's name is attached to Be5, how could 
I send him to the sidelines, dying a brutal rook sac induced death? 
Simple, Chess is the game of Kings! I see no reason to forfeit a 
chance to end the game favorably for murky play with 4 lines in need 
of work, hopefully we can reach an agreement based on an intellectual 
discussion, Irina is making a good effort to examine all 
possibilities and her presence on the BBS add hope to a successful 
solution. 

The trickiest try for Kasparov in the b4 lines seems to be giving 
bishop for b pawn and then trying to queen passers: In a line asked 
to be reviewed by GM Henley: 33. fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 Kd5 35. g4 b3 36. 
Bd2 Ke4 37. g5 Kd3 38. Bc1 b2 39. Bxb2 Bxb2 40. Rb1 (probably not 
better than h6 see below) Bd4+ 41. Kf3 b6 42. Rd1+ Kc4 43. h6 Ne5+ 
44. Ke4 d5+ 45. Kf5 Nf7 nope loses easy: pv Rxd4+ Kxd4 h7 Nh8 g6 e6+ 
Kf6 Nxg6 Kxg6 b5 h8+ e5 +451 [Zarkov] 

fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 Kd5 35. g4 b3 36. Bd2 Ke4 37. g5 Kd3 38. Bc1 b2 39. 
Bxb2 Bxb2 40. h6 Ke4 41. g6 (pv e6 g7 Ne7 Rg1 Bd4+ Ke2 Bxg7 Rxg7 Nd5 
Rxb7 +85 [Zarkov] pv Ne5 Re1+ Kf5 Rxe5+ Kxg6 Rxe7 Kxh6 Rxb7 Bc3 +41 
[Zarkov] )  so 41...Ne5 (pv e6 g7 Ne7 Rg1 Bd4+ Ke2 Bxg7 Rxg7 Nd5 Rxb7 
+85 [Zarkov] pv Ne5 Re1+ Kf5 Rxe5+ Kxg6 Rxe7 Kxh6 Rxb7 Bc3 +41 
[Zarkov] ) 

Doesn't look good, we need a reliable defense to this very tricky 
idea or we really need Bxg3! 

I will present my case for 35...Bg7 and then repost my comparisons 
later. This is the biggest 24 hours of the game: 

33. fxg3 

pv Bxg3 h6 Be5 Kg2 b4 h7 Bg7 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 Ke4 d5+ 
Ke3 -10 [Zarkov] 

Bxg3 

pv h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Bd4 Be3 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 -7 
[Zarkov] 1.17 billion nodes 

34. h6 Be5 35. h7 

Bf6 big threat! (GM Chess) 

35...Bg7! (CCTeam worked on by /Suttles/BMcC) 

(pv Rb1 b4 Bd2 Kf7 Bxb4 Kg6 Bd2 Kxh7 Rxb7 -15 [Zarkov] ) 

36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. Rh3 

(39 Kc4 40. Bd2 Nd4 41. Kf2 pv b5 Rh7 Nf5 Rf7 e6 Rc7+ Kb3 Ke2 d5 -40 
[Zarkov] pv b5 Rh7 b3 Rxe7 b2 Re1 Nb3 Ke3 Nc1 Rxc1+ bxc1 Bxc1 d5 -28 
[Zarkov] 

39. Kf2 pv b3 Rh1 Kd4 Rb1 Kc3 Ke3 Kc2 Rh1 -39 [Zarkov] 2 mill) 

OK Here's the new start of the "main line Bg3" 

36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. Kf1 b3 

36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kd5 39. Kf1 b3 (then ran: 

pv Bc1 Kc4 Bb2 Kd3 Rh3+ Kc2 Rh2+ Kb1 Bc3 Kc1 Bb2+ Kd1 -40 [Zarkov] 2 
million Rh2 seems forced, Ke2 maybe? but it stops quick, and goes 
back to rh2 ) 

40. Rh2 Kc4 (pv Rf2 e6 Rd2 Nd4 Kf2 d5 Ke3 Nf5+ Ke2 -78 [Zarkov] 2 
mill pv Rh4+ Kd3 Rh3+ Kc2 Rh2+ Kb1 Re2 e5 Kf2 -61 [Zarkov] 

Zarkov is ready to call it a day for white, it is convinced white is 
worse, with black he is not as quick to shake: ) 

41. Ke1 (pv Nd4 Kd1 Nf3 Rh5 e5 Bc1 Kd3 Rh7 b5 -81 [Zarkov] 1.5 mill 
pv Nd4 Kd1 Nf3 Rg2 Nxg5 Rxg5 e6 Kc1 -79 [Zarkov] did we look at Nd4? 
probably transposes since nf3 is coming ) 

Nd4 (pv Rh4+ Kb5 Ke2 e6 Bc1 b6 Rh6 Nc6 Bb2 -19 [Zarkov] 3 mill Zark 
is still wishin on a rook perp, of course that makes no sense, but 
what else? the pawns are coming! Kb5 seems too optomistic though, we 
could take this rook perp at will. ) 

42. Kd1 Nf3 (Rh5 only candidate after 2 secs of Rg2 ) 

43. Rh5 e5 

(e5 no brainer, unless we lose e5 is in, ) 

44. Bc1 

(pv d5 Rh7 b6 Rc7+ Kd3 Rb7 Nd4 Rxb6 e4 -31 [Zarkov] Bc1 only 
candidate! ) 

d5 (pv Rh7 b6 Rc7+ Kb4 Ke2 Nd4+ Kd2 Nf5 Bb2 e4 Rd7 Kc4 Rc7+ Kb5 -10 
[Zarkov] 2 mill pv Rh7 b6 Rc7+ Kb4 Bb2 e4 Rc6 Kb5 Rd6 Kc5 Ba3+ Kc4 
Rxb6 -12 [Zarkov] ) 

45. Bb2 d4 (pv Rh7 b5 Ke2 e4 Rc7+ Kd5 Rd7+ Kc5 Re7 d3+ Kd1 Kd5 -41 
[Zarkov] 

Last chance for Rh7 it seems, ) 

46. Ke2 e4 who can argue we aren't fine here? Absolutey not Zarkov, 
he is ready to run away and try again before coughing up a 1/2. With 
4 pawns who can blame them. I onced helped Jay Bonin analyze an 
adjournment with Walter Browne, 4 pawns vs rook and it took exact 
play for the rook to hold. The game ended in a draw, but our knight 
adds dynamic chances to counter a doubled button. 

Zarkov gives up on Rh7 fast :pv Rh8 b5 Rc8+ Kd5 Rd8+ Kc5 Re8 d3+ Ke3 
d2 Ke2 Kd5 Rd8+ Kc4 Rxd2 Nxd2 Kxd2 -13 [Zarkov] 2 mill 

47 Ng1+ The king can go to f2, but must it seems forced he must 
return when we do Nf3 

This is the 1st line the entire game where every line is rated better 
for black ! 

By far our biggest pressing need is deciding whether to play ..b4 or 
Bxg3 in the g3 line. 

Status of the new ideas from 8/21 on 8/24: 

(Kf2 line still problems (see above) 1) "32.g3 fg 33.fg b4.34.Kf2 
b3 35.Bd2 b2 36.g4 Na7 (FAQ/Spy49) 37.Ke3!! (Fireman/Amann) and we 
can't find a draw.The closest we can come is 37... Nb5 38.Bb4 Nc7 
39.Kd3 Nd5 40.Ba3 Nf6 41.Rg1 Ke3 is a subtle move here - as shown by 
comparing: 37.Ke3 Nb5 38.Bb4 Bc3 39.Bxc3 Nxc3 40.h6 to the FAQ which 
has played g5 instead of h6 here and there Black is OK." (Amann) 
so Kf5 was suggested: 

(Kf5 still on shelf, Kd5 now) 2) I tried Kf5 too and flunked it. 
White just continues the Kd3/Bc3 plan: 34.Kf2 Kf5 35.Bd2 Kg4 (b3 
36.Ke3+ Kg5 37.Rh1 b2 38.Kd3+ is similar - White keeps the Black K 
away from g6) 36.h6 b3 37.h7 b2 38.Ke3 Kxg3 39.Kd3 Bh8 40.Bc3 e5 
41.Bxb2 and White should win.(Amann) 

(bye bye Kf5) 3) Then a new main line was suggested: Fritz 5.32 
sez:" ...but I think I have an important  correction. Here is the 
FAQ Main Line: 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Kf2 b3 What I suggest is 
34...Kf5. That line in the FAQ I believe is flawed. Here is that 
line: 34.Kf2 Kf5 35.Be3 Kg4 36.h6 Bxg3+ <-----Here is my biggest 
disagreement 37.Ke2 Be5 38.h7 Nd4+ 39.Bxd4 Bxd4 40.Rf8 +- (I score 
this as +2.19/13) Here is what I suggest: 36...b3 37.h7 b2 38.Ke2 Bh8 
Now, further analysis needs to be done. I see that White's best  
choices are 39.Kd2 (+0.06/12) or 39.Rf4+ (0.00/12) " and he 
further adds: 

(this line and Bf4 are the top 2 still) ) 4) 32.g3 fxg333.fxg3 
b434.Kf2 b3 35.Bd2 I score this as even, BUT what if Garry 
plays:35.Bf4 I score this as +/-35...Bh8 36.g4 b237.g5 Nb4 +/- 
(+0.34/11)Perhaps my 34...Kf5 is best after all! Fritz 5.32 sez  

5) (Kf5 scored +38 on the tablebases, but Kf1 not a problem anymore 
in Kd5 line) Bg7 was "refuted by the move Kf1 after we play Kd5 
in the main line, I am suggesting Kf5!? and hope the table base work 
will answer this unusual looking move designed to avoid check: 29. h5 
Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 Bxg3 (pv h6 Be5 
h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 Bh8 Rf8 Bd4 Be3 Be5 Bf4 Bg7 Kf3 b3 -7 [Zarkov] 1.17 
billion nodes ) 34. h6 Be5 35. h7 (Bf6 big threat! GM Chess) Bg7! (pv 
Rb1 b4 Bd2 Kf7 Bxb4 Kg6 Bd2 Kxh7 Rxb7 -15 [Zarkov] ) 36. Rf8 b4 37. 
h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 Kf5 (if Kd5 Kf1 FAQ) and pv Bxb4 Kg6 Ba3 b5 Rxb5 
Nd4 Rb7 Nf5 Ke2 Kxh7 Kd3 Kg6 +7 [Zarkov] or 40.Bxb4 Kg6 41.Bd2 Kxh7 
42.Rxb7 Bf6 43.Ke2 Ne5 44.Be3 5 mill and finally it settled on pv Bc1 
d5 Kf2 Ke4 Rh4+ Kd3 Rh7 Kc2 Bg5 -51 [Zarkov]  so 39. Bc1 d5 40. Kf2 
Ke4 41. Rh4+ Kd3 and black look prepared to ram his pawns home! 

6) (My idea was used a move earlier by CC Team to correct this line, 
black good) An error to the main line of CC Team 35...Bg7? I was sent 
an intersting e mail: ...line B1c1 after 39...Bh8 Black lose...: 
B1c1)(30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5   
35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1 Ne5 38.Rb3 Nc6 39.Bd2 ) After: 39...Bh8 
40. Bxb4 b5 41. Bc3! Nd4 42. Bxd4 Bxd4 43. Rxb5 wins Best HC BSB so I 
am trying Kf7 which watches the h pawn instead of killing time with 
bh8: my line is 39...Kf7! (BMcC) pv Bxb4 Kg6 Ba3 b5 Rxb5 Nd4 Rb7 Nf5 
Ke2 Kxh7 Kd3 Kg6 +7 [Zarkov]or 40.Bxb4 Kg6 41.Bd2 Kxh7 42.Rxb7 Bf6 
43.Ke2 Ne5 44.Be3 and we are ok it seems, but it was just a quick 
run, needs more work. 

7) (Bingo) The CC Team made a clean improvement on the f4 idea: 
Richard Bean A cct discovery - still not in the FAQ 33. f4 Bd4+ 34. 
Kg2 b4 35. Kxg3 b3 36. f5+ Kf7 37. h6 b2 38. h7 Kg7 39. Rh1 Kh8 40. 
Kf3 d5 41. Ke2 b5 42. Kd3 Be5 43. Ke3 b4 44. Kd3 is the main line 
(+0.14 for Black) 

8) ( Dead) If its drawable , its beyond man and comp now) What 
happened to the Bh8 main line? As per IM2429: 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g4 
fxg3 33. fxg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35. h7 Bh8 36. Rf8 Ne5 (pv Kf2 Nf7 Bd2 
Be5 Rb8 b6 Be3 Kd5 Rxb6 +30 [Zarkov] ) 37. Rxh8 Nf3+ 38. Kf2 Nxg5 39. 
Ke3 b4 40. Kf4 b3 41. Kxg5 b2 42. Rf8 b1=Q 43. h8=Q Qg1+ 44.Kf4! Qf2+ 
45.Ke2 Qe4+ 46.Kd2 Qb2+ (BMcC) (the Faq gave the weaker Qd2) 47. Kc4 
b5+ 48. Kd3 Qb1+  48.Kd2 Qa2+ 49.Ke3 Qa3+ 50.Kf2 Qc5+ 51.Kg2 and now: 
51...Qd5+ 52.Rf3! 51...Qc2+ 52.Kg3 Qd3+ 53.Rf3 Qg6+ 54.Kh2 Qc2+ 
55.Kh3 51...Qg5+ 52.Kf3 Qd5+ 53.Ke3 and now: 53...Qb3+ 54.Kf2 Qc2+ 
55.Kg3 Qd3+ 56.Rf3 etc. 53...Qg5+ 54.Rf4 and now: 54...Qg3+ 55.Rf3 
Qe1+ 56.Kf4 and eventually white stops the black checks or 54...Qg1+ 
55.Rf2 Qg5+ 56.Ke2 and allso here the black checks seems  to 
stop" Zarkov likes 56.Kg3 Qg6+ 57.Kf4 Qg2 58.Ke3 Qg3+ 59.Ke4 d5+ 
60.Kd4 Qg1+ 61.Kc3 Qa1+ 62.Kc2 Qxh8 63.Rxh8 Of course Qa2 is an 
option Even if the checks are stopped, does it mean the ending is 
lost? All very mind boggling! 

9) (Faq fixed sort ot, we don't lose but they avoided Kf3 independent 
line and are looking at it now after it was recommended by GM 
Suttles) Last and absolutely not last! The FAQ outline contradicts 
itself, suggesting 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 b4 34 Bf4 Bh8 
and gives a transposition to 34 g4 b3 35 Bf4 Bd4+ and now says Bh8 
loses to g5! Smartchess Online. They responded that they missed 
updating that and would correct, I would think this means Bd4+ at 
move 34, but can white try anything else besides g4, especially since 
Bishop is protecting pawn now. I tried Kf3 and it seems to get some 
edge, but not convincing yet: 31. Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3 b4 
34 Bf4 Bd4+ 35 Kg2 b3 36 Kf3!? pv d5 g4 Ne5+ Bxe5 Kxe5 Rd1 b2 Rh1 Kf6 
h6 Kg6 h7 +27 [Zarkov] or 36...d5 37.g4 Ne5+ 38.Bxe5 Kxe5 39.Ke2 Ke4 
40.g5 b2 41.Rb1 e5 +24 at 10 million nodes. 

Comapre and contrast: CC Team, suggests we compare : 33.fxg3 b4 rb 
34.g4 34...b3 35.Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 b2 38.Kf3 Bc3 39.g5 e5 
40.Be3 Ne7 41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5 17 +0.58 12h crafty 16.15 
personally I find it hard to believe that black is holding this  with 
33.fxg3 rb 33...Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Bh6 Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Bg5 
Bg7 39.Bh6 Bd4 full 16 0.00 45min crafty 16.16 I just thought I'd put 
this in here... you need to compare the pos after b4 (+0.58) to the 
pos after Bxg3 h6 

MAIN LINE: Garry has entered the old main line, first appearing at 
the computer chess club site on 8/10/99. After having played out the 
pawn race in a mock game, I feel confident in black's position. The 
computer evaluations have been steadily improving since the key Bd4 
juncture. IM Orlov feels black is better and said if Kasparov doesn't 
make a draw he will be playing for the loss! To underline just how 
...e6 fit in that exact position  Qf8-f5, ...e6 played now is rated 
at +350! 

We are left with  a queenless the pawn race. We sealed off his queen 
and bishop with ...f4 to queen our pawn and discourage queen trades 
that bring bad technical endings! Did we succeed? It looks that way 
so far! 

A) 32.g3 fxg3 33 f4 (this tricky try gets met by more tricks) Kf5 
(Bd4+ =)34. Kg2 Bd4 (Rh1 b4 h6 b3 h7 b2 Kh3 d5 Kxg3 Bh8 -16 [Zarkov]) 
35 h6 b4 36 Rd1!? (Ross Amann 36. Rf3?! Bh8 Rb3 (chessmasterone 
Rxg3=) and d5 or 37...e5 38.Kxg3 e4 39.Rb1 d5 40.Kf2 d4 41.Ke2 Kg6 
42.Rb3 b5 -56 10 million nodes Zarkov) this position has been 
discussed by the BBS and the best line is not clear, but it seems we 
are equal  as per Zark:) 36...Bh8 37.Rd5+ e5 38.Kxg3 b3 39.Rxd6 b2 
40.Rd1 Nd4 41.Kf2 exf4 42.Bd8 Be5 -26 at 31 million nodes Zarkov 

B2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33. fxg3) b4 34. Rb1 Bxg3 
35.Bd2 Kf5 36.Bxb4 Kg5 37.Kg2 Be5 38.Bd2+ Kxh5 39.Rxb7 d5 -20 CC Club 

B2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32. g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34. Kf2 b3 
(34...Kf5 35.Bf4 Bf6 36.Kf3 Nd4+ 15/31 +.23 5h Hiarcs 7.32 TM ) 
35.Bf4 b2 35.Bxe5 Nxe5 36.Ke2 Ng4 37.Rb1Nf6 38. Rxb1Nxh5 10/13 +0.13 
20 hours CM6000 Pentium 133Mhz selective search 6 Raimondo D'Ambrosio 
Smart FAQ 8/18 Line F2 

B2a1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4) 34.g4 (rb) b3 
35.Bf4 (Bc3 (35...Bd4+ 36. Kg2 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. h6 Nd3 39. Kf3 Kf5 
40. Bd2 Nc1 41. Rxc1 bxc1=Q 42. Bxc1 Kg6 +0.23 13h crafty ) 36. g5 
Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 41. g7 Bxg7 42. 
hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 13h crafty 16.15 
tablebases would probably solve that last position; TB says draw -jb 

B2a2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bc3) 
35.h6 b3 (12/13 +0.20 3hours -ongoing analysis CM6000 Pentium II 
333Mhz CM6k first gave 33. .. Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bh8 36.Rc8 Ne5 Bd2 
Nc4 Bb4+ Kf1 (+0.08) (then it changed line Raimondo D'Ambrosio) 

B2b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 ) Bd4+ 
35.Kg2 b3 36. g4 b2 37. g5 Nb4 38. Bd2 Nd3 39. Rb1 Ne5 40. g6 Nc4 41. 
Bb4 Kf5 42. Rh1 Ne3+ 43. Kg3 Nc2 18 +0.40 7h crafty 16.15/solaris 
w/TB end pos. -0.37 @ 14ply jb 

B2b1) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 jb 
34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. g4 ) 36...Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 
Kc4 16 +0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris see below 

B2b2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 ) 34. g4 b3 
35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 Kd5 37.h6 (37. g5 e5 38. Bd2 e4 39. Rd1 Kc4 16 
+0.74 7h crafty 16.15/solaris) b2 38.Kf3 Bc3 39.g5 e5 40.Be3 Ne7 
41.Rd1+ Kc4 42.Rb1 Ng6 43.Ke4 b5 17 +0.58 12h crafty 16.15 
"personally I find it hard to believe that black is holding this 
" rb. 

B2b2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qe6+ Ke6 32. g3/4 fg3 33. fg3 b4 34. g4 b3 
35. Bf4 Bd4+ 36.Kg2 )36. ... b2 37.Kf3 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 Depth 12/14 
+0.18 (White) 53 hrs @ 10:30 PM PST 8/19 (400MHz) CM6K Smart FAQ 8/18 
Line F2b2. CM6K switched from 33...Bxg3 to 33...b4 after thirty-some 
hours.) 

B2b3) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 b4 34.g4 b3) 
35.Bf4 Bc3 36. g5 Nd4 37.g6 Ne2+ 38. Kh1 b2 39. h6 b1=Q 40. Rxb1 Nxf4 
41. g7 Bxg7 42. hxg7 Kf7 43. Rxb7 Kxg7 44. Rxe7+ Kf6 full 16 +0.55 
13h crafty 16.15 rb tablebases would probably solve that last 
position; TB says draw -jb 

C1) The FAQ Main line earlier in the week 33 fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 (the threat of Bf6 was found on the BBS a week ago and 
temporarily sidelined the entire Bg3 idea) Bh8?! 36.Rf8 Ne5 37.Rxh8 
(! GM School) Nf3+ 38.Kf2 Nxg5 39.Ke3 [(! 39.Kg3? Ne4+ 40.Kf4 Nf6 
41.Kg5 b5! 42.Kg6 Kd5! 43.Rb8 Nxh7 =GM Chess)39...b4 (39...Ke5? 
40.Re8! +-)  40.Kf4 b3 41.Kxg5 b2 42.Rf8 b1Q 43.h8Q Qg1+ 44.Kh6 Qh2+ 
45.Kg7 ( this line is not at all forced as pointed out by Otto ter 
Harr and Paul Cornelius on the BBS. Qg2+  Kh7 and not Qe4?? but 
46...Qh3+! 47. Kg8 (or perp) Qxh8+ and the white king ends up on h8 
instead of g7. Qg3 of the FAQ transposes)  45...Qg3 46. Kh7 Qh4+ 47. 
Kg8 Qxh8 48. Qxh8 d5 49. Kg7 Ke5 50. Kf7 d4 51. Ke7 d3 52. Rd8 Ke4 
53. Kd6 d2  54. Kc5 Ke3  55. Kc4 Ke2= 

C2) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3) 33.fxg3 Bxg3 (Can we reall 
do this?) 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7! 36.Rf8 b4 37. Rf3 (what?! rb) Ne5 38. 
Rg3 Bh8 full 14 -0.06 21min crafty 16.15 ("can white win!? we can 
always play 33...b4, of course" rb ) 

C2a) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 ) 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 38...Kd5 39. Kf2 b3 40. 
Bc1 e5 41. Rh1 b5 42. Rd1+ Kc5 43. Be3+ Kb4 44. Bc1 Nd4 45. Bb2 Kc4 
46. Rc1+ Kd5 47.Rd1 Kc5 48. Bxd4+ exd4 49. Rc1+ Kd5 50. Kf3 full 18 
-0.08 13h crafty 16.13 (who knows... rb) 

C2b) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7) 36.Rf3 b4 37.Kf1 Ne5 38.Rb3 Kf7!+ 

C2c) (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 
35.h7 Bg7!) 36.Bh6 (R.Bean CC Team) This needs to be checked, but at 
57 million nodes; 36...Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bh8 39.Rf8 Be5 40.Bf4 
Bd4 41.Be3 Bc3 42.Kf3 Ne5+ 43.Ke2 Nf7 -19 Zarkov 

C2d) The old main line:  33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 
37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 rb 38...Kd5 39. Kf2 b3 40. Bc1 e5 41. Rh1 b5 42. 
Rd1+ Kc5 43. Be3+ Kb4 44. Bc1 Nd4 45. Bb2 Kc4 46. Rc1+ Kd5 47.Rd1 Kc5 
48. Bxd4+ exd4 49. Rc1+ Kd5 50. Kf3 full 18 -0.08 13h crafty 16.13 
who knows... 

C2d1) (33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 
38.Rxh8 Kd5 rb 39.Kf2 )39...b3 40. Bc1 e5 41. Rh1 Na5 42. Ba3 Nc4 43. 
Bb4 b2 44. Bc3 e4 45. Rb1 e3+ 46. Ke2 Ke4 47. Bxb2 d5 48. Bf6 b6 18 
-0.07 27h crafty 16.15 

C2d2) 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 
b3 rb 39.Bc1 Kd5 40. Rh3 Kc4 41. Bb2 d5 42. Rc3+ Kb4 43. Rc1 d4 44. 
Kf2 e5 45. Kf3 Kb5 46. Ke4 Kb6 47. Rc4 Kc7 48. Rc1 full 18 -0.05 
>30h crafty 16.15 this too is a draw; b3 looks ok! 

C2d3) The reason Smartchess gave up line in its improved version: 
(33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 
39.Kf1 b3 40. Bc1 Na5 41. Rh3 e5 42. Ke2 b5 43. Kd3 b4 44. Rh4 Kc5 
full 16 -0.28 ~16h crafty 16.15 will hardly convince irina now... 
" CC Team" rb 

Conclusion: Bxg3 and b4 seem to hold, but I believe more potential 
beyond the horizon dangers lay in 2 passers than 4 pawms vs rook, 
espacially since GM Henley has demonstrtaed how to draw without both 
b pawns , if our king gets to d3. It would be nice to know which is 
our best play, but time is running out. Garri has left the most 
analyzed line in the most analyzed game, only to go to one of the 
next most analyzed comtinuation. We need a complete line vs 32 g3 and 
the outlook remains positive. 

(Computer Chess Club) 
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?method=reportRows&listname=computergang&tbl
=1&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&start_at=0&prntRpt=1 

Thanks to everyone on the Compter Chess Team! 

http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

Here the try is Bd4+ , I have tried the 4 most obvious legal moves, 
e6, Ne5 plan, b5 and king moves, 
this is a Bd4 + plan and knight in, they don't work well together. 

fxg3 : 

b4 34. Kf2 b3 35. Bd2 Kd5 36. g4 Ke4 37. g5 Kd3 38. Bc1 b2 39. Bxb2 
Bxb2 40. h6 Bd4+ 41. Kg3 Ne5 42. h7 Ng6 43. Kg4 Ke4 44. Kh5 Nf4+ 45. 
Rxf4+ Kxf4 46. Kh6 

pv Kf5 g6 Be3+ Kg7 b5 Kf7 Bd4 g7 Bxg7 Kxg7 Kg5 h8 +383 [Zarkov]

This is only quick and dirty analysis but it doesn't look too 
promising for black. Any comments ?

33.fxg3 Bxg3
34.h6 Be5
35.h7 Bg7
36.Bh6 Bd4+
37.Kg2 b4
38.Rf4 Ba1
39.Rf8 d5 (beware of 39...b5 probably losing)
40.Bg5 Bg7
41.Rg8 Kf7
42.Bd2 b3
43.h8Q Bxh8
44.Rxh8 Ne5 +0.32/13 Crafty 16.15

On Tue Aug 24 01:44:33, is annoying wrote:
> This is only quick and dirty analysis but it doesn't look too 
> promising for black. Any comments ?
> 
> 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> 34.h6 Be5
> 35.h7 Bg7
> 36.Bh6 

this is true but crafty 16.16 scores it as even,
I can't remember the line.  this seems to be
the only way he can vary.

I have studied all choices here for many days, as have several 
people. I think given enough time I can assess any position 
accurately. Bxg3 has undergone scrutiny like no other move. The 
latest attempt for advantage may have slight winning chances. There 
sre no winning chances if we do not take the pawn. 
   The most interesting b4 line involving Bc1 x b2 given by GM Henley 
as the current position he was looking at is indeed a testament to 
how deep Smartchess has tried to get in this ending. It is posted in 
my outline (developments section) and is quite fascinating and there 
is no way any computer can see the depth of the 2 connected passers 
at the Bxg3/b4 moment. b4 has had several hits to it and Bf4 
questions remain, especially the Kf3 line I posted earlier and GM 
Suttles bought up today. These unprecedented changes between moves 
caused the Computer Chess Teams' best scoring gets analyzed startegy 
to leave other main lines behind.
    I believe we are probably better if we take on g3 and never have 
I seen so many lines favorable to black, with b4 we are still lagging 
in the + section. 
    Garri did not play g3 with some deep grand plan, it was the only 
alternative he had to keep playing the game. This isn't poker and I 
was taught to play the most aggressive move possible unless you see a 
refutation. I do not: Bxg3!!

On Tue Aug 24 01:48:05, richard bean wrote:

Since you warned about it, besides the = crafty line, Zarkov also 
likes: 

(30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 
Bg7!) 36.Bh6 (R.Bean CC Team) This needs to be checked, but at 57 
million nodes; 36...Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bh8 39.Rf8 Be5 40.Bf4 Bd4 
41.Be3 Bc3 42.Kf3 Ne5+ 43.Ke2 Nf7 -19 Zarkov 

but 38. Be3 is an admission he has not much, it seems, of course we 
can always go to g7!

> On Tue Aug 24 01:44:33, is annoying wrote:
> > This is only quick and dirty analysis but it doesn't look too 
> > promising for black. Any comments ?
> > 
> > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > 34.h6 Be5
> > 35.h7 Bg7
> > 36.Bh6 
> 
> this is true but crafty 16.16 scores it as even,
> I can't remember the line.  this seems to be
> the only way he can vary.

On Tue Aug 24 01:56:54,

33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 rb 36.Bh6 36...Bd4+ 37. Kg2 b4 38. 
Rf4 Ba1 39. Rf8 d5 40. Bg5 Bg7 41. Rg8 Bb2 42. Bc1 Ba1 43. Ra8 Bc3 
44. h8=Q Bxh8 45. Rxh8  17 +0.02 ~33h crafty 16.15    


 BMcC what prob Bish   push b pawn , as usual wrote:
> On Tue Aug 24 01:48:05, richard bean wrote:
> 
> Since you warned about it, besides the = crafty line, Zarkov also 
> likes: 
> 
> (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 
> Bg7!) 36.Bh6 (R.Bean CC Team) This needs to be checked, but at 57 
> million nodes; 36...Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bh8 39.Rf8 Be5 40.Bf4 Bd4 
> 41.Be3 Bc3 42.Kf3 Ne5+ 43.Ke2 Nf7 -19 Zarkov 
> 
> but 38. Be3 is an admission he has not much, it seems, of course we 
> can always go to g7!
> 
> > On Tue Aug 24 01:44:33, is annoying wrote:
> > > This is only quick and dirty analysis but it doesn't look too 
> > > promising for black. Any comments ?
> > > 
> > > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > > 34.h6 Be5
> > > 35.h7 Bg7
> > > 36.Bh6 
> > 
> > this is true but crafty 16.16 scores it as even,
> > I can't remember the line.  this seems to be
> > the only way he can vary.

On Tue Aug 24 02:03:12, BMcC here's crafty line on bh6  02 wrote:
> On Tue Aug 24 01:56:54,
the line works out, but if we get to work these out, probably we can 
finesse a tempo here, but as GM Henley's idea position showed, we 
only need survive the pawn and knight position with a pawn on e3 and 
d4 with a knight on f3/g1, and most important a king to d3,e4 when 
checked out,  and we can draw here. 


> 
> 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 rb 36.Bh6 36...Bd4+ 37. Kg2 b4 38. 
> Rf4 Ba1 39. Rf8 d5 40. Bg5 Bg7 41. Rg8 Bb2 42. Bc1 Ba1 43. Ra8 Bc3 
> 44. h8=Q Bxh8 45. Rxh8  17 +0.02 ~33h crafty 16.15    
> 
> 
>  BMcC what prob Bish   push b pawn , as usual wrote:
> > On Tue Aug 24 01:48:05, richard bean wrote:
> > 
> > Since you warned about it, besides the = crafty line, Zarkov also 
> > likes: 
> > 
> > (30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6 Kxe6 32.g3 fxg3 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 
> > Bg7!) 36.Bh6 (R.Bean CC Team) This needs to be checked, but at 57 
> > million nodes; 36...Bd4+ 37.Kg2 b4 38.Be3 Bh8 39.Rf8 Be5 40.Bf4 Bd4 
> > 41.Be3 Bc3 42.Kf3 Ne5+ 43.Ke2 Nf7 -19 Zarkov 
> > 
> > but 38. Be3 is an admission he has not much, it seems, of course we 
> > can always go to g7!
> > 
> > > On Tue Aug 24 01:44:33, is annoying wrote:
> > > > This is only quick and dirty analysis but it doesn't look too 
> > > > promising for black. Any comments ?
> > > > 
> > > > 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> > > > 34.h6 Be5
> > > > 35.h7 Bg7
> > > > 36.Bh6 
> > > 
> > > this is true but crafty 16.16 scores it as even,
> > > I can't remember the line.  this seems to be
> > > the only way he can vary.

I have to say I agree.  Otherwise the g-pawn is a danger that we 
can't actually do very much about, as white has remarkable resources 
after sacrifcing the bishop for the b-pawn, especially if he keeps 
his rook on the f-file so that the king can't get to the connected 
pawns.  After 33. .. Bxg3! GK's attack is much less and we have 
winning chances...

I am wondering still about 33. f4, but can't see much in that for 
white either.  Anyone found a good line for white here??

Andy


On Tue Aug 24 01:52:32, BMcC My conclusions Don't let Garri Bluff us 
wrote:
> I have studied all choices here for many days, as have several 
> people. I think given enough time I can assess any position 
> accurately. Bxg3 has undergone scrutiny like no other move. The 
> latest attempt for advantage may have slight winning chances. There 
> sre no winning chances if we do not take the pawn. 
>    The most interesting b4 line involving Bc1 x b2 given by GM Henley 
> as the current position he was looking at is indeed a testament to 
> how deep Smartchess has tried to get in this ending. It is posted in 
> my outline (developments section) and is quite fascinating and there 
> is no way any computer can see the depth of the 2 connected passers 
> at the Bxg3/b4 moment. b4 has had several hits to it and Bf4 
> questions remain, especially the Kf3 line I posted earlier and GM 
> Suttles bought up today. These unprecedented changes between moves 
> caused the Computer Chess Teams' best scoring gets analyzed startegy 
> to leave other main lines behind.
>     I believe we are probably better if we take on g3 and never have 
> I seen so many lines favorable to black, with b4 we are still lagging 
> in the + section. 
>     Garri did not play g3 with some deep grand plan, it was the only 
> alternative he had to keep playing the game. This isn't poker and I 
> was taught to play the most aggressive move possible unless you see a 
> refutation. I do not: Bxg3!!

.
On Tue Aug 24 01:44:33, is annoying wrote:
> This is only quick and dirty analysis but it doesn't look too 
> promising for black. Any comments ?
> 
> 33.fxg3 Bxg3
> 34.h6 Be5
> 35.h7 Bg7
> 36.Bh6 Bd4+
> 37.Kg2 b4
> 38.Rf4 Ba1
> 39.Rf8 d5 (beware of 39...b5 probably losing)
> 40.Bg5 Bg7
> 41.Rg8 Kf7
> 42.Bd2 b3
> 43.h8Q Bxh8
> 44.Rxh8 Ne5 +0.32/13 Crafty 16.15

33.fxg3 b4 34.Kf2 b3 35.g4 Kd5 36.Bd2 Ke4
37.g5 Kd3 38.Bc1 b2 39.Bxb2 Bxb2

and now currently 40.Kg2 is showing +0.34
for White.

but it is going up.  pv at 15 ply:

40. Kg2 Ne5 41. Kh3 Ke4 42. g6 Nxg6
43. hxg6 b5 44. Re1+ Kf5 45. Rxe7 Kxg6
46. Rb7 Be5 47. Rxb5 Kf5

the end position is drawn.  let's see if crafty
can improve.

On Tue Aug 24 01:13:39, BMcC  outline/ A few less typos wrote:

> The trickiest try for Kasparov in the b4 lines seems to be giving 
> bishop for b pawn and then trying to queen passers: In a line asked 
> to be reviewed by GM Henley: 33. fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 Kd5 35. g4 b3 36. 
> Bd2 Ke4 37. g5 Kd3 38. Bc1 b2 39. Bxb2 Bxb2 40. Rb1 (probably not 
> better than h6 see below) Bd4+ 41. Kf3 b6 42. Rd1+ Kc4 43. h6 Ne5+ 
> 44. Ke4 d5+ 45. Kf5 Nf7 nope loses easy: pv Rxd4+ Kxd4 h7 Nh8 g6 e6+ 
> Kf6 Nxg6 Kxg6 b5 h8+ e5 +451 [Zarkov] 
> 
> fxg3 b4 34. Kf2 Kd5 35. g4 b3 36. Bd2 Ke4 37. g5 Kd3 38. Bc1 b2 39. 
> Bxb2 Bxb2 40. h6 Ke4

I figured that black would just play 40...Ne5
straight away after h6 & crafty agrees.  Haven't looked
at 40.Rb1 yet.

btw in the ...Bxg3 line I have computers on
(for move 39) Rh1,Rh7,Rh2,Kg2,Bd2

and I'm not seeing any problems.

e.g. 33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7
36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 b4 39.Rh2 Nd4! draws.

On Tue Aug 24 09:23:14, IM2429 wrote:
> 33...Bxg3 34.Bh6!? Be5 (34...Nd4 35.Bg7 +- FAQ) 35.Bf8 Bd4+ (35...b4 
> 36.h6 b3 37.Bg7 leads to +- according to FAQ) 36.Kg2 Ne5 37.Bg7 b4 
> 38.h6 Bc3 (unclear position according to FAQ) 39.Bxe5 Kxe5 (39...Bxe5 
> 40.h7 b3? 41.Re1+-) 40.h7 Ke4 and now FAQ gives only 41.Rb1 leading 
> to a draw
> 
> my two improvement tries are:
> 
> a) 41.Rf8!? and now:
> 
> 41...Kd3?? 42.Rf3+
> 41...b3? 42. Rf3 Bh8 43.Rxb3 +-
> 41...d5 42.Rc8 Bf6 43.Rc7
> 41...e6! here I couldnt find white advantage
> 
> b) 41.Rf7! and now:
> 41...Kd3&b3 do not work for the same reasons as in line a)
> 41...e6 42.Rxb7 (idea Rxb4) 42...Kf5 43.Rb8+-
> 41...d5 42.Rxe7+ Kd3 (42...Kf5 43.Re8) 43.Rxb7 and the b-pawn falls
> 
> 41...b5 42.Rxe7+ Kd3 (42...Kf5 43.Re8 b3 44.h8=Q Bxh8 45.Rxh8 Ke4 
> 46.Rh3 Kd4 47.Rxb3 Kc4 48.Rb1 +-) 43.Kf3 Ba1 44.Rd7 b3 45.Rxd6+ Kc2 
> 46.Ke2 Bg7 47.Rg6 Bh8 ( 47...Bd4 48.Rc8+ Kb1 49.Kd3 +-, 47...Be5 
> 48.Rg5 Bf6 49.Rc5+ Kb1 50.Rxb5 b2 51.Kd1 +-) 48.Rg8 Bf6 49.Rc8+ Kb1 
> 50.Kd2! b2 51.Ra8 and now:
> 
> 51...Bg5+ 52.Kc3 Kc1 53.h8=Q Bd2+ 54.Kd4 b1=Q and does white have a 
> forced win?

I don't believe so, but after 52. Kd1! white has a forced win.

52. Kd1 Bf6 53. Ra6 Bh8 54. Kd2 Bg7 55. Ra5 b4 56. Ra4 b3 57. Ra3 
Bh6+ 58. Kd1 Bg7 59. Rxb3 Be5 60. Rb7 Bd4 61. Rb8 Ka2 62. Kc2 mate in 
21 at most.

Too bad, I *wanted" 33. ... Bxg3 ...

But,

33. fxg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35. h7 Bh8 *** busted, see FAQ ***

33. fxg3 Bxg3 34. h6 Be5 35. h7 Bg7 36. Rf8 b4 37. h8=Q Bxh8 38. Rxh8 
Kd5 39. Kf1 b3 40. Rh2 Kc4 41. Ke1 Ne5 42. Kd1 Nf3 43. Rh5 e5 *** 
unplayable, because 44. Bf6!! leads to Zugzwang ***

Only hope in this line would be to find improvements for black in 
moves 38 to 41. I'm not optimistic.

Not to mention that white doesn't need to play 37. h8=Q.

And not to mention that there are other variations (34. Bh6, 34. Bf4) 
which might contain poison too.

dr.Reidenschneider corrections on FAQ 990823_rev.01

Based on the following analysis ones comes to the conclution that 
33... Bxg3 will lose.
 
36. Bc1 works against both 35... Bh8, 35...Bg7
and is most likely winning.
This is old news and have been posted twice before this.
Considering the ongoing debate a repetition
seems necessary. Considering the authors of the FAQ apperently not 
have understood the idea the move is based upon.

32. g3 fxg3
33. fxg3 Bxg3?
34. h6 Be5
35. h7 Bh8
36. Bc1!     

most probably winning.

36... Nd8
37. Rf2 Bd4 
38. Be3 Bc3

Now dear analyst please understand the idea!

39. Kf1!          ( not 39. Rf8?)  

This is the keymove. Consistently keeping to the plan.
Keeping the rook posted not chasing any material prematurely.
The threat is to exchange bishops. In this case by Ke2-d3, Bd4 
as well as putting the king in the centre to be able to enter
all kinds of endgames keeping black's pawns under control. 

39... Nf7

with the plan to make Bf6 possible, continuing by Nh8-g6, Kf7-g7
attacking white's pawn.

40. Ke2
   
But white is in charge of things.
Now black must try to meet this threat of exchanging bishops
but how? 

40... Bf6 
41. Kd3

With threat Bd4!! thus prohibiting Nh8 thus forcing...
 
41... Ne5+ 

(Too slow is 41... b4? 42. Bd4 b3 43. Bxf6 gxf6 44. Kc3 and Rg2-g8 +-)

42. Kc3! b4 

The only way to keep the white king away from supporting d4.

   ( 42... Ng4+?? 43. Rxf6+ gxf6 44. Bg1 ... , 45 h8Q +-)

43. Kb3

Still threatening Bd4

43... Ng6

Now the simple 44. Kxb4 will do. The following moves are merely a 
sample of white's freedom to manoeuvre.

44. Bc1 Kf7
45. Bh6 Nh8
46. Rg2 

The point. This technique must be used to protect the pawn.

46... Bc3
47. Bc1

again with the threat Bb2. The black bishop must be able to hide.

47... Bf6
48. Kxb4 the simplest

(48. Bb2!? e5  now f6 could become a problem.)


In the end this 37... Bd4 seems lead to the same kind of problems as 
seen in the other lines in this variant.
The white pawn seem untouchable due to tactical threats along the 
g-file and most likely will become decisive factor cramping the black 
pieces. Unable to create sufficient counterplay or support his pawns 
in an active way black is most likely lost.


dr. Erwin Reidenschneider

Face it you're all using pc's to come to your conclusions!!!!

On Tue Aug 24 10:12:12, Going...going...? - Ross Amann wrote:


My outline has every conceivable try at the Rf8 juncture. Maybe you 
are wed to b4 and don't care to find out, I am sure you know the 
Dr.'s line is out of date and nop good.


> Earlier today I asked about analysis of alternatives to 36.Rf8 in the 
> Bxg3 lines. There were no answers - other than the Doctor's.
> 
> On Tue Aug 24 10:02:19, dr.Reidenschneider wrote:
> > dr.Reidenschneider corrections on FAQ 990823_rev.01
> > 
> > Based on the following analysis ones comes to the conclution that 
> > 33... Bxg3 will lose.
> >  
> > 36. Bc1 works against both 35... Bh8, 35...Bg7
> > and is most likely winning.
> > This is old news and have been posted twice before this.
> > Considering the ongoing debate a repetition
> > seems necessary. Considering the authors of the FAQ apperently not 
> > have understood the idea the move is based upon.
> > 
> > 32. g3 fxg3
> > 33. fxg3 Bxg3?
> > 34. h6 Be5
> > 35. h7 Bh8
> > 36. Bc1!     
> > 
> > most probably winning.
> > 
> > 36... Nd8
> > 37. Rf2 Bd4 
> > 38. Be3 Bc3
> > 
> > Now dear analyst please understand the idea!
> > 
> > 39. Kf1!          ( not 39. Rf8?)  
> > 
> > This is the keymove. Consistently keeping to the plan.
> > Keeping the rook posted not chasing any material prematurely.
> > The threat is to exchange bishops. In this case by Ke2-d3, Bd4 
> > as well as putting the king in the centre to be able to enter
> > all kinds of endgames keeping black's pawns under control. 
> > 
> > 39... Nf7
> > 
> > with the plan to make Bf6 possible, continuing by Nh8-g6, Kf7-g7
> > attacking white's pawn.
> > 
> > 40. Ke2
> >    
> > But white is in charge of things.
> > Now black must try to meet this threat of exchanging bishops
> > but how? 
> > 
> > 40... Bf6 
> > 41. Kd3
> > 
> > With threat Bd4!! thus prohibiting Nh8 thus forcing...
> >  
> > 41... Ne5+ 
> > 
> > (Too slow is 41... b4? 42. Bd4 b3 43. Bxf6 gxf6 44. Kc3 and Rg2-g8 +-)
> > 
> > 42. Kc3! b4 
> > 
> > The only way to keep the white king away from supporting d4.
> > 
> >    ( 42... Ng4+?? 43. Rxf6+ gxf6 44. Bg1 ... , 45 h8Q +-)
> > 
> > 43. Kb3
> > 
> > Still threatening Bd4
> > 
> > 43... Ng6
> > 
> > Now the simple 44. Kxb4 will do. The following moves are merely a 
> > sample of white's freedom to manoeuvre.
> > 
> > 44. Bc1 Kf7
> > 45. Bh6 Nh8
> > 46. Rg2 
> > 
> > The point. This technique must be used to protect the pawn.
> > 
> > 46... Bc3
> > 47. Bc1
> > 
> > again with the threat Bb2. The black bishop must be able to hide.
> > 
> > 47... Bf6
> > 48. Kxb4 the simplest
> > 
> > (48. Bb2!? e5  now f6 could become a problem.)
> > 
> > 
> > In the end this 37... Bd4 seems lead to the same kind of problems as 
> > seen in the other lines in this variant.
> > The white pawn seem untouchable due to tactical threats along the 
> > g-file and most likely will become decisive factor cramping the black 
> > pieces. Unable to create sufficient counterplay or support his pawns 
> > in an active way black is most likely lost.
> > 
> > 
> > dr. Erwin Reidenschneider

On Tue Aug 24 10:11:33, Cornielius Pendragon wrote:
> Face it you're all using pc's to come to your conclusions!!!!

You scurvy dog!

Sorry did'nt meant to be harsch!

But you probably missed the point that matters to you.
when missing to read the heading.

36. Bc1 works against both 35... Bh8  35... Bg7

thus it ought to be of interest for you too.

On Tue Aug 24 10:21:40, BMcC e5 not even forced wrote:
> On Tue Aug 24 10:12:19, pk wrote:
> 
> I need some moves, there is really no such thing as leading to 
> running out of moves, you either do ro you don't. In GM Henley's line 
> he gives both b pawns and it looks like zugzwang every move, but it 
> never is!!
> 
> TO refute the most analyzed move of the game you need real moves not 
> vague concepts and overblown conclusions!
> 
It *is* a concept, the particular move order is unimportant. But, for 
instance:

44. Bf6 b5 45. Kc1 Ne1 46. Bg7 b4 47. Bf6 Nd3+ 48. Kb1 Kc3 49. Rh4 d5 
50. Bg7 Zugzwang.

See the idea?

Leave the rook where it is (on h5).
Leave the bishop on the f6...h8 diagonal.
Against ...Ne1 / ...Nd3(+) play Kc1 / Kb1.
After ... Kc3, play Rh4.

Voila, no good moves left. Crafty shows +2.31 or something, going up.

He points this out quite clearly. So you are missing his point 
completely. 

Yes, I know, the FAQ analyzes Bc1 under the Bh8 section - but it 
clearly points out the transposition in its Bg7 analysis.

I must admit I had trouble un derstanding your "Bh8 is 3 days 
old" message until I realized your mistake. It would help if you 
read more and got excited less...



On Tue Aug 24 10:02:19, dr.Reidenschneider wrote:
> dr.Reidenschneider corrections on FAQ 990823_rev.01
> 
> Based on the following analysis ones comes to the conclution that 
> 33... Bxg3 will lose.
>  
> 36. Bc1 works against both 35... Bh8, 35...Bg7
> and is most likely winning.
> This is old news and have been posted twice before this.
> Considering the ongoing debate a repetition
> seems necessary. Considering the authors of the FAQ apperently not 
> have understood the idea the move is based upon.
> 
> 32. g3 fxg3
> 33. fxg3 Bxg3?
> 34. h6 Be5
> 35. h7 Bh8
> 36. Bc1!     
> 
> most probably winning.
> 
> 36... Nd8
> 37. Rf2 Bd4 
> 38. Be3 Bc3
> 
> Now dear analyst please understand the idea!
> 
> 39. Kf1!          ( not 39. Rf8?)  
> 
> This is the keymove. Consistently keeping to the plan.
> Keeping the rook posted not chasing any material prematurely.
> The threat is to exchange bishops. In this case by Ke2-d3, Bd4 
> as well as putting the king in the centre to be able to enter
> all kinds of endgames keeping black's pawns under control. 
> 
> 39... Nf7
> 
> with the plan to make Bf6 possible, continuing by Nh8-g6, Kf7-g7
> attacking white's pawn.
> 
> 40. Ke2
>    
> But white is in charge of things.
> Now black must try to meet this threat of exchanging bishops
> but how? 
> 
> 40... Bf6 
> 41. Kd3
> 
> With threat Bd4!! thus prohibiting Nh8 thus forcing...
>  
> 41... Ne5+ 
> 
> (Too slow is 41... b4? 42. Bd4 b3 43. Bxf6 gxf6 44. Kc3 and Rg2-g8 +-)
> 
> 42. Kc3! b4 
> 
> The only way to keep the white king away from supporting d4.
> 
>    ( 42... Ng4+?? 43. Rxf6+ gxf6 44. Bg1 ... , 45 h8Q +-)
> 
> 43. Kb3
> 
> Still threatening Bd4
> 
> 43... Ng6
> 
> Now the simple 44. Kxb4 will do. The following moves are merely a 
> sample of white's freedom to manoeuvre.
> 
> 44. Bc1 Kf7
> 45. Bh6 Nh8
> 46. Rg2 
> 
> The point. This technique must be used to protect the pawn.
> 
> 46... Bc3
> 47. Bc1
> 
> again with the threat Bb2. The black bishop must be able to hide.
> 
> 47... Bf6
> 48. Kxb4 the simplest
> 
> (48. Bb2!? e5  now f6 could become a problem.)
> 
> 
> In the end this 37... Bd4 seems lead to the same kind of problems as 
> seen in the other lines in this variant.
> The white pawn seem untouchable due to tactical threats along the 
> g-file and most likely will become decisive factor cramping the black 
> pieces. Unable to create sufficient counterplay or support his pawns 
> in an active way black is most likely lost.
> 
> 
> dr. Erwin Reidenschneider

On Tue Aug 24 10:34:35, DK wrote:
> White is buggering about far too much in this line I just did -  
> clearly not honed  to essential moves - but I still like it as an 
> outline because I think it contains two probably workable ideas.
> 
> 1. 34. kf5 Bd2 Ke4 (Otto ter Haar or Ron Henley's idea?) 
> 
> and 
> 
> 2. Pushing the e pawn. 
> 
> 
> 33. fxg3 b4 
> 34. Kf2 Kf5 
> 35. Bd2 Ke4 
> 36. Re1+ 

  White could play also 36.Rb1, that looks better than 36.g4 or 36.h6 
(investigated by Otto ter Haar). And after 36...Bd4+ (otherwise b4 
falls) 37.Ke2 Bc5 38.h6 white wins  

          Kd3 
> 37. Bf4 Bf6 
> 38. h6 b3 
> 39. Re3+ Kc2
> 40. Re2+ Kc3 
> 41. Bc1 e5 
> 42. h7 d5 
> 43. Bb2+ Kd3 
> 44. g4 d4 
> 45. Bc1 e4 
> 46. Bg5 e3+
> 47. Kf1 Bh8
> 
> and black seems okay. 
> 
> Is Ke4 holding up in other lines?  
> 
> Can anyone get rid of the excess and cut to the chase of this idea 
> and tell me if it works or am I deluded? 
> 
> 
> DK
>

The moves you don't see, other's might.

Listening is a skill!


On Tue Aug 24 10:24:01, P. Stolk wrote:
> All he's got after the queen-bisshop trade (that will take place) is 
> a rook and a bishop vs a knight and four pawns. This is eight points 
> vs seven. Two pieces vs five. His weakness can be found on the white 
> squares. I think he'll resign within twenty moves. Kasparov performed 
> a live match on the Spanish public television and he was on the edge 
> of loosing when he decided that five random players (the moves were 
> brought in by telephone) should play him face to face. That's when 
> Spain lost the game. 
> On this event he's got no change pulling a trick like that. His 
> rating is 2851 but vs The World (that on this game made a new move on 
> the most difficult opening (Sicillian)) he doesn't make a change. 
> Many thousands know better than any worldchampion or computer!

It's great to see such in depth analysis at this stage of the game.  
Don't you think the short game of 5 moves ahead is more important?  
It's great to see a line end in a checkmate for black, but 20 moves 
ahead with absolutely no variations.

It's kind of like a circle of people all holding hands, chanting by 
candlelight giving off subliminal vibes which will force Kasparov to 
make a stupid 46. move.  Hey, don't laugh!  I hear they can do that 
stuff in Kentucky!!!  Anyone remember where we put that chicken??!!

..

On Tue Aug 24 10:38:33, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
> On Tue Aug 24 09:49:44, Riemann wrote:
> > would someone please explain all these notational nuances so that I 
> > can better understand the analysis posted here
> > 
> > for example:
> > 
> > += means what?
> > +- means what?
> > 
> > but tell me all the others as well please, i'm sure I'm not the only 
> > one that needs help with this
> 
> Just to be a nice guy...;)
> 
> +-  white is winning
> +/- white has an advantage
> +=  white slightly better
> =   position equal
> =+  black slightly better
> -/+ black has an advantage
> -+  black is winning
> 
> So this is sort of from white's perspective if you consider + good 
> and - bad. A symbol like % or the infinity sign usually means 
> unclear.

tell your mom that.

On Tue Aug 24 11:30:38, Just Bob wrote:
> Keep it in your pants.
> 
> On Tue Aug 24 11:29:09, top shotta wrote:
> > this game is lost. we should retire after kasparov's move and avoid 
> > embarresment. thanks to irina for some completely useless commentary 
> > and to that faggot spiriev for keepin this shit interestin.
> > 
> > latz

How far are we from being able to brute force a solution?

Anyone working on this?

On Tue Aug 24 11:12:13, Amasa Delano wrote:
> On Tue Aug 24 10:34:35, DK wrote:
> > White is buggering about far too much in this line I just did -  
> > clearly not honed  to essential moves - but I still like it as an 
> > outline because I think it contains two probably workable ideas.
> > 
> > 1. 34. kf5 Bd2 Ke4 (Otto ter Haar or Ron Henley's idea?) 
> > 
> > and 
> > 
> > 2. Pushing the e pawn. 
> > 
> > 
> > 33. fxg3 b4 
> > 34. Kf2 Kf5 
> > 35. Bd2 Ke4 
> > 36. Re1+ 
> 
>   White could play also 36.Rb1, that looks better than 36.g4 or 36.h6 
> (investigated by Otto ter Haar). And after 36...Bd4+ (otherwise b4 
> falls) 37.Ke2 Bc5 38.h6 white wins  


I'm not so sure if you're right. Rb1 and Black can play Kd3 
threatening Kc2 - it looks weird but it seems to hold  
 
> 
>           Kd3 
> > 37. Bf4 Bf6 
> > 38. h6 b3 
> > 39. Re3+ Kc2
> > 40. Re2+ Kc3 
> > 41. Bc1 e5 
> > 42. h7 d5 
> > 43. Bb2+ Kd3 
> > 44. g4 d4 
> > 45. Bc1 e4 
> > 46. Bg5 e3+
> > 47. Kf1 Bh8
> > 
> > and black seems okay. 
> > 
> > Is Ke4 holding up in other lines?  
> > 
> > Can anyone get rid of the excess and cut to the chase of this idea 
> > and tell me if it works or am I deluded? 
> > 
> > 
> > DK
> >

34. Rb1 seems to allow us to freeze GK's kingside with Kf5 follwed by 
Kg4.  What do you think?

On Tue Aug 24 12:09:18, NetDogma wrote:
> Well all the analysis think that we should make a run for it with b4, 
> what do you think kasparov'l do after that? 34. Rb1!
> 
> ???
> 
> -ND-

On Tue Aug 24 11:52:16, Rob wrote:
> How far are we from being able to brute force a solution?
> 
> Anyone working on this?
> 

I don't believe one can easily "brute force" a solution in 
anything over Mate in 8 or so (that's 17 ply already).  The problem 
is that, while there are a lot fewer pieces (so a lot fewer 
possibilities at each move to consider), it takes much longer to 
develop a play (moving a king across a board, for instance).  
Short-term tactics no longer apply, since, with so few pieces on the 
board, humans would see the tactics coming and avoid them.  The 
computer tries to play to it's ply horizon, and sees nothing 
"winning" in the next 7-8 moves or so, so ends up playing 
bonehead moves.  

Incidentally, this is why many chess computers are opting for Bxg3, 
since this tactics "wins" in the short term, but loses in the 
long term (Bxg3 effectively loses two tempi, ... Bxg3 ... Be5).

A better way to compute a solution would be to use tablebases (large 
databases of endgame positions).  Most tablebases only give 
"solutions" for a few pieces, though... we still have many 
pieces left on the board.

Either Kasparov found a marvelous way to win the game "Kasparov 
vs. the World" or the champion decided to simplify the position 
exchanging Queens, and then to take the game under his accurate 
control. I can’t see a chance to win for White. There is no use of 
the richest imagination and the deep analysis of the computer 
monsters. Nevertheless, it will be hard for amateurs to find the best 
way to a quiet haven. I think, they will have to use a sheep’s 
camouflage and to follow the advice of the official experts and 
independent experts from “Grand master Chess School”. In this case 
everything will be alright! The contest will end in a draw and 
everybody will be delighted! Collective mind of the millions of 
people will rest unbeaten and each party will get an ear-ring. It 
would be a classic American happy end. 

--  Not written by Garry Kasparov

Once again the the advisors proscrastinate by
choosing 33..b4?! over the decisive 33..Bxg3 . The only rational for 
this choice is that they haven't figured out yet whether the move 
33..b4?! looses by force. This is simply a repeat of the of the same 
decision process that rejected 29..Qe2!? and avoided the very much 
preferable Q+2P+R vs Q+4P+N endgame for black over what they got now. 
Whether Kasparov wins or draw one thing is for sure that 
psychologically he has this team beat !!

There are many lines for white that produce an edge, all Garri has to 
do is improve one line and we lose, Irina's statement that Bg3 is 
likely to lead to fatal slip is wrong, we have much more leeway, as 
GM Henley showed we can lose 2 of our 4 pawns and draw.


Bf4!, Rb1!, Kf2! Kg2, g4 all moves lead to pain for World. Garri just 
needs 1 improvement, I can't believe all the analysts would vote for 
allowing 2 passers!

Bg3!!  not one move gets an edge on my computer and all lines have 
been fully evaluated an dplayed out on hash tables,

even those R & B versus knight and pawns endings give us some shots


On Tue Aug 24 12:46:01, BMcC All moves good vs b4. none vs Bg3! wrote:
> There are many lines for white that produce an edge, all Garri has to 
> do is improve one line and we lose, Irina's statement that Bg3 is 
> likely to lead to fatal slip is wrong, we have much more leeway, as 
> GM Henley showed we can lose 2 of our 4 pawns and draw.
> 
> 
> Bf4!, Rb1!, Kf2! Kg2, g4 all moves lead to pain for World. Garri just 
> needs 1 improvement, I can't believe all the analysts would vote for 
> allowing 2 passers!
> 
> Bg3!!  not one move gets an edge on my computer and all lines have 
> been fully evaluated an dplayed out on hash tables,

First, some reminders:

Remember when the comment was posted here that there would come a 
time when the black sheep would cry, "Save us, save us, please 
save us Irina Krush!" Well, that time is at hand in this current 
position. Thank goodness Irina Krush has recommended (along with the 
other two analysts) 33...b4, instead of the dubious alternative 
33...Bxg3?!

Also, remember just a few moves ago, when Mr. Danny King commented:

"As I see it, you have a choice between two quite different 
continuations:
the solid 29...Qe2, leading to a position giving Black drawing 
chances; or
a leap of faith with 29...Qc4, leading to random complications 
(though here
I would also say that Black cannot hope for more than a draw)." - 
Danny King

Secondly, It has been stated here (in reply to my posts) that a true 
grandmaster would "rise to the occasion" in this position. 
"Rise to the occasion" meaning what? Attempt to find a way 
for Black to draw this ending, when analysis was already submitted 
before the 29th move that clearly showed Black would have had good 
drawing chances with 29...Qe2, instead of the inferior 29...Qc4 that 
was played anyway? The statement: "Rise to the occasion" is 
very fascinating to say the least.

However, our humble team of four grandmasters will attempt to try and 
find a way for Black to draw the ensuing ending ahead, but make no 
mistake about it, White is winning this current position. Finding a 
miracle draw for Black now, looks very bleak indeed. Also, we 
collectively agree that any analysis that we submit on this current 
ending will be ignored anyway, and will probably only be a futile 
attempt and a waste of time. But, that is okay, the challenge will be 
rewarding in any event. Additionally, we will now only explore 
33...b4, because we have already determined that 33...Bxg3? loses for 
Black. If we find something that is possible for Black to draw, then 
we will post it. If not, then we will simply have to accept the fact 
that Black's position is lost in the ensuing ending ahead no matter 
what.

When we submitted the analysis on 29...Qe2, we foresaw the danger of 
the h-Pawn (and g-Pawn) in this position that now confronts the 
world. This is why we rejected 29...Qc4. It was obvious to us that 
Kasparov would achieve a won position after 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 
32.g3! fxg3?! (32...f3 should have been explored more thoroughly) 
33.fxg3! because of the opening of the f-file activating White's 
Rook, and the serious threat of Bf6, after the h-Pawn advances and 
reaches to h7, but no one paid any attention to our analysis. Now it 
is our hope that Black can still somehow achieve a draw after 
33...b4. If the world players unite (instead of arguing) perhaps a 
draw can still be accomplished.

Good luck world

GM2505

Garry only needs 5 to 10 minutes to think of a move. Why do we have 
to wait so long!

On Tue Aug 24 12:56:39, BMcC GM Suttles much better than analysts 
wrote:
> Duncan Suttles was a world class player and his opinion has barely 
> been taken into consideration over a bunch of 2300-2400 players. No 
> one working for the world team has made a living by playing chess, 
> like I have. 
> 
> Pushing vidoes on beginners does not make you able to play Kasparov! 
> 
> GM Henley may be a strong player, but he's no Suttles. He got his 
> title by traveling to indonesia and has not beaten very many top 
> americans at all and has never won enough money in american 
> tournaments to ever be on the Grand Prix list. Duncan Suttles played 
> in the very top round robin internationals for yrs, something Henley 
> has never done.
> 
> I have beaten Christiansen, Fedorowicz, Rohde. Kudrin, Wolff, Alex 
> Ivanov. and other US championship contenders. I have won more money 
> playing in chess tournaments than all the analysts who contributed 
> ...b4? put together.
> 
> Listen to the best player here, and then listen to the most 
> experienced at beating over 2600 GM's. Then add in the fact that a 
> week of the strongest computers in the world said Bxg3 and you will s 
> the time to follow weak master and kids has ended. 
> Its nothing personal, all the analysts may some day make GM, but 
> right now, thy are just learning, it is a disgrace that some jerks 
> have to insult a top player in the world, when he is trying to help 
> us!!!!

Ron Henley has come up with a number of real blinders as far as I can 
see and Irina was clearly soewhat torn but made the best of a 
difficult choice together with a cogent argument to support her 
decision. 

However - clearly both yourself and Duncan add potent weight to 
support of any move. Would you please therefor do us the curtesy of 
dusting off Bxb3 one last time and giving us less gifted players as 
clearly and simply as possible the lines that you think aught to make 
it the voters first choice. I'd certainly be willing to really try to 
get my head around it again, time, and sawdust for brains, permitting.
DK

On Tue Aug 24 12:53:02, Tex wrote:



Open wide world team, or as we say on the Chess road : Bend over!


> I too find it hard to swallow the two passers!!
> On Tue Aug 24 12:46:01, BMcC All moves good vs b4. none vs Bg3! wrote:
> > There are many lines for white that produce an edge, all Garri has to 
> > do is improve one line and we lose, Irina's statement that Bg3 is 
> > likely to lead to fatal slip is wrong, we have much more leeway, as 
> > GM Henley showed we can lose 2 of our 4 pawns and draw.
> > 
> > 
> > Bf4!, Rb1!, Kf2! Kg2, g4 all moves lead to pain for World. Garri just 
> > needs 1 improvement, I can't believe all the analysts would vote for 
> > allowing 2 passers!
> > 
> > Bg3!!  not one move gets an edge on my computer and all lines have 
> > been fully evaluated an dplayed out on hash tables,

On Tue Aug 24 13:14:53, Simply skip wrote:
> .
> On Tue Aug 24 12:56:49, GM2505 wrote:
> > First, some reminders:
> > 
> > Remember when the comment was posted here that there would come a 
> > time when the black sheep would cry, "Save us, save us, please 
> > save us Irina Krush!" Well, that time is at hand in this current 
> > position. Thank goodness Irina Krush has recommended (along with the 
> > other two analysts) 33...b4, instead of the dubious alternative 
> > 33...Bxg3?!
> > 
> > Also, remember just a few moves ago, when Mr. Danny King commented:
> > 
> > "As I see it, you have a choice between two quite different 
> > continuations:
> > the solid 29...Qe2, leading to a position giving Black drawing 
> > chances; or
> > a leap of faith with 29...Qc4, leading to random complications 
> > (though here
> > I would also say that Black cannot hope for more than a draw)." - 
> > Danny King
> > 
> > Secondly, It has been stated here (in reply to my posts) that a true 
> > grandmaster would "rise to the occasion" in this position. 
> > "Rise to the occasion" meaning what? Attempt to find a way 
> > for Black to draw this ending, when analysis was already submitted 
> > before the 29th move that clearly showed Black would have had good 
> > drawing chances with 29...Qe2, instead of the inferior 29...Qc4 that 
> > was played anyway? The statement: "Rise to the occasion" is 
> > very fascinating to say the least.
> > 
> > However, our humble team of four grandmasters will attempt to try and 
> > find a way for Black to draw the ensuing ending ahead, but make no 
> > mistake about it, White is winning this current position. Finding a 
> > miracle draw for Black now, looks very bleak indeed. Also, we 
> > collectively agree that any analysis that we submit on this current 
> > ending will be ignored anyway, and will probably only be a futile 
> > attempt and a waste of time. But, that is okay, the challenge will be 
> > rewarding in any event. Additionally, we will now only explore 
> > 33...b4, because we have already determined that 33...Bxg3? loses for 
> > Black. If we find something that is possible for Black to draw, then 
> > we will post it. If not, then we will simply have to accept the fact 
> > that Black's position is lost in the ensuing ending ahead no matter 
> > what.
> > 
> > When we submitted the analysis on 29...Qe2, we foresaw the danger of 
> > the h-Pawn (and g-Pawn) in this position that now confronts the 
> > world. This is why we rejected 29...Qc4. It was obvious to us that 
> > Kasparov would achieve a won position after 30.Qf5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Kxe6 
> > 32.g3! fxg3?! (32...f3 should have been explored more thoroughly) 
> > 33.fxg3! because of the opening of the f-file activating White's 
> > Rook, and the serious threat of Bf6, after the h-Pawn advances and 
> > reaches to h7, but no one paid any attention to our analysis. Now it 
> > is our hope that Black can still somehow achieve a draw after 
> > 33...b4. If the world players unite (instead of arguing) perhaps a 
> > draw can still be accomplished.
> > 
> > Good luck world
> > 
> > GM2506

.

Maybe this ending is lost, but I for one would love to play it out. 
It should be fascinating.

GM 2505 alias David alias Foreman alias Hearken alias Elmer Fudd and 
many others...

...specializes in 1 move deep variations and 3/4 pages text void 
"commentaries"

He also posts the same stuff at regular intervals on general 
discussion BBS

I propose to rename this jerk "Mr cut and paste"

On Tue Aug 24 13:13:27, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> You claim that 33..Bxg3!? is a forced loss but
> Irina simply claims that they don't like the
> N+4P vs R+B ending just like they didn't like
> the Q+R+2P vs Q+N+4P ending which I am sure they
> all wish they had now over what they got. 
> I will be the first one to support 33..b4?!
> if 33..Bxg3!? is demonstrated to lead to a forced
> loss. Perhaps someone can publish the line
> which eliminates 33..Bxg3!? from consideration ?

http://www.smartchess.com/smartchessonline/default.asp?theURL=/SmartCh
essOnline/USGMs/usgm_profiles.htm

> Duncan Suttles was a world class player and his opinion has barely 
> been taken into consideration 

Actually, I study everything I can lay my hands on by GM Suttles.

> GM Henley may be a strong player, 

Correct. And a very strong analyst - ask Karpov. I certainly 
appreciate his understanding of the game - his training has helped me 
immensely in the last two years.

> has never won enough money in american 
> tournaments to ever be on the Grand Prix list. 

GM Henley does not play professionally - since 1982/83 - nor does he 
need to. He is a businessman by profession on the American Stock 
Exchange.

> it is a disgrace that some jerks 
> have to insult a top player in the world

Who has been insulted? GM Suttles? I don't understand.

Irina

On Tue Aug 24 13:13:27, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> You claim that 33..Bxg3!? is a forced loss but
> Irina simply claims that they don't like the
> N+4P vs R+B ending just like they didn't like
> the Q+R+2P vs Q+N+4P ending which I am sure they
> all wish they had now over what they got. 
> I will be the first one to support 33..b4?!
> if 33..Bxg3!? is demonstrated to lead to a forced
> loss. Perhaps someone can publish the line
> which eliminates 33..Bxg3!? from consideration ?

You are right Duncan. No forced loss has been posted for Bxg3 - b4 
was chosen in a very tight race where one had to win and one had to 
lose - and it was chosen pragmatically with some difficulty as Irina 
candidly and fairly pointed out in her analysis. 

And to other Bxg3 advocates can I add - Jees - I've bought houses 
with far less info to go on - deep breaths to anyone still stressed 
about this - and repeat the mantra - "it's only a game" :) 
We've really got to get motoring on trying to make b4 work - Even if 
it were proven b4 fails horribly (which it doesn't) it is now going 
to win the vote as what is said on this BBS affects only a tiny 
percentage of the voters who vote without even a cursory visit here.

.
On Tue Aug 24 13:30:57, Irina Krush wrote:
> 
> > Duncan Suttles was a world class player and his opinion has barely 
> > been taken into consideration 
> 
> Actually, I study everything I can lay my hands on by GM Suttles.
> 
> > GM Henley may be a strong player, 
> 
> Correct. And a very strong analyst - ask Karpov. I certainly 
> appreciate his understanding of the game - his training has helped me 
> immensely in the last two years.
> 
> > has never won enough money in american 
> > tournaments to ever be on the Grand Prix list. 
> 
> GM Henley does not play professionally - since 1982/83 - nor does he 
> need to. He is a businessman by profession on the American Stock 
> Exchange.
> 
> > it is a disgrace that some jerks 
> > have to insult a top player in the world
> 
> Who has been insulted? GM Suttles? I don't understand.
> 
> Irina

http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/if/48810.asp

On Tue Aug 24 13:33:07, DK wrote:
> On Tue Aug 24 13:13:27, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> > You claim that 33..Bxg3!? is a forced loss but
> > Irina simply claims that they don't like the
> > N+4P vs R+B ending just like they didn't like
> > the Q+R+2P vs Q+N+4P ending which I am sure they
> > all wish they had now over what they got. 
> > I will be the first one to support 33..b4?!
> > if 33..Bxg3!? is demonstrated to lead to a forced
> > loss. Perhaps someone can publish the line
> > which eliminates 33..Bxg3!? from consideration ?
> 
> You are right Duncan. No forced loss has been posted for Bxg3 - b4 
> was chosen in a very tight race where one had to win and one had to 
> lose - and it was chosen pragmatically with some difficulty as Irina 
> candidly and fairly pointed out in her analysis. 
> 
> And to other Bxg3 advocates can I add - Jees - I've bought houses 
> with far less info to go on - deep breaths to anyone still stressed 
> about this - and repeat the mantra - "it's only a game" :) 
> We've really got to get motoring on trying to make b4 work - Even if 
> it were proven b4 fails horribly (which it doesn't) it is now going 
> to win the vote as what is said on this BBS affects only a tiny 
> percentage of the voters who vote without even a cursory visit here.
>  
>  

very real comment DK.  I must say you have been a hard one to pin 
down and I mean that in a very nice way.  I read your posts expecting 
little predictibility (sp?) in what you might say.  that is in short 
supply on this BBS.

anyhow this BBS can at best swing 10% of the vote and that would 
be with a hard core 75% of postings all pushing the same 
move/line.  The only vote I think we made a distinct difference on is 
f4.   b4 is it folks and either analyze it or watch your time and 
work go for naught.  Good luck to all Bxg3 folks  but I am off to 
vote b4 on its merits, anyways, despite its inevitability.

http://website.lineone.net/~joconnell/chess/

Transcript from Tonight's Chat with Danny King will be available here 
by Midnight GMT


John!

chess@cork.zzn.com
http://www.cork.zzn.com

I see BBS lines showing up in the SmartChess FAQs within hours of 
their posting. 

Sometimes they miss things - but not for long.


On Tue Aug 24 12:57:18, Eduardo wrote:
> Irinas analysis in her SMART-FAQ is impressive. She covers all the 
> important lines and finds an adequate answer for black in each one of 
> them. Of course it is not her sole work, as she gallantly states 
> giving credit where credit is due (citing actual lines given by 
> members of the world team).  This shows her enormous contribution to 
> this game and also that she takes the time to follow our discussions. 
> It must be a phenomenal task to extract the good moves from such a 
> confusing dialog.
> My personal thanks to her for all this effort.

29...Qe2 and 32...Bxg3 were VERY different moves. The first offered a 
90% certainty of a draw - a long and Karpovian (noone would 
disagree with that term, some might say "boring") draw. The 
second was a speculative attempt to complicate - and it's not as if 
32...b4 isn't exciting in its own right.

So I don't see how you can compare the two choices.

And, frankly, from the Duncan Suttles' games I've studied, I cannot 
imagine his playing 29...Qe2 over the board; while I would certainly 
expect 32...Bxg3 from him.



On Tue Aug 24 12:32:05, Duncan Suttles wrote:
> Once again the the advisors proscrastinate by
> choosing 33..b4?! over the decisive 33..Bxg3 . The only rational for 
> this choice is that they haven't figured out yet whether the move 
> 33..b4?! looses by force. This is simply a repeat of the of the same 
> decision process that rejected 29..Qe2!? and avoided the very much 
> preferable Q+2P+R vs Q+4P+N endgame for black over what they got now. 
> Whether Kasparov wins or draw one thing is for sure that 
> psychologically he has this team beat !!

First off, on a personal note I would really like the Ps+N vs. R+B 
ending to be a draw, particularly in the "fantasy" position 
that GM Henley posted yesterday.  I think that would be a perfect 
ending to the most complicated and analyzed game in the history of 
chess. However I'm not convinced it can be drawn, and I gather 
SmartChess and GM School are not convinced either.  Are you?  I have 
to say that computer analysis of this positions is *extremely* 
difficult to make judgements on, the brute force depth needed to make 
a positive conclusion is simply too great for typical PC programs. I 
have to believe you are going with this not because you know it draws 
but because you are sure b4 loses.  As I see it at the moment both 
lines are questionable and either could easily lose.  If you believe 
otherwise I think everyone would love to see your outright bust of 
b4, or your analysis showing why this monster ending of Bxg3 is more 
likely a draw than a loss.

Second, on a more practical level the only way the vote can be 
avoided, since all major players are recommending b4, is if you 
convince the BBS and therefore SmartChess that Bxg3 is better.  Only 
with strong backing from SmartChess and the BBS have the other 
analysts including GM School been overruled on a move.  I don't think 
insulting GM Henley helps accomplish that purpose, so I submit that 
your comments   in that regard will only diminish whatever chance 
Bxg3 has.  I also don't think that OTB ranking necessarily means 
being able to find the best move in some of these positions. I don't 
think even Kasparov would have an easy time telling us which move is 
better for black right now, so don't insult people who have dedicated 
so much of their time to working on this game.  So, please convince 
the BBS either that the Bxg3 endgame is a draw (a single Zarkov run 
from the starting point of the endgame is absolutely worthless), or 
that b4 is hopeless.  Or more specifically that the Bxg3 endgame is 
significantly less hopeless than b4.

On Tue Aug 24 14:09:15, Pete Rihaczek wrote:

I am mot trying to insult anyone, I am trying to defend clearly our 
best contributor. Forgive me is I stated the facts a bit harshly, but 
it is tough to see a jerk asking a world class GM is he got out of 
bed onthe worng side. He clearly demonstarted draws in the wild ...b5 
line, the Qe2 line and now he supprts Bg3, yet people ignore him and 
plead we go along with a move because Smartchess says so. I like 
Irina very much and respect her opinion, but the math says Suttles 
can beat her (especially in his prime) three out of 4 times. Yet 
geeks with attitudes insult away.

Am i insulting anyone to say that Henley got his title in an 
indonesian event he and Walter Browne won, as compared to playing in 
events with Larsen and Fischer?
Henley never even made it to US championship level, forget Bobby.

And further, I have followed every major tournament of GM Henley's at 
least since Indonesia, and while posessing a GM technique and ability 
to bash the bunnies, I have never seen him pull off a pressure upset 
on a US championship level player. I have beaten over 2600 players 16 
times and one of the times I beat Rohde was a last round money game 
with Yasser a board over. I got 110 Grand Prix points and only 3 IM's 
that i know of have dome that, Brooks, Bonin, Burtnett and Ivanov. 
I have beat Waitzking 2-0, I beat Ashley 2-0, I beat Staurt Rachels 
and Jordy Mt Renaud when they were the world's youngest masters. I 
went Bxh7 check the 1st time I played with Irina. The only 2 
prodigies to have a plus score on me are Michael wilder and Judith 
Polgar. I don't mind helping the team. I mind taking flak from idiots 
who don't know what theyare talking about.

I am selling my move and it is perfectly fair for me to compar 
resume's. Smartchess does not have to prove their Chess 
qualifications to anyone, they are all good players, I am talking to 
the players who are mocking the people who have made the most money 
actually playing the game.



really like the Ps+N vs. R+B 
> ending to be a draw, particularly in the "fantasy" position 
> that GM Henley posted yesterday.  I think that would be a perfect 
> ending to the most complicated and analyzed game in the history of 
> chess. However I'm not convinced it can be drawn, and I gather 
> SmartChess and GM School are not convinced either.  Are you?  I have 
> to say that computer analysis of this positions is *extremely* 
> difficult to make judgements on, the brute force depth needed to make 
> a positive conclusion is simply too great for typical PC programs. I 
> have to believe you are going with this not because you know it draws 
> but because you are sure b4 loses.  As I see it at the moment both 
> lines are questionable and either could easily lose.  If you believe 
> otherwise I think everyone would love to see your outright bust of 
> b4, or your analysis showing why this monster ending of Bxg3 is more 
> likely a draw than a loss.
> 
> Second, on a more practical level the only way the vote can be 
> avoided, since all major players are recommending b4, is if you 
> convince the BBS and therefore SmartChess that Bxg3 is better.  Only 
> with strong backing from SmartChess and the BBS have the other 
> analysts including GM School been overruled on a move.  I don't think 
> insulting GM Henley helps accomplish that purpose, so I submit that 
> your comments   in that regard will only diminish whatever chance 
> Bxg3 has.  I also don't think that OTB ranking necessarily means 
> being able to find the best move in some of these positions. I don't 
> think even Kasparov would have an easy time telling us which move is 
> better for black right now, so don't insult people who have dedicated 
> so much of their time to working on this game.  So, please convince 
> the BBS either that the Bxg3 endgame is a draw (a single Zarkov run 
> from the starting point of the endgame is absolutely worthless), or 
> that b4 is hopeless.  Or more specifically that the Bxg3 endgame is 
> significantly less hopeless than b4.

Would anyone mind telling me how we can stop The Rug from playing 
simply Bh6, Bf8, h6, and then Bg7? 

I know, I know, it's four moves, but how in the blue blazes do we 
stop it? Ne8 and Nf7 won't do it. And neither will pushing the 
b-pawn. 

I think it's time to hang it up, folks. Maybe take up Parcheesi. Deep 
Blue we ain't.

I don't think so, because if we play Nd8, The Rug can start pushing 
the g-pawn as well. He'll have two passers coming at us, and we'll 
have no way to get the king over. It amazes me that everyone is 
looking at white just pushing the h-pawn. The Rug is not a 
pawn-pusher. He's a great hairy thinker of the first order. Bh6, Bf8, 
h6, and Bg7 is unstoppable.

On Tue Aug 24 14:44:15, JayDee wrote:
> On Tue Aug 24 14:35:04, J'dubious wrote:
> > Would anyone mind telling me how we can stop The Rug from playing 
> > simply Bh6, Bf8, h6, and then Bg7? 
> > 
> > I know, I know, it's four moves, but how in the blue blazes do we 
> > stop it? Ne8 and Nf7 won't do it. And neither will pushing the 
> > b-pawn. 
> > 
> > I think it's time to hang it up, folks. Maybe take up Parcheesi. Deep 
> > Blue we ain't. 
> 
> You stop it with N-d8; N-f7. You lose the knight for the advnaced 
> pawn, but you can also pick up the pawn on g3 when he takes the 
> knight. It leave us down, but with the only pawns alive and maybe a 
> chance for a draw.

On Tue Aug 24 14:35:04, J'dubious wrote:
> Would anyone mind telling me how we can stop The Rug from playing 
> simply Bh6, Bf8, h6, and then Bg7? 

33.fxg3 b4

In its crudest form...

34.Bh6 b3
35.Bf8 b2
36.h6 Nd4
37.Bg7 Ne2+
38.Kf2 Nc1

Irina

On Tue Aug 24 14:35:04, J'dubious wrote:
> Would anyone mind telling me how we can stop The Rug from playing 
> simply Bh6, Bf8, h6, and then Bg7? 
> 
> I know, I know, it's four moves, but how in the blue blazes do we 
> stop it? Ne8 and Nf7 won't do it. And neither will pushing the 
> b-pawn. 
> 
> I think it's time to hang it up, folks. Maybe take up Parcheesi. Deep 
> Blue we ain't. 

33. ... Bf6
34. Bg6 Kf7

Of course, after the Bf6 move White won't move Bg6, but that's O.K.  
No matter what White does, the result is closing the f-file to his 
Rook, thus providing cover for the King to stop the h-file pawn 
advancement and, hence, any possibility of winning.

On Tue Aug 24 15:02:07, meandyg wrote:

We do not know if b4 loses or draws conslusively, but it is clear 
Bxg3 is a much better move. The knocks against it by GM Chess are a 
joke and the FAQ leads to an easy draw as smartchess admits, they 
asked for possible alternatives, I ran nearly every legal move and 
they all ran better for black, 

There is no debate going on, just fear and politics


> On Tue Aug 24 14:58:15, Spirulina da wrong way wrote:
> > The Rug is no pawn pusher.
> > 
> > He has Bh6, Bf8, h6, and Bg7 lurking like an ICBM under Grand Central 
> > Station. 
> > 
> > Why is the World ignoring such a powerful play and focusing on the 
> > pawn race? I have not even seen this recognized, much less analyzed. 
> > 
> > Kasparov, like his namesake Kaspablanca, will choose the most elegant 
> > and least brutish route to victory. 
> > 
> > No one can stop him. 
> > Not the cute teenager.
> > Not the options principal marketmaker.
> > Not the international terrorist. 
> > 
> > No one. 
> 
> Irina's just mailed the answer to this, but seeing as though you want 
> it again, you can have it again!
> 
> 33. ..   b4
> 34. Bh6? b3
> 35. Bf8  b2
> 36. h6   Nd4
> 37. Bg7  Ne2+
> 38. Kf2 (or wherever you choose) Nc1!
> 
> And black wins.
> 
> Andy

:-)

We have inaccurate analysis, a 2400 and an options trader proposing 
how to beat Kasparov vs a time tested GM with top flight experiencs 
and more than 1000 hrs of objective, best score wins analysis and all 
say we need Bg3! 

Even if you think b4 is a given, all the more reason to side with GM 
Suttles, Computer Chess Team and myself. No one has a fraction of the 
analysis of my outline. And its all verified by a computer and a 110 
Grand Prix point winner.

Vote Bg3! the best move

Accurate notation >= accurate analysis
(You have to be able to communicate your ideas clearly before people 
can properly judge the idea on its merits.)

JVE

On Tue Aug 24 15:26:14, J. Marcz wrote:
> Can't make up your mind?

This is from my outline, there has been no serious attempt to 
demonstrate any edge for white in any line, compare that to b4, when 
Rb1, Bf4, g4, Kf2 and Kg2 all poduce edges!!


C2d3) The reason Smartchess gave up line in its improved version: 


(33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 
39.Kf1 b3 40. Bc1 Na5 41. Rh3 e5 42. Ke2 b5 43. Kd3 b4 44. Rh4 Kc5 
full 16 -0.28 ~16h crafty 16.15 will hardly convince irina now... 
" CC Team" rb

On Tue Aug 24 15:31:57, BMcC can't speak for CCT but, pretty clear... 
wrote:
> On Tue Aug 24 15:26:14, J. Marcz wrote:
> > Can't make up your mind?
> 
> This is from my outline, there has been no serious attempt to 
> demonstrate any edge for white in any line, compare that to b4, when 
> Rb1, Bf4, g4, Kf2 and Kg2 all poduce edges!!
> 
> 
> C2d3) The reason Smartchess gave up line in its improved version: 
> 
> 
> (33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 
> 39.Kf1 b3 40. Bc1 Na5 41. Rh3 e5 42. Ke2 b5 43. Kd3 b4 44. Rh4 Kc5 
> full 16 -0.28 ~16h crafty 16.15 will hardly convince irina now... 
> " CC Team" rb 

I've been running this for the last 20 minutes or so with Hiarcs.  
100 million nodes, depth = 13/30, 362 hits on the 5-man tablebases, 
and the eval is under a pawn, which is still draw territory.  *BUT*, 
I have seen this sort of thing before, then you make a few moves and 
all of sudden black is lost.  We would have to run *SO* much analysis 
on this endgame it would be ridiculous.  Again it would be painful to 
Kasparov too, so if b4 and Bxg3 are assessed as equally risky at this 
point I think Bxg3 would be more fun. But how serious are the 
problems with b4 really??  I'm just not sure.

I have set my computer to create accounts and vote.  Without a doubt, 
we will have enough (easily by a huge margin).

On Tue Aug 24 15:48:45, Done Deal!!!! wrote:
> I have set my computer to create accounts and vote.  Without a doubt, 
> we will have enough (easily by a huge margin).

I haven't decided which way to cast my 3 votes. ;)))
I would not be disappointed at all to play Bxg3 because Kasparov will 
have to be really worried about screwing up.  That's probably not the 
case with b4, but I don't know if I have enough time to feel 
confident one way or another.  In case of doubt I will probably go 
with Bxg3 just for the sheer complexity of it. :)

On Tue Aug 24 15:45:03, Plain English wrote:


We had longer to work on this line than any other, the lines at the 
end of the initial lines have been run and verified by hash tables, 
if you can't go through my outline and see why we are better, its 
hard to think what I could add. Bg3!!

1. I have explained the roles of the bishops, Garri is dying to give 
his away for our b pawn, we should have considered this a top 
priority. 2 pawns onthe 6th are worth a rook and we do not have a 
rook to give!!! Bg3!!

2. In any of the FAQ lines of b4. white can at will substitute, g4, 
ot Bf4 or both, and get a good game, as I pointed out 2 days ago and 
GM chess also said, if Kf5 ever becomes a serious defense, white need 
only play g4 1st. This is now their main b4 line.  Bg3!!

3. The FAQ contradicted itself 2 days ago, showing a forced loss by 
its own analysis. This exposed that they were just beginning to 
understand the mechanisms of when to play Bg7/Bd4/Bh8. I have been 
right with the CCTeam table baseing every last try and making it fit 
best in each situation. If  Irina and Henley couldn't catch on until 
days of trying, what hope does an amatuer have? 

4. The strongest computer analysis has verified the instinct of our 
highest rated player who has already spotted 3 draws that were all 
ignored, ..b5 instead of f4, admittedly came too late, but Qe2 is a 
lot better than we will get if b4? and now Bg3 the most sure draw of 
all 3 to me, although GM Suttles is still cautious. He hasn't 
memorized the table base analysis like me.

5. My outline does not stop till the game is settled, there is no 
better way to present the data, no way out for white. I see no eason 
to support b4 other than you haven't studied Bg3! enough!

talk moves to me, not where my analysis came from, at least I have 
some. We are going by a GM chess site, whose children posted for them!



> I worked up 33. .. nd4 mainly because no humans had and shown the 
> work.  But taking Nd4 out 12 moves by strong human analysts showed 
> some end games that were unclear.  Another 20 moves at least would be 
> needed before the line becomes clear.  So I add this in in support of 
> that.  I always know when playing against a computer that even sloppy 
> middle game play can be overcome by bearing down and playing the end 
> game correctly because the computer program inevitably screws it up.  
> I assume that at master ratings this same basic premise stil holds vs 
> a Human GM.  If you had deeper blue running we might sing a different 
> tune, but here I put my trust in human hands.
> 
> So talk to us about the best Bxg3 line you have and show your human 
> understanding of it.  That might sway my vote.  I will not vote until 
> the last hour of time alloted.  
> 
> 
> On Tue Aug 24 15:31:39, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
> > The only thing I have to say I like about the Bxg3 endgame is that it 
> > will give Kasparov a headache. We will probably lose, and I would 
> > rather lose that way because we will have been going down the most 
> > unclear and complicated paths right to the end, and he'll know he's 
> > been in a fight.
> > 
> > However computer analysis consisting of running Crafty to 16 ply is 
> > just bullshit.  I can do 500,000 nodes per second with Fritz and get 
> > there in 30 minutes or less. Fritz doesn't have the tablebases 
> > though.  But the problem with Crafty even *with* tablebases is that 
> > it doesn't do any selective extended searches.  If you run it to 16 
> > ply that's all you get, and anything that happens after 16 ply does 
> > not come into the picture.  This endgame takes more than 16 ply to 
> > resolve.  I could probably get to 19 or even 20 ply overnight with 
> > Fritz, plus selective to 40 or 50, but without the tablebases it may 
> > not mean much.  I've been using mostly Hiarcs because it does both 
> > the selective deep searching and uses the tablebases, and it thinks 
> > some of the Crafty lines on your page are weak.  It might be wrong, 
> > but it might be right.  The point is it's not definitive by any 
> > stretch of the imagination.  And it seems a bit strange that you pump 
> > up your credentials as far as who you've beaten and whatnot and then 
> > you base the strength of this endgame on some Crafty runs done by 
> > other people and not handchecked by a strong human??  Even if GM 
> > Suttles likes it, he should have some *hand* analysis to back it up, 
> > shouldn't he?  Again, I like it only because it's so complicated that 
> > Kasparov will racking his brain to the bitter end, but I don't 
> > believe that some Crafty runs amounts to hill of beans for a real 
> > assessment.

Please prevote on this critical move so we can all see what everyone 
is thinking.

http://www.gamersx.com/messages/overview.asp?board_id=3684

99% Energy

On Tue Aug 24 15:56:04, Plain Rubbish wrote:
> It goes like this:

the bishops aren't really exchanges, we just ignore him with a white 
sq pawn fort, a kd3/e4 and a nf3!


> 
> 1. g pawn is out
> 2. h pawn will die on queening
> 3. Bishops will be exchanged
> 4. All 4 pawns of black will be lost
> 5. R+K vs. N+K is a draw

On Tue Aug 24 15:55:39, NetDogma wrote:

even in their meager 1 paragrapg dedicated to the most analyzed move 
, next to ...e6, in history, they call Rf8 a dubious move, we give 
bishop, like garri wants to do one day, then get king to c4, pawns 
e5-d5 to start and knight holds everything, we go to d4/e5 if we feel 
like it, 

Try it, I was amazed the 1st time I saw it too!!





> 33. ...Bxg3
> 34. h6 Be5
> 35. h7 Bg7
> 36. Rf8 b4
> 37. h8=Q Bxh8 
> 38. Rxh8
> 
> This does not seem like a good line to me, is there a way around it 
> if we play Bxg3??
> 
> -ND-

On Tue Aug 24 16:01:18, jarjarboy wrote:
> Let's see ... b4, lots of sober, detailed arguments. Bxg3 ... people 
> threatening to stuff ballot boxes, claiming the move is superior 
> because they're really smart, writing spam posts.
> 
> Yep, sure is a tough call.

There are sober detailed arguments on each side.
That b4 is the "mainstream" choice results in the
jackasses braying about Bxg3, but that isn't a reason
*not* to vote for it.  Vote the moves on their merits
alone.

by the way I'm still a Bxg3 fan



Grandmaster school suggested (negatively for the wrong reasons)  
33.....Bxg3  34. P-h6  B-e5  35. P-h7  B-h8

36. R-f8 N-e5  37. Rxh8!! (their exclamation marks not mine) when 37. 
B-f6 is a total crush



I have been playing those R & B verus N & pawns endings       and 
white has to avoid a whole lot of land mines



I bet Gary funds the GM School

VOTE 33………Bxg3 

On line beginning…
33 fxg3 Bxg3
34 h6   Be5
35 h7   Bg7
36 Rf8  b4
37 h8Q  Bxh8
38 Rxh8 Kd5
39 Kf1  b3
40 Rh2  Kc4
41 Ke1  Ne5
42 Kd1  Nf3
43 Rh5  e5
44 Bc1  d5

Looked at 2 white variations on move 45 using Fritz vs. Fritz running 
at 550 Mhz with a slow tournament speed (40/2.5hr) which allowed 
about a 14 to 16 ply search on both engines. Started about 10 PM EDT 
Aug 23 and finished about 5 PM EDT Aug 24 (both variations). 

Variation 1 (preferred by computer).
45 Rh7  b5
46 Rc7+ Kd3
47 Rc5  d4
48 Rxb5 Kc3
49 Rc5+ Kd3
50 Bb2  e4
51 Rb5  Kc4
Here it looks hard for white to make progress. 
52 Rb8  Ng5  
53 Ke2  Ne6
54 Rc8+ Kd5
55 Kf2  e3+
56 Kf3
Here I had already left for work, but the machine kept cranking.
56 ……   Ng5+
57 Ke2  Ne6
58 Re8  Kd6
59 Rh8  Kd5
60 Rh4  Kc4
61 Rg4  Kd5 
62 Ba3  Kc4 
63 Rh4  Kc3
64 Re4  Ng7
65 Rf4  Nh5 (up to now, the evaluation for white always >1.20)
66 Rg4  Nf6 (here the evaluation for white reaches +1.84)
67 Rg6  d3+ (……now the evaluation goes +0.28 and the action begins!)
68 Kxe3 Nd5+
69 Ke4  b2
70 Rg1  Nf6+
71 Kf3  d2
72 Ke2  Nd5
73 Bxb2+ Kc2
74 Be5  Ne3 (evaluation finally goes to 0.00)
75 Bc3  d1Q+
76 Rxd1 Nxd1
………and drawn by agreement with itself on move 82. 


And just for the record (posted earlier)………

Variation 2 (preferred by humans, given by BMcC in earlier posts)
45 Bb2  d4
46 Ke2  e4
47 Rh7  Ng1+
48 Kd1  b5
49 Rb7  Nf3
50 Rb8  e3
51 Rf8  Ng5
52 Ke2  Ne6
53 Rf5  Nc7
54 Rf4  Ne6
55 Rg4  Kd5
56 Ba1  Kc4
57 Rh4  Kd5
58 Bb2  Ke5
59 Kf3  Doesn’t look like progress.

On 59 Rh5+ black can simplify, i.e. 
59 Rh5+ Ke4
60 Rxb5 Nf4+
61 Kd1  e2+
62 Kd2  Nd3
63 Kxe2 Nxb2
64 Rxb3 drawn

(33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 
39.Kf1 b3 40. Bc1 Na5 41. Rh3 e5 42. Ke2 b5 43. Kd3 b4 44. Rh4 Kc5.

I have been unable to make even a slight dent in this position to get 
something happening for white.  That's not saying much, but somebody 
else try to refute it.

On Tue Aug 24 16:32:39, horndog187 wrote:

the 3 move line they give doesn't even consider us pushing our b 
pawn, which is our main plan, we don't care about queening, it may 
look funny at 1st, but it works!! 




> :(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue Aug 24 16:22:25, horndog187 wrote:
> 
> > by the way I'm still a Bxg3 fan
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Grandmaster school suggested (negatively for the wrong reasons)  
> 
> > 33.....Bxg3  34. P-h6  B-e5  35. P-h7  B-h8
> 
> > 
> 
> > 36. R-f8 N-e5  37. Rxh8!! (their exclamation marks not mine) when 37. 
> 
> > B-f6 is a total crush
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I have been playing those R & B verus N & pawns endings       and 
> 
> > white has to avoid a whole lot of land mines
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I bet Gary funds the GM School
>

Just for fun I ran the Bxg3 line on CM overnight last nite.  Black 
won.

This is only one line, which admittedly is of limited use, but here 
it is

33  .. bxg3
34 h6  Be5
35 h7  Bg7
36 Rf8 b4
37 h8=q  Bxh8
38 Rxh8 Kf5  

I think this line is what is being recommended by Bxg3 fans up to 
this point.  Then there follows ..

39 Bc1  Pd5
40 Kf2 Ke4
41 Ke2 Pd4
42 Rh4+ Kd5
43 Rh7  b5
44 Rh1  b3
45 Rh5+ Pe5
46 Bb2  Kc4
47 Rh8   Na5
48 Rh1  Kb4
49 Rb1  Nc4
50 Kd1   d3
51 Bc1   e4
52 Bd2+  Ka3
53 Ra1+  Kb2
54 Ra7   Kb1
55 Bf4   Pe3
56 Bxe3 Nxe3+  its over at this point
57 Kd2   Pb2
58 Ra8   b4
59 Ra6  Nc4+
60 Kd1  Na3
61 Rb6  Ka2
62 RxP  Pb1=q+
63 Rxb1 NxR
64 Kc1  Pd2+
65 Kd1  Kb3


Jim Howard

On Tue Aug 24 16:33:24, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
> (33.fxg3 Bxg3 34.h6 Be5 35.h7 Bg7 36.Rf8 b4 37.h8=Q Bxh8 38.Rxh8 Kd5 
> 39.Kf1 b3 40. Bc1 Na5 41. Rh3 e5 42. Ke2 b5 43. Kd3 b4 44. Rh4 Kc5.
> 
> I have been unable to make even a slight dent in this position to get 
> something happening for white.  That's not saying much, but somebody 
> else try to refute it. 
Or better yet, why not play 35...b4 36 Rb8 b3 37 h8=Q etc., when you 
will be a tempo ahead.  Does 35...Bg7 serve any purpose?

On Tue Aug 24 16:42:09, whining - work to be done! - 

And I think the whole attitude is off base, I am playing the move I 
think is best and i am reporting the best analysis that I can find, 
why should I run to support someone who kept me up all night 
supposedly analyzing a key variation, when b4 was a done deal. There 
was only 1 FAQ put out all day yesterday, in the biggest decision 
since Bd4/Nd4. 


Ross Amann wrote:> We have <48 hours to cover 33.Bf4/g4/Kf2 - 
loads of work in those 
> lines (we all know b4 will win the vote) - and, as I 
said earlier 
> today, I was ready to drop b4 and work on Bxg3 if it was winning.
> 
> On Tue Aug 24 16:37:11, BMcC intersting, was it a vote? (nt) wrote:
> > On Tue Aug 24 16:24:11, richard bean wrote:
> > .
> > > On Tue Aug 24 16:21:16, BMcC is this real? would like to know why? 
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Tue Aug 24 16:16:25, Computer Chess Team wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > did a line change from 5 am? 
> > > 
> > > probably, where there is a difference
> > > of opinion among computers they
> > > tend to recommend the human move.
> > > 
> > > anyway, I think we had gm suttles on our side,
> > > so it was just a judgment call... which human
> > > analysts to side with, etc.

Computers do not have a deep positional understanding and can only 
evaluate to a certain depth. They are no match for the chess masters 
and grandmasters when it comes to positional understanding.

On Wed Aug 25 04:59:58, garrubal wrote:
> I think 33. ... b4 offers more chances than 33. ... Bxg3.  
> after 33. ... b4 a possible continuation is
> 34. h6 b3
> 35. Bf4 Bh8
> 36. g4 b2
> 37. Kf2 Nb4
> 38. g5 Nd3+
> 39. Kf3 Kf5
> 40. Be3 Nc1
> 41. Kg3+ Kg6
> winning for black.  Analysis in autoplay from Hiarcs 6.0 at 10 
> minutes per move.
> 
> After 33. ... Bxg3 a possible continuation is
> 33...Bxg3 {H6: 11  33...Bxg3 h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 Bd4 Bg5 Kd7 Rf8 
> b3 h8=Q
> Bxh8 Rxh8 =    3}
> 34.h6 {H6: 10  34.h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Rf8 b4 h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 b3 Bc1 d5 Kf2 = 
>   -9}
> 34...Be5 {H6: 10  34...Be5 h7 Bg7 Rf8 b4 h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 b3 Rh6+ Ke5 
> Rh3 Kf5
> Bc1 =   12}
> 35.h7 {H6: 09  35.h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 =    0}
> 35...Bg7 {H6: 09  35...Bg7 Rf8 b4 h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 b3 Rh6+ Kd5 Bc1 e6 
> Bb2 =  
> 13}
> 36.Rf8 {H6: 08  36.Rf8 b4 h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 b3 Bc1 Kd5 Kf2 e5 Bb2 =    6}
> 36...b4 {H6: 09  36...b4 Kf2 b3 h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 b2 Rh1 Kf5 Bd2 Ne5 Ke3 
> =   -5}
> 37.h8=Q {H6: 07  37.h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 d5 Rh3 Kf5 Bd2 e5 Rh7 b3 =    5}
> 37...Bxh8 {H6: 10  37...Bxh8 Rxh8 Kf5 Bc1 e5 Kf2 d5 Ke2 b5 Bb2 b3 =  
> -31}
> 38.Rxh8 {H6: 09  38.Rxh8 Kf5 Bc1 e5 Kf2 Ke4 Ke2 Nd4+ Kd1 =   29}
> 38...Kf5 {H6: 10  38...Kf5 Bc1 d5 Kf2 Ke4 Rh7 Kd3 Bg5 b3 Bxe7 Nxe7 
> Rxe7 = 
> -39}
> 39.Bc1 {H6: 09  39.Bc1 d5 Kf2 Ke4 Rh7 b5 Rh6 Nd4 Rh4+ Kd3 =   39}
> 39...Ke4 {H6: 10  39...Ke4 Rh3 d5 Re3+ Kd4 Kf2 Kc4 Re6 b3 Bb2 =  -39}
> 40.Kf2 {H6: 09  40.Kf2 d5 Ke1 e5 Kd2 d4 Bb2 Kd5 Rh7 b5 Rd7+ Kc4 =   
> 39}
> 40...d5 {H6: 09  40...d5 Ke1 e5 Kd2 d4 Bb2 Kd5 Rh7 b5 Rd7+ Kc4 =  -37}
> 41.Rh3 {H6: 09  41.Rh3 e5 Ke2 Nd4+ Ke1 Nc6 Kd2 Kd4 Bb2+ Kc4 Rh4+ d4 = 
>   39}
> 41...d4 {H6: 10  41...d4 Bb2 e5 Ke2 Kd5 Rh7 b5 Rd7+ Kc4 Kd2 =  -27}
> 42.Ke2 {H6: 09  42.Ke2 e5 Bb2 Kd5 Rh7 b5 Rd7+ Kc4 Rc7 Kd5 =   26}
> 42...e5 {H6: 09  42...e5 Bb2 Kd5 Rh7 b5 Rd7+ Kc4 Rc7 Kd5 =  -25}
> 43.Bb2 {H6: 08  43.Bb2 b5 Kd2 Kd5 Rh5 Kc4 Rh6 Ne7 =   32}
> 43...b5 {H6: 09  43...b5 Rh4+ =  -21}
> 44.Rg3 {H6: 07  44.Rg3 Kd5 Rg5 Kc4 Rg6 Kb3 Bc1 =   17}
> 44...Kd5 {H6: 08  44...Kd5 Bc1 e4 Rg5+ Kc4 Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> 45.Bc1 {H6: 09  45.Bc1 e4 Rg5+ Kc4 Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> 45...e4 {H6: 09  45...e4 Rg5+ Kc4 Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> 46.Rg5+ {H6: 09  46.Rg5+ Kc4 Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> 46...Kc4 {H6: 10  46...Kc4 Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> 47.Rg4 {H6: 09  47.Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> 47...Kd5 {H6: 10  47...Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> 48.Rg5+ {H6: 09  48.Rg5+ Kc4 =    0}
> 48...Kc4 {H6: 10  48...Kc4 Rg4 =    0}
> 49.Rg4 {H6: 09  49.Rg4 Kd5 =    0}
> 49...Kd5 {H6: 10  49...Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> 50.Rg5+ {H6: 09  50.Rg5+ =    0}
>  1/2-1/2
> Analysis in autoplay from Hiarcs 6.0 at 10 minutes per move.

On Wed Aug 25 05:11:23, meandyg wrote:
> On Wed Aug 25 04:50:37, KerryR wrote:
> > Does anyone have the solution to this line:
> 
> A possible solution, yes. See below:
> 
> > 33 ...   b4
> > 34 Kf2   b3
> > 35 Ke2   Bxg3
> > 36 h6    b2
> > 37 h7    Be5
> > 38 Kd3   Bh8  
> > 39 Kc2   Ne5
> > 40 Bd2   ...  Here the FAQ only gives Rf8, but isn't this much 
> > better.  White threatens Bc3 menacing both the Bishop on h8 and the 
> > Pawn on b2 (our only trump).
> > I can't see any way out of this.  
> 

You're right - the proper answer seems to be 38...Nd4 
and further 39. Bd2 Nb5 (see FAQ) or e.g. 39. Kc4 Nf5 40. Kb3 Kf7 



> What about 40. ...  Nc4!?
> 
> Andy

It's bad - 41. Bc3 Ne3+ 42. Kxb2 Nxe1 43.Bxh8 

Wolf

Fritz 5.32 sez:

After 33...b4.  I looked at this position for 15 hours through a full 
15 ply.  Here is what I was looking at:

Analysis by Fritz 5.32:

(0.41): 34.Bf4 Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.g4 b2 37.g5 Nb4 38.g6 Nd3 
(0.38): 34.g4 Nd4 35.Bc1 Nc2 36.Rf3 Nd4 37.Re3 Kf6 38.Kf2 e6 
(0.28): 34.Kf2 Kf5 35.Bf4 Bf6 36.Kf3 Nd4+ 37.Kg2 b3 38.Be3+ Ke4 
(0.06): 34.h6 b3 35.Bf4 Bh8 36.g4 b2 37.Kf2 
(0.00): 34.Bd2 b3 35.Kf2 b2 36.h6 Kf5 
(-0.12): 34.Kg2 b3 35.Bf4 Bh8 36.g4 b2 37.g5 Nd4 38.g6 Ne2 
(0.00): 34.Bc1 b3 35.Kf2 b2 36.Bf4 Bh8 
(0.00): 34.Bh6 b3 35.Kf2 b2 36.Bf4 
(0.00): 34.Rb1 Bxg3 35.Bd2 Kf5 36.Bxb4 Nxb4 37.Rxb4 Kg5 38.Rxb7 Be5 
(-0.28): 34.Be3 Bxg3 35.Bf4 Bh4 36.h6 Bf6 37.Kf2 b3 38.Ke3 b2 

Fritz 5.32 sez

Any analysis to back up your statement?
Words don't have much effect without proof that backs them up.


On Wed Aug 25 05:27:49, IM2319 wrote:
> Computers do not have a deep positional understanding and can only 
> evaluate to a certain depth. They are no match for the chess masters 
> and grandmasters when it comes to positional understanding.
> 
> On Wed Aug 25 04:59:58, garrubal wrote:
> > I think 33. ... b4 offers more chances than 33. ... Bxg3.  
> > after 33. ... b4 a possible continuation is
> > 34. h6 b3
> > 35. Bf4 Bh8
> > 36. g4 b2
> > 37. Kf2 Nb4
> > 38. g5 Nd3+
> > 39. Kf3 Kf5
> > 40. Be3 Nc1
> > 41. Kg3+ Kg6
> > winning for black.  Analysis in autoplay from Hiarcs 6.0 at 10 
> > minutes per move.
> > 
> > After 33. ... Bxg3 a possible continuation is
> > 33...Bxg3 {H6: 11  33...Bxg3 h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 Bd4 Bg5 Kd7 Rf8 
> > b3 h8=Q
> > Bxh8 Rxh8 =    3}
> > 34.h6 {H6: 10  34.h6 Be5 h7 Bg7 Rf8 b4 h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 b3 Bc1 d5 Kf2 = 
> >   -9}
> > 34...Be5 {H6: 10  34...Be5 h7 Bg7 Rf8 b4 h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 b3 Rh6+ Ke5 
> > Rh3 Kf5
> > Bc1 =   12}
> > 35.h7 {H6: 09  35.h7 Bg7 Kg2 b4 Bh6 =    0}
> > 35...Bg7 {H6: 09  35...Bg7 Rf8 b4 h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 b3 Rh6+ Kd5 Bc1 e6 
> > Bb2 =  
> > 13}
> > 36.Rf8 {H6: 08  36.Rf8 b4 h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 b3 Bc1 Kd5 Kf2 e5 Bb2 =    6}
> > 36...b4 {H6: 09  36...b4 Kf2 b3 h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 b2 Rh1 Kf5 Bd2 Ne5 Ke3 
> > =   -5}
> > 37.h8=Q {H6: 07  37.h8=Q Bxh8 Rxh8 d5 Rh3 Kf5 Bd2 e5 Rh7 b3 =    5}
> > 37...Bxh8 {H6: 10  37...Bxh8 Rxh8 Kf5 Bc1 e5 Kf2 d5 Ke2 b5 Bb2 b3 =  
> > -31}
> > 38.Rxh8 {H6: 09  38.Rxh8 Kf5 Bc1 e5 Kf2 Ke4 Ke2 Nd4+ Kd1 =   29}
> > 38...Kf5 {H6: 10  38...Kf5 Bc1 d5 Kf2 Ke4 Rh7 Kd3 Bg5 b3 Bxe7 Nxe7 
> > Rxe7 = 
> > -39}
> > 39.Bc1 {H6: 09  39.Bc1 d5 Kf2 Ke4 Rh7 b5 Rh6 Nd4 Rh4+ Kd3 =   39}
> > 39...Ke4 {H6: 10  39...Ke4 Rh3 d5 Re3+ Kd4 Kf2 Kc4 Re6 b3 Bb2 =  -39}
> > 40.Kf2 {H6: 09  40.Kf2 d5 Ke1 e5 Kd2 d4 Bb2 Kd5 Rh7 b5 Rd7+ Kc4 =   
> > 39}
> > 40...d5 {H6: 09  40...d5 Ke1 e5 Kd2 d4 Bb2 Kd5 Rh7 b5 Rd7+ Kc4 =  -37}
> > 41.Rh3 {H6: 09  41.Rh3 e5 Ke2 Nd4+ Ke1 Nc6 Kd2 Kd4 Bb2+ Kc4 Rh4+ d4 = 
> >   39}
> > 41...d4 {H6: 10  41...d4 Bb2 e5 Ke2 Kd5 Rh7 b5 Rd7+ Kc4 Kd2 =  -27}
> > 42.Ke2 {H6: 09  42.Ke2 e5 Bb2 Kd5 Rh7 b5 Rd7+ Kc4 Rc7 Kd5 =   26}
> > 42...e5 {H6: 09  42...e5 Bb2 Kd5 Rh7 b5 Rd7+ Kc4 Rc7 Kd5 =  -25}
> > 43.Bb2 {H6: 08  43.Bb2 b5 Kd2 Kd5 Rh5 Kc4 Rh6 Ne7 =   32}
> > 43...b5 {H6: 09  43...b5 Rh4+ =  -21}
> > 44.Rg3 {H6: 07  44.Rg3 Kd5 Rg5 Kc4 Rg6 Kb3 Bc1 =   17}
> > 44...Kd5 {H6: 08  44...Kd5 Bc1 e4 Rg5+ Kc4 Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> > 45.Bc1 {H6: 09  45.Bc1 e4 Rg5+ Kc4 Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> > 45...e4 {H6: 09  45...e4 Rg5+ Kc4 Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> > 46.Rg5+ {H6: 09  46.Rg5+ Kc4 Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> > 46...Kc4 {H6: 10  46...Kc4 Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> > 47.Rg4 {H6: 09  47.Rg4 Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> > 47...Kd5 {H6: 10  47...Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> > 48.Rg5+ {H6: 09  48.Rg5+ Kc4 =    0}
> > 48...Kc4 {H6: 10  48...Kc4 Rg4 =    0}
> > 49.Rg4 {H6: 09  49.Rg4 Kd5 =    0}
> > 49...Kd5 {H6: 10  49...Kd5 Rg5+ =    0}
> > 50.Rg5+ {H6: 09  50.Rg5+ =    0}
> >  1/2-1/2
> > Analysis in autoplay from Hiarcs 6.0 at 10 minutes per move.

Hallo Fritz,

how are the numbers in brackets to be understood?
Does a high number (e.g. +0.41) mean a more favourable position for 
WHITE or for BLACK?

It' just me, asking

On Wed Aug 25 05:33:55, Fritz 5.32 sez: wrote:
> Fritz 5.32 sez:
> 
> After 33...b4.  I looked at this position for 15 hours through a full 
> 15 ply.  Here is what I was looking at:
> 
> Analysis by Fritz 5.32:
> 
> (0.41): 34.Bf4 Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.g4 b2 37.g5 Nb4 38.g6 Nd3 
> (0.38): 34.g4 Nd4 35.Bc1 Nc2 36.Rf3 Nd4 37.Re3 Kf6 38.Kf2 e6 
> (0.28): 34.Kf2 Kf5 35.Bf4 Bf6 36.Kf3 Nd4+ 37.Kg2 b3 38.Be3+ Ke4 
> (0.06): 34.h6 b3 35.Bf4 Bh8 36.g4 b2 37.Kf2 
> (0.00): 34.Bd2 b3 35.Kf2 b2 36.h6 Kf5 
> (-0.12): 34.Kg2 b3 35.Bf4 Bh8 36.g4 b2 37.g5 Nd4 38.g6 Ne2 
> (0.00): 34.Bc1 b3 35.Kf2 b2 36.Bf4 Bh8 
> (0.00): 34.Bh6 b3 35.Kf2 b2 36.Bf4 
> (0.00): 34.Rb1 Bxg3 35.Bd2 Kf5 36.Bxb4 Nxb4 37.Rxb4 Kg5 38.Rxb7 Be5 
> (-0.28): 34.Be3 Bxg3 35.Bf4 Bh4 36.h6 Bf6 37.Kf2 b3 38.Ke3 b2 
> 
> Fritz 5.32 sez
>

Fritz 5.32 sez:

Tell me how Crafty played 35...b4 when there is already a pawn on 
that square?

I think Crafty needs a tuneup!!

Fritz 5.32 sez


On Thu Aug 26 17:52:49, pk wrote:
> After 34...Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b4:
> 
> 16-> 218:13   0.67   36. g4 Nb4 37. g5 b2 38. Bd2 Nc2 39. h6 Na3 
> 40. g6 b1=Q 41. Rxb1 Nxb1 42. Bg5 Kf5 43. g7 Kxg5 44. g8=Q+ Kxh6 45. 
> Qf8+ Kg5 46. Qxe7+
> 
> The end position is actually mate in 22 for white:
> 
> 15     7:00 -Mat22   46. ... Bf6 47. Qe3+ Kh5 48. Qe2+ Kg5 49. Qb5+ 
> d5 50. Qxb1 Kf4 51. Qxb7 <EGTB>
> 
> Not much to learn from this, except that perhaps 36. g4 is just as 
> strong as 36. Kf3.

On Thu Aug 26 18:11:00, __GM_wanna_B wrote:
> Way to go World Team!!!
> 
> A couple of weeks ago I made several posts refering to a theme that 
> would give black a winning end game.  That theme was:
> 
> Push the b and d pawns.
> Reduce counterplay for Garri by making him react to our moves.
> 
> I submitted a number of lengthy potential lines where this theme 
> achieved an 0-1 result.  At the time of the posts I assumed Garri 
> would come up with better moves for white and that we would do no 
> worse than a draw.
> 
> It looks like we are very close to achieving this theme.  The 
> analysis from SMARTCHESS and many others is looking like black has no 
> problems.
> 
> Even so, no matter what the outcome the World Team has every reason 
> to celebrate.  We are having an awsome game against the highest rated 
> player in the world!!
> 
> Way To Go WORLD TEAM!!!!!!
> ;)


The "smartchess" analysis is suspect.  They are only posting 
dumb possibilities for Gary and then shooting them down.  They are 
"hiding" something called the truth.

Generalmoe.

On Thu Aug 26 23:04:17, hypermodern moe wrote:
> Hello world, can someone out there post a precise statement about 
> what happened today in the game?  I have read many posts about 
> "secret analysis" by Irina Krush and something about a 
> "fantasy variation".   People are posting that the world's 
> position is lost now, and that b4 was a big mistake.   Now irina has 
> stopped posting analysis.  can someone post the facts?  I don't have 
> time to read 10,000 posts.  And there might be more people like me 
> who wonder exactly what happened.

nt

On Thu Aug 26 23:27:58, Smart chess claiming e mail harass of IK 
wrote:
> On Thu Aug 26 23:22:30, have the FAQ. 
> 
> There was no doubt about Kf3, Smartchess has refused to give me 
> credit for any move since I protested their volunteers' incorrect use 
> of a post concerning me. 
>  
> I think Irina wanted to give me credit. If I was Spiriev I would post 
> her e mail. 
> 
> I called henley a cheater for refusing to keep score in an action 
> game and distracting me by forcing me to get a TD. I called Henley a 
> thief for not crediting me, when we had an e mail exchange and BBS 
> that very much benefitted the FAQ. In fact they were proving the 
> world lost! The adults at smartchess are responsible for Smartchess.
> 
> The world is in all likelihood lost, why not let her rest, the 
> microsoft users of children, probablt told them to can it, after they 
> saw how vulnerable they are to this charge of violating the child 
> labor laws. a clear violation of work time seems to have happened. 
> 

Utter garbage. This is just nuts, man. I think your losing it. Get 
some sleep or something. There isn't anything remotely connected to 
an abuse of child labor laws here. Its already been pointed out to 
you by a couple of posts. She was asked to suggest moves for the 
world team. That is all. This whole 'child labor' nonense is 
completely unfounded, and quite ridiculous.
Maybe you should go picket the USA Olympic atheletes or something, 
you know, the 6-13 year olds who spend several hours a day training? 
(figure skating, gymnastics for example).
Please, take a break and get some sleep.

On another note, your accusations against GM Henley have no place 
here. 


> 
> 
> 
>  Thanks, McCarthy. wrote:
> > "Unprovoked verbal attacks" on Irina and friends ...
> > 
> > Brian McCarthy,
> > 
> > This is mostly your doing.  If you had restrained yourself from 
> > insensitive remarks and complaints about Irina, we would still have 
> > the FAQ.
> > 
> > Would you like to take over the task of maintaining the FAQ?  Since 
> > you read everything on this BBS, perhaps you could spend the same 
> > time she and her colleagues did scanning the BBS, and put the FAQ on 
> > your website.  Your students would be impressed.
> > 
> > But that's unlikely, because it would involve work that you'd rather 
> > not do.  It's much easier to sit back and criticize someone else's 
> > work, isn't it?
> > 
> > What a jerk you are.  
> > 
> > -- Anonymous
> > 
> > -----------------------
> > SmartChess wrote:
> > 
> > we have simply terminated the FAQ file on our site. Our analysts will 
> > no longer 
> > review this bulletin board - three of our team members will continue 
> > to participate only as voters based on own their collective ideas.
> > Irina Krush feels that due to unwarranted and unprovoked verbal 
> > attacks on her and her personal friends on this BBS and via personal 
> > e-mail ...

nt

I'm trying to pick between Bd4+ and Bh8.

I've come to the conclusion that I should only play Bd4+ if
  Kg2 b3
  Kf3 Kd5
is good for us.  Otherwise, Bh8 must be at least as
good.

Thanks,

Jackie

Since many posts containing the same thoughts seem to appear 
over and over, I thought I'd develop a coding system for those people 
to conserve space and still be able to get their points acrossed.

Code WL = We have lost the game.... Garry's got us beat           
easily I predict.... We're going to lose in X           moves. ...I'm 
going since it's no point in             playing a losing game.


Code TMM! = That's my move! ... Why wasn't I                       
(or some other person) credited with that              move? ...My 
move was better, but no-one                listens to me. 

Code YSMI! = You're stealing my ideas! I said that            first! 
(A variation of the above but dealing            with more general 
lines of stategy and the            like). For example, I'm stealing 
this 'code'            idea from Plain English as we speak.

Code IS = You're all just playing like Irina's sheep.

Code YAI = You're (or some designated person is) an            idiot, 
moron, dunce, etc. 

I'm sure there are lots of others. Good luck to the World Team!

Check out this charming post:

http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/qy/50664.asp

Well done, Brian. Satisfied now?

Your transposition note below turns into the very line analyzed 
earlier (which I haven't seen refuted) of 
34 ...   Bd4+
35 Kg2   b3
36 Kf3   Kd5
37 g4    Kc4
38 g5    b2   and analysis shows white is very good here after 39 h6

On Fri Aug 27 08:07:24, meandyg wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 07:51:16, OmniBob wrote:
> > After 
> > 34.Bf4 Bd4+
> > 35.Kg2
> > it would be nice to able to move Kd5 to keep the momentum. The FAQ  
> > points that if the white gets the king to e4 we will be forced to 
> > move the bishop, losing a tempo. I've found a way to use the move 
> > 35.. Kd5 effectively, allowing us to prevent white's king from 
> > getting to e4.
> > 
> > The FAQ stated that 35.. Kd5  is busted because of 
> > 35...Kd5? 
> > 36 g4! b3
> > 37.g5! b2
> > 38.g6!+-
> > 
> > But-
> > But 37..b2 isn't the best move for Black in this line. Try 
> > 37...e5! 
> > It's important to do this move now, with white's bishop at f4 and his 
> > pawn at g5(blocking his bishop).
> > I Ran fritz to 13/31 after 37...e5 and it came up with this as the 
> > main line:
> > 38. Bg3 b2 39. h6 Ne7 40. h7 Ng6 41. Bf2 Bc3 42. Kf3 e4+
> > the other likely option is:
> > 38. Bd2  e4 39. Bf4 e3 40. h6 e2 41. Rb1 Bc3 42. Bg3 b2 
> > 
> > other moves like 38. Bh2 or 38. Bc1 are weaker.
> > 
> > There is one other choice:
> > 36. Kf3 Kc4 37. g4 b4, transposing to 35..b2 36. Kf3 Kd5 37. g4 Kc4, 
> > which looks fine for black.
> 
> This is transposing back into the line with e5 in it, isn't it??... 
> because with the king on f3, e4 becomes a better move, especially 
> when we can follow it with Ne5-d3 (or maybe even f3 or g4/g6)....
> 
> Andy
> 
> > 
> > All these lines look good, and I've decided that 35.. Kd5 is out best 
> > move. I like that in this position we take advanatge of the potential 
> > tempo we gained from 34. Bf4. Another good thing about the 37.. e5 
> > line is that if white trades the bishop for the b-pawn, we will still 
> > have another threat: the e-pawn. If you find anything else about this 
> > line that could help us, please post it.

On Fri Aug 27 08:14:09, Monarkh wrote:
> Idea Variation 36...Nb4 37.Bd2 Na6
> 
> 34...Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3 Nb4 37.Bd2 Na6 38.g4 b2 39.g5 Bh8 
> (39...Nc5 40.Be3) 40.g6 (40.Be3 Nb4-a2) Nc5
> 
> (Sorry to repost, but I never seem to get a response. Maybe I'm 
> invincible.)
> 
> - Monarkh
> http://www.stormloader.com/monarkh/KvW.html 

41. h6!

what do you do next?

On Fri Aug 27 08:24:44, (In case you missed it) wrote:
> see
> 
> http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/vm/51033.asp
> 
> KF

Thanks, I didn't know.  There's always a few who make the rest of us 
suffer.  Irina was gracious enough to share her thoughts.  She's a 
talented young lady with a big heart and I wish her well.

jerryG

A few parting words for the twit squad,


The tongue of the wise commends knowledge,
but the mouth of the fool gushes folly.  Proverbs 15:2

A fool's lips bring him strife,
and his mouth invites a beating.  Proverbs 18:6

On Fri Aug 27 09:00:34, Sylvester wrote:
> One of GKs reasons for starting this game, as I recall, was that it 
> would be an interesting experiment in group psychology. He 
> understood, better than a lot of people here I think, that the 
> worlds number one task was not to come up with good chess moves; the 
> first problem we had to solve was one of *organization*. GK would 
> easily defeat even a group of very strong players if they had no way 
> to coordinate their efforts. *Only then* would it matter if anybody 
> came up with good moves.
> 
> The world team got lucky. Since Irinas analysis appeared on the page 
> that every voter would see, *and* since Irina displayed 1) an ability 
> to write clear analyses understandable by amateurs and 2) a 
> willingness to work very hard at assimilating and coalescing the 
> ideas of strong players, she served as the organizing force for the 
> world team. Without her work, we would have been guided by the 
> analyses of Bacrot, Felecan, and Paehtz  would we still be playing 
> now? Even if we were, would the game be half as interesting and 
> educational?
> 
> As a bonus, Irina also displayed astonishing grace and maturity in 
> the face of outrageous public attacks. I am certain that I would not 
> have been able to show the same level of dignity.
> 
> But Brian McCarthy succeeded where everyone else had failed  he got 
> to Irina. As a result of his weak, nasty, adolescent, 
> attention-craving psychology, we no longer have Irinas FAQ  the 
> central, organizing point for the worlds chess thinking. We may be 
> able to come up with a substitute, but unless one of the four 
> analysts pays attention to it and can communicate its conclusions 
> effectively, it wont matter. 
> 
> Brian McCarthy may have come up with lots of brilliant moves; maybe 
> Bxg3 was our best choice, etc.; Im just an average player, I dont 
> know. What I do know, what GK knew (and BM completely missed) is that 
> all the brilliant moves in the world dont matter in this game if 
> they dont get votes. Its mainly a game of group psychology, and BM 
> may have lost it for us.
> 
> BM has achieved a level of mastery in the game of chess that most 
> people could never hope to approach. At the game of living life as a 
> decent human being, he doesnt even know how the pieces move.
> 

Brian McCarthy is a loser, whiner, crybaby and jerk.  He is immature, 
dumb, and pathetic.

On Fri Aug 27 09:00:34, Sylvester wrote:
> One of GKs reasons for starting this game, as I recall, was that it 
> would be an interesting experiment in group psychology. He 
> understood, better than a lot of people here I think, that the 
> worlds number one task was not to come up with good chess moves; the 
> first problem we had to solve was one of *organization*. GK would 
> easily defeat even a group of very strong players if they had no way 
> to coordinate their efforts. *Only then* would it matter if anybody 
> came up with good moves.
> 
> The world team got lucky. Since Irinas analysis appeared on the page 
> that every voter would see, *and* since Irina displayed 1) an ability 
> to write clear analyses understandable by amateurs and 2) a 
> willingness to work very hard at assimilating and coalescing the 
> ideas of strong players, she served as the organizing force for the 
> world team. Without her work, we would have been guided by the 
> analyses of Bacrot, Felecan, and Paehtz  would we still be playing 
> now? Even if we were, would the game be half as interesting and 
> educational?
> 
> As a bonus, Irina also displayed astonishing grace and maturity in 
> the face of outrageous public attacks. I am certain that I would not 
> have been able to show the same level of dignity.
> 
> But Brian McCarthy succeeded where everyone else had failed  he got 
> to Irina. As a result of his weak, nasty, adolescent, 
> attention-craving psychology, we no longer have Irinas FAQ  the 
> central, organizing point for the worlds chess thinking. We may be 
> able to come up with a substitute, but unless one of the four 
> analysts pays attention to it and can communicate its conclusions 
> effectively, it wont matter. 
> 
> Brian McCarthy may have come up with lots of brilliant moves; maybe 
> Bxg3 was our best choice, etc.; Im just an average player, I dont 
> know. What I do know, what GK knew (and BM completely missed) is that 
> all the brilliant moves in the world dont matter in this game if 
> they dont get votes. Its mainly a game of group psychology, and BM 
> may have lost it for us.
> 
> BM has achieved a level of mastery in the game of chess that most 
> people could never hope to approach. At the game of living life as a 
> decent human being, he doesnt even know how the pieces move.
> 
What did this guy actually do to Irina that was so bad?

Also, you talk about the psychology of the group and its ability to 
stay in one direction but I think that's just transformed the game 
into Kasparov v. Krush since a bandwagon of Irina followers was 
created that just vote blindly. Anyway, the format of this game 
creates the weakness for black one way or another.

The reason people have that impression of chess players is because it 
is true.  While in highschool and college, next to sports, chess was 
my life.  I was a high "A" player when I stopped playing, but 
as I grew up I began to see the disfuncunality of alot of the long 
time players.  Now my chess is limited to playing CM6000, a computer. 
 It is sad that such a great game is tarnished by the lack of social 
skills of a great many of it's players.  This BB has proved what is 
wrong with chess.  Those who play it!  To further my point, look at 
the only US player to be world champ.  If Fisher was not a huge 
freak, I don't know who is.  Think if we could have had someone like 
MJ (Micheal Jordan for all you non-well-round chess players) as 
ambassador for chess (i.e. world champ); the game would be 
flourishing with never seen before popularity.    All should afford 
everyone here the same respect they would give them face to face.  To 
those of you who it applies to, "Grow up"!


On Fri Aug 27 09:37:30, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
> As I log on this morning and see that SmartChess has been driven 
> away, I'm going to add my 2 cents and move on.  Brian McKillJoy made 
> a comment regarding the sad state of world chess, what with the 
> championship politics, etc.  But from my point of view the real 
> problem that chess faces is its image among the general public, which 
> is critical to the success of any sport. Most people have the 
> impression that the people who are attracted to chess are 
> socially-challenged geeks, dorks, goofballs, dweebs and other 
> assorted misfits who base far too much of their ego on how well they 
> can move pieces around a game board (hint: a normal person bases 
> 0% of his ego on this) and were somewhere else when God handed 
> out the ability to interact normally with other human beings.  Brian 
> has done a lot to dispel that impression.
> 
> Not.
> 
> This game had me really fired up about chess again, which is 
> ostensibly the reason that Kasparov wanted to hold this event in the 
> first place.  Now the challenge is not to let socially-challenged 
> nimrods ruin that feeling.  If there is a next time, a moderated 
> forum is clearly a necessity.  Now back to the game.

On Fri Aug 27 10:00:08, BlauDanau wrote:

I will do what I see fit to do. I have spent months on a BBS with the 
entire US women's gymnastics squad when they were being harassed. I 
understand the mentality of a 15 yr old better than most. I am still 
going to school and studying with 21 yr olds. 

Why not try to defend their slimy conduct or the fact that every 
master here condemmed it?? 

Why not admit it will probably cost us the game? 
I am glad I got Irina a week off.


> At least Spiriev had the decency to do both of the above.

Unless you ENJOY getting the vast majority of people to HATE you, you 
might want to consider modifying your behavior; otherwise, have a 
ball :)

On Fri Aug 27 10:06:39, Dubravko Mazur wrote:
> Fully agree with your statements. My problem now is, how can BBS 
> "jungle of lines" be refined without coordination?! 

It's very difficult.  Hopefully SmartChess' people will still read 
the board and look at the world team ideas, and still reflect that in 
Irina's recommendation.  Even a one-way information flow would be 
helpful. Otherwise whatever analysis is hashed out here will be 
overshadowed by the other MSN analysts who certainly don't interact 
with the WT.  It's hard to say because we really don't know the 
habits of the people who vote.  Do they follow the BBS much?  If so, 
how many?  GM School will now be a larger focal point, but they are 
busy with Las Vegas and don't update their analysis as quickly as 
things change on the BBS.  If I were retired I would volunteer to 
collect the lines, but I work fulltime.  *Shrug*.  I guess we'll just 
have to suck it up, keep on truckin' and see what happens.  For now I 
would recommend working on 36...b2 primarily, with the threat of an 
opportune Nb4, as that seems to maintain even chances for us, and in 
some lines even seems to give us an edge.

On Fri Aug 27 09:37:30, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
> As I log on this morning and see that SmartChess has been driven 
> away, I'm going to add my 2 cents and move on.  Brian McKillJoy made 
> a comment regarding the sad state of world chess, what with the 
> championship politics, etc.  But from my point of view the real 
> problem that chess faces is its image among the general public, which 
> is critical to the success of any sport. Most people have the 
> impression that the people who are attracted to chess are 
> socially-challenged geeks, dorks, goofballs, dweebs and other 
> assorted misfits who base far too much of their ego on how well they 
> can move pieces around a game board (hint: a normal person bases 
> 0% of his ego on this) and were somewhere else when God handed 
> out the ability to interact normally with other human beings.  Brian 
> has done a lot to dispel that impression.
> 
> Not.
> 
> This game had me really fired up about chess again, which is 
> ostensibly the reason that Kasparov wanted to hold this event in the 
> first place.  Now the challenge is not to let socially-challenged 
> nimrods ruin that feeling.  If there is a next time, a moderated 
> forum is clearly a necessity.  Now back to the game.

I agree. Although normally I'm against board monitors, one was surely 
needed here. If Brian would have just stuck to analysis, he would 
have done okay, but his over-inflated ego, coupled with his emotional 
retardedness, would not allow him to stick to the task. He insisted 
on everything being HIS for one, where it was not. (I found Be5 as 
well). When he didn't get his way, he started insulting and creating 
fantasy's against those he felt were in his way. (Irina's team, 
Smartchess for example). I suggest we try to ignore him, don't 
respond to any of his posts, and if he does post analysis, we can 
give it a look and move on. (I myself never bothered looking at his 
stuff).

White and Black queens come and go to squares next to me,analysts 
argue bitterly amongst themselves and the Black King seems 
permanently attached to me from a variety of different squares. Can I 
just get to move with my trusty friend the knight to support me as 
always before this game/argument finishes?

Or perhaps you prefer "BITCHY RAM NARC"?

Cheers, .....Len Pickling.....

What does this voting tells us ?

Obviously loosing movess such as 

e5-f4
c6-d4
e5-f6

get more votes than Bh8. Does this BBS has any influence on voting at 
all ?

Go World |

Irina can work in my kitchen if she wants to!


On Fri Aug 27 12:10:33, warning contain insulting material  wrote:
> I hate to say this but the recent fiasco is just another successful 
> msn experience of the world situation to show that why women cannot 
> be a leader.  They are a weak human being always prone to pressure 
> and such that make them unsuitable to herd people.
> To Irina and SmartChess, thank you for your help so far.
> Please prove me wrong Irina.
> You all are welcome to disagree with me.

do you wan't to be responsible for global recession?

Antti, 
Thank you for your hard work, and let's hope they return.


On Fri Aug 27 12:15:25, IM2429 wrote:
> They have been attacked before, by Spiriev, by some sick 
> "phedophile" as they described it themselves, by the sickest 
> person on this BBS aka GM2505, by various persons on email. But they 
> have stood it for two months. Why to quit now?? Just change the 
> e-mail address and continue working with us. And to silence all the 
> credit whiners, just take all names from the FAQ. I apologize if it 
> hurted your feelings that I called your analysis yesterday 
> "secret fantasy variations". The secret analysis thing just 
> pissed me off. But people have short memory, and we all make 
> mistakes. Who cares if 33...Bxg3 would have drawn, so would have 
> 18...e6, 19...Be5, 26...d5, 27...b5 allso. I hope its just a 
> coincidence that you leave when for the first time during this game 
> we/you realise the world team is in very bad position, maybe losing. 
> Dont give up, there still is a chance!
> 
> 
> Why I think we still has a chance:
> 
> 34...Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3 it has been extensively analysed that the 
> game will continue very probably to this position, now what kind of 
> plans black has?
> 
> 
> plan a) bring the King support the b-pawn; i.e. 36...Kd5 doesnt work: 
> white advances his pawns and then sacs the bishop to b-pawn winning 
> immediately. 36...Kd5 37.g4 Kc4 38.g5 b2 39.h6 Nd8 40.g6 Ne6 41.Be3 
> Be5 42.Rb1 Kd3 43.Bc1! and wins
> 
> plan b) bring the Knight to support b-pawn; i.e. 36...Nb4 doesnt work 
> either 37.Bd2! Nc2 38.Ke4 b2 39.Kd3 Na3 40.Kxd4 b1=Q 41.Rxb1 Nxb1 
> 42.Bb4 and wins, 37.Ke2 is maybe good allso
> 
> 
> plan c) tie some white piece/some of white pieces to b-pawn, stay 
> defensive and attack the g- and h-pawns! This is the only suitable 
> plan in this position IMO and it may work. The game is very bad for 
> us, but not over yet!
> 
> 
> e.g. 36...b2 37.Ke4 Bh8 38.Kd3 Kf5 39.Kc2 Kg4 40.h6 take a look at 
> this position white pawns do not look so threatening anymore and 
> b2-pawn is still bugging white. Working on this position to find 
> survival chances may still save us:
> 
> Heres one preliminary try: 40...Kh5 41.Bd2 (or Rh1+) Kg6 42.Rh1 Kh7 
> and now:
> 
> c1) 43.Bc3 Bxc3 44.Kxc3 Ne5 (44...b1=Q!? 45.Rxb1 Kxh6) 45.Kxb2 Ng4 
> with drawing chances
> 
> c2) 43.g4 Ne5 44.g5 Nc4 45.Bb4 Kg6! and again drawing chances
> 
> c3) 43.Kb1!? (eliminating ...Nd4+ tricks and forcing black to move) 
> 43...b5!? and its not so easy to find move for white either.
> 
> 
> d) other possible plans (like advancing the centre pawns) and on 
> tactical motives based tries (like 36...Bh8!?) should be checked allso
> 
> 
> Remember that a truth about a certain position has nothing to do with 
> who are playing. If there still is a draw and we find it, Kasparov 
> can do nothing to prevent us from achieving it.
> 
> 
> And not much work is needed anymore, if its a draw or if its not 
> should be clear well before the 40 move. 
> Only few days, less than a week more Smart Chess and we are done with 
> this game, with a draw or loss. If loss Id prefer rather to lose 
> trying than by simply giving up. Id estimate that about 100-200 
> players have closely followed this game from the very beginning and 
> taken part to discussions here at the BBS. Its a disappointment to 
> many to give up only a couple of moves before the very end.
> 
> 
> I'll continue working on this game as part of my chess training, but 
> will post my analysis here only if it helps something. w/o FAQ it 
> doesnt. And Im not here to chat. So if Smart Chess doesnt return; 
> bye, bye, was fun as long as it lasted.
> 
> IM2429

Here are some of my lines after 35. Kg2 Kd5:
36. g4 b3 37. g5 e5! and now:
38. Bg3 b2 39. h6 Ne7 40. h7 Ng6 41. Bf2 Bc3 42. Kf3 e4
or:
38. Bd2  e4 39. Bf4 e3 40. h6 e2 41. Rb1 Bc3 42. Bg3 b2

These lines both look very good for black, so white might avoid them 
by playing 36. Kf3. After that if we play Kc4, we lose. There's a 
very long refutation of that move. Here is one good continuation 
after 36. Kf3:

36.. e5 37. Be3 e4+ 38. Ke2 Bc3 39. h6 b3 40. g4 b2 41. g5 Ne7, 
leading to a tough and interesting game for both sides.

Note that in that line, there are several alternatives for both sides 
at several moves. After 36. Kf3, black can also play Bh8 or b3. 
Please post anything useful you find about the lines after 35.. Kd5, 
and be sure to vote for it!

On Fri Aug 27 13:07:01, Amasa Delano wrote:
> 
> 
> 34. Bf4  Bd4+
> 35. Kg2  b3
> 36. Kf3  Nb4
> 37. Bd2!       (Ke4 allows 37..Bc3!)
>         and now:
> A) 37... Nc2? 38.Ke4! 
>     A1) 38...Bh8 39.Kd3 Na3 40.Bc3 b2 41.Bxh8 b1=Q 42.Rxb1 Nxb1 43.g4 
> 1-0      
>     A2) 38...Na3 39.Kxd4 b2 40.h6 1-0
>     A3) 38...d5+ 39.Kd3 Kd6 40.Bc3 white advantage.
> 
> B) 37... Na6 38.g4 b2 39.Ke4! (better than 39.g5 Bh8 40.g6 Nc5) 
>     B1) 39...Bh8 40.Kd3 Nc5+ 41.Kc2 Ne4 42.Bb4 Nf6 43.Re1+  followed 
> by 44.Bc3 
>     B2) 39...Bd5 40.Kd3 Nc5+ 41.Kc2 Ne4 42.Bb4 Nf6 43.Rg1 and black 
> has a difficult fight to draw in a probable endgame R+p vs. B+p

The proper reply is 36.....kd5+
and black is good

Irini needs her cherry popped, virgins don't make good chess 
players...

On Fri Aug 27 14:48:21, DK wrote:

Please lie to us some more and disgrace our intelligence by 
pretending to know more than real pro players, even though no analyst 
left or their clown sponsors have ever played chess for a living!


> 
> Cool 
> 
> check it out :)
> 
> http://209.54.94.35/WOGV/
> 
> 
> DK

On Fri Aug 27 14:40:32, Ak wrote:
> WT Members,
> 
> I am volunteering to maintain FAQ. Since I am only an average chess 
> player I will just take moves from BBS and update them in FAQ. Don't 
> expect any analysis from me. Also it will be only on time permits 
> basis. I have a full time job and will update FAQ as time permits.
> 
> Moves will not be credited. Basis for my FAQ will be last FAQ 082601. 
> If any FAQ was released after that you can send me a copy and I will 
> use that as the base FAQ.
>   
> Also someone will have to host this FAQ. 99%energy ?, Khaled 
> Zohair ?
> 
> Go World !
> 
> 

I'm appalled matters have deteriorated to the cancellation of the 
SmartFAQ and like most of us I didn't see it coming either. I can't 
play my way out of a paper bag so personally have no intention 
whatever of even attempting to contribute further to this game or 
discussion without the SmartFAQ, which broadly speaking has been the 
only viable attempt (and almost without exception successfully) for 
the best ideas to be harvested. If Ron Henley and Paul Hodges can be 
prevailed upon to altruistically reconsider this entirely 
understandable decision and continue to collate likely ideas for the 
rest of the game, we should petition them to please do so.  Generous 
though your offer is, I think it requires not only GM skills but a 
significant amount of resources to keep constantly updating a FAQ so 
it's sharp and as reliable as feasibly possible - I don't see who 
else but SmartChess would have the necessary skills or time resources 
to bring to it - GM School, welcome though it is - does not 
pro-actively interact with the BBS the way Smartchess did - so at 
present comes a very poor and frankly unworkable second. 

IM2429 has a point re his no credits FAQ idea to solve the back 
biting on that issue and generously is prepared to forgo his own if 
all are removed - but would all the significant contributers agree to 
such an arrangement? If Brian McC says he will (does it seem likely 
after the fuss he made to get credits?)  it might conceivably be 
worth petitioning the idea to Smartchess.

The web page  petitioning SmartChess seems our best move right now!

***********************************************

Petition to get the Smartchess FAQ restored here

http://209.54.94.35/WOGV/

************************************************

My comments about the enfant terrible BMcC disgracefully calling GM 
Ron Henley "scum" (which would alone be grounds enough for 
Irana's message) I decided, after short reflection, to delete before 
hitting "post message" here because I wouldn't want to try to 
second guess which particular straw finally broke the proverbial 
Smartchess camel's back. I guess a number of excitable things were 
said which no doubt are now largely regretted by all whether they'll 
admit it or not. 

Unless the SmartChess FAQ is restored or a 100% FAQsimile (ouch) 
found I believe there's little point in posting analysis here.


***********************************************

Petition to get the Smartchess FAQ restored here

http://209.54.94.35/WOGV/

************************************************

On Fri Aug 27 15:00:12, Blind black shhep, please feed me more crap 
wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 14:48:21, DK wrote:
> 
> Please lie to us some more and disgrace our intelligence by 
> pretending to know more than real pro players, even though no analyst 
> left or their clown sponsors have ever played chess for a living!
> 
> 
> > 
> > Cool 
> > 
> > check it out :)
> > 
> > http://209.54.94.35/WOGV/
> > 
> > 
> > DK

Copy of vote 

>Name: Konstantin 
> Ip: 212.46.200.67 
> Time: Fri Aug 27 16:39:29 1999 
> Email: mashkov@neva.spb.ru 
> Click here if you would like to see the FAQ back!:Yes 
> Click here if you do not!:

Four people have voted at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/9383/vote.htm
(although one person tried to vote 3 times)
The results are:

GM Chess School: 2
GM Suttles:      1
Brian McCarthy:  1(the guy who voted 3 times)

(Repost)


Irina and SmartChess,

Sometimes during this game I had different opinions than you, but you 
certainly know that It's normal inside a democratic process like this 
one. Few times I had preffered Bracot analyzes than the ones 
presented by you and SmartChess. Nothing abnormal here...It's just a 
question of perception, appreciation and feelings about this 
extraordinary game. 

Others times I was happy to support your moves because they were the 
best for us to play. In my thought I give you full credit for 10. 
...Qe6!, because we may had lose sooner with 10. ...0-0, and with 
this novelty we bring Garry in a no man land. At my humble opinion 
that is the factor why we are still alive at this time. 

Irina when you decided to come in this BBS you was enrolled in 
politic. And in politic It's normal to receive oppositions. It's a 
different chessboard with some though rules. 

Young woman you are a chess prodigy on the chessboard, but today I 
didn't want you to loose the political chess game. Show to the world 
that you have character, react like an American with honor. 

Accept the fact that It's normal to receive critics, blames, to be 
misunderstood by chess players. Come on Irina everybody know that 
this game is 100% politic. Please, don't be naive, you are a 
clever girl!

I almost quit this BBS twice but I couldn't do it for this reasons.

Think about this,

Michel Gagne C.M.
www.michelgagne.com


P.S. Irina my luggage's full of insults against me still the move one 
and I'm still here. ( > :

If I read the message from Irina correctly, it said she will still be 
recommending moves along with the other analyst.  So what is all the 
panic about?

This is a perfect time in the game for this to happen.  We will still 
get the bennefit of her analysis through her recommendation.  We just 
will not be able to see the analysis behind it.  And niether will 
anyone else (GK).

So let's have fun with the remainder of this game.

Go World Team!!
;)

I'm just wondering if this shows that there is less than 1% of 
the voters who read the BBS.  Considering MSN gets 5000-7000 votes.

On Fri Aug 27 16:37:01, JOC(june29_70) When Pigs Fly! (LINK) wrote:
> http://guestbook.cgi.net/WOGV/
> 
> John
> http://now.at/chess/

My idea is 35. Kg2 Kd5! I have shown that this line is good for black 
and gives us better chances than 35.. b3. At move 36 white has 2 
important options: g4 or Kf3.
First, here are some g4 lines:
35. Kg2 Kd5 36. g4 b3 37. g5 e5! 38. Bg3 b2 39. h6 Ne7 40. h7 Ng6 41. 
Bf2 Bc3 42. Kf3 e4+
or,
35. Kg2 Kd5 36. g4 b3 37. g5 e5! 38. Bd2  e4 39. Bf4 e3 40. h6 e2 41. 
Rb1 Bc3 42. Bg3 b2

These lines both look good for black, so it's very likely that white 
will play 36. Kf3 to avoid them. After 36. Kf3, black has 3 main 
options: b3, Bh8, or e5(Kc4 has been refuted!) My favorite choice is 
e5. Here's my current e5 line(not the ONLY line, but a very likely 
one):
35. Kg2 Kd5 36. Kf3 e5! 37. Be3 e4+ 38. Ke2 Be5 39. g4 b3 40. g5 Ne7 
41. g6 b2 42. Bg5 Nf5, and I prefer black's position. I'm sure there 
are some improvements for both sides, but they are probably very 
minor. Please feel free to add to the analysis, and vote for 35.. Kd5!

If Kasparov

Rd1 and then his advance through the H file is strong?

34..Bd4+
35Kg2 b3
36Kf3 b2
37g4  Nb4
38Ke2 Kd5 
39Be3!  

And now:
39    ...Bc3!
   
 A)40. Rb1 Nc2 
 B)40. h6  Nc2 
 C)40. g5  Nc2 
 D)40. Ke2 Nc2 

Need help pushing these four lines further ( obviously)
but all lead to placing Knight at a3

NT

Just like I was showing (just bellow your post) you are also showing 
that there is no need for doom & gloom. I, also, feel that our 
position is preferable to Black's position. As a matter of fact we 
were in command of this whole game and if it wasn't for some mistakes 
(not playing e6 or d5 when it was called for) we could've won this 
game.



On Fri Aug 27 16:44:06, OmniBob wrote:
> My idea is 35. Kg2 Kd5! I have shown that this line is good for black 
> and gives us better chances than 35.. b3. At move 36 white has 2 
> important options: g4 or Kf3.
> First, here are some g4 lines:
> 35. Kg2 Kd5 36. g4 b3 37. g5 e5! 38. Bg3 b2 39. h6 Ne7 40. h7 Ng6 41. 
> Bf2 Bc3 42. Kf3 e4+
> or,
> 35. Kg2 Kd5 36. g4 b3 37. g5 e5! 38. Bd2  e4 39. Bf4 e3 40. h6 e2 41. 
> Rb1 Bc3 42. Bg3 b2
> 
> These lines both look good for black, so it's very likely that white 
> will play 36. Kf3 to avoid them. After 36. Kf3, black has 3 main 
> options: b3, Bh8, or e5(Kc4 has been refuted!) My favorite choice is 
> e5. Here's my current e5 line(not the ONLY line, but a very likely 
> one):
> 35. Kg2 Kd5 36. Kf3 e5! 37. Be3 e4+ 38. Ke2 Be5 39. g4 b3 40. g5 Ne7 
> 41. g6 b2 42. Bg5 Nf5, and I prefer black's position. I'm sure there 
> are some improvements for both sides, but they are probably very 
> minor. Please feel free to add to the analysis, and vote for 35.. Kd5!

I like 35...Kd5, but your second 36.g4 line fails to 40. Kf3! Maybe 
39...Ne7. 
 
On Fri Aug 27 16:44:06, OmniBob wrote:
> My idea is 35. Kg2 Kd5! I have shown that this line is good for black 
> and gives us better chances than 35.. b3. At move 36 white has 2 
> important options: g4 or Kf3.
> First, here are some g4 lines:
> 35. Kg2 Kd5 36. g4 b3 37. g5 e5! 38. Bg3 b2 39. h6 Ne7 40. h7 Ng6 41. 
> Bf2 Bc3 42. Kf3 e4+
> or,
> 35. Kg2 Kd5 36. g4 b3 37. g5 e5! 38. Bd2  e4 39. Bf4 e3 40. h6 e2 41. 
> Rb1 Bc3 42. Bg3 b2
> 
> These lines both look good for black, so it's very likely that white 
> will play 36. Kf3 to avoid them. After 36. Kf3, black has 3 main 
> options: b3, Bh8, or e5(Kc4 has been refuted!) My favorite choice is 
> e5. Here's my current e5 line(not the ONLY line, but a very likely 
> one):
> 35. Kg2 Kd5 36. Kf3 e5! 37. Be3 e4+ 38. Ke2 Be5 39. g4 b3 40. g5 Ne7 
> 41. g6 b2 42. Bg5 Nf5, and I prefer black's position. I'm sure there 
> are some improvements for both sides, but they are probably very 
> minor. Please feel free to add to the analysis, and vote for 35.. Kd5!

E-mail notification has now been turned off after 60 plus votes!

You see, we did them a favor.

I know this is a stretch, but really it's not more absurd than this 
whole "child labor" nonsense that's been flying around here, 
thanks to McYouKnowWho.  When I was 15 I would often stay up until 
all hours studying chess positions BECAUSE I ENJOYED IT.  I bet that 
was the case with Irina too, but now the person who has contributed 
the MOST to her NOT enjoying this anymore (yes, even more than 
"you know who"), has the audacity to claim that he has done 
her a favor.

You claim to be a god-fearing man Brian McCarthy.  In that case I 
highly suggest you have a serious heart to heart with your God about 
your behavior on this bulletin board (In the meantime I'll go do 
likewise, so don't flame back at me for being a hypocrite -- I'm a 
wretched sinner too).  I really mean this in a helpful spirit.  
You'll feel a lot better if you own up to your actions -- even if 
just to yourself, as opposed to an open forum like this BBS.

Sincerely

George Jempty aka BlauDanau

Investiagted this duncan settles line
cant find the flaw

34..Bd4+
35Kg2 b3
36Kf3 b2
37g4  Nb4
38Ke2 Kd5 
39Be3!  
And now:39    ...Bc3! 
  
 A)40. Rb1 Nc2  Black wins
 B)40. h6  Nc2  Black wins
 C)40. g5  Nc2  Black wins 
 D)40. Ke2 Nc2  Black wins

On Fri Aug 27 17:20:14, Blipwort wrote:
> Investiagted this duncan settles line
> cant find the flaw
> 
> 34..Bd4+
> 35Kg2 b3
> 36Kf3 b2
> 37g4  Nb4
> 38Ke2 Kd5 
> 39Be3!  
> And now:39    ...Bc3! 
>   
>  A)40. Rb1 Nc2  Black wins
>  B)40. h6  Nc2  Black wins
>  C)40. g5  Nc2  Black wins 
>  D)40. Ke2 Nc2  Black wins

Expect players like IM2429 and Ross Amann have ideas about that - but 
without the FAQ restored I don't think they'll bother to post 
analysis or refutations - no point if it can't be collated - I'm 
afraid I agree with them. 

DK
***********************************************

Petition to get the Smartchess FAQ restored here

http://209.54.94.35/WOGV/

************************************************
copy and paste to all messages

Omni

I've been working on Ne5 for quite some time (posted to DK for a 
little help see 15:49:21) and have found it withstands everything I 
can throw at it.  I'll try to continue analyzing with you, appreciate 
your help as well.  Will be out vacationing this weekend, good luck 
with 35, I should be able to get access to a computer to vote.

On Fri Aug 27 17:20:14, Blipwort wrote:
> Investiagted this duncan settles line
> cant find the flaw
> 
> 34..Bd4+
> 35Kg2 b3
> 36Kf3 b2

36.g4   b2
37.g5.  Nb4
38.g6   Nc2
39.h6   Ne3
40.g7   and White wins!







> 37g4  Nb4
> 38Ke2 Kd5 
> 39Be3!  
> And now:39    ...Bc3! 
>   
>  A)40. Rb1 Nc2  Black wins
>  B)40. h6  Nc2  Black wins
>  C)40. g5  Nc2  Black wins 
>  D)40. Ke2 Nc2  Black wins

On Fri Aug 27 17:30:34, MattD wrote:
> Checking in on the progress of the game this evening, I see now that 
> Irina will no longer be checking this board or providing a FAQ. I 
> understand her motives; I have not actually read the messages 
> insulting her, but such is life on the Internet . . .
> 
> A few thoughts before I sign off:
> 
> The votes of the analysts are going to be played.
> 
> If no analysts are viewing it, this discussion board is pointless for 
> the purpose of formulating a team strategy, though it may still offer 
> interesting dialogue on the game itself.
> 
> I suspect the analysts (Irina, at least) will still check the 
> recommendations of the GM school (and other sites?) before posting 
> her vote. A world-team member who has vital analysis can still 
> influence this game through these alternate sites, since they have 
> links for analysis and discussion. Such analysis will need to be 
> posted in an even more timely fashion, however.
> 
> If the game is GM-winnable (or GM-drawable) at this point, Irina 
> probably has a better chance WITHOUT publishing her FAQ, since then 
> GK can simply look for holes in it.
> 
> If the game is only Super-GM-drawable (if you'll pardon the coinage), 
> then Irina is really letting down the team by negating the 
> effectiveness of this BBS.
> 
> With that said, of course Irina is the one who promoted the 
> effectiveness of this BBS in the first place, who has made this an 
> exciting and informative match, who has gone to unfathomable efforts 
> in the analysis of each move.
> 
> We can hope that she'll do some lurking . . .

It would be in contridiction to her stated position unless she can be 
persuaded otherwise - and lurking here will be pointless without the 
very few stronger players we have posting and more importantly 
interacting in real time with the postings. I HATE not to be talking 
analysis - but I think a number of us now recognize, whether we like 
it or not, our forced move is to persuade SmartChess to reconsider or 
this experiment dies here. 

DK

***********************************************

Petition to get the Smartchess FAQ restored here

http://209.54.94.35/WOGV/

************************************************

The jerk finally did it. He chased away the only link between these 
bbs and the analysts. Now not a damn thing anyone publishes here will 
mean sh*t, because we know Bacrot, Felican, and Paehtz never bothered 
to visit this forum, which has now become a 3-ring circus.

Voting for who will maintain the new FAQ ? Are you all insane?? It 
will be fun to watch the "winner" try to put in as many 
man-hours as smartchess did, and it will all be for naught - since no 
analysts read these boards anymore (and you can't blame them). 

Claiming Irina "bailed out" on the team is a god-damn joke. 
She gave us many many weeks (months?) of help and kindness. None of 
the other msn coached EVER posted here, and i dont see the captain 
attacking them relentlessly. Irina was the driving force behind all 
our early efforts, and used our ideas frequently. Even when she 
agrred with our analysis and changed her recommended move, she was 
criticized by idiots who said she was flip-flopping. 

People must be leaving these boards in droves - and I don't mean the 
10-20 "regular" posters. The people who just read these bbs 
to learn and enjoy chess now have no reason to wade through all the 
malice and vile crap spewing from some very bitter and maladjusted 
people. 

There is no reason to visit these bbs anymore for me, so I will never 
see the verbal attacks that will follow this posting (I think one 
idiot replies to EVERY thread).

Also- Irina's arrangement with microsoft is no business of ours, and 
it was Garry's choice to have talented young players as coaches.

Someday, Irina Krush will be world Women's Champion, and we will all 
remember that there was an idiot on the bbs that once attacked her 
and ruined the event for many of us. Nobody will remember HIS name....

In closing - ask Captain Zarkov about the years he spent LIVING IN 
HIS VAN, traveling around as a chess bum (that's how he accumulated 
all those grand-prix points). Several players actually protested to 
TD's due to the smell of the unbathed dreg.

I am sorry he lives in Tennesee now, I was looking forward to 
"speaking" to him if I saw him around
the NY/NJ area.

goodbye teammates - it was fun (until HE showed up)

This looks very convincing. It's funny to see the computer evaluation 
drop from +1.67 or something to zero or below.

I had posted a similar idea (see 
http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/et/51874.asp) but 
believed the K should go to g7. But you may be right with your remark 
that this "eventually drops a tempo, and interferes with the 
bishop."
 

On Fri Aug 27 17:10:41, QUARK! wrote:
> [...]

> 34 Bf4  Bd4+
> 35 Kg2  b3
> 36 Kf3  Kf7!? (ugly, but?)
> 37 Ke4  Kg8   (Kg7 actually loses, it eventually drops a tempo, and 
> interferes with the bishop.)
> 
> 38 g4  
> 
> On 38 Kd5!? b2  39 g4 Bh8  40 Ke6 Nd4+  41 Kxe7 Nb5  42 Bh6 Nc3  43 
> Rf8+ Kh7  44 g5 b1Q  45 Rf7+ a perpetual.
> 
> 38   b2
> 39 g5   Bh8   
> 40 Kd3  b5! (Now the Knight can support the b pawn.)
> 41 g6   Na5
> 42 h6   Nc4
> 43 g7   Bxg7
> 44 Rg1  Na3
> 45 Rxg7+ Kh8
> 46 Rg1  b1Q
> 47 Rxb1 Nxb1  Blacks up, but I think this is drawn.
> [...]

n/t

I agree. For one, I wouldn't want to commit the time and effort on a 
discussion board just in the HOPE that it would have significance 
toward the game being played. Far too much soursporting to make the 
dialogue entertaining for its own sake.

For my part (assuming SmartChess, Ron and Irina cannot be persuaded), 
I'd rather spend the time at the GM school site.

Well . . . I should say that I've enjoyed much of the comraderie 
here. It's been fun.


On Fri Aug 27 17:39:41, DK wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 17:30:34, MattD wrote:
> > Checking in on the progress of the game this evening, I see now that 
> > Irina will no longer be checking this board or providing a FAQ. I 
> > understand her motives; I have not actually read the messages 
> > insulting her, but such is life on the Internet . . .
> > 
> > A few thoughts before I sign off:
> > 
> > The votes of the analysts are going to be played.
> > 
> > If no analysts are viewing it, this discussion board is pointless for 
> > the purpose of formulating a team strategy, though it may still offer 
> > interesting dialogue on the game itself.
> > 
> > I suspect the analysts (Irina, at least) will still check the 
> > recommendations of the GM school (and other sites?) before posting 
> > her vote. A world-team member who has vital analysis can still 
> > influence this game through these alternate sites, since they have 
> > links for analysis and discussion. Such analysis will need to be 
> > posted in an even more timely fashion, however.
> > 
> > If the game is GM-winnable (or GM-drawable) at this point, Irina 
> > probably has a better chance WITHOUT publishing her FAQ, since then 
> > GK can simply look for holes in it.
> > 
> > If the game is only Super-GM-drawable (if you'll pardon the coinage), 
> > then Irina is really letting down the team by negating the 
> > effectiveness of this BBS.
> > 
> > With that said, of course Irina is the one who promoted the 
> > effectiveness of this BBS in the first place, who has made this an 
> > exciting and informative match, who has gone to unfathomable efforts 
> > in the analysis of each move.
> > 
> > We can hope that she'll do some lurking . . .
> 
> It would be in contridiction to her stated position unless she can be 
> persuaded otherwise - and lurking here will be pointless without the 
> very few stronger players we have posting and more importantly 
> interacting in real time with the postings. I HATE not to be talking 
> analysis - but I think a number of us now recognize, whether we like 
> it or not, our forced move is to persuade SmartChess to reconsider or 
> this experiment dies here. 
> 
> DK
> 
> ***********************************************
> 
> Petition to get the Smartchess FAQ restored here
> 
> http://209.54.94.35/WOGV/
> 
> ************************************************
> 
>  
>

Because It's not the American way to quit, to run away, to hide, that 
will be a dishonor for United States, a country inside of the Team 
World.

If not, well, all of this wipping look like a big masquerade! And, I 
feel big shame for every one they are on their knees right now? 

Come on SmartChess put your EGO away, and show us some courage, 
patience, determination, braver.

If not, you are not at the level of those one they had searching for 
Private Ryan during WWII. 

If you can't support insults you didn't have character.

Thinks a little bit further.

Just my opinion!

Michel Gagne C.M.

On Fri Aug 27 17:58:42, David wrote:

Your parabols suck, so do you, fairy.
> That includes your "knee" and "tongue" also... 
> "Believe it or NOT!" You will never be able to run and hide 
> from the TRUTH! Always remember that eternity is forever! God bless, 
> and may He forgive you. - David
> 
> On Fri Aug 27 17:51:46, Not a believer wrote:
> > On Fri Aug 27 17:48:30, David wrote:
> > > Amazing! This is truly astounding!
> > > 
> > > The world news has just reported that black sheep are running amuck 
> > > all over the world!
> > > 
> > > Astonishing!
> > > 
> > > Can this be a sign of what is to come in the very near future? A mere 
> > > chess game to show the world an example? Yes, my friends, sadly this 
> > > is exactly the way masses of people will react when the world 
> > > tragedy, described in the BIBLE, in the BOOK of "Revelation" 
> > > happens! People everywhere will give up hope thinking that there is 
> > > no hope. But always remember this:
> > > 
> > > "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in 
> > > heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
> > > And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to 
> > > the glory of God the Father." - Philippians 2:10,11 - Amen!
> > > 
> > > It is very difficult for me to believe that masses of people are so 
> > > easily led into giving up hope, just because of some individuals 
> > > proclaiming that there is no hope, but unfortunately, this is a truth 
> > > that cannot be ignored.
> > > 
> > > The majority of mankind really are "blind as bats!" Fools, I 
> > > say! What is wrong with all of you? This world game of chess is far 
> > > from being over. Have any of you that have given up hope so easily 
> > > read any of Irina Krush's analysis on the ensuing positions that are 
> > > about to take place? Apparently not. It is time to unite... Not run 
> > > amuck like lost souls with no hope.
> > > 
> > > Sincerely,
> > > David :)
> > 
> > Shut up you hypocritical fool.  Take your god and kill somebody in 
> > the name of religion.

I found a win for white in the g4 line.  I played
white vs. my computer.  My idea was to simply
sac the inactive bishop for the b-pawn and then
prevent the king from crossing the f-file with my rook.

Please refute.  Lines that delay b2 might help.

35. Kg2  b3
36. g4  Nb4
37. Bc1 b2
38. Bxb2 Bxb2
39. g5  Nd5
40. Kh3  Be5
41. h6   b5
42. Rf8  b4
43. h7  b3
44. h8=Q  Bxh8
45. Rxh8  Nc3
46. Rb8  Ne4
47. Kg4  Nc5
48. Kh5  Kf5
49. Kh6  Ne6
50. g6  Kf6
51. Rxb3 Nd4
52. Rb2 Nf5+
53. Kh7 e6
54. Rf2 Ke5
55. Rxf5+ exf5
56. g7   white wins

36...Nb4 37.Bd2 Na6

34...Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3 Nb4 37.Bd2 Na6 38.g4 b2 39.g5 Bh8 
(39...Nc5 40.Be3) 40.g6 (40.Be3 Nb4-a2) Nc5
                

Final position is piece and 3 pawns vs. Queen, but I think Black 
might be able to hold, even after White wins the advanced pawn and 
one of Black's pieces.  
 
41.h6 Nb3 42.g7 Nxd2+ 43.Ke2 Nxf1 44.g8=Q+ Kd7 45.Qb3 Ng3+ 46.Kd3 Kc7 
47.Kc2 Ne4

Does anyone know if such endgames are a known win for White? If not, 
then this is a resource.   

- Monarkh
http://www.stormloader.com/monarkh/KvW.html

Hi,

Since I don't have the latest SMART-FAQ so I don't know whether these 
lines have been analysed or not. 
After move 34.. Bd4+
white will most likely to continue with 35. Kg2
then
35 ..b3
36 h6 b2
37 g4 Nb4
38 g5 Nd3
39 Bd2 Nc1
40 Rxc1 Bxc1=Q
41 Bxc1 =

any comments are welcome.

On Fri Aug 27 21:58:48, BiDaKecil (Lines given) wrote:
> Hi,

the lines are in here somewhere, but the basic idea is we must 
challenge with a plan, as b2 leads to no queen for quite a while, and 
these ideas are mainly nd4 bd2 and nd5, or kd5, we have flip flopped 
here. 
> 
> Since I don't have the latest SMART-FAQ so I don't know whether these 
> lines have been analysed or not. 
> After move 34.. Bd4+
> white will most likely to continue with 35. Kg2
> then
> 35 ..b3
> 36 h6 b2
> 37 g4 Nb4
> 38 g5 Nd3
> 39 Bd2 Nc1
> 40 Rxc1 Bxc1=Q
> 41 Bxc1 =
> 
> any comments are welcome.

ok better late than never.  we can always use it if gary makes a 
wrong move.  A couple of things..
if he plays 36 Kf3 then Nb4 gets our queen faster.
but he might play 36. h6 remember we are in a pawn race.
35 Kg2   b3      OR      35 Kg2   b3
36 Kf3?  Nb4             36  h6   b2
37 Bd2   Nc2             37  g4  Nb4   
38 Ke4   b2              38  g5  Nd3   
39 Kd3   Na2             39 Bd2  Nc1! 
40 Kxd4  b1Q             40 Rxc1 bxc1Q  

i won't project past this cause i make mistakes but after this it 
gets better!

On Fri Aug 27 21:31:50, Dave Gale wrote:
> I found a win for white in the g4 line.  I played
> white vs. my computer.  My idea was to simply
> sac the inactive bishop for the b-pawn and then
> prevent the king from crossing the f-file with my rook.
> 
> Please refute.  Lines that delay b2 might help.
> 
> 35. Kg2  b3
> 36. g4  Nb4

Fritz 5.32 sez:

You say that "lines that delay b2 might help", and you play 
36...Nb4 instead of 36...b2 and you show a win for White!  I haven't 
followed your line, but if you do show a win for White, maybe that 
should tell you something about your suggestion of delaying b2!!

Fritz 5.32 sez

ok irina's not comming back, i'm takin over
click this:
http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/eg/52212.asp

On Fri Aug 27 22:24:15, Chessmasterone Analyst WII  to  ***MSN*** 
wrote:
!
>      I would be interested in the addition of The World Team BBS 
> popular vote as another "Analyst Recommended" move, at the 
> Kasparov vs. The World Vote Site itelf, together with the other 5 
> recommended move analysts.
>      By pre-move vote percentage (a pre-registered MSN voting site 
> for example), the consensus recommended move from this BBS, could be 
> posted together alongside with the other 5 analysts at the actual 
> voting site.
>      I believe this would enhance the comraderee of the team, and be 
> forward of encouragement of all our participants.
>      Sincerely, and thanks MSN for all your efforts, that often can 
> be taken for granted (from me too).
> 
>               Chessmasterone Analyst WII

37.g4 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 39.h6 seems to be good for white.

thus unless 37...Na5 saves this (or 38...??), I would
say stick with 36...Bh8, for now.

join the computer chess team!!! new members always welcome!
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

Too many message to wade through yet so little time.

Thanks

On Fri Aug 27 22:55:07, IAN  wrote:
> http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/eg/52212.asp

yes, 36.Kf3 Nb4?! 37.Bd2 Nc2?? 38.Ke4 b2 39.Kd3 Na3 40.Kxd4 b1=Q 
41.Rxb1 Nxb1 42.Bb4! loses for Black nicely.
37...Nd5 is still unclear, no serious attention given to it, I think.

On Fri Aug 27 22:37:50, richard bean wrote:
> 37.g4 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 39.h6 seems to be good for white.
> 
> thus unless 37...Na5 saves this (or 38...??), I would
> say stick with 36...Bh8, for now.

Actually it seems as though 37...Bh8 handles g4 here, so there may be 
no reason to play it earlier.  It's not clear (at least to me) if 
there is an advantage in either move order so long as b2 is played 
early on.

On Fri Aug 27 22:44:31, 
How do you know where i lived you pathetic moron?

I have been in the same place for 12 yrs, including my 3 yrs on the 
top of the grand prix list. I have out up hitchhikers, town to town 
masters and all other sorts.
your nonsense , factless , stories have no merit. 
You try playing chess for a living. Even if you are a GM, the 1st 
prize barely covers the hotel. Driving all night should have been 
plenty of compensation for the locals. Maybe it was their sweat from 
being pounded and the TD drove their stinking loser whining butt back 
to get it kicked some more.

On Fri Aug 27 23:03:53, 

you want to talk hygeine pea brain?

BMcC now liar and crimminal wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 22:44:31, 
> How do you know where i lived you pathetic moron?
> 
> I have been in the same place for 12 yrs, including my 3 yrs on the 
> top of the grand prix list. I have out up hitchhikers, town to town 
> masters and all other sorts.
> your nonsense , factless , stories have no merit. 
> You try playing chess for a living. Even if you are a GM, the 1st 
> prize barely covers the hotel. Driving all night should have been 
> plenty of compensation for the locals. Maybe it was their sweat from 
> being pounded and the TD drove their stinking loser whining butt back 
> to get it kicked some more.

On Fri Aug 27 23:02:48, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 22:37:50, richard bean wrote:
> > 37.g4 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 39.h6 seems to be good for white.
> > 
> > thus unless 37...Na5 saves this (or 38...??), I would
> > say stick with 36...Bh8, for now.
> 
> Actually it seems as though 37...Bh8 handles g4 here, so there may be 
> no reason to play it earlier.  It's not clear (at least to me) if 
> there is an advantage in either move order so long as b2 is played 
> early on.

How do you continue after 38.g5?

On Fri Aug 27 23:00:07, richard bean wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 22:55:07, IAN  wrote:
> > http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/eg/52212.asp
> 
> yes, 36.Kf3 Nb4?! 37.Bd2 Nc2?? 38.Ke4 b2 39.Kd3 Na3 40.Kxd4 b1=Q 
> 41.Rxb1 Nxb1 42.Bb4! loses for Black nicely.
> 37...Nd5 is still unclear, no serious attention given to it, I think.
 back to the drawing board :<

On Fri Aug 27 23:12:50, jqb wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 23:00:07, richard bean wrote:
> > On Fri Aug 27 22:55:07, IAN  wrote:
> > > http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/eg/52212.asp
> > 
> > yes, 36.Kf3 Nb4?! 37.Bd2 Nc2?? 38.Ke4 b2 39.Kd3 Na3
> 
> What's wrong with 38. ... Be5 ?

39.Kd3 is indicated by crafty, +1.18 at 12 ply

On Fri Aug 27 23:13:30, eithkay wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 22:37:50, richard bean wrote:
> > 37.g4 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 39.h6 seems to be good for white.
> 
> Is this based on this line I saw at the CCT?
> 
> Start:
>  35.Kg2 b3
>  36.Kf3 b2
>  37.g4  Nb4
>  38.Ke2 Kd5
> 
> By: rb
> 
> Suggestion:
> 39. h6
> 
> Main Line:
> 39. ...  Na2 
> 40. Kd3  e5 
> 41. Bd2  e4+
> 42. Kc2  e3 
> 43. Bxe3 Bxe3 
> 44. Kxb2 Bxh6 
> 45. Kxa2 b5
> 46. Rf5+ Kc4 
> 47. g5 
>                                                                  Ply: 
> 15, score +0.86, ~2 hours, crafty 16.16
> 
> MacChess varies with 40...Nb4+. 41.Kd2 scores -0.17 white pawns after 
> d12/52 with this line:
> 
>  41.            Kc4
>  42. g5         Bc3+
>  43. Ke2        Nc2
>  44. Rd1        Nd4+
>  45. Ke3        e5
>  46. Bg3        Nf5+
>  47. Kf3        Bd2
>  48. Bxe5       dxe5

44.Rb1 Na3 45.Rxb2 is scoring +1.64 for White at 11 ply.
Any black move 39 scores >= +0.73 for White.








> > join the computer chess team!!! new members always welcome!
> > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

On Fri Aug 27 23:13:30, eithkay wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 22:37:50, richard bean wrote:
> > 37.g4 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 39.h6 seems to be good for white.
> 
> Is this based on this line I saw at the CCT?
> 
> Start:
>  35.Kg2 b3
>  36.Kf3 b2
>  37.g4  Nb4
>  38.Ke2 Kd5
> 
> By: rb
> 
> Suggestion:
> 39. h6
> 
> Main Line:
> 39. ...  Na2 
> 40. Kd3  e5 
> 41. Bd2  e4+
> 42. Kc2  e3 
> 43. Bxe3 Bxe3 

43. g5 looks like an easy win for white.

On Fri Aug 27 22:37:50, richard bean wrote:
> 37.g4 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 39.h6 seems to be good for white.
> 
> thus unless 37...Na5 saves this (or 38...??), I would
> say stick with 36...Bh8, for now.
> 
> join the computer chess team!!! new members always welcome!
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

This could have a very serious impact on blacks choice
of moves if the computer line 39h6! holds up.

After 36 ..Bh8 you better look at 37Kg4!? very
carefully.

On Fri Aug 27 23:29:56, jqb wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 23:13:30, eithkay wrote:
> > On Fri Aug 27 22:37:50, richard bean wrote:
> > > 37.g4 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 39.h6 seems to be good for white.
> > 
> > Is this based on this line I saw at the CCT?
> > 
> > Start:
> >  35.Kg2 b3
> >  36.Kf3 b2
> >  37.g4  Nb4
> >  38.Ke2 Kd5
> > 
> > By: rb
> > 
> > Suggestion:
> > 39. h6
> > 
> > Main Line:
> > 39. ...  Na2 
> > 40. Kd3  e5 
> > 41. Bd2  e4+
> > 42. Kc2  e3 
> > 43. Bxe3 Bxe3 
> 
> 43. g5 looks like an easy win for white.

Yes, definitely.  Crushing.  The CCT line
with Bxe3 only showed that it was at least 0.8
or whatever for White.

join the computer chess team!
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

First, let me say that Irina is irreplaceable.  Her contributions 
have taught us what it means to be a team.  She has raised the level 
of our game to the point that it seems intolerable to many of us to 
continue in the absence of her FAQ or something very like it.

If we are forced to do without Irina, the GM School is the only 
contributor with the stature necessary to lead.  However, it isn't 
clear that they want the job.  The analysis they post is of high 
quality, but it doesn't answer enough questions about second-best 
moves and alternative tries.  Their total analysis may have 20 
variations instead of the 200 or more the SmartFAQ gave to help 
develop our understanding.  Also, they have shown less interest in 
participating, updating frequently, and incorporating ideas from 
everyone.  Perhaps the GM School simply does not have the manpower 
necessary to monitor the bulletin board 24 hours per day and maintain 
a comprehensive analysis tree.

I believe the third best choice is a machine-moderated FAQ.  In light 
of the coding he has done for the team already, I nominate 99% 
Energy to head up the project.  He has already given us an interface 
for viewing the FAQ, which is a significant start.  What we need in 
addition is a way to suggest alternatives and continuations from the 
same view, and a way to prioritize incoming suggestions.

Computers are capable of handling both tasks.  A chess engine such as 
crafty could give a cursory evaluation to all the nodes in the 
analysis tree, and bubble up the best lines using standard mini-max.  
Of course, we would expect the machine's positional judgement to be 
poor, but if the variations were played out to sufficient length, 
even a quick machine evaluation would suffice.

There are several differences between what I am suggesting and what 
the Computer Team is already doing.  First, anyone can suggest a move 
to add to the tree via the Web, and it will be automatically added.  
Second, the machine analysis would be very shallow instead of deep.  
The primary function of the machine moderator is to collate and 
display, not to evaluate or initiate.  Thirdly, the tree would be 
very large.  I expect that with hundreds of humans pouring in ideas 
the FAQ might hit 20,000 or even 200,000 nodes.

A machine moderated FAQ would combine the best of the abilities of 
humans and computers.  Humans would determine which lines are worth 
pursuing in any depth, while the machine would keep track of and 
organize the mountain of data, displaying the best lines in a format 
which invites further human input.

I myself would enthusiastically contribute to such a project, but I 
am curious what my fellow members of the World Team think about it.  
Is it a good idea?  Is it a workable idea?

Peace,
-Fritz

On Fri Aug 27 22:58:13, BiDaKecil wrote:
> Too many message to wade through yet so little time.
> 
> Thanks


35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3 Bh8

then 37.g4 Nd4+ is good for black.
(unlike 36.Kf3 b2 37.g4 Bh8? 38.g5!, good for White)

37.Bd2 (CCT) and 37.Kg4 (suttles) need
examination.

join the computer chess team
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

From:
Host:
Date:  Re: I am right, you are wrong
I'll say it as many times as it takes, 
spider-tl084.proxy.aol.com
Fri Aug 27 23:44:27 

On Fri Aug 27 23:37:39, eithkay wrote:snip

You don't speak for everyone else. I have almost without exception 
and certainly here, always gotten email support. There are people who 
care about more than seeing their name in  a FAQ or beating Kasparov, 
yeah right.

If you want to know what is serious, come with me to visit the person 
I helped treat last night in the emergency room with a cracked skull 
and hole in his head. He had bi lateral frontal lobe damage, which 
means serious rehab if that even works. 

This is a crock of crap to me, but I will not be ripped off, insulted 
or harassed by scum bags.

On Fri Aug 27 23:40:06, richard bean wrote:
> On Fri Aug 27 23:29:56, jqb wrote:
> > On Fri Aug 27 23:13:30, eithkay wrote:
> > > On Fri Aug 27 22:37:50, richard bean wrote:
> > > > 37.g4 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 39.h6 seems to be good for white.
> > > 
> > > Is this based on this line I saw at the CCT?
> > > 
> > > Start:
> > >  35.Kg2 b3
> > >  36.Kf3 b2
> > >  37.g4  Nb4
> > >  38.Ke2 Kd5
> > > 
> > > By: rb
> > > 
> > > Suggestion:
> > > 39. h6
> > > 
> > > Main Line:
> > > 39. ...  Na2 
> > > 40. Kd3  e5 
> > > 41. Bd2  e4+
> > > 42. Kc2  e3 
> > > 43. Bxe3 Bxe3 
> > 
> > 43. g5 looks like an easy win for white.
> 
> Yes, definitely.  Crushing.  The CCT line
> with Bxe3 only showed that it was at least 0.8
> or whatever for White.

Hmm, Crafty running at 40000 nodes per second on this
little Pentium 166 at the office found g5 in
a few seconds, and my rusty 1700 skills were enough
to see that it wins.

On Fri Aug 27 23:31:28, Duncan Suttles wrote:

Just a few minutes ago, a guy asked about a wierd line that I had 
been asked about yesterday, involving a knight and 4 pawns vs queen. 
The guy was also offering a tempo down version of an old Kf2 line. I 
told him to absolutely take a look, its just 7-9 and u usually need 3 
for win w/ no pawns. I said that anyhting had to be better than a Kf2 
transposition, since it lost, 

And here it is staring me in the face!!

Absolutely amazing


> On Fri Aug 27 22:37:50, richard bean wrote:
> > 37.g4 Nb4 38.Ke2 Kd5 39.h6 seems to be good for white.
> > 
> > thus unless 37...Na5 saves this (or 38...??), I would
> > say stick with 36...Bh8, for now.
> > 
> > join the computer chess team!!! new members always welcome!
> > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/
> 
> This could have a very serious impact on blacks choice
> of moves if the computer line 39h6! holds up.
> 
> After 36 ..Bh8 you better look at 37Kg4!? very
> carefully.

> >  41.            Kc4
> >  42. g5         Bc3+
> >  43. Ke2        Nc2
> >  44. Rd1        Nd4+
> >  45. Ke3        e5
> >  46. Bg3        Nf5+
> >  47. Kf3        Bd2
> >  48. Bxe5       dxe5
> 
> 44.Rb1 Na3 45.Rxb2 is scoring +1.64 for White at 11 ply.

Seems kinda low -- does Crafty do selective depth searches? MacChess 
gives it twice that in about a second, and thinks White can't be 
stopped from queening.

44...Nd4+ doesn't immediately lose by force, but the main line at d12 
as I type ends with 50.g7 Ng4 51.Rxb2 Nxh6 52.Rxb7 -- not my idea of 
a good time. (Different line at d13 -- N@g6, P@h7, no b-pawns. Score 
+0.41.)

If I come up with anything worthwhile in this line, I'll hand-scrub 
it and post it.

--KHudson

> Any black move 39 scores >= +0.73 for White.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > > join the computer chess team!!! new members always welcome!
> > > http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

(no body)

>>>, > = me
>> = Richard Bean

> > >  41.            Kc4
> > >  42. g5         Bc3+
> > >  43. Ke2        Nc2
> > >  44. Rd1        Nd4+
> > >  45. Ke3        e5
> > >  46. Bg3        Nf5+
> > >  47. Kf3        Bd2
> > >  48. Bxe5       dxe5
> > 
> > 44.Rb1 Na3 45.Rxb2 is scoring +1.64 for White at 11 ply.

> 44...Nd4+ doesn't immediately lose by force, but the main line at d12 
> as I type ends with 50.g7 Ng4 51.Rxb2 Nxh6 52.Rxb7 -- not my idea of 
> a good time. (Different line at d13 -- N@g6, P@h7, no b-pawns. Score 
> +0.41.)
> 
> If I come up with anything worthwhile in this line, I'll hand-scrub 
> it and post it.

Not hand-scrubbed yet, but a noticeable improvement in the line: 

 45. Kd1        Nf5
 46. g6         b5
 47. Bd2        Bxd2
 48. Kxd2       Nxh6
 49. Rxb2       Nf5
 50. Kc1        e5
 51. Rf2        Nh6
 52. g7         d5
 53. Rf8        e4
 54. g8=Q       Nxg8
 55. Rxg8

Superficially, this looks presentable. I'll step through it (a la 
Fritz correspondence mode) after I raid the local convenience store.

--KHudson

Richard & Ian (are you there DK?):
I followed your long dialog a half page down. I was wondering why not 
move ...Ne4+ to white's Kf3?

34. Bf4   Bd4+
35. Kg2   b3
36. Kf3   Ne4+
37. Ke4   Bc3   (if 37. Bxe5 then ...Bx35)
38. Rc1   d5+   (if 38. Rd1 then ...b7)
39. Ke3   d4+
40. Ke2   d3+
41. Ke1   b7
42. Rb1   Nc4   (with threat of Na3)

Is there a gross oversight of my part?  The march down the middle by 
the d-pawn looks formidable, but looks can be deceiving.

On Sat Aug 28 00:58:06, Jose Capablanca wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can see no one 
> has found ANY non-losing line for Black in the main line:  35. Kg2 b3 
> 36. Kf3

what's the refutation for 36...Bh8?

Of course GM Suttle's opinion of how  he said Kasparov would react to 
...b4 has come true, despite the mass hysteria of people who have 
never witnessed, much less participated in an elite round robin. I 
posted the idea to Smartchess, but they chose not to investigate it 
thoroughly and hence we are caught very short of time. the World's 
move Bd4 may be forced, but any alternatives, went unexamined, 
despite about 20 posts on an idea i found with a mouseslip, to refine 
the so called "passive defense" set up. It seems clear we 
need something to prevent GK from taking over.The McCarthy/Suttles 
attack has become reality. 
The game so far: [White "Kasparov, G."] [Black "The 
World"] [ECO "B52"] [EventDate "1999.??.??"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nf6 7. 
O-O g6 8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 Bg7 10. Nde2 Qe6 {N (Krush) The "World 
Variation"} 11. Nd5 Qxe4 12. Nc7+ Kd7 13. Nxa8 Qxc4 14. Nb6+ axb6 
15. Nc3 Ra8 {(Speelman)} 16. a4 16... Ne4 17. Nxe4 17... Qxe4 18. Qb3 
18... f5 (GM School - Khalifman)} 19. Bg5 19... Qb4 {(Jason Van 
Eaton)} 20. Qf7 Be5 {(Brian McCarthy)} 21. h3 Rxa4 22. Rxa4 Qxa4 23. 
Qxh7 Bxb2 24. Qxg6 Qe4 25. Qf7  Bd4 26. Qb3 f4 {{Yasha}}27. Qf7 Be5 
28. h4 b5 29. h5 Qc4 30. Qf5+ Qe6 31. Qxe6 Kxe6 32. g3 fg3 33. fg3 
b4?! (OmniBob/KarlJuhnke) 34. Bf4!? (McCarthy/Suttles) (above 
designations, EXCEPT move 34, as given by analyst US Women's champion 
Irina Krush: www.smartchess.com):
Outline 8/23/99 Predicting   Kg2  Score of Predictions so far 21-12 
(Qf5+?!, [Bf4!?, Kf2!])
Recommending: 34. Bf4 Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. Kf3 ! (McCarthy) idea Be3! 
(Suttles)
 The idea that smartchess called obvious, although they didn't 
include it in their FAQ till I posted my initial varaitions on the 
MSN BBS, has become the most dreaded line for the world team at the 
moment. The stock ...b2 plan seems to lose fairly easily due to a 
well timed Be3!(Suttles) a move so strong, he considered saccing it 
the move before to go Re1xe3!!. The world team is down to a few hours 
before the last gasp effort will occur. Mob hysteria took control 
with the worst move of the game...b4 and now instead of being better, 
we are looking at an all loss main line as presented in the last FAQ!
GM Suttles is once again showing a firm grasp on the position at 
hand! Zarkov laughs at -107, until he doubles over and coughs up 
blood at +300, then he settles in to the grim reality!!
Developments! People again for 3 consecutive moves ignored the advice 
of the board's strongest players, all the analysts seem to have been 
caught completely unaware of Bf4's dynamic possibilities. The world 
team knows chaos like it hasn't in many moves.  We have no 
opportunity to be guided by table bases or even well run lines. Still 
Bacrot plays in the French Championship without a care and we have no 
GM analyst at the most crucial part of the game. The world team has 
been incedibly fortunate to have Canadian GM Suttles contribute. So 
far he has analyzed 3 different moves to a draw to my satisfaction. 
However the world team chose to ignore his advice and this page and 
plunged into uncontrollable consequences. The rollercoaster variation 
has begun, will we be going WEE or hurling our lunch?
My original post on Bf4/Kf3 (McCarthy) idea: Days before anyone else 
examined it. GM Suttled was the only other master to see the simple 
logic of Bf4!. 
 The FAQ outline contradicted  itself in what is now the main line. I 
pointed out the independent try Kf3 : 33...b4 34 Bf4 Bh8 and gives a 
transposition to 34 g4 b3 35 Bf4 Bd4+ and now says Bh8 loses to g5! 
This was wrong, g5 doesn't win for white it wins for black! 33.fxg3 
b4 34.h6 b3 35.h7 b2 36.Bf4 Bh8 37.g4 Nb4 38.g5 Nd3! DummyDave 39.Bd2 
39...Nc1 40. Rxc1 bxc1=R! 41.Bxc1 Kf5 42.Kf2 Kg6 43.Kf3 d5 17 -1.47 
-+ Fritz 5.32 8/20 FAQ Line E2b3: Black is won in this line and we 
get to rook a pawn!!
The world has fallen for the classic poker bluff. With no 
alternatives and an easy draw in hand, the g3 sac was a no brainer, 
also apparent to GM Suttles, myself and Crafty was that it needed to 
be taken. Now we must deal with Bf4 and the threats of g4 plus all 
the problems we had before we could have taken a pawn. At least I 
have a few well analyzed line to try and work on. 
A) 33.fxg3 b4 34.Bf4 Bd4+ pv Kg2 Nb4 g4 b2 Bd2 Nd3 Rb1 d5 g5 Kf5 Ke2 
Nc1+ Kd1 +26 [Zarkov]732 mill 
B)  36. Kg2 b3 35. g4 b2 36. Kf3 b5 unclear
 C) MAIN LINE: D) (34. Bf4 Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. Kf3! d5 37 g4 Ne5+ 38 
Bxe5 Kxe5 39 Rd1 b2 40 Rh1 Kf6 41 h6 Kg6 42 h7 +27 [Zarkov] 
C1) 36...pv Nb4 g4 b2 Bd2 Nd3 Rb1 d5 g5 Kf5 Ke2 Nc1+ Kd1 +26 
[Zarkov]732 mill
c2) 36...b2 37 Ke2 Bf6 38 Bd2 Ne5 38 h6 Nc4 40 Bb4 Nb6 41 h7 Nd5 42 
Bd2 +8 [Zarkov]
C2a) 36 b2 37 Ke2 Kd5 38 h6 Bh8 Kd2 Nd4 Kc3 Nf3+ Kc2 Ke4 Rf2 Bf6 h7 
e5 Re2+ Kd4 +10 [Zarkov] 1.8 bill pv 
C2b) 36 b2 37 Ke2 Kd5 38 Ke4 Bh8 Kd3 b5 Kc2 Nb4+ Kb1 Nd5 h6 Bf6 Bd2 
Bd4 +10 [Zarkov] 
C2c) 37. Be3 Ne5+ 38. Ke2 Bxe3 39. Kxe3 Nc4+ 40. Kd3 Ne5+ (if b5 to 
keep queen threat alive: 
b5 pv h6 Ne5+ Kc2 Ng6 h7 Ke5 Rh1 Nh8 Kxb2 +180 pawn falls like rotten 
fruit , a b4 bannana [Zarkov]) 41 Kc3 Ng4 Kxb2 Ke5 Re1+ Kf6 Kc3 (+100 
[Zarkov] Kc3 geometry! to knight) pv Ng4 Kxb2 Ke5 Kc3 e6 Rb1 Nf6 Rb5+ 
d5 +121 [Zarkov]
 I am giving up on ...b2 for now 
34. Bf4 Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. Kf3 and here we need a real plan: 

Conclusion: The world entered an unclear line with one of the 
greatest tactician of all times ignoring our strongest players and 
best computers to reach an unfathomable position and due to time 
constraints, our computers will be less valuable. In fact for the 
next move they are basically useless and will continue to be until we 
actually put together a plan. We need a real defense to 
 Kf3!(McCarthy) and Be3! (Suttles)
(Computer Chess Club) 
http://www.egroups.com/wdb?method=reportRows&listname=computergang&tbl
=1&sortBy=1&sortDir=down&start_at=0&prntRpt=1
Thanks to everyone on the Compter Chess Team!
http://members.aol.com/bmcc333/bmcc.html

I spoke to Irina Krush this evening, and Ron Henley, Irina and I 
decided it would be in the best interests the team spirit to 
re-establish her analysis file on our web-site on Saturday. In this 
regard, we will provide a framework for our teammates to shoot holes 
in, and carry on the fight. The analysis has been purged of any 
variation that has been made claim to or if we are in doubt of an 
individual's identity as regarding its origin, but maintains any line 
we know was discovered independently. The analysis made by our group 
will contain no credits, and we will seek no credit for them. We will 
not add any variations seen on the BBS to the FAQ unless analysis 
presented on the BBS is accompanied by a permission statement,

"Permission is granted to include this work in the FAQ, in order 
to assist my teammates determine our best future course."

As part of her chess training for her career, Irina has taken this 
game to heart and wishes to work with her teammates.

Other points:

We have noted that an individual on this newsgroup - NM Brian 
McCarthy - has been accused falsely of sending e-mail to individuals 
in our company which are (for want of a better word) unprofessional. 
I wish to dispel this accusation immediately. At no time did such 
ever happen. The issue concerning e-mails regarded other sources that 
were anonymous and that we were unable to identify. We view Mr. 
McCarthy as a valuable analyst on the World Team, even though we 
disagree with his personal views about our company or individuals in 
our company. It is my understanding that Mr. McCarthy was seeking 
credit for certain variations in the FAQ - and it is possible that he 
has been omitted - I am not sure because I am just catching up with 
the FAQ. Any notion of malicious behavior by our company regarding 
creditation or theft of another individual's work, or deliberately 
witholding information we thought might be valuable is simply 
misinformed. Irina has done much work that has never been published 
because a) she didn't think it was relevant b) she refuted one of her 
lines herself and judged it be of no value, or c) it is work in 
progess.

The idea that Irina Krush, her family, or MSN or smartchess.com are 
in violation of child labor laws is totally ridiculous. Irina Krush 
holds a legal professional sports sponsorship contract with our 
company, not unlike those held by other young professional sports 
persons in tennis, gymnastics, ice-skating, etc. She is neither a 
paid employee of MSN nor smartchess.com. Her participation in this 
event is as an unpaid volunteer. Her sponsorship contract is subject 
to certain conditions including maintenance of a standard of 
excellence in her school work and her progression to 
college/university.

I am not certain when Irina Krush will return to participate on this 
BBS as she is preparing for a tournament in Armenia and has school 
commitments that must be met.

Paul Hodges
SmartChess Online

And all the people who falsely accused McCarthy
should kindly vacate themselves from this BBS for
the rest of the game.

37.Bd2 Nc2? 38.Ke4! b2 39.Kd3 Na3 40.Kxd4 b1=Q 41.Rxb1 Nxb1 42.Bb4! 
+-, better is 37...Nd5, but there allso white stands better IMO


On Sat Aug 28 02:11:28, Steve B. wrote:
> The Russian GM School offered one line they thought was strong for 
> Black.  IMHO the World should pay close attention to it, because it 
> looks like a winner. In the later part of this post I will offer some 
> extended computer analysis which suggests Black can outright win the 
> game with this line.
> 
> The Russians offer us the following:
> 
> 34. Bf4   Bd4+
> 35. Kg2   b3
> 36. Kf3   Nb4!  <- GM School "!"
> 37. Ke4   Bc3!! <- GM School "!!"
> 38. h6    b2
> 39. Rd1   d5+
> 
> I tried a side variation where White plays 39. h7, and it looses 
> quickly for White.
> 
>               39. h7    d5+
>               40. Kf3   Nc2
>               41. Rb1   Na3
>               42. Rxb2  Bxb2
>               43. Bc1   Bh8
>               44. BxNa3 Kf6
> 
> So, seeing how 39. h7 looses White's rook for a pawn and Knight, 
> leaving a Bishop vs. Bishop end game to Black's advantage, we now 
> return back to the Russian's main line.  For Black the move 
> combination of ... Nc2 followed by ... Na3 is a threat that keeps 
> looming in extended (computer) analysis that will follow.
> 
> The Russians conclude...
> 
> 40. Ke3   Kf5
> 41. Ke2   Bh8
> -/+
> 
> We may note that 41. Ke2 cuts off Black from playing 41... Nc2 
> followed by 42... Na3 as per side line shown above.
> 
> Now, in order to get an idea of what may happen after reaching this 
> position, I turned on Fritz 4.01 for infinite analysis to a minimum 
> depth of 12/12 for each and every move that follows.
> 
> Grandpa Fritz says...
> 
> 42. Kd2   e5
> 43. Be3   d4
> 44. Bg1   e4
> 
> Black's pawns are coming into their own and are turning into a real 
> menace for White.
> 
> 45. Rg1+  Kg6
> 
> Fritz wanted to play 45. Rb1 ... 46. Rg1+ ... 47. Rb1 ... which 
> seemed to get White nowhere.  In the interest of saving tempo for 
> White, I played 45. Rg1+ first and then let Fritz move the Rook to 
> b1.  I think the problem for Fritz was finding good moves for White 
> in a position where Black keeps putting on the squeeze.
> 
> 46. Rb1   d3
> 47. Bc5   ...
> 
> Again, this cuts off 47... Nc2 followed by 48... Na3 since the White 
> King was driven off.
> 
> 47. ...   Nd5
> 
> Just watch, Black has got something special planned for the Knight 
> from 47... Nd5.
> 
> 48. Ke1   ...
> 
> 48. Ke1 avoids possible mating threats because White wants to play 
> Ba3 and attack the b pawn.  For example...
> 
>              48. Ba3??   Bc3+
>              49. Kd1     Nc3#
> 
> 48. ...   Kxh6
> 
> With the h pawn gone, Black's Bishop is free to harrass Black's King.
> 
> 49. Ba3   Bc3+
> 50. Kf1   Ne3+
> 51. Kf2   Bd4!  <- "!" being MHO, anyway.
> 
> IMHO the move 51... Bd4 is down right diabolical, as I thought Fritz 
> would pick 51... Nc4.  So here seemed a good place to stop, as White 
> is left with no good options and should soon collapse under Black's 
> pressure.
> 
> My conclusion is the Russian GM School has found a very good line for 
> Black, and the World will be doing well to consider it.
> 
> Comments anyone?
> 
> Regards, Steve Bennett

On Sat Aug 28 02:18:48, for white - IM2429 wrote:
> 37.Bd2 Nc2? 38.Ke4! b2 39.Kd3 Na3 40.Kxd4 b1=Q 41.Rxb1 Nxb1 42.Bb4! 
> +-, better is 37...Nd5, but there allso white stands better IMO

OK, so 37. Bd2 is better for White than 37. Ke4.  I guess the 
Russians have more homework to do.

It is interesting to note in the face of 37. Bd2, Fritz picks 37... 
Nc2 at a depth of 12/12 and the from there the situation does indeed 
deteriorate for Black.  What a good object lesson on how computer 
analysis can fail in the face of strong IM/GM quality analysis.

Thanks for shooting holes in the line, since that will bring us 
closer to better moves for Black.

I will be only too happy to see Irina's FAQ return to the rescue!

Regards, Steve B.

> On Sat Aug 28 02:11:28, Steve B. wrote:
> > The Russian GM School offered one line they thought was strong for 
> > Black.  IMHO the World should pay close attention to it, because it 
> > looks like a winner. In the later part of this post I will offer some 
> > extended computer analysis which suggests Black can outright win the 
> > game with this line.
> > 
> > The Russians offer us the following:
> > 
> > 34. Bf4   Bd4+
> > 35. Kg2   b3
> > 36. Kf3   Nb4!  <- GM School "!"
> > 37. Ke4   Bc3!! <- GM School "!!"
> > 38. h6    b2
> > 39. Rd1   d5+
> > 
> > I tried a side variation where White plays 39. h7, and it looses 
> > quickly for White.
> > 
> >               39. h7    d5+
> >               40. Kf3   Nc2
> >               41. Rb1   Na3
> >               42. Rxb2  Bxb2
> >               43. Bc1   Bh8
> >               44. BxNa3 Kf6
> > 
> > So, seeing how 39. h7 looses White's rook for a pawn and Knight, 
> > leaving a Bishop vs. Bishop end game to Black's advantage, we now 
> > return back to the Russian's main line.  For Black the move 
> > combination of ... Nc2 followed by ... Na3 is a threat that keeps 
> > looming in extended (computer) analysis that will follow.
> > 
> > The Russians conclude...
> > 
> > 40. Ke3   Kf5
> > 41. Ke2   Bh8
> > -/+
> > 
> > We may note that 41. Ke2 cuts off Black from playing 41... Nc2 
> > followed by 42... Na3 as per side line shown above.
> > 
> > Now, in order to get an idea of what may happen after reaching this 
> > position, I turned on Fritz 4.01 for infinite analysis to a minimum 
> > depth of 12/12 for each and every move that follows.
> > 
> > Grandpa Fritz says...
> > 
> > 42. Kd2   e5
> > 43. Be3   d4
> > 44. Bg1   e4
> > 
> > Black's pawns are coming into their own and are turning into a real 
> > menace for White.
> > 
> > 45. Rg1+  Kg6
> > 
> > Fritz wanted to play 45. Rb1 ... 46. Rg1+ ... 47. Rb1 ... which 
> > seemed to get White nowhere.  In the interest of saving tempo for 
> > White, I played 45. Rg1+ first and then let Fritz move the Rook to 
> > b1.  I think the problem for Fritz was finding good moves for White 
> > in a position where Black keeps putting on the squeeze.
> > 
> > 46. Rb1   d3
> > 47. Bc5   ...
> > 
> > Again, this cuts off 47... Nc2 followed by 48... Na3 since the White 
> > King was driven off.
> > 
> > 47. ...   Nd5
> > 
> > Just watch, Black has got something special planned for the Knight 
> > from 47... Nd5.
> > 
> > 48. Ke1   ...
> > 
> > 48. Ke1 avoids possible mating threats because White wants to play 
> > Ba3 and attack the b pawn.  For example...
> > 
> >              48. Ba3??   Bc3+
> >              49. Kd1     Nc3#
> > 
> > 48. ...   Kxh6
> > 
> > With the h pawn gone, Black's Bishop is free to harrass Black's King.
> > 
> > 49. Ba3   Bc3+
> > 50. Kf1   Ne3+
> > 51. Kf2   Bd4!  <- "!" being MHO, anyway.
> > 
> > IMHO the move 51... Bd4 is down right diabolical, as I thought Fritz 
> > would pick 51... Nc4.  So here seemed a good place to stop, as White 
> > is left with no good options and should soon collapse under Black's 
> > pressure.
> > 
> > My conclusion is the Russian GM School has found a very good line for 
> > Black, and the World will be doing well to consider it.
> > 
> > Comments anyone?
> > 
> > Regards, Steve Bennett

Way cool.

On Sat Aug 28 02:18:48, for white - IM2429 wrote:
> 37.Bd2 Nc2? 38.Ke4! b2 39.Kd3 Na3 40.Kxd4 b1=Q 41.Rxb1 Nxb1 42.Bb4! 
> +-, better is 37...Nd5, but there allso white stands better IMO
> 
> 
 I totally agree with you! The line 36...Nb4 37.Ke4 Bc3! is really 
good for black, but the strongest reply to 36..Nb4 is 37.Bd2. And now 
37...Nc2 fails on 38.Ke4! 
I give you some other exemple:
 A) 38...d5+ 39.Kd3 Kd6 40.Bc3
 B) 38...Bh8 39.Kd3 Na3 40.Bc3 b2 41.Bxh8 b1=Q 42.Rxb1 Nxb1 43.g4
 C) 38...Na3 39.Kxd4 b2 40.g4 b1=Q 41.Rxb1 Nxb1 42.Bc1

Black seems a bit better (hopelessly) after 36...Nb4 37.Bd2 Na6. But 
after 38.g4 b2 39.Ke4! (instead of 39.g5) should be winning (I'm not 
a grandmaster, you'll value it better). For exemple:
 A) 39.Ke4 Be5! 40.g5 Nc5+ 41.Ke3 Nd7 (this is the best line for 
black)
 B) 39.Ke4 Bh8 40.g5 Nc5+ 41.Ke3 Nb3 42.g6 Nc1 (42...Nxd2 43.Kxd2 Bf6 
44.h6) 43.g7 b1=Q 44.g8=Q+ Kd7 45.Qg4+ 1-0

On Sat Aug 28 02:18:48, for white - IM2429 wrote:
> 37.Bd2 Nc2? 38.Ke4! b2 39.Kd3 Na3 40.Kxd4 b1=Q 41.Rxb1 Nxb1 42.Bb4! 
> +-, better is 37...Nd5, but there allso white stands better IMO

Fritz 5.32 sez:

I agree that 37...Nc2 is a mistake.  Ross has pointed out that you 
and he showed that 37.Bd2 refutes 36...Nb4.  I also showed where I 
thought that 37.Ke2 also refutes 36...Nb4.

As far as 37...Nd5 is concerned, it looks like a draw to me.  See:

http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/ze/52181.asp

I have seen a number of people try Nb4 at different moves and it 
seems that it just doesn't work.  I don't like the Knight over there. 
 I think it belongs not only closer to the King, but also ready to 
help stop White's passed pawns.  After all, that is the biggest 
danger in this game right now.  The Knight moving over to the Queen's 
side of the board is not going to allow us to promote and keep our 
newly promoted Queen (for very long anyway!).  Let's keep our Knight 
where it is for right now.

I think we should concentrate on either 36...b2 or 36...Bh8.

Fritz 5.32 sez

Current status of a line batted between Richard Bean and me (! = 
rebuttals):

35. Kg2   b3
36. Kf3   b2
37. g4    Nb4
38. Ke2   Kd5
39. h6!   Na2
40. Kd3   Nb4+!
41. Kd2   Kc4
42. g5    Bc3+
43. Ke2   Nc2
44. Rb1!  Nd4+!
45. Kd1   Nf5
46. g6    b5
47. Bg5!

I said I wouldn't follow up unless I found something really good. I 
humbly believe I (or, more accurately, MacChess) have.

47. ...   b4

48. g7    Nxg7! {idea: N for last 2 pawns}
49. hxg7  Bxg7
50. Bxe7  Kb3
51. Bxd6  Ka2
52. Bxb4  Kxb1
53. Ba3   Bc3
54. Bxb2

I'm pretty sure this is a draw. :^)

48. h7?   Kd3

Zugzwang! White has to move his bishop and can't stop both Nh4, 
winning the g-pawn, and Ne3#.

48. Bf4   Kd3 
49. Bg5   Kc4 

This is the easy way out for black; we can try to win with 49...e6 or 
48...Kb3.

I don't think any super players have touched this line since move 40, 
so there are plenty of possibilities for improvements.

Also, there could be more promise in the Bh8 lines at this point -- I 
haven't checked them. I can't really contribute unless I pick a line 
and focus all my efforts on it. Hopefully, if there are others like 
me, we can make a difference.

--KHudson

Permission to add information to the FAQ granted to SmartChess. (or 
whatever the quote was)

On Sat Aug 28 02:57:33, Fritz 5.32 sez: wrote:
> On Sat Aug 28 02:18:48, for white - IM2429 wrote:
> > 37.Bd2 Nc2? 38.Ke4! b2 39.Kd3 Na3 40.Kxd4 b1=Q 41.Rxb1 Nxb1 42.Bb4! 
> > +-, better is 37...Nd5, but there allso white stands better IMO
> 
> Fritz 5.32 sez:
> 
> I agree that 37...Nc2 is a mistake.  Ross has pointed out that you 
> and he showed that 37.Bd2 refutes 36...Nb4.  I also showed where I 
> thought that 37.Ke2 also refutes 36...Nb4.
> 
> As far as 37...Nd5 is concerned, it looks like a draw to me.  See:
> 
> http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/ze/52181.asp
> 
> I have seen a number of people try Nb4 at different moves and it 
> seems that it just doesn't work.  I don't like the Knight over there. 
>  I think it belongs not only closer to the King, but also ready to 
> help stop White's passed pawns.  After all, that is the biggest 
> danger in this game right now.  The Knight moving over to the Queen's 
> side of the board is not going to allow us to promote and keep our 
> newly promoted Queen (for very long anyway!).  Let's keep our Knight 
> where it is for right now.
> 
> I think we should concentrate on either 36...b2 or 36...Bh8.
> 
> Fritz 5.32 sez


I'm looking at 36..b2 now with 37. Ke4 - think that's maybe our 
biggest problem - are you up to speed on any analysis already done on 
36...b2 ? - I've got 

fxg3 b4 34. Bf4 Bd4+ 35. Kg2 b3 36. Kf3 b2 37. Ke4 Bh8 38. Kd3 Kd5 
39. h6 e5
40. Bd2 e4+ 41. Kc2 Kc4 (I think) - more to follow 

DK

34...Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3 b2 37.Be3(Suttles), here McCarthy in his 
outline continues with the inferior 37...Ne5+? 38. Ke2 Bxe3 39.Kxe3 
Nc4+ 40.Kd3 Ne5+ 41.Kc3 Ng4 42.Kxb2 Ke5 43.Re1+ Kf6 44.Kc3 +100 
[Zarkov] and makes a conclusion that 36...b2 loses, but no reason for 
that I think, 37...Bf6!? instead may offer black good chances:

a) 38.Re1? Ne5+ 39.Kg2 Kd7! -+

b) 38.g4?! Ne5+ 39.Kg3?! Nc4 -+ or 39.Ke2 Nxg4

c) 38.Ke2 Nb4 39.g4 Nc2 (39...Na2!?) 40.g5 Nxe3 41.Kxe3 Bxg5+
or 39.Kd2 Na2 40.Kc2 Nc3!

d) 38.h6 Ne5+ 39.Ke2 Nc4 40.Kd3 (40.h7 leads to a perpetual) Kd5 ( 
40...Na3?? 41.Bd4 +-) 41.h7 (41.g4 Nxe3) Na3 42.g4 b1=Q 43.Rxb1 Nxb1 
44.g5 Bh8 45.g6 Na3! 46.Bh6 Nc4 47.g7 Ne5+ 48.Ke2 Bxg7 49.Bxg7 
Ng6/Nf7 and black is not worse




In my analysis the biggest problem for black has been the line 
34...Bd4+ 35.Kg2 b3 36.Kf3 b2 37.Ke4, but allso there Ive found 
defending chances for black. e.g. the 36...b2 mainline in 26/8FAQ 
assessed as +/- may be holdable. Working on it now.


Note that king marches and knight manouvres many times dont work and 
black must remain on defense.



dont remember how it exactly went, but 4FAQ

35.Kh1! (ingenious Garry K) b3 36.g4 Kd5 (according to FAQ this is 
blacks best move) 37.g5 e5 (what else??) 38.Bc1!!?N and now:

a) 38...b2 39.Bxb2 Bxb2 40.h6 Ne7 41.Rf6! e4 42.h7 Bxf6 43.gxf6 Ng6 
44.f7 +-

b) 38...e4 39.g6 e3 ( 39...Ne7 40.Bg5 +-) 40.h6 e2 ( 40...Ne7 41.g7 
b2? 42.Bxe3 +-) 41.Re1 Ne7 42.g7 b2 43.Bxb2 and white wins


I very much think/fear that 36...Kd5 is an immediate loss. Gotta try 
to make some other 36. move work.

NT

On Sat Aug 28 12:57:01, IM2429 wrote:
> 35.Kh1! (ingenious Garry K) b3 36.g4 Kd5 (according to FAQ this is 
> blacks best move) 37.g5 e5 (what else??) 38.Bc1!!?N and now:
> 
> a) 38...b2 39.Bxb2 Bxb2 40.h6 Ne7 41.Rf6! e4 42.h7 Bxf6 43.gxf6 Ng6 
> 44.f7 +-
> 
> b) 38...e4 39.g6 e3 ( 39...Ne7 40.Bg5 +-) 40.h6 e2 ( 40...Ne7 41.g7 
> b2? 42.Bxe3 +-) 41.Re1 Ne7 42.g7 b2 43.Bxb2 and white wins
> 
> 
> I very much think/fear that 36...Kd5 is an immediate loss. Gotta try 
> to make some other 36. move work.

On Sat Aug 28 12:57:01,


Zarkov sees this like an oncoming train. How could we have been so 
bogged dowm as to not outline 2 clear transpositions. I blame myself 
getting distartcted as much as anyone else. The entire world shoud be 
able to handle a simple move search, when we had a week. But then 
again I always felt..b4 lost.

Bf4 check, how many moves can there be? Garri may have gotten us with 
good ole fundamantals!!

b4 34. Bf4 Bd4+ 35. Kh1 b3 36. g4 

pv Nb4 g5 b2 Kg2 Nd3 Kf3 Nc1 Rxc1 bxc1 Bxc1 -12 [Zarkov] 
Sometimes you can't sell Zark water in the desert. 

Kd5 37. g5 e5 38. Bc1 b2 39. Bxb2 Bxb2 40. g6 e4 41. h6 Ne7 42. g7 e3 
 He's thirsty now!!
43.Rf7 Bxg7 44.hxg7 Ng8 45.Kg2 Ke5 46.Kf3 Kd4 47.Rxb7 +152 

IM2429 wrote:
> 35.Kh1! (ingenious Garry K) b3 36.g4 Kd5 (according to FAQ this is 
> blacks best move) 37.g5 e5 (what else??) 38.Bc1!!?N and now:
> 
> a) 38...b2 39.Bxb2 Bxb2 40.h6 Ne7 41.Rf6! e4 42.h7 Bxf6 43.gxf6 Ng6 
> 44.f7 +-
> 
> b) 38...e4 39.g6 e3 ( 39...Ne7 40.Bg5 +-) 40.h6 e2 ( 40...Ne7 41.g7 
> b2? 42.Bxe3 +-) 41.Re1 Ne7 42.g7 b2 43.Bxb2 and white wins
> 
> 
> I very much think/fear that 36...Kd5 is an immediate loss. Gotta try 
> to make some other 36. move work.

We were only able to notify Irina about IM Regan's suggestion of 
35.Kh1 shortly before she received official notification of the move 
from MSN after which she is not allowed to mention it anyway - so she 
did what she could last night and analyzed it - searching for the 
reason for it and apparently finding it, and looking for a line 
against it. If she (or anyone else) hasn't found one then maybe give 
the opponent some credit - it won't be the first or last time 
Kasparov played a great game. I don't recall anyone (SmartChess 
Online, GM School, BBS analysts etc.) ever mentioning it. The move is 
counter-intuitive and stunning - he's not the world's greatest player 
for nothing.

Interestingly, 2 people voted for 35.Kh1 on the pre-vote site - 
Kasparov and Regan?

Meanwhile she and other "team players" are working on the 
problems.

On Sat Aug 28 16:47:56, Nick Pelling wrote:
> Here's my analysis on the latest FAQ.
> 
> c3c211)
> 37.......Nd3
> 38.g6    Nxf4
> 39.Rxf4  b2
> 40.Rf1   Bg7
> 41.Kg2   b6
> 42.Kh3   b5
> 43.Kg4   Bh6
> 44.Rb1   Bc1
> 45.h6    Kf6! -+   (oops, you got that one wrong)
> 
> c3c2221)
> 40.......b1Q
> 41.Rxb1  Kf5
> 42.Rb5+  Kg6
> 43.Rd5!  Be5! N
> 44.Rb5!  Bf4!
> 45.Rd5!  e6!     This needs further study!!!
> 
> "Permission is granted to include this work in the FAQ, in order 
> to assist my teammates determine our best future course." 


I dont think white plays his rook back and forth when an exchange up. 
I analysed this position after 36...Nb4 37.g5 Nd3 38.h6 Nxf4 39.Rxf4 
b2 40.Rf1 b1=Q 41.Rxb1 Kf5 42.Rb5 Kg6 I think white plays now 
43.Kg2!, dont understand why FAQ gives 43.Rd5 an exclam mark, you 
indeed found a way to draw after it I think, but 43.Kg2 is a problem. 
direct tries fail: 43...Be3 44.Kf3 Bxg5 45.h7 +- or 43...e5 44.Rxb7 
+-, moving back and forth doesnt work either: 43...Be3 44.Kf3 Bc1 
45.Kg4 e6 46.Rf5 Be3 47.Rf8 and white wins, maybe black can try to 
build a fortress? 43...e6 44.Kf3 b6 45.Kg4 Be3 - Rf5 is prevented 
but... 46.h7! Kxh7 47.Kh5 and white wins I think 47...d5 48.Rb3 Bc5 
49.Rf3 d4 50.Rf7+ Kg8 51.Rd7 +-

4FAQ

and you claim I am flaming you, can u posiibly make some sense for a 
change instead of just insulting, what an obnoxious jerk!

Here's the mainline:

35. Kh1 b3
36.  g4 d5!!
37.  g5 Kf7!
38.  Be5+ (What else?)  Kg8
39.  BxB  NxB
40.  What does Garry do now?

The idea is that Black will attack the advanced pawns till they are 
blockaded by the king and then the knight will pick them off while 
the rook has nothing better to do than to clean out the black pawns.  
Draw.

Best for white seems an immediate Re1 and black has to be careful 
about moving e6 because in some lines he needs that square for the 
knight.  Black might be drawing with Nf3 and if Rxe7, b5! with a 
rather nasty threat! (and the King can't move from h1 so easily since 
Nxg5 and the knight is saved from a rook pin by the white king. Like 
I said, make him pay!) Zarkov (via reverse ouija) is finding nothing 
winning for white so far. 

The alternative is to get his king off his ...um, pedestal at h1 , 
and start rushing up the board, but e5 seems to hold, if the king 
rushes up the h file, we push it all the way to e2 and if it comes 
toward the center, we play Ne6 followed by K to the 7th rank, 
blockading and picking off the kingside pawns.

I hereby post this into the public domain and give all parties 
including specifically Irina Krush and her associates and her assigns 
the full right to post it, use it, love it, honor it, and obey it, 
take it home and keep it, with or without attribution, till death do 
us part.

(I'm already dead, so I'll just haunt your houses if you all don't 
give me credit!)

Alexander and the Ouija Girls

On Sat Aug 28 20:39:20, sunderpeeche wrote:
> Two moves ago Bh8 seemed like a good alternative to Bd4+. It was 
> unrefuted. Also unplayed! But I thought maybe some aspects could be 
> resurrected. The theme was that the 2 White pawns could not storm the 
> bishop on their own. Of course the situation is different now. Anyway:
> 
> 35. Kh1   b3
> 36. g4    Bh8
> 37. g5    b2
> 38. g6    Nd4 <--- not possible in lines where bishop stays on d4 
> 39. h6    Nf5
> 
> Well? Probably leaks like a sieve. But anyway both B and N are on the 
> K-side, maybe Black K can go to f6. Possible continuations 40. Rg1 
> Bd4 or 40 Re1+ or 40 Rb1
> 
> Feel free to point out the obvious.
> 
> "Permission is granted to include this work in the FAQ, in order 
> to assist my teammates determine our best future course."

I like 36... Bh8 and this line. It's good to see it re-introduced. 
(mind I was one of those lunatics who thouht it better than 34. Bd4+ 
;))

Nothing jumps out at 40 and slaps me in the face as a problem move 
for Black by White - other than maybe Kh2  - if Kf6 for Black works - 
it looks at first glance playable to me if White tried a king march 
with Kh2 - then no worries. That seems the line to worry about - but 
the last time I said that - man the trouble it caused...

first impresssion - This deserves attention and some harder looks 
from big guns.

I wasn't aware about refutation below. I just posted analysis on this 
line down the BBS, but without countering Bc1!
So, without looking at the board, unless Nd8 or Ne7 do something for 
us Kd5 may be ...
D.M.

On Sat Aug 28 21:57:41, OmniBob wrote:
> The moves 35.. b3 36. g4 Kd5 have been refuted for a while. At the 
> bottom of this post is the original refutation by IM2429. I tried to 
> find a mistake in that refutation, but there aren't any.
> 
> Anyway, my idea for saving the 36.. Kd5 line is that we must play 
> Nd8, followed by Ne6 at some point. Then we will be much safer if GK 
> allows us to trade our bishop or our knight for both his pawns. This 
> idea seems much better than putting the knight at e7. I haven't made 
> a specific line yet.. I could use some help. Is it best to play Nd8 
> on move 37, or later? The main problem in many of the Nd8 lines is 
> that after Ne6, white plays Bg5 and wins the e-pawn.(we can't play 
> Nxg5 or he'll queen)
> 
> Here's the post from IM2429:
> 
> "35.Kh1! (ingenious Garry K) b3 36.g4 Kd5 (according to FAQ this 
> is blacks best move) 37.g5 e5 (what else??) 38.Bc1!!?N and now:
> 
> a) 38...b2 39.Bxb2 Bxb2 40.h6 Ne7 41.Rf6! e4 42.h7 Bxf6 43.gxf6 Ng6 
> 44.f7 +-
> 
> b) 38...e4 39.g6 e3 ( 39...Ne7 40.Bg5 +-) 40.h6 e2 ( 40...Ne7 41.g7 
> b2? 42.Bxe3 +-) 41.Re1 Ne7 42.g7 b2 43.Bxb2 and white wins
> 
> I very much think/fear that 36...Kd5 is an immediate loss. Gotta try 
> to make some other 36. move work."

good morning (at least its morning here)
heres results of my yesterdays analysis, quickly checked this morning:


36...Kd5 was refuted by Bc1 idea, 36...Nb4 leads to very unpleasant 
endgames, Felecans plan leads to clearly lost position (white 
supports g-pawn by Rb5!), b2-ideas do not work. BUT 36...Kd7 may save 
the day!
Those are my current opinions about our 36. move possiblities.

Heres why I like 36...Kd7! (aint it such an odd looking move, but may 
still be a very good one.)

what white can try?

a) 37.h6 b2 38.g5 e5 39.Bd2/Bg3 Ne7 and black has succesfully 
blockaded whites connected passers

*******************************************************

b) 37.g5 e5!

b1) 38.Bc1?, now this doesnt work b2! 39.Bxb2 Bxb2 40.h6 Ne7 41.Rf6 
e4 42.h7 Bxf6 43.gxf6 Ng6 44.f7 Ke7 the difference between Kd5 and 
Kd7 is clearly seen in this variation!

b2) 38.Bg3 b2

b21) 39.Bh4 Ne7

b22) 39.g6 Ne7 40.Kg2 (40.Bh4 Nf5!) e4 41.Bh4 Nf5 42.Bg5 Bg7! 43.Rb1 
Ke6 and black has a very promising position!

b23) 39.Kg2 e4 transposing to 37.Kg2, tho 39...Be3 may be possible 
here allso

*******************************************************

c) 37.Bh6 (given a ! by Krush with the words I cannot find defense 
after this move but there is a defense I think) 37...b2 38.g5 (what 
else??) 38...Be3! 39.Rb1 Nd8! 40.Rxb2 Nf7 41.Rxb7+ Ke6 and draw is a 
very probable outcome I think!

*******************************************************


d) 37.Kg2!? (the same position with the expeption that black king was 
at e6 was possible after 35.Kg2 b3 36.g4) and now:

d1) 37...b2?! 38.g5 Nb4 (I doubt this plan works here) 39.g6 Nd3 
40.Kf3 Nc1 41.Rxc1 bxc1 42.Bxc1 Ke6 43.Kg4 and white wins I think

better is:

d2) 37...e5 38.Bg3 e4 39.g5 b2 40.Kh3 e3 (I dont like 40...Be3 41.Rb1 
Bxg5 42.Rxb2, but that doesnt mean black couldnt survive there) 
41.Kg4 (to me it seems that whites passed pawns cannot succeed with 
only the bishop helping them and when R is tied to b-pawn King must 
take the task) 

after 41.Kg4:

d21) 41...Bc3!? 42.Rb1 (42.Kf3? Nd4+! 43.Kxe3 Be1!!, nice! or 42.h6 
Ne5+ 43.Kf5 Nf3 44.Rb1 Nd2 45.Rxb2 Bxb2 46.Kg6 Ne4 or 46.g6 Ke7 -+) 
42...Ke6 ( 42...d5!?) 43.h6/g6 with very unclear play; e.g. 43.g6 e2 
44.h6 Ne5+ 45.Kh5 Nf3!? oo

note that black can in some lines sac the knight to g- (or h) -pawn 
and start a king march, 

for example:

d22) 41...Ke6!? 42.h6 Ne7 43.Rb1 Kd5!? with an unclear position e.g 
44.Kh5 Nf5 45.Be1 Nxh6!? 46. xh6 Ke4 with good play for black I think

*******************************************************

e-?) I cant find white any other logical 37. move tries

Its impossible to solve these lines alone. Comments and corrections 
most welcome.

Lets solve if 36...Kd7 works or not


IM2429

"Permission is granted to include this work in the FAQ, in order 
to assist my teammates determine our best future course."
D.M.

35.Kh1 b3 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e5 38.Bc1!!?N and now: 38...b2! 39.Bxb2 
Bxb2 40.h6 Ne7 41.Rf6! e4 42.h7 Ng6!! (Bxf6? 43.gxf6 Ng6 44.f7) 
43.Rg6: e3! 44.Rg8 e2! 45.Re8 Be5!
D.M.

NT

On Sat Aug 28 23:02:40, Dubravko Mazur wrote:
> "Permission is granted to include this work in the FAQ, in order 
> to assist my teammates determine our best future course."
> D.M.
> 
> 35.Kh1 b3 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e5 38.Bc1!!?N and now: 38...b2! 39.Bxb2 
> Bxb2 40.h6 Ne7 41.Rf6! e4 42.h7 Ng6!! (Bxf6? 43.gxf6 Ng6 44.f7) 
> 43.Rg6: e3! 44.Rg8 e2! 45.Re8 Be5!
> D.M.

A single brain who can find a move that :
(a) A few zillion computers
(b) A bunch of GMs
(c) The lay public
put their brains together and MISSED.

I still think Fischer is greatest, but GK is maybe
just beyond the greatest.

QED. <- having a hard time with particle physics

I almost put this in my other, long post: If
35...Ne5, 36. Bxe5 Bxe5, White can usefully hinder Black's b-pawn by 
37. Rf3, which I think rates a "!"
Then 37...Kd5 38. Kg2 (or g4 first)  Kc4 39. g4 b3 40. Rf1! b2 41. 
Kf3 and I think Black is too slow...
E.g. 41...Bc3 42. h6 (Ke3!?) Kd3 43. g5 Bd2 44. h7 Bc3 (...Bc1 45. 
h8Q and Qh7+) 45. Kg4 Kc2 46. Kh5 and it's not close; or 42...Kb3 43. 
g5 Bd2 44. h7 Bc1 45. h8Q b1Q 46. Qg8+! Kb4 (or b2) 47. Qd5! is a 
winner, I fear.
So close!  I wasn't sure of this while making the other post...anyone 
got an answer for it?

BTW, the analysis in my long post is relevant to cases that come up 
here if White doesn't play 37. Rf3.  Also, the double-occurrence of 
"43. Be3" ion that post was not a mistake---I was just 
prefacing the whole analysis with why Black couldn't grab White's 
g-pawn right off.
In the 35...Ne5 36. Bxe5 Bxe5 lines without 37. Rf3, Black seems to 
get much better versions of the endgames in my other post, and 
concern for that has kept me up...But unless 37. Rf3 is answered 
here, the choice 35...b3 seems clear.

make up your darn minds, cuz dude we are running short of time to 
start the wagon train rolling!!!!!!

Regards

On Sat Aug 28 23:37:13, K.W.ReganIM2405 wrote:
> I almost put this in my other, long post: If
> 35...Ne5, 36. Bxe5 Bxe5, White can usefully hinder Black's b-pawn by 
> 37. Rf3, which I think rates a "!"
> Then 37...Kd5 38. Kg2 (or g4 first)  Kc4 39. g4 b3 40. Rf1! b2 41. 
> Kf3 and I think Black is too slow...
> E.g. 41...Bc3 42. h6 (Ke3!?) Kd3 43. g5 Bd2 44. h7 Bc3 (...Bc1 45. 
> h8Q and Qh7+) 45. Kg4 Kc2 46. Kh5 and it's not close; or 42...Kb3 43. 
> g5 Bd2 44. h7 Bc1 45. h8Q b1Q 46. Qg8+! Kb4 (or b2) 47. Qd5! is a 
> winner, I fear.
> So close!  I wasn't sure of this while making the other post...anyone 
> got an answer for it?

No, I ran through it quickly once, no way I can find an antidote 
tonight, and your assessment looks correct at first blush.  Anyway I 
think we should pool our IM talents since we don't have many. ;) Why 
don't you take a look at IM2429's Kd7 post a few lines down?  Those 
lines look good and need heavy analysis ASAP.

IM2429 already refuted this.  See his post down a ways "some 
corrections" or something like that.

JaCP


On Sun Aug 29 00:02:21, Pete Rihaczek wrote:
> On Sat Aug 28 23:37:13, K.W.ReganIM2405 wrote:
> > I almost put this in my other, long post: If
> > 35...Ne5, 36. Bxe5 Bxe5, White can usefully hinder Black's b-pawn by 
> > 37. Rf3, which I think rates a "!"
> > Then 37...Kd5 38. Kg2 (or g4 first)  Kc4 39. g4 b3 40. Rf1! b2 41. 
> > Kf3 and I think Black is too slow...
> > E.g. 41...Bc3 42. h6 (Ke3!?) Kd3 43. g5 Bd2 44. h7 Bc3 (...Bc1 45. 
> > h8Q and Qh7+) 45. Kg4 Kc2 46. Kh5 and it's not close; or 42...Kb3 43. 
> > g5 Bd2 44. h7 Bc1 45. h8Q b1Q 46. Qg8+! Kb4 (or b2) 47. Qd5! is a 
> > winner, I fear.
> > So close!  I wasn't sure of this while making the other post...anyone 
> > got an answer for it?
> 
> No, I ran through it quickly once, no way I can find an antidote 
> tonight, and your assessment looks correct at first blush.  Anyway I 
> think we should pool our IM talents since we don't have many. ;) Why 
> don't you take a look at IM2429's Kd7 post a few lines down?  Those 
> lines look good and need heavy analysis ASAP.

Fritz 5.32 sez:

I have been running our current position in correspondence analysis 
mode for the last few hours.
So far it is exactly the same as the one given by Danny King.  
Hopefully I will find a better move for Black since Danny says this 
ends "with a winning position for White!!".

35...b3
36.g4 b2
37.g5 Nb4

All moves were at a full 14 ply forced.

I just finished 13 ply on the next move and still I agree with Danny:

38.g6

Fritz 5.32 sez

For hxg7 line, see CRITICAL ENDING towards the end!!
I am running Fritz on position after 45.Bxb2 Bxb2. Calling DR. 
ZARKOV!! and others!!


This line is exciting - but has been explained haphazardly. This is 
an attempt to demo it clearly so others can help. A few questions and 
credits (approximate) at end: 

35. Kh1 b3   this will win vote, forget Kd5/Ne5 
36. g4 Kd5 
37. g5 b2      not in FAQ 
38. h6 Nd8   heading for the fleet 
39. g6 Ne6   aiming for the carrier 
40. g7 Nxg7 BANZAI!!!  
41. hg Bxg7 and White cant stop Kc4/Kb3/Ka2/b1 

so how does White improve? h7 only makes the g7/h8 blockade more 
effective. The rook is pinned to first rank so the N on e6 (or f5 û 
see below) is invulnerable - except for the White King. Similarly for 
the B on the long diagonal - it cant be opposed without the king's 
aid. 40. g7 must be wrong. So let's call the position after 39.g6 Ne6 
"KN-A" (Kamikaze Night variation, position A) and work from 
there! 

Before getting to 40.Bg5, which we have a defense for, let us note 
that after 39.g6 Ne6, White can NOT advance his king because of Nxf4 
recovering defense of g7 via a N check. After 40.Kh2 Ke4 the White 
King goes no farther, while Black King is closer to b1. Due to the 
interest in 40.Bg5, I leave this as an exercise. 

40.Bg5 has two ideas: (a) Bxe7/Bf8 then g7 Nxg7 Bxg7 so the h pawn 
queens and (b) Bxd6/Ba3/Bxb2 freeing the rook. Unbelievably, there 
appears to be a defense: transfer the N to f5 so g7 is answered by 
Nh6 for threat (a) and the king to b3 to stop (b). How does the N get 
to f5? By bouncing off the aircraft carrier (g7). Black must reply 
Ng7! (yes, missing the carrier!) and Kc4 - the order may not matter 
and we don't care about the d and e pawns. 

The Bg5 mainline has a lot of mysterious moves so let me give it 
first: 40.Bg5 Kc4! 41.Bxe7 Ng7 42.Bxd6 Nf5 43.Bf4 Kd3. Wow! None of 
this is my work so I shared your amazement! The N relocates to f5 to 
control h6, the K has to vacate d5 to stop Rxf5+. 

Sure computers hate this line but let's play it out: 44.Kh2 Kc2 
45.Kh3 b1Q 46.Rxb1 Kxb1 47.Kg4 Nxh6 48.Bxh6 Kc2 49.Kf5 b5 50.Bg5 
(50.Bf8 Kc3==) b4 51.Bf6 Bxf6 52.Kxf6 b3 == by one tempo! 

Another line is 42.Bf8 Nf5 43.Kh2 Kd3 44.h7 Bh8 45.Rg1 Ng7 46.Bxg7 
Bxg7 47.Kg3 Kc2 48.Kf4 b1=Q 49.Rxb1 Kxb1 50.Kf5 - a serious attempt. 
However 50...d5! 51.Ke6 d4 52.Kf7 d3 53.Kxg7 d2 54.h8=Q d1=Q is a 
draw even without the b7 pawn - due to fortunate position of Black 
king (Nunn - Secrets of Practical Chess). Also note that taking d6 
costs White more than one tempo - and, even if it falls to one tempo, 
the b pawn is only one tempo slower than the d pawn (because the 
Black K must vacate b1). 

***CRITICAL Francis C. points out that White can throw in 49.Rf2+ Kc3 
50.Rxb2 Kxb2 before 51.Kf5; then all moves are the same (numbered one 
higher) and after 55àd1=Q, the Black K is on b2, not b1. We think 
this is still a draw. û CRITICAL ***

***NOTE Earlier version gave 40.Bg5 Ng7? When 41.h6 wins (Wolf). ***
Question: does 39.Bc3 Be5 change things? Note 39àBc3 is BAD due to 
40.Bd2 Bd4 41.Bb4 with
The idea Ba3 and Bxb2. With the B on e5, Black can play Nf5 before 
Kc4 û there is no Rxf5+ now û
So most lines are actually better. IM2429Æs attempt to win with this 
came down to the Q+p ending discussed above.

***CRITICAL 39.Bc3 Be5 40.Bd2 Kc4 (Ke4 41.Rb1 Kf5 42.g7 Nxg7 43.hg 
Bxg7 44.Re1 Kg4
45.Kg2 Bd4! Can White make progress?) 41.Bc1 looks like trouble û 
CRITICAL ***

Disclaimers:
==========

"Permission is granted to include this work in the FAQ, in order 
to assist my teammates determine our best future course." 

ôNo Japanese pilots were killed or injured in preparation of this 
document.ö

ôI have the highest respect for all Japanese and, in particular, for 
members of the Japanese Imperial Army.ö

Hi Ross A, you misread my analysis: 41...Kc4 42.Rb1, BUT 41...Ke4 
42.Bb4! etc. see the original post

Heres why I think its dead lost:(REPOST) allso note line 3.

1) I think Bd2 idea is a simple win (at least noone of you refuted 
it, in Ross Amanns try he gave 41...Ke4 42.Rb1, BUT my line went 
42.Bb4, only 44.Rb1 to see the moves check my post earlier)

2) Queen Ending may be lost, difficult to say, so many queen endings 
have been re-assessed because of computers

3) EASIEST WAY TO WIN tho is: 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 b2 38.g6 Nd8 39.h6 Ne6 
40.Be3! Be5 41.Bg5! and now:

a) 41...Kc4 42.Bxe7 Ng7 43.Bxd6 winning a TEMPI

b) 41...Ng7 42.h7 and now:

42...Nf5 43.Kg2(h3-g4) +-
42...Ne6 43.Bh6 Bh8 44.Rb1! +-


I think some one posted here similar lines that 40.Bg5 Ng7 41.h7 
doesnt work. Now ...Kc4 doesnt work either I think. White wins a 
tempo by playing Bxd6.

R.I.P.


Sorry I read less than 10% of the posts. Has this been refuted, 
what am I missing?

36.g4 Nb4 37.Bd2 Nc2 38.Bc1 ian Bc1 38.Bc1 b5 39.Rd1 b4 40.Rd2 Bc3 
41.Re2+ Kd7 41.g5 14/28 =/+(-.38) start 8/29 17:00 est updated 19:40 
Fritz4 working - looks unlikely. interesting idea pushing b7 pawn 


I don't know about anyone else, but I am that desperate

This was the move Spy 49 sent me, ross u were saying h6 won easy, is 
this still true?

see 2 posts below for lines, he has avoided my Zarkov death line, as 
did Spy, which was why I made a note to look at it as serious 
attempt. 

It is by far the best move order on the sane side of the Kamikaze II !

Maybe they have a secret line for Rd1, it looks like a clear edge for 
me:

35. Kh1 b3 36. g4 Kd5 37. g5 e6 38. g6 Ne7 39. Rd1 b2 40. Bxd6 b1=Q 
41. Rxb1 Kxd6 42. Rxb7 

pv Nf5 Kh2 Kc6 Rh7 Be5+ Kh3 Bg7 Kg4 +54 [Zarkov] pv 


I see the ending they give as a draw a draw, but this quick cash in 
is hard to avoid, e5 seems to transpose to Bg5 lines, a tempo down 
for the free rd1, 

I think it may be drawable, but now 38...ne7 seems =.
we need to sort the lines and have a day, too bad GM Chess won't 
share.

On Sun Aug 29 19:28:52,


The best I have found is a well times Rd1, and if e5 then white can 
transpose or try to use e5!

As I said what about main lines? as in Bc1? then we needed e3 to 
draw, 
 35. Kh1 b3 36. g4 Kd5 37. g5 e6 38. g6 Ne7 39. Bc1 Nf5 40. h6 (pv 
Ng3+ Kg2 Nxf1 Kxf1 Be3 g7 Bxh6 g8 Bxc1 Qg2+ Kc4 Qxb7 +79 [Zarkov] )

Ng3+ 41. Kg2 Nxf1 42. g7 b2 43. Bxb2 Ne3+ 44. Kf3 Nf5 45. g8=Q Bxb2 
46. h7 b5 47. h8=Q Bxh8 48. Qxh8 +200 easy win

other test is Rd1: 35. Kh1 b3 36. g4 Kd5 37. g5 e6 38. g6 Ne7 39. Rd1 
b2 40. Bxd6 b1=Q 41. Rxb1 Kxd6 42. Rxb7 

pv Nf5 Kh2 Kc6 Rh7 Be5+ Kh3 Bg7 Kg4 +54 [Zarkov] pv 







 saves a tempo over e5 - Ross Amann wrote:
> particularly since e5 Bc1 turned out to be useful for White due to 
> Bxb2 ideas. So far the line looks good - more testing tomorrow!
> 
> On Sun Aug 29 19:16:41, Steve B. wrote:
> > Russian GM school offers the following:
> > 
> > 35. Kh1   b3
> > 36. g4    Kd5!
> > 37. g5    e6!!
> > 38. g6    Ne7!
> > 
> > The "!'s" are by the GM school.
> > 
> > 39. Bg5   Nf5
> > 40. Kg2   b2
> > 41. h6    Ke4
> > 
> > Any comments on the soundness of this analysis?  After getting a 
> > scare from 37... e5 38. Bc1, not to mention talk of the refuted 
> > Kamakazi Knight lines, any good news would be welcome news.
> > 
> > Regards, Steve B.

38.Bc1 b2 39.Bxb2 Bxb2 40.h6 Ne7 41.h7 e4 42.Rf6! Bxf6 43.gxf Ng6 
44.f7

Computer Chess Team or Someone with a Good computer and good program 
needed to run this, its very crucial for the playability of 36...Kd5:

36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e5 38.Bc1 Ne7 39.g6 b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 41.Kh2 Kc4 42.Kh3 
Kd3 43.h6 e4 44.Kg4 Nxh6+ 45.Bxh6 Kc2 46.Kf5 e3!(Juhnke) 47.Bxe3 Bxe3 
48.g7 Bc1 49.Rf2+ Bd2 50.g8=Q b1=Q

or 49.g8=Q b1=Q

both these positions should be run with a computer I think because: 
White king can hide from checks and black king position is rather 
unpleasant. And theres very long lines where I think white king can 
take part in attack with the support of rook, black can only try to 
exchange queens or make a perpetual.


Does anyone know "theoretical truth" about Q+R v Q+B no pawns 
endgame? Has such been ever analysed?

When one is stupid one just cant help it seems like. So easy move 
order trick and I spend hours analysing needless lines.

36.g4 Kd5?! 37.g5 e5?! loses IMO 38.Bc1 Ne7 39.g6 b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 
41.Kh2 Kc4 42.Kh3 Kd3 43.Kg4!! - not allowing any Nxh6 tricks! 
43...Ng7 44.h6 e4 45.h7! Ne6 46.Bh6 Bh8 47.Rd1+! ( not 47.Rb1 as I 
earlier posted, because of 47...e3!) 47...Kc2 (47...Kc3 48.Kf5, 
47...Ke2 48.Rd2+) 48.Rd2+ Kb3/c3 49.Rxb2+ Kxb2 50.Kf5 Ng7+ (50...Nd4+ 
51.Kxe4 Ne6 52.Kd5 +-) 51.Kf6!! 

and now: 51...Nh5+ 52.Kf7 e3 53.Bxe3+- or 51...e3 52.Bxg7 e2 53.Bxh8 
e1=Q 54.Kf7+! and black cannot stop white queening! +-

No reason for Knight endgames or QRvQB, or muddy e3 chances. This 
wins clear and pure Im *sure*. Help me work this out 100%. I 
think we can NOT play 36...Kd5?! and in particular NO 37...e5?


Sorry for the numerous mistakes in my previous try. I should think 
first and post only tehn.

See my post above


On Mon Aug 30 04:15:54, IM2429 wrote:
> Computer Chess Team or Someone with a Good computer and good program 
> needed to run this, its very crucial for the playability of 36...Kd5:
> 
> 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e5 38.Bc1 Ne7 39.g6 b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 41.Kh2 Kc4 42.Kh3 
> Kd3 43.h6 e4 44.Kg4 Nxh6+ 45.Bxh6 Kc2 46.Kf5 e3!(Juhnke) 47.Bxe3 Bxe3 
> 48.g7 Bc1 49.Rf2+ Bd2 50.g8=Q b1=Q
> 
> or 49.g8=Q b1=Q
> 
> both these positions should be run with a computer I think because: 
> White king can hide from checks and black king position is rather 
> unpleasant. And theres very long lines where I think white king can 
> take part in attack with the support of rook, black can only try to 
> exchange queens or make a perpetual.
> 
> 
> Does anyone know "theoretical truth" about Q+R v Q+B no pawns 
> endgame? Has such been ever analysed?

39. Bh6 Nf2+!

40. Kg2 Ng4!

41 Bd2  Bg7 [White's pawns stopped, black's king & 
             centre pawns roll...]
            [if 41g7?Bxg742Bxg743Ne6+ forking the
             rook]


If 
39. h6 Kf6

40. g7 Kf7

41. Kg3 Kg8 [if 41.Kf3 Nh3! 42.Rh1 Kh2!etc..]

42. Kh4 Ne5!etc..


WORLD CAN WIN!!!

I DONT trust 36...Kd5, 36...Nb4 goes to a very unpleasant endgame, if 
there is a third possibility I would suggest to go for it. It should 
be worked out whether Suttles line is anything serious or not.

36...b2 37.g5 Bh8(Suttles!) 38.g6 Nd4 39.h6 Nf5 40.Kh2 Kd5 41.Kh3 
Kc4!(DK) 42.Kg4 e6!, Im quite sure that this position is a DRAW, and 
all white moves were so logical, what else?

38.Bd2!(Suttles) then 38...Nd4 39.Bc3 Ne2 40.Bxh8 Ng3+ 41.Kg2 Nxf1 
42.Bxb2 Ne3+ 43.Kf3 Nf5 44.g6 d5 45.Kg4 d4 46.Kg5 d3 47.Bc1 and white 
wins

What else if black cannot play 38...Nd4? maybe 38...?, you tell me I 
cannot find anything logical


Lets try 'accelerated' Suttles: 36...Bh8 and if 37.g5 then 37...Nd4 
and white cannot prevent b2 I think, so it transposes to the better 
line above

And 37.Bd2 does this make any difference? ....cant find a move for 
black.

Doesnt look very good in Suttles line either; any improvement tries?

with Chessboard:
http://www.comicastle.com/99percent/pgn2.html?PGN=083001.pgn
without Chessboard (for bandwidth challenged systems)
http://www.comicastle.com/cgi-bin/pgn.pl?T1=083001.pgn

Also checkout Barnet Chess Club's analysis of the whole game:
http://www.comicastle.com/99percent/pgn2.html?PGN=bcc_analysis.pgn

BTW, I am working on more features and improvements, stay tuned.

99% Energy

THE WORLD WINS!!! 

see several POSTINGS BELOW

This is referring to Irinas's last message and goodbye
to FAQ posted by SmartChess as can be reviewed here:
http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/vm/51033.asp

We can imagine very directly of what kind those
mentioned emails are. The same problem exists on
the popular chess servers. Noname patzers insult
good players. It is a shame for the game of chess.
Some responses to the above mentioned message already
show the bad nature of these "chess friends".

"Irina is a loser after all" 
host: sdn-ar-001casbarp294.dialsprint.net
no, it is really not worth reading, you idiot

Many people should be banned from chess servers, just
to name an example, and I mean, really banned also
from guest use (via IP identification) , but in practice that is not 
possible because those servers
want to make money also and mainly from patzers.

I have checked some of the lines given in Irina's FAQ after 36.g4, 
and didn't realy like any of them for Black. 36...Kd5 doesn't make 
much sense to me after our pawn push, and the knight-excursions seem 
futile. I think we need to advance our b-pawn to the second row to 
pin White's Rook on the first, and we need to bring our King over the 
f-file to defend against White's rapid advance. Kf7 doesn't do it 
though because it is too passive and looses a pawn right away, too. 
How about:

36. g4   b2
37. g5  Kf5

A)
  38.Bd2+ Kg4
  39. h6  Kh5

and we can continue with knight moves and pushing the other pawns 
after getting to g6

B)
  38.Be3+ Kg4
  39.Bxd4 Nxd4
  40. g6  Nf5
  41. g7  Nh6

or

C)
  38. g6  Kg4
  39. h6   e6
  40. g7  Ne7

and Black seems to be holding the White pawns, and can start 
advancing its own.

In these variations we are fully taking advantage of White's deprived 
King.

Any oversight in the above?

Thanks,

Peter

If you want to post analysis, please check it thoroughly first. Chess 
analysis isn't something you can do during a couple of minutes of 
down time at work, it requires careful study. 

Please get rid of those typos before you post anything, and remember 
that capital letters and multiple exclamation points are irritating 
to the reader.

Don't make exaggerated claims that your line wins. In the current 
position, Kasparov is the only one who is likely to win. The 
challenge for the world team is to find a way to draw.

Don't keep posting over and over again, spamming the BB with unwanted 
messages. Our position is CRITICAL right now, and the world team's 
analysts don't need this distraction.

On Mon Aug 30 07:05:57, Martin Sims wrote:
> If you want to post analysis, please check it thoroughly first. Chess 
> analysis isn't something you can do during a couple of minutes of 
> down time at work, it requires careful study. 
> 
> Please get rid of those typos before you post anything, and remember 
> that capital letters and multiple exclamation points are irritating 
> to the reader.
> 
> Don't make exaggerated claims that your line wins. In the current 
> position, Kasparov is the only one who is likely to win. The 
> challenge for the world team is to find a way to draw.
> 
> Don't keep posting over and over again, spamming the BB with unwanted 
> messages. Our position is CRITICAL right now, and the world team's 
> analysts don't need this distraction.


I WILL MAKE SURE VERY RARE TYPO etc, BUT U DO PAUSE FROM YOUR 
HEADLONG RUSH INTO LOSING LINES CONSIDERATIONS... DO SPEND 5 MINUTES 
AWAY FROM DOOM & POST YOUR REFUTATIONS OF THE WINNING LINES...

Hmmmm this post was going to be a "I prefer 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e6 to
36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e5" post but it's not anymore.  Anyway there
is some new stuff in here if you want to look.

(all of this analysis may be included in the FAQ)

This is based on computer analysis, with a bit of "this must
be a draw" intuition at some end points.

36. g4 Kd5 37. g5 (37. Bh6 Kc4! draws) e5 (not 37...Nd8 38. g6 Ne6 39.
h6 b2 40. Bg5 etc) 38. Bc1 Ne7 (38...b2?? 39. Bxb2 Bxb2 40.h6 wins,
38...e4 39. g6 b2 40.Bxb2 Bxb2 41.h6, same theme) 39. g6
is +0.94 at 17 ply, PV 39... b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 41.Kh2 e4.

So...

36. g4 Kd5 37. g5 e6 (38.g6 is +0.51 at 17 ply)

then:
38. g6 Ne7 and now

39. Bc1? b2! is good for Black (-0.91)

39. Rb1 b2 is =

39. Rd1 b2 (or 39...Kc4 40.Bg5 Nf5, currently = at shallow depth) 
40.Bxd6
b1=Q 41.Rxb1 Kxd6 42.Rxb7 Bg7 43.Kg2 Nf5 and though it is +0.78
for White, it must surely be a draw (there's the intuition for you).

39.Bg5 Nf5 40.Kg2 Bg7 41.Rxf5+ exf5 42.h6 Bxh6 43.Bxh6 b2 44.g7 b1=Q
45.g8=Q+ is looking drawn, or 40...b2 41. h6 Kc4!! winning
for Black (not the gmschool's 41...Ke4? 42.Rd1)

or

38.Rd1 b2 and it looks like White's best is transposing with 39.g6

or

38.Bc1 b2, is OK.  (I hope... 39.Bxb2 Bxb2 40.Rf7 Ne5, because
the e5 square is now not occupied by a pawn)

*BUT* (I got this next White move from the smartchess FAQ)

38.h6 Ne7 39.Rd1 b2 40.h7 Ng6 41.Bxd6 b1=Q 42.Rxb1 Kxd6 43.Rxb7 Bh8 
44.Rf7
is lost for Black (I think) and I can't see any improvements, 
ARGH!!!!  (update: unless ...Kc4,
...e5, or ...Kc5 works somewhere this line is stuffed).

I fear there are a multitude of ways to refute 36...Bh8 (simply 
g5,g6,h6 etc)
36...Kd7 (despite Hiarcs, Bh6 or Bd2) or 36...b2 &
Nb4 (see gmschool analysis).

(there is no conclusion, sorry)

join the computer chess team
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

!

.

nt

41. Kf3 Nh6
42. Rh1 Kh7! White's Pawns stopped, Black's centre Pawns Roll on..

If
41. Kg3 Kg8
42. Kh4 Ne5! ..


THE WORLD CAN WIN... LATE FOUND WINNING LINES..

On Mon Aug 30 07:33:02, Bob wrote:
> 
> 41. Kf3 Nh6
> 42. Rh1 Kh7! White's Pawns stopped, Black's centre Pawns Roll on..
> 
> If
> 41. Kg3 Kg8
> 42. Kh4 Ne5! ..
> 
> 
> THE WORLD CAN WIN... LATE FOUND WINNING LINES..

LATE FOUND WINNING LINES...

Gotta log off - my meter just ran out

Nothing's simple as it seems - Bh8 is looking iffy 

     35. Kh1 b3 
     36. g4 Bh8 
     37. g5 Nd4 
     38. g6 (if Bd2 see below)  b2 
     39. h6 Nf5 
     40. Kh2 Kd5 
     41. Kh3 Kc4 <--- vital for survival I think  
     42. Kg4 e6 
     43. g7 Nxg7 
     44. hxg7 Bxg7 
     45. Bxd6 Kb3 
     46. Kf3 Kc2 
     47. Rf2+ 

     looks  drawish

IF 38. Bd2 

Now what - if 38...b2
39. Bc3! (ick!!)  

 ...Ne2
40. Bxh8 Ng3+ 
41. Kg2 Nxf1 
42. Bxb2 Ne3+ 
43. Kf3 Nf5 
44. h6 (see g6 below ) Nh4+ 
45. Kg4 Ng6 
46. h7 Kf7 
47. h8=Q Nxh8 
48. Bxh8 Kg6

and we're three pawns to a bishop and a pawn - what does that mean? 
Trouble probably 

OR alternatively 

maybe g6

44. g6 d5 
45. Kg4 d4 
46. Bc1 Kf6 
47. Bg5+ Ke6 
48. h6 Nxh6+ 
49. Bxh6 d3 
50. Kf3 b5 
51. Ke3 Kf6 
52. g7 Kf7
53. Kxd3 e5 
54. Ke4 b4

Where are we at here? Can we hang on?

Seems for sure 39. Bc3 is a problem we could ideally do without


Someone else will need to run with this to try and bring it back from 
the grave if other lines fail
DK

Has anyone noticed the board postion? It is incorrect. White's King 
should be on h1 and Black's b4 Pawn should now be on b3 (world team 
last move 35...b3)

Has MSN been notified of this error?

This commentary on the world chess game is early, because it was 
originally intended to be completed at the end of this game, but I 
decided to give a partial analysis now, before this game is finally 
over. - GM2505  

Analysis and commentary on the chess game: Kasparov  vs. The World

WHITE: Garry Kasparov (World Champion)
BLACK: The World (Players from all over the World... Including yours 
truly! :)
OPENING: Sicilian Defense

1.e4  c5

From the very start, I disagreed with the world players choice of 
opening defense. Why? Because Mr. Kasparov is more than exceptional 
on both sides of the Sicilian Defense. I would have preferred to see 
the French Defense, Petroff Defense, or Pirc Defense. Even the Center 
Counter Defense might have surprised the World Champion. However, 
this is all in the past now.

2.Nf3  d6  3.Bb5+  Bd7  4.Bxd7+  Qxd7  5.c4  Nc6  6.Nc3  Nf6
7.0-0  g6  8.d4  cxd4  9.Nxd4  Bg7  10.Nde2  Qe6!?

A very interesting and innovative move chosen by the world team. 
However, I thought (at the time, and still think in the present) that 
such strategy against Garry Kasparov  was a very dangerous course to 
take. Of course, Castling (10...0-0) would have been a much sounder 
and safer road to take.

11.Nd5  Qxe4  12.Nc7+  Kd7  13.Nxa8  Qxc4  14.Nb6+ ...

The first (of many ahead) "crossroads" positions. The major 
concern for Black in this position, of course, is the precarious 
position of the Black King in the center, and the weakened Pawn 
structure on Black's Queen's side.

(A) 14.b3!? Qh4 15.Bf4! (15.Nb6+ axb6 16.Bf4 Nh5 17.Bg3 Nxg3 18.fxg3 
Qg5 =) 15...Rxa8 16.Rc1 Rc8 17.Qd2 h6 18.Bg3 Qh5 =.
(B) 14.Nf4!? Rxa8 15.b3! Qe4 16.Re1! Qf5 17.Be3 Rc8 18.Rc1 Ng4 =.

14... axb6  15.Nc3  Ra8! =

I was sitting on "pins and needles" waiting for the world 
team to vote for this move. This was the second "crossroads" 
position, with the difference being that it was Black's turn to 
choose the correct road. It is realized that many will disagree that 
this was the "correct road," but this is the way of chess... 
The "roads" to choose are endless in every position that 
arises!

16.a4!?  ...

Was this Pawn advance provoked by the Rook move to a8?

The third "crossroads" position (second for White) and I 
still firmly believe that this advance of the a-Pawn is a positional 
error by Mr. Kasparov. Why? Because the advance of the a-Pawn to a4, 
weakens White's b3 and b4 squares, by digging "holes" in 
White's position. "Holes" is chess term "jargon" 
meaning that Black could now occupy b3 and b4 (either or both) with 
his pieces, and White could not attack them with any of his Pawns.

(A) 16.Be3! Ra6!  (Not 16...Nb4?! 17.Qf3 Kc7 18.Rfc1 Kb8, =+ for 
White.) 17.Rc1! Ne4! This Knight maneuver is good here. 18.Nxe4 Qxe4 
19.Qb3 Qe6! 20.Rc4!? Bxb2!! 21.Bxb6! = and it is unclear where Black 
should retreat the Bishop. 21...Bg7!? =, with a very complex and 
difficult struggle ahead. Apparently Mr. Kasparov did not want any 
part of this variation to occur, and could be another reason for his 
decision to play 16.a4!? instead.
(B) 16.Re1?! Kc8! 17.Be3 Nd7 18.Qd2 Bxc3 19.Qxc3 Qxc3 20.bxc3 Ra3  
=+, advantage for Black. But Black could only dream for the Queen 
exchange to occur, resulting in this possible position.

Let us now pause for a moment... And go back to the position after 
White's 15.Nc3.
I noticed that many world players wanted to reply with 15...b5?! Some 
of you might be interested in the following analysis concerning the 
alternative: 15...b5?! 16.Be3!
(A) 16...b4?! 17.Na4 Ke8 18.Nb6 Qh4 19.Qb3! Ng4!? 20.Bf4!! How does 
Black proceed with the attack now? Not 20...Nd4?? 21.Qa4+! Winning 
for White. Almost equally bad would be 20...Be5? 21.Bxe5, with a 
clear advantage for White.    
(B) 16...Ra8!? (too late) 17.Rc1 =+ for White, and Black's best move 
here is unclear.

This is a good time to express my opinion on doing extensive, and 
sometimes very exhaustive analysis work on moves that were not played 
in a game. It becomes meaningless (and sometimes worthless) unless it 
helps us in our own personal studies of chess positions.

Back to the game! 

The fourth "crossroads" position (second for Black) and one 
of the key positions in the game thus far.

16... Ne4?!

A very questionable and costly positional error by the world players. 
By making this Knight maneuver, Black has "tossed away" any 
possible winning prospects. This was no time to engage White in the 
field of battle by challenging a Knight "joust."
Black's Queen, Rook, Bishop, and both Knights, were in ideal 
positions, and there was no need to move any of them in this 
position! Instead, Black should have remained patient and grouped his 
forces for attacking prospects on both the King's side and the 
Queen's side, along with the center control that has already been 
achieved. The alternatives were:

(A) 16...e6!
(B) 16...Ke8!
(C) 16...Kc8!?

Extensive analysis on these three alternatives will be completed at a 
later time. It is not often that players have three good positional 
choices in a position, and decide to choose a bad continuation apart 
from these. (?)

At first, I thought that 16...Kc8!? would have been the most 
profound, but I have since concluded that 16...e6! would have been 
Black's best move here. The second choice has now become 16...Ke8! 
The plan behind moving the King, would be to "open the door" 
for the Nf6 to maneuver to d7, from whence it could then maneuver to 
either the center, and thereby threaten White's King position, or go 
to support the attack on the Queen's side.

However, all of this (above) has now become history... and the scales 
have tipped in favor of White.

17.Nxe4!  Qxe4

Now Mr. Kasparov's Queen enters the battle, and the world players 
have a difficult struggle ahead.

18.Qb3!  f5?!  19.Bg5!  Qb4!?  20.Qf7!!  Be5?!  21.h3!  Rxa4!?

Attack or defense? This was the question for Black to answer here. 
21.Rh8!?

22.Rxa4!?  ...

22.Rad1!? would have kept the position complicated with some very 
difficult positional problems for Black to solve.

22...Qxa4  23.Qxh7  Bxb2  24.Qxg6  Qe4  25.Qf7!  Bd4  26.Qb3  f4  
27.Qf7  Be5  28.h4  b5  29.h5  Qc4?!

Thorough analysis on this position was submitted to the world team 
before Black's 29th move. In my opinion, the analysis clearly shows 
that 29...Qe2! would have produced much better prospects for Black to 
achieve a draw, and maybe even a win in some variations!

30.Qf5+  Qe6  31.Qxe6+  Kxe6  32.g3!  fxg3  33.fxg3!  b4!?  

A very difficult decision, leaving very little doubt, that the move 
chosen here by the world team, directly influenced the outcome of 
this game. Admittedly, I also voted for this move, mainly because of 
the fact that the game continued to follow the course along Irina 
Krush's lines, and to change course now was thought to be a major 
error at this time, because of the extensive analysis work that her 
team of analysts had already prepared. Many others probably voted for 
33...b4?! for the very same reason! However, looking back now, it 
would appear that capturing Mr. Kasparov's Pawn sacrifice by 
33...Bxg3! would have been much better, leading into an extremely 
complicated ending. Although, there is no doubt that Mr. Kasparov was 
very well prepared to embark upon the ensuing ending that would have 
resulted after 33...Bxg3. It is certain that thorough analysis of 
this position will be completed by many chess analysts at the 
conclusion of this game.

34.Bf4  Bd4+  35.Kh1!!  ...

This profound and brilliant winning King move rates amongst the 
"top ten" as one of the most fascinating that I have ever 
seen in my entire chess career, which now spans over forty-five years!

35...b3!?

What else? This short analysis ends here, in the current postion. 
(August 30, 1999) 

SUMMARY:

A thorough move analysis and commentary will be completed at the 
conclusion of this game, and will be submitted to many chess 
organizations for publication.

After spending many hours of exhaustive analysis attempting to find 
"something" for Black in this current position, the 
conclusion has been reached (at this time) that Black's position has 
become untenable.

GM2505

PS - This article is COPYRIGHT protected. - August 30, 1999

Hi,

I cannot understand the following line in FAQ:

35. Kh1 b3
36. g4 Kd5
37. h6 b2
38. g5 e5
39. Bd2? etc.

Why do you think that Kasparov would play bad moves?

I see here:

39. Bg3!!

if you play 
39. ... e4?

black is lost after
40. g6!

the only move which is playable for black is:

39. ... Be7

but I would prefer white here!

Anyway Kasparov will move h6 very soon

perhaps
36. h6 directly

or 

36. g4 Kd5!?
37. h6

in order to paralyze the black bishop. if the h-pawn is two steps 
away from queening. the black bishop cannot leave the a1-h8 diagonal.

Cheers
Ulf

On Mon Aug 30 07:34:19, richard bean wrote:
> .
If he takes the pawn on b2 and sacrifices the bishop, he buys enough 
time for his pawns to push ahead and also frees up his rook 
temporarily.  Am I wrong? thanks

On Mon Aug 30 07:47:30, Arnaud wrote:
> On Mon Aug 30 07:42:06, Oddstaker wrote:
> > On Mon Aug 30 07:37:26, GM2505 wrote:
> > > Has anyone noticed the board postion? It is incorrect. White's King 
> > > should be on h1 and Black's b4 Pawn should now be on b3 (world team 
> > > last move 35...b3)
> > > 
> > > Has MSN been notified of this error?
> > 
> > It's not an error, they're just late. The webmaster got lazy over the 
> > weekend.
> 
> They are not late. They just came back to move 34. Perhaps we could 
> suggest that they go one more step back and allow us to play Bxg3 ! 
> he he.

Now that you mention that, I think Danny King should get blasted for 
denouncing Bxg3 as "trying to steal a gold tooth from an 
alligator's mouth". He and the other analysts all wanted b4 and 
now everyone wants to go back and play Bxg3.

The following is based on 36. ... Ne5 37. g5 Ng4, which didn't seem 
to be explored at all in Irena's analysis (or the FAQ?).

35. Kh1  b3
36. g4   Ne5  (if  37. Bxe5  dxe,    38. g5 d4 and black wins the 
pawn race with the d pawn!)
37. g5   Ng4       38. g6    b2
                   39. h6    Nf2+  whites 38-39 moves are transposable
                   40. Kg2   Ne4
                   41. g7    Nf6
                   42. Bg5   Kf7

38. Kg2 b2  39.g6 Ne3 40. h6 Gh5
                      40. g7 Kf7 

39. Kg3  ne3
40. Bxe3 Bxe3 
41. g6   Bh6

I expect this to fall apart pretty easily as I'm an unrated hack, so 
you pros might not want to even bother.  It sure was a bunch of fun 
to work on, though.  Heck, there's probably a typo or two that is an 
illegal move, so...

-Mark

some early results indicate we can play

36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e6 38.h6 Ne7 39.Rd1 e5
and stay alive.  (maybe)

you can use this in the FAQ if you like.

join the computer chess team
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

On Mon Aug 30 07:52:12, Oddstaker wrote:
> Now that you mention that, I think Danny King should get blasted for 
> denouncing Bxg3 as "trying to steal a gold tooth from an 
> alligator's mouth". He and the other analysts all wanted b4 and 
> now everyone wants to go back and play Bxg3. 

The 3 analysts were all perfectly entitled to recommend 33...b4 if 
they chose to. Danny, though, as moderator, is not supposed to take 
sides when there is a controversy. He must have known that many 
strong players were advocating 33...Bxg3 as our best chance. The 
moderator is supposed to present both sides of the argument and let 
the voters make up their minds.

I think the GK move of Kh1 shows he cares very
much about his connected passed pawns and playing the tactical way of 
moves with least negatives rather then worrying about end game 
positional theory.  He is the tactical genius after all.  Of course 
the b3 move was vital and obvious to at least keep his rook busy with 
our pawns and thus keep a balance to this tactical mess of an end 
game.  Please keep in mind that not getting our b pawn promoted right 
away or losing our first pawn to be promoted is no disaster as long 
as we are taking care of his final two pawns.  

With the above in mind I think we are going to see about 3 no better 
choice moves with all, or 3, analysts and the BBS agreeing on move 
choice.

 36. g4   Kd5  (the BBS is not agreed on this yet!)
 37  g5   e6   (I am still sorting out e5 here and wether it buys us 
more than lost tempo of not pushing pawn at his Bishop.  e5 does keep 
the bishop aimed at h8 and gives the Knight e5 as a landing square.  
However I do not see any lines that really need either of the two 
things I just mentioned ebcause of the kamikaze Knight move to Ne7 
which is the whole purpose of Kd5 and e6.  I will have a solid move 
choice come vote time)

 38. g6   Ne7  ( I think the 38. Bc1 is not GKs choice as GK has 
shown tactical to be his strategy and the connected passed pawns as 
his main tactical resource to make us forget about b2  or play it in 
error)

 and by then we have figured out how to stomp on his pawns I hope.

So the Kh1  totally tactical move makes us concentrate on his pawns 
and put ours on the back burner. Man GK is good ! To me it seems like 
GK is looking forward to an endgame around move 40 where his rook 
takes on our fortress of remaining pawns.  Again this Kh1 move means 
positional chess is now no longer the way to play so finding the 
moves and right order is no easy task in such an endgame against the 
likes of GK.  

This moves also makes me think part of his strategy is to make the 
casual vote have more teeth for the ones who do not see the coming 
pawn fortress end game hassles and can not understand why we just do 
not promote our pawns.  I.E. large casual vote for b2 at the wrong 
time.  I really admire the genius of GK that now he even presents us 
a "poisoned" pawn of our own color.

-----------------------------------------
the one b2 move that makes even remote sense

what about Bob  and his 36 g6 b2  37 g5 Nb4 ?

Of course this Bob character is trying to make everyone think about 
b2 as our next move and a Knight sacrifice for the Rook.  All fine 
and well except that the two connected pawns are way down the board 
as the Knight and promoting b pawn play out and we had better have an 
absolutely definitive move order in which GK loses his two pawns or a 
queen endgame drags our pain out as GK gleefully has tactical fun 
with the most powerful piece dictating all our moves for us until we 
lose.

On Mon Aug 30 07:44:30, Ulf wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I cannot understand the following line in FAQ:
> 
> 35. Kh1 b3
> 36. g4 Kd5
> 37. h6 b2
> 38. g5 e5
> 39. Bd2? etc.
> 
> Why do you think that Kasparov would play bad moves?
> 
> I see here:
> 
> 39. Bg3!!
> 
> if you play 
> 39. ... e4?
> 
> black is lost after
> 40. g6!
> 
> the only move which is playable for black is:
> 
> 39. ... Be7
> 
> but I would prefer white here!
Why not 39...Ne7!?

e.g.:
40.h7 Ng6
41.Kg2 Ke4, etc. and black OK?

F


> 
> Anyway Kasparov will move h6 very soon
> 
> perhaps
> 36. h6 directly
> 
> or 
> 
> 36. g4 Kd5!?
> 37. h6
> 
> in order to paralyze the black bishop. if the h-pawn is two steps 
> away from queening. the black bishop cannot leave the a1-h8 diagonal.
> 
> Cheers
> Ulf
> 
> 
>

On Mon Aug 30 08:06:06, Martin Sims wrote:
> On Mon Aug 30 07:52:12, Oddstaker wrote:
> > Now that you mention that, I think Danny King should get blasted for 
> > denouncing Bxg3 as "trying to steal a gold tooth from an 
> > alligator's mouth". He and the other analysts all wanted b4 and 
> > now everyone wants to go back and play Bxg3. 
> 
> The 3 analysts were all perfectly entitled to recommend 33...b4 if 
> they chose to. Danny, though, as moderator, is not supposed to take 
> sides when there is a controversy. He must have known that many 
> strong players were advocating 33...Bxg3 as our best chance. The 
> moderator is supposed to present both sides of the argument and let 
> the voters make up their minds.

Birds of a feather, flock together.

1. Is Gagne/GM School line dead?

FAQ gives 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e6 38.g6 Ne7 39.Rd1. I continue this: b2 
40.g7 Ke4 41.Bg5 Bxg7 42.Bxe7 which looks pretty hopeless.

2. What about 41...e4?

In 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e5 38.Bc1 Ne7 39.g6 b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 41.Kh2 - here 
latest FAQ only has Kc4 (which IM2429 has been pounding on). I 
thought 41...e4 was in an earlier FAQ; maybe I typed it into my copy 
after a suggestion here. Anyway it seems interesting. Here there are 
two questions:

a  42.Rxf5+ Be5+ 43.Rxe5+ Kxe5 44.g7 b1=Q 45.g8=Q Can we perpet?

b can White break through after 42.Kh3 Ke6 43.Kg4 Be5 (the "ter 
Haar tortoise" defense)?


anyway, I like the name...

36. g4 Kd5
37. g5 e6
38. h6 Ne7
39. Rd1 e5
40. Bc1 Ke4

Michel

On Mon Aug 30 08:21:48, Michel Gagne C.M. wrote:
> 36. g4 Kd5
> 37. g5 e6
> 38. h6 Ne7
> 39. Rd1 e5
> 40. Bc1 Ke4
40.Be3 or 40.h7 may be stronger for white...

F



> 
> Michel

On Mon Aug 30 08:21:48, Michel Gagne C.M. wrote:
> 36. g4 Kd5
> 37. g5 e6
> 38. h6 Ne7
> 39. Rd1 e5
> 40. Bc1 Ke4

yes, this works, see my post below.

(permission granted to include all of this post
in FAQ.)

the FAQ line goes 39...b2 40.Bxd6?? and claims
*White* is clearly winning.

after 40...Kxd6! 41.Rxd4+ Kc5 42.Rd1 Kc4
it's *Black* who's clearly winning!

even after 39...b2 40.h7 Ng6 41.Bxd6 Kc4
things are not so clear, which makes me
suspect ...Kc5 or ...Kc4 is OK earlier on.

So I change my mind.  I think ...Kd5 & ...e6
is still the best way to go.

Am I correct in gathering from other discussions that Kasparov played 
Kh1 and that Microsoft is asleep at the wheel? The board looks 
exactly the same as when I looked at it Friday evening ...

On Mon Aug 30 08:20:03, Ross Amann wrote:
> 1. Is Gagne/GM School line dead?
> 
> FAQ gives 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e6 38.g6 Ne7 39.Rd1. I continue this: b2 
> 40.g7 Ke4 41.Bg5 Bxg7 42.Bxe7 which looks pretty hopeless.

no, the 083001 FAQ line is 38.h6 Ne7 39.Rd1 b2?!
40.Bxd6?? - see my other post.

I don't think 40.g7 Kc4 presents significant
problems.

> 2. What about 41...e4?
> 
> In 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e5 38.Bc1 Ne7 39.g6 b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 41.Kh2 - here 
> latest FAQ only has Kc4 (which IM2429 has been pounding on). I 
> thought 41...e4 was in an earlier FAQ; maybe I typed it into my copy 
> after a suggestion here. Anyway it seems interesting. Here there are 
> two questions:
> 
> a  42.Rxf5+ Be5+ 43.Rxe5+ Kxe5 44.g7 b1=Q 45.g8=Q Can we perpet?
> 
> b can White break through after 42.Kh3 Ke6 43.Kg4 Be5 (the "ter 
> Haar tortoise" defense)?
> 
> 
> anyway, I like the name...

On Mon Aug 30 08:36:12, No Master 1400 wrote:
> Am I correct in gathering from other discussions that Kasparov played 
> Kh1 and that Microsoft is asleep at the wheel? The board looks 
> exactly the same as when I looked at it Friday evening ...
.

On Mon Aug 30 08:20:03, Ross Amann wrote:
> 1. Is Gagne/GM School line dead?
> 
> FAQ gives 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e6 38.g6 Ne7 39.Rd1. I continue this: b2 
> 40.g7 Ke4 41.Bg5 Bxg7 42.Bxe7 which looks pretty hopeless.
> 
> 2. What about 41...e4?
> 
> In 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e5 38.Bc1 Ne7 39.g6 b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 41.Kh2 - here 
> latest FAQ only has Kc4 (which IM2429 has been pounding on). I 
> thought 41...e4 was in an earlier FAQ; maybe I typed it into my copy 
> after a suggestion here. Anyway it seems interesting. Here there are 
> two questions:
> 
> a  42.Rxf5+ Be5+ 43.Rxe5+ Kxe5 44.g7 b1=Q 45.g8=Q Can we perpet?
> 
> b can White break through after 42.Kh3 Ke6 43.Kg4 Be5 (the "ter 
> Haar tortoise" defense)?
> 
> 
> anyway, I like the name...

Ross, I let my computer play out the GM school line
over night and it looked soild, but I lost the details
because my computer crashed.  In any case, Rd1 was not
sufficient to win for white.  The ending was R+B vs. B+4P so obviously
there is a way to get both pawns for our knight.
Our backward b-pawn was holding our bishop on c3, that
is b2,c3,b4, the rook was on b1 and white king on d1.
Maybe you can reconstruct or run on a faster computer.
Sorry, I lost the line.  Actually, it looked like
white would have to fight for a draw.

A draw would have been difficult for the world team
against the passed h pawn,but against 2 connented
 passed pawns?? the worlds position is lost.
  The analysts dropped the ball on this one!
  
  ~~~~~~~~end chang.......

40. Be3 Kc4 -+
40. h7 Ng6 41. Be3 Kc4 -+

Stong for Blacks both way.

Michel


On Mon Aug 30 08:26:46, Fritz wrote:
> On Mon Aug 30 08:21:48, Michel Gagne C.M. wrote:
> > 36. g4 Kd5
> > 37. g5 e6
> > 38. h6 Ne7
> > 39. Rd1 e5
> > 40. Bc1 Ke4
> 40.Be3 or 40.h7 may be stronger for white...
> 
> F
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Michel

(nt)

-
no other names accepted

On Mon Aug 30 08:23:39, IM2429 wrote:
> I failed twice, thats good news for us. 36...Kd5!? 37.g5 e5!? 38.Bc1 
> Ne7 still works!
> 
> 
> 39.g6 b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 41.Kh2 e4! (41...Kc4 loses) 42.Kh3 Ke6! (42...Kc4 
> loses) 43.h6 d5! (Otto Haar) 
> Black builds a firm position, that white is unable to break IMO. 
> Black probably has even the advantage here. I tried everything but 
> eventually failed. Black just stands firm, advances other b-pawn and 
> maybe d-pawn.
> 
> 
> Status after 36...Kd5 37.g5 e5 38.Bc1 Ne7, my opinions:
> 
> 39.Rf7 Ke6 40.Rf6+ Kd7! 41.Ba3 b2 42.Rf1 Be3 OK, I think it is, 
> someone could check  (note that 40...Kd5?? 41.h6 loses), 
> 
> 39.h6 e4 OK
> 
> 39.g6 b2 40.Bxb2 Bxb2 41.g7 Ng8! 42.Rf8 Nh6 OK
> 
> 39.g6 b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 41.Kh2 e4! 42.Kh3 Ke6! OK
> 
> 39.Ba3!? unclear, not analysed yet
> 
> 
> Someone posted that 39.Ba3 was scoring +0.80->+1.20, so I think 
> it should be checked, though I admit it doesnt look very logical.
> 
> Maybe Garry has something else in mind than 38.Bc1? 
> 
> Has any other bishop moves been analysed seriously? 
> 
> 38.Bg3!? with the idea Bh4 in some lines looks pretty logical but is 
> not mentioned in FAQ, I think Ill check that next.

...canadians? 

With all the respect that I have for SmartChess.

Michel


On Mon Aug 30 08:31:50, rwb@maths.uq.edu.au wrote:
> On Mon Aug 30 08:21:48, Michel Gagne C.M. wrote:
> > 36. g4 Kd5
> > 37. g5 e6
> > 38. h6 Ne7
> > 39. Rd1 e5
> > 40. Bc1 Ke4
> 
> yes, this works, see my post below.
> 
> (permission granted to include all of this post
> in FAQ.)
> 
> the FAQ line goes 39...b2 40.Bxd6?? and claims
> *White* is clearly winning.
> 
> after 40...Kxd6! 41.Rxd4+ Kc5 42.Rd1 Kc4
> it's *Black* who's clearly winning!
> 
> even after 39...b2 40.h7 Ng6 41.Bxd6 Kc4
> things are not so clear, which makes me
> suspect ...Kc5 or ...Kc4 is OK earlier on.
> 
> So I change my mind.  I think ...Kd5 & ...e6
> is still the best way to go.

Go visit my floating window links! And click on "message 
board" or on "move & analysts" and you will get a split 
frame content with a opinion pole in one frame and the msn windows in 
two of the others!

John
Please Click here Now: - http://try.at/chess

Also which do you prefer e5 or e6!

Did I dream Kasparov moving the King into the corner after the world 
checked him with the Bishop?

Buenas Dias, OUIJA line is alive and still drawing easily  at:

http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/kasparov-team/posts/bl/54367.asp

After 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e5 38.Bh2 Ne7 (I just noticed FAQ gives 38...e4 
here) 39.Bg1 Bc3 40.Bb6
 
now 40...e4!? immediately (an "anti-bishop" system) looks 
strong, for example

41.Bd8 e3 42.Bxe7 e2 43.Rb1 e1=Q+ 44.Rxe1 Bxe1 45.Bf6 Bh4 (46.h6 Bxg5)

I think that 41.g6 or 41.Kg2 should be met with the flexible 41...Ke6.

41.h6 Ke6 42.h7 Ng6 43.Kg2 d5 44.Bd8 b2 45.Bf6 d4 46.h8=Q Nxh8 
47.Bxh8 e3 48.Kf3 e2 49.Kxe2 d3+ 50.Kxd3 Bxh8 51.Kc2 Bg7 52.g6 Bf6 

NC/4FAQ

- Monarkh
http://www.stormloader.com/monarkh/KvW.html

On Mon Aug 30 08:20:03, Ross Amann wrote:

In 
36.g4 Kd5 
37.g5 e5 
38.Bc1 Ne7 
39.g6 b2 
40.Bg5 Nf5 
41.Kh2 - 

here latest FAQ only has Kc4 (which IM2429 has been pounding on). I 
thought 41...e4 was in an earlier FAQ; maybe I typed it into my copy 
after a suggestion here. Anyway it seems interesting. Here there are 
two questions:
 
b) can White break through after 42.Kh3 Ke6 43.Kg4 Be5 (the "ter 
Haar tortoise" defense)?

 
anyway, I like the name...

====================
After 

41....e4?!

Black should analyse the line beginning with

42. Rxf5!?  and not the "ter Haar tortoise" defense.

in the line 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e5 38.Bc1 Ne7 39.Ba3!

This move is subtle. It has two insidious ideas: 

A If Black K moves to c4 before b2, Bxd6 hits Ne7 and forces the N 
away from g6/f5 (since Rxf5 can be played with pawn on b3 and since 
White kept duo on g5/h5).

B If Black plays b2 first, Rb1 picks up the b2 pawn.

VERY DANGEROUS!

Preliminary analysis:

39.Ba3 e4 (Bc5?! 40.Bb2!) 40.Kh2 (40.Kg2 allows Ne3+ in some lines) 
Kc4 (e3 and b5 need a look) 41.Bxd6 Nd5 (box) 42.Rc1+ Nc3 (box) 
43.Ba3 Be3 44.g6 +- Bxc1 45.Bxc1

For all of us who did not come in the front door

http://www.zone.com/zzzz/news/zonenewsannoucement.asp


John
chess@cork.zzn.com

nt

Sooo. If GK moved 35. Kh1, which is an excellent move by the way, 
what was our suggested move.

Kh1 is much more difficult to create a check situation with our 
Knight.

From here...

35. Kh1  e5  is this the move we are making?  
36. Bd2  b3
37. g4   b2
38. g5   ????

36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e6!? 38.g6 Ne7 39.Rb1!? and now:

a) 39...Kc4 40.Bg5 Nf5 (40...Nxg6 41.hxg6 Bg7 42.Bc1+-)
41.h6 Kc3 (41...Nxh6 42.Bxh6 Kc3 43.Rc1+ +-) 42.Rc1+ Kb4 (42...Kd3 
43.Rd1 Kc2 44.Rxd4 Nxd4 45.Bc1!! (I really love this move) 45...Kxc1 
46.g7 b2 47.g8=Q b1=Q 48.Qg1+ Kc2 49.Qxb1+ Kxb1 50.h7 +-) 43.h7 b2 
44.Rb1 Kc3 45.Bc1 +-

b) 39...b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 (40...Nxg6 41.hxg6 Kc4 42.Bc1 bxc1=Q+ 43.Rxc1+ 
Kb5 44.Rd1 Be5 45.Rxd6) 41.h6 and now:

b1) 41...Kc4 42.h7

b11) 42...Kd3 43.Bc1 bxc1=Q (43...Kc2? 44.Bxb2! +-) 44.Rxc1 Be5 
(44...b5? 45.Rd1+) 45.Rc7 Bh8 46.Rxb7!? no hurry 46...d5 47.Rb8 Be5 
48.Rg8 Ne7/h4 49.g7 Ng6 50.h8=Q and white wins, the king is too close

b12) 42...b5 43.Bc1 bxc1=Q 44.Rxc1+ Kb4 (44...Kb3 45.Rc7! Bh8 46.Rc8 
Bd4 47.Rg8 Nh4/e7 48.g7 Ng6 49.Rb8! +-) 45.Rc7 Bh8 46.Rc8 Bd4 47.Rg8 
Nh4/e7 48.g7 Ng6 49.Kg2 d5 50.Kg3 Kb3 51.Kg4 +-


b2) 41...Ke4 42.h7 and now:

b21) 42...Kd3 - 41...Kc4

b22) 42...Ng3+ 43.Kh2!

b221) 43...Kf5 44.Be3 Be5 45.h8=Q Bxh8 46.Kxg3 Kxg6 47.Bd2(b4-a3xb2) 
Kf5 48.Kf3 +-

b222) 43...Nh5 44.Bh6! Bh8 (44...Kf5 45.g7!) 45.Rxb2! Kf5 (45...Bxb2 
46.g7 +-) 46.Rg2! +-


b3) 42...b5! 43.Bc1 bxc1 44.Rxc1 and now:

b31&2) 44...b4? 45.Rc4, 44...Kd3? 45.Rd1+

b33) 44...Be5 45.Rc7 Bh8 46.Rc8 Bd4 47.Rg8 Nh4/Ne7 48.g7 Ng6 49.h8=Q 
Nxh8 50.gxh8=Q Bxh8 51.Rxh8 Kd4 52.Rb8! Kc4 53.Kg2 b4 54.Kf2 Kc3 
55.Ke3 and white is just in time to win the game +-

b34) 44...Ng3+! 45.Kh2 Nh5 46.Rc7 Bh8 47.Rc8 Be5+! ( winning the 
crucial tempo) 48.Kg1 b4 (48...Nf4 and 48...Kf5 probably draw allso) 
49.h8=Q Bxh8 50.Rxh8 Ng7! 51.Rh7 Nf5 52.g7 Nxg7 53.Rxg7 Kd4 and a 
draw!



again a failure, and again I was already thinking I had refuted 
something, oh well back to the drawing board


I think this analysis highlights some points in GMSchool/Gagne 
variation


Maybe someone can find white win here? 39.Rb1 looks very promising, 
but eventually couldnt find white a win.


btw. the FAQ analysis about 37...e6 is -I dunno how to say it- quite 
bad

and many 37...e5 lines are allso still to be worked out


hard to say which move is better, after the new addition by Otto 
Haar, I would prefer 37...e5

nt

On Mon Aug 30 09:28:08, IM2429 wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e6!? 38.g6 Ne7 39.Rb1!? and now:
> 
> a) 39...Kc4 40.Bg5 Nf5 (40...Nxg6 41.hxg6 Bg7 42.Bc1+-)
> 41.h6 Kc3 (41...Nxh6 42.Bxh6 Kc3 43.Rc1+ +-) 42.Rc1+ Kb4 (42...Kd3 
> 43.Rd1 Kc2 44.Rxd4 Nxd4 45.Bc1!! (I really love this move) 45...Kxc1 
> 46.g7 b2 47.g8=Q b1=Q 48.Qg1+ Kc2 49.Qxb1+ Kxb1 50.h7 +-) 43.h7 b2 
> 44.Rb1 Kc3 45.Bc1 +-
> 
> b) 39...b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 (40...Nxg6 41.hxg6 Kc4 42.Bc1 bxc1=Q+ 43.Rxc1+ 
> Kb5 44.Rd1 Be5 45.Rxd6) 41.h6 and now:
> 
> b1) 41...Kc4 42.h7
> 
> b11) 42...Kd3 43.Bc1 bxc1=Q (43...Kc2? 44.Bxb2! +-) 44.Rxc1 Be5 
> (44...b5? 45.Rd1+) 45.Rc7 Bh8 46.Rxb7!? no hurry 46...d5 47.Rb8 Be5 
> 48.Rg8 Ne7/h4 49.g7 Ng6 50.h8=Q and white wins, the king is too close
> 
> b12) 42...b5 43.Bc1 bxc1=Q 44.Rxc1+ Kb4 (44...Kb3 45.Rc7! Bh8 46.Rc8 
> Bd4 47.Rg8 Nh4/e7 48.g7 Ng6 49.Rb8! +-) 45.Rc7 Bh8 46.Rc8 Bd4 47.Rg8 
> Nh4/e7 48.g7 Ng6 49.Kg2 d5 50.Kg3 Kb3 51.Kg4 +-
> 
> 
> b2) 41...Ke4 42.h7 and now:
> 
> b21) 42...Kd3 - 41...Kc4
> 
> b22) 42...Ng3+ 43.Kh2!
> 
> b221) 43...Kf5 44.Be3 Be5 45.h8=Q Bxh8 46.Kxg3 Kxg6 47.Bd2(b4-a3xb2) 
> Kf5 48.Kf3 +-
> 
> b222) 43...Nh5 44.Bh6! Bh8 (44...Kf5 45.g7!) 45.Rxb2! Kf5 (45...Bxb2 
> 46.g7 +-) 46.Rg2! +-
> 
> 
> b3) 42...b5! 43.Bc1 bxc1 44.Rxc1 and now:
> 
> b31&2) 44...b4? 45.Rc4, 44...Kd3? 45.Rd1+
> 
> b33) 44...Be5 45.Rc7 Bh8 46.Rc8 Bd4 47.Rg8 Nh4/Ne7 48.g7 Ng6 49.h8=Q 
> Nxh8 50.gxh8=Q Bxh8 51.Rxh8 Kd4 52.Rb8! Kc4 53.Kg2 b4 54.Kf2 Kc3 
> 55.Ke3 and white is just in time to win the game +-
> 
> b34) 44...Ng3+! 45.Kh2 Nh5 46.Rc7 Bh8 47.Rc8 Be5+! ( winning the 
> crucial tempo) 48.Kg1 b4 (48...Nf4 and 48...Kf5 probably draw allso) 
> 49.h8=Q Bxh8 50.Rxh8 Ng7! 51.Rh7 Nf5 52.g7 Nxg7 53.Rxg7 Kd4 and a 
> draw!
> 
> 
> 
> again a failure, and again I was already thinking I had refuted 
> something, oh well back to the drawing board
> 
> 
> I think this analysis highlights some points in GMSchool/Gagne 
> variation
> 
> 
> Maybe someone can find white win here? 39.Rb1 looks very promising, 
> but eventually couldnt find white a win.
> 
> 
> btw. the FAQ analysis about 37...e6 is -I dunno how to say it- quite 
> bad
> 
> and many 37...e5 lines are allso still to be worked out
> 
> 
> hard to say which move is better, after the new addition by Otto 
> Haar, I would prefer 37...e5

On Mon Aug 30 09:28:08, IM2429 wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e6!? 38.g6 Ne7 39.Rb1!? and now:
> 
> a) 39...Kc4 40.Bg5 Nf5 (40...Nxg6 41.hxg6 Bg7 42.Bc1+-)
> 41.h6 Kc3 (41...Nxh6 42.Bxh6 Kc3 43.Rc1+ +-) 42.Rc1+ Kb4 (42...Kd3 
> 43.Rd1 Kc2 44.Rxd4 Nxd4 45.Bc1!! (I really love this move) 45...Kxc1 
> 46.g7 b2 47.g8=Q b1=Q 48.Qg1+ Kc2 49.Qxb1+ Kxb1 50.h7 +-) 43.h7 b2 
> 44.Rb1 Kc3 45.Bc1 +-
> 
> b) 39...b2 40.Bg5 Nf5 (40...Nxg6 41.hxg6 Kc4 42.Bc1 bxc1=Q+ 43.Rxc1+ 
> Kb5 44.Rd1 Be5 45.Rxd6) 41.h6 and now:
> 
> b1) 41...Kc4 42.h7
> 
> b11) 42...Kd3 43.Bc1 bxc1=Q (43...Kc2? 44.Bxb2! +-) 44.Rxc1 Be5 
> (44...b5? 45.Rd1+) 45.Rc7 Bh8 46.Rxb7!? no hurry 46...d5 47.Rb8 Be5 
> 48.Rg8 Ne7/h4 49.g7 Ng6 50.h8=Q and white wins, the king is too close
> 
> b12) 42...b5 43.Bc1 bxc1=Q 44.Rxc1+ Kb4 (44...Kb3 45.Rc7! Bh8 46.Rc8 
> Bd4 47.Rg8 Nh4/e7 48.g7 Ng6 49.Rb8! +-) 45.Rc7 Bh8 46.Rc8 Bd4 47.Rg8 
> Nh4/e7 48.g7 Ng6 49.Kg2 d5 50.Kg3 Kb3 51.Kg4 +-
> 
> 
> b2) 41...Ke4 42.h7 and now:

42...Kf3, copying from crafty's full 17ply PV - draw.

Yours sincerely,

...e6 fan.

join the computer chess team...
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2442/

36.g4 Kd5 37.g5 e6! 38.g6 Ne7 39.Bh6. Then
39...Nf5 40.Bf8 threatening h6 and g7 - ok for Black?

(my apologies, I couldn't see the GM site)

Also IMO Black can play Nd8 and Ne6 to give the knight for the two 
pawns at g7, as I posted below.

I must shut down. See you in 4 hours. Bye...

Saemisch

Gary did not play Kh1.

36 g4  Nb4  IMMEDIATELY (becauseof Bg3 threat in
            earlier ..b2 variation

37 g5 Nd3

38 g6 Nf2+

39 Kg2 Ng4 [or ..Ne4..Nf6 stopped the pawns/..Nc3 )

SEEMS BLACK IS WINNING...

On Tue Aug 31 01:43:13, Steve B. wrote:
> On Tue Aug 31 01:09:07, IM2429 wrote:
> > ...do not vote 36...Kd5, it most probably loses immediately to Bc1, 
> > sac, push pawns plan. King better stay closer to the pawns. VOTE 
> > instead 36...b2, maybe it has some kind of chance to succeed, e.g. 
> > Suttles plan 37...Bc3. Or something that isnt seen yet. 36...b2 ties 
> > rook to the first rank and stops Bc1. What king does at d5 after 
> > all?? Maybe NOTHING.
> > 
> > Just my opinion
> > 
> > IM2429
> 
> Is there any saving grace with 36... b2?  IMHO that line is not 
for example 37...Bc3, maybe it loses, but what doesnt??

> hopeful, either.  If anyone can shoot a hole in this line and prove 
> me wrong, that would make my day.  However White appears to hold all 
> the cards and Black is running on empty.
> 
> 36. g4     b2
> 37. g5     Nb4
> 38. g6     Nd3
> 39. h6     NxBf4
> 
> White is determined to sac his Bishop and gain positional leverage, 
> if not from c1 then from f4.
> 
> 40. g7     Kf7
> 41. RxNf4  Bf6
> 42. Rf1    Kg8
> 43. Rg1    Bg5
> 
> Black is fighting a rear-guard action and is fast running out of 
> options.
> 
> 44. h7+    Kxh7
> 45. g8Q+   KxQg8
> 46. RxBg5+ Kf7
> 47. Rb5    ...
> 
> Black resigns, 1-0
> 
> Please tell me I'm wrong.
> 
> Regards, Steve B.

By Kf7 to get in front of his pawns. Anything wrong with that?

On Tue Aug 31 13:21:21, Irina Screwed Us!  (MUST READ) wrote:
> I can't believe you dipshits listened to her.  Unbelieveable.  We 
> should've moved the pawn... so obvious.  Trap the rook.  But now we 
> are totally screwed.

If you think that, then you didn't read Danny King's commentary.
> 
> How could you listen to that idiot?

If you don't know that, you must be new here.  

>Not to mention she looks like a 
> horse.

If you can't tell the difference, you must be an inbred country boy 
with some four-legged girlfriends.


>We are mated within 10 moves.

If you can't show us how, then you might as well substitute 
"White is" for "we are."  It's more encouraging and 
no less informative.

.